Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info

Subject: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:15 PM

Hi. One of my students has a "dull finish" Fender acoustic, and although he loves the guitar, he wishes it had a gloss finish on the neck at least. He wanted to know if he can put some polish on the neck and buff it up to play faster. For that matter he also asked about using polish (to put a bit of a sheen on the top, back and sides) on the rest of the guitar. 'Fraid I don't have a clue how to deal with those "flat laquer" finishes. Is it even possible to put a bit of a shine on them, and if so, with what?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Rick

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: Justa Picker
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:19 PM

Oh Catspaw, where art thou?

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:27 PM

Right here........

As far as the back of the neck goes, sure. Rick, do you recall the paste wax/0000 steel wool bit? Works great. Its a way of bringing out some shine, but remember that the finish has an agent in it to keep it from glossing.

Gotta' go get Michael at school an take him to get his glasses fixed, but I'll be back later.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:43 PM

oh gods... don't! Flat finishes are so much nicer than the 'laminated' high gloss look...

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: Bluebelle
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 04:31 PM

I'm sure you meant to say your like of flat finishes is in your opinion.

Putting a gloss finish on the guitar will most likely change the sound. Sanding it lightly with sandpaper of the very finest grit, then using a soft cloth to apply a coat of tung oil, will give it a nice look and dry to a hard finish. Two or three coats will give it added protection, as well, just be sure to let each coat dry thoroughly.

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 05:09 PM

What else would I be talking about, except my opinion??? Same as everybody else... Why overstate the obvious?

Yer right, it's gonna change the sound alot... It's gonna muffle parts of it, and really bring out the high end no? Isn't that the gist of the physics of it?

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: bigchuck
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 06:52 PM

IMHO, Tung Oil does not harden enough to be a good guitar finish and will definitely deaden the sound. Martin satin finishes will shine up real nice with a bit of automotive rubbing compound or Maguire's # 7, or even plain old skin and cloth applied over time, although they won't get a true gloss. Don't be afraid to try.
Sandy (shade tree luthier)

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 11:55 PM

Rick,

I have a gloss finish on one guitar and flat finish on my banjo. They both stick to my hands when its hot and I'm perspiring. Take a page out of the pool room bible. A little baby powder makes all the diff when sliding a pool cue or a banjo neck along the palm of your hand. No amount of wax or steel wool is gonna help.

Don

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 12:26 AM

I tend to agree with Don......But I read your original question two ways.......Do they not like the look? The feel? Or do they just want "faster?" Not being smart here Rick, but it makes a difference ..... Is the neck finish......I dunno' what word I'm looking for here, but let's say rough? Some satins, because of the lo-gloss additive and the lack of extensive buffing have an odd kind of "rough" feel. Not rough in the classis sense, but I can't think of a better word. If that's the case, you can improve it. If its just a faster case, then Don has a good point.

As far as the rest of the instrument, because of the composition of the finish, you can't get it to buff to a high gloss with any normal methods. The additive that makes its satin precludes that. You can of course go through a sanding (not necessarily to bare wood and relacquer it and finish it off as you would with any hi-gloss finish. You need to go down enough so as not to add additional thickness which will affect the sound.

And ...... Once again for the record, please check at Frank Ford's wonderful Frets.com for info on satin versus hi-gloss finishes which is located here. If you want to skip it, at least read this section:

Some instruments are finished with a flat, low gloss, or satin lacquer. The dull or satin finish is precisely the same material as its glossy counterpart; it just has a chemical additive to make it dry with a particular degree of sheen. Satin or flat finishes are frequently used on lesser expensive models because they save labor, requiring no final leveling and polishing. Some manufacturers use a satin finish on the neck, and gloss on the body. The low gloss finish is quite popular for use in performance because it doesn't reflect stage lighting. Lots of players simply prefer the look, too.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: RichM
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 05:30 AM

I once took the finish off the neck of a Martin D35, right down to the stain.
. Used very fine steel wool and carnauba-based car wax to seal it. That was a damn fine, very playable neck! Felt like satin.
Looked ok too...like an upright bass.
Would I do it again? No, but that's 'cause I don't do drastic things to my better instruments anymore.

