BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:46 PM

No, Spaw, you can't control it. And maybe I would be hard pressed to define it as well. But the Mudcat isn't the real world. It's a website owned by Max, and it exists because he has decided that it will. He can just as easily decide that it won't exist.

So I guess what I'm most concerned with is what happens when the people who post here become such a pain in the ass for him, as has happened on several occasions in just in the few months since I've been here, that he starts questioning whether or not he want's to continue to put his time, energies, and money into keeping it going.

Maybe, every time we post, we shouldn't be thinking, "is this going to hurt the person I'm writing it to". Maybe we should be thinking, is this going to cause a pain in the ass for Max.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:49 PM

Hmmm...the sheer volume of stuff going in here must be enough to boggle the mind. How much of Max's time and energy is eaten up by maintaining this site, I wonder?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:05 PM

Quote: I think that a mature bunch of civilized people can communicate in a way that doesn't involve mean spirited behavior. Enquote

I think that statement/belief assumes that this forum is the 'normal' means of communication and of course, it is not. In one's own home, you can guide, even govern, how communication develops- and when you give up on somebody, out they go.

Here on this forum, we are a diverse group with no control over or foreknowledge of people who read or post. All it takes is one person who is a stirrer and it will send a number of us into a spin. I admit I'm one of them. And I suppose a great deal of my outrage often stems from the judgment that one 'shouldn't' be allowed to do or say that. It takes me quite awhile before I come again to the realization that control is impossible.

The reason I don't welcome mav (still say there's nothing big about him- although I'm willing to have my mind changed) is not because he is right wing, it is because he has been nasty and a bully. I've said in previous threads that I have a brother (4 brothers- 3 are great) who has always handled conflict or differences of opinion in that same way. He outshouts any attempts at discussion or protest. That is what mav does too. That's why I wouldn't have mav in my home in his present mode but hey, if everyone else wants him here, no problem. I do have an 'off' button.

I still say that I hope mav comes to realize that the fun here is not conflict but the sharing of community. And he may. Others have done it. In which case I will be happy to welcome him.

As for the p.p.post, I take it as satirical- there's really no other way to take it, imo, the same as if we had a thread 'welcoming' Josef Stalin or Idi Amin or George Custer or Lizzie Borden. However, if my parents or other loved ones had died at the hands of or through the policies of any of those people or even if I were feeling someone else's pain, I might well have a different reaction.

I do think starting the second pp post after being specifically asked not to use that term again was an act of mean-spiritedness. But some of us do react badly in the presence of hurting people, especially when our reaction is scorn at their taking it literally.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Skeptic
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:11 PM

Carol,

Max sets the rules. Based on his beliefs, values, perceptions and whims. Asking that people "consider Max" before posting because he might shut the forums down is preaching prior restraint.

I can apprecaite your concern but if you value free speech, you take the good with the bad and the mediocre.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:19 PM

HEY!!! Lizzie Border has been proven innocent! I read from new scientific datd, it showed that the maid (whom the father was having an affair with) killed them.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:22 PM

The first reason for everything I do is always the same.

THE POINT OF THIS WEB SITE IS HAPPINESS

If I can't get it or deliver it, there is no point, and POOF it's gone.

Keep it light, take it easy, relax, enjoy your stay, and just be happy.

--Max

August 7, 2000

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:39 PM

Well there ya' go Carol. I have no idea whether Max is happy or not, but as he rarely gets into these things, he may not even be aware of it.

I think Mav is happy. I'm happy. Ebbie, Matt, and John seem happy. Just relax and enjoy the parts that make you happy. This one doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Would you like me to link one that was the possibly the worst?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:56 PM

Spaw, since I've been a member here, every single time things have escalated into an out of control situation on the Mudcat, Max has had to step in and pull us back into line. I know you've seen it as well as me, because you've posted to the threads in which everyone apologizes to Max for being such a pain in the ass.

As I said before, it is possible for us to express our viewpoints, whatever they may be, in a way that does not escalate into a flame war. I don't understand why people are being so glib about this. It just isn't necessary for us to get to the point where Max ends up having to step in.

And do you know which part embarasses me the most? Max is only half our age. But he keeps having to come in and act like the grownup while we act like a bunch of children.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:09 PM

...and what I should have said, but forgot, is - do you wait until you have a full blown flame war of the first order going before you start acting like a grownup, or do you start before things get to that point?

People keep telling me "it's not so bad, we've had worse". Well, those flame wars started out just like this one. The only difference is, with those ones, nobody changed their behavior until things were totally out of control. Why wait until things get to that point?

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:10 PM

'Spaw, I think a link might be useful here, yes.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:12 PM

"Max is only half our age. But he keeps having to come in and act like the grownup while we act like a bunch of children."

Ah but I was older then, I'm so much younger now.

(That's not always an improvement...)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:24 PM

LOL, Matt!

I had even forgotten there was a maid. How about linking us to your source? I wonder if Ms. Borden rests easier these days?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:35 PM

Yes McGrath, and you can be as young as I, if like a crab you could crawl backward...

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Skeptic
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:19 PM

Spaw,

Happy? That was supposed to make me happy. I thought it was building up karma to atone for future sins (of which many are planned)

Ebbie,

As I spent a lot of time debating mav, I have to disagree in part. After a rocky start, we ended up having a fairly civil discussion with some teasing from both sides.

However, it really does take more than one to have a flame war. And virtual bullies are easy to deal with and avoid.

Carol,

I suspect that the reason Max can step in is that he isn't involved in all this and doesn?t develop a personal stake in the outcome. And does he step in because he gets a lot of PM's?

Age brings wrinkles and gray hair, not (necessarily) wisdom, judgement or tolerance. Of which virtual examples abound.

Matt R,

Does sort of screw up the poem though.

"The Borden's maid took and ax and gave her employer 40 whacks......." or "You can't chop your employer up in Massachusetts ....."

No, I can't see it.

In the interests of poetry and song, I say we get a court to declare that she did do it, no matter what the evidence says.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:35 PM

Yeah, maybe you could send her down to Texas, the home of wrongly-convicted deathrow inmates. Ah, but that's another thread...

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:41 PM

Skeptic, your posting history says you joined in October. That may mean you missed the big flame war we had here in August. And I've read threads from some of the previous flame wars. The difference between a flame war and free speech, is with a flame war, people are attacking each other all over the Mudcat.

It starts with one thread. Then it spreads to another thread. Then two more threads are started to protest the first two. Then people are fighting all over the place. And they are vicious about it. And they begin to make personal threats. And members go underground. And Max gets PMs about it. Then he steps in and says enough.

There is no lack of wisdom in such a move under those circumstances. It's true that we are not at that point right now. But I've seen things escalate the way they have been the last few days and end up at that point. I don't see why we have to get to that point in the first place. If we take care with our behavior when a flame war is in the very early stages, as this one is, we can avoid getting to that point. It's kind of like the enviornment. Don't wait until it's too late to take good care of it.

When you guys were having fun slinging stuff at each other in the Bush threads, no harm was being done. You were in agreement about what you were there for. But the attacks have spread to other kinds of threads now, including welcome threads. That's the beginning of when things get out of control.

Perhaps you should check out some of the earlier flame war threads so you can see how these things evolve. I'm sure Spaw would be happy to supply you with a few links.

You seem like a level headed sort of person to me. I think you can probably understand why it's better for a lot of people if we don't get to the point where Max needs to step in.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:15 PM

Carol, I applaud what you are trying to do, but I don't think flamers can be stopped by telling them off in a thread. Someone with that turn of mind is more likely to take it as an encouragement (as happened with the starting of the Pol Pot two thread) as he/she seems to be craving attention. Ignoring the undesired behaviour in many cases leads to the extinction of that behaviour, and it this situation it's perfectly safe to ignore it. That's what I'm doing. (..until now... :0] )

Noreen

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:46 PM

Noreen, I respect your approach. I think it's a good approach to take with flamers, particularly anonymous ones. I'm actually not adressing anonymous flamers in most of the posts I've been making lately.

I'm addressing Mudcat members whom I ordinarily respect and think of as friends. I'm asking them not to participate in, encourage, or escalate a flame war. I think sometimes we forget how the old flame wars happened. Sometimes there are anonymous flamers involved, but most of the flaming is done by those whom we normally think of as people we know and respect.

What I don't understand is why these people would have a problem with me asking them not to participate in, encourage, or escalate a flame war. Many friendships have been ruined by flame wars.

Ignoring the undesired behaviour in many cases leads to the extinction of that behaviour

I ignored the behavior last night when I went to bed. (Just as several people asked me to.) I woke up to two new threads dealing with Pol Pot, and during the course of the day while I was trying to ignore it, some more have appeared. So I don't think ignoring it was working.

So I am asking, once again, for people to try to be mindful of the long term consequences of their actions in this forum. I think that the Mudcat, and we, will benefit from it.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:56 PM

They generally take awhile to run their course Carol, but do you realize that you are the main thing prolonging this one at the moment? No flaming going on elsewhere....The Bushwhacked Players are happy.....You keep coming back again and again here and on the other pp thread and its to you people are responding and prolonging this thing.

Let it go.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 12:07 AM

I'm sorry Spaw. I don't agree. See my post above. While I was ignoring this thing, new threads were proliferating. Things have slowed down a lot since I started posting again.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 12:14 AM

Things have slowed down a lot since I started posting again.

...and maybe that's because I've become the target now. So if I have to take a few shots to stop another flame war, I guess that's what I'm going to do.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 12:49 AM

I just want to say one more thing all by myself here at the bottom of this thread.

Seeing this kind of stuff in the Mudcat really breaks my heart.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:33 AM

Carol, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. If you keep beating this dead horse, someone IS going to really get started and then you may see a real flame war. Last August was still mild compared to the ones I sent you links to; I hope you gave even one of those a thorough read.

Ignoring them will only work for you if you truly do ignore them. Obviously you are having a problem doing this and so it gets perpetuated.

Max is a big boy and can speak for himself, so why don't you let it go and let it die, as it will?

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:40 AM

Very good advice.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:59 AM

Sorry kat/katlaughing, you're the one who's perpetuating it now. And I don't agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 04:02 AM

LOL....that is quite a joke...and here I go, again!

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 07:47 AM

Carol and Kat: Why don't you flip a coin? Winner gets to make the last post. Then this thread can be allowed to die.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Skeptic
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 09:12 PM

I vote we let Spaw make the last post.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 10:57 PM

or i could....

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 02:44 PM

I have read some crap in my time, but this thread takes the cake. Just by its existence you feed the monster. Carol, you are a wonderful member of this community and I understand your heartache, but the simple psychological fact is that response is what these people crave. The really devoted ones know that if you ignore the first one, then they will start a second or third, because they eventually will get someone to react. And that is what they crave. I used to berate people to ignore, and starve these assholes. But there is always some good hearted person that just has to complain. So I have just taken to ignoring because I know that eventually it will go away. I saw the name Pol Pot, ignored the thread and moved on. Until I scanned this one, I had no idea who or what MAV was. Now I figure I will just ignore this person.

In short, be dismayed if you want, boycott if you must, ....... but in the end you end up hurting this place more that helping. Have you ever noticed that the really great Mudcatters never leave, and that there are more each year. But the jerks are always a temporary thing. Some have a little more staying power, but eventually they always leave. Remember Gargoyle?

All the best,

Big Mick, who is exhausted from 9 straight days of multiple gigs daily.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 03:10 PM

Big Mick,

Since you weren't reading this stuff as it was unfolding, I can understand how you would be confused about what happened.

All I can say is that we had a situation that was moving rapidly toward a flame war. I did what I felt I needed to do as a responsible member of this community. Call it conscious activism if you want. I can't prove that my efforts had any bearing on the result. All I know is, the flame war (albeit still in its infancy) ended.

If something like that ever happens again (and I have no doubt that it will), I will do just the same as I did in this case. I will make a pain in the ass of myself until people get tired of me and they go do something constructive.

I'm sure an activist like yourself wouldn't want me to do any less.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 03:57 PM

Carol, I really do understand your feelings. I believe in activism, in fact have made a life of it. With all due respect, flamers don't leave because of someone being upset with them. They leave when they are bored because no one reacts to them. Having said that, if this is the path you feel you must follow then follow it you must. I may think it misguided, but that is simply my opinion. And I will continue to look forward to your posts.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 04:10 PM

Thank you Big Mick. I can see that we will have to agree to disagree about how to handle these situations. As long as what I do appears to get good results, I will continue to do it. But I understand that you may not agree with it.

Best wishes,

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 09:53 PM

Using the facility we've got in this ingenious place for Personal Messages is maybe a better way to advise each other to cool it, rather than posting on open threads. And I know I've just posted that on an open thread, but it's general point that bears repetition.