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From:
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 07:39 AM

My soon-not-to-be-lamented LaPatrie had a somewhat rough neck when I got it but by playing it the neck is getting smoothed out (like the proverbial well-polished tool handle). The resulting smooth finish is much more relaible than any gloss I know. A lot of them are smooth but when your hand is sweating they tend to go into a slide-stick cycle so your hand (or thumb, if you play like me) is sort-of skipping over the back.

Listen to Don!

Murry

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 07:55 AM

Ahhh, very interesting. Thanks folks. I'll bring this thread back over the next couple of days 'cause the more info the better.

I'll advise my student simply by giving him a print out of this, but one other question...this one for my OWN edification: What actually happens to a flat finish over the years? Does the instrument turn colour like the regular gloss finish seems to (ignore syntax...it's late)?

Catspaw, can you elaborate on the "paste wax 0000grit" whatever?

Sandy, does automotive rubbing compound come in different grades (or something like that?)

Rich, I know what you mean about not messing with the finer instruments. I once drilled a pickup jack hole in a 00-18, and regretted it.

Tell me a bit about tung oil. Is there a consensus on whether it DOES or doesn't harden. My student is primarily talking about the NECK of his Fender.

One of the things I might do is get a piece of wood..put a flat laquer finish on it and then try EACH method suggested.

Thanks again

Rick

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: DonMeixner
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 08:11 AM

Tung oil will harden with the help of some added dryers. I can't swear that Japan Dryer will work with Tung Oil but thats the idea of the stuff you want to use. Tung Oil requires heat made of friction to seal it self on the wood. I have a fretless banjo I made years ago with a birch neck and a Tung Oil finish. It is the best neck I ever built and the best finish I ever applied. Its plenty hard and durable as well.

I find necks get sticky when people use unappropriate cleaners on them. Cleaners not to use include anything with alcohol, petroleum distillate, xylene, benzine, Carbon Tet, amonia or chlorine.

That leaves extremely sparse mild soap and water,( Some will quail at this thought but it is very benign and the word is SPARSE.) Or a cleaner designed specifically for finished wood products. Like....GASP!.... Pledge. Use it only as a cleaner not as a finish protection. I use plain old Johnson's Paste on my guitars for the bodies. I use fingerboard dressing for the board and bridge. Some instrument repair people suggest trumpet valve oil on the board and bridge, others don't, I have no opinion either way. As for the neck, I clean them and I use any bodies good furniture spray, wipe it down and play it. Friction will clean alot off the neck providing my hands are clean and dry to start.

Don

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 08:20 AM

Just a suggestion but;

Just maybe he ought to wait until he's played the thing at a gig or jam where he's gotten a little of that sweat that accompanies the nerves.

He may come to love that satin as opposed to the squeegee, squeeking, sticking action of a wet hand on a glossy (or waxed) neck

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 08:27 AM

I don't think you'll get a faster neck by making it glossier and/or applying polish -- in fact, most polishes are waxy, which can stick to your thumb and slow you down. When I occasionally polish my gloss-finished guitars, I never polish the neck, for that reason. I find myself wondering whether your student is looking for a short-cut that doesn't exist (we've all done that from time to time, hoping that changes in our gear will make up for a lack of practice or patience). I think the best way to make the neck smoother and more fluid is just to play a lot -- the neck gets acclimated to your hand, and your hand gets accustomed to the neck.

Satin finishes are cheaper and quicker, but there are some damn fine guitars that have them -- my Lowden for one (in fact, I don't think Lowden even offers a gloss finish on any of his guitars). I never polish the Lowden, and it never looks like it needs polishing; wiping it down with a slightly damp rag is all I ever need to do. Depends on the instrument, but I really like the look of a nice satin finish. Also, I think they're less likely to "check" than gloss finishes -- or if they do check, I think it's less obvious.

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: Gary T
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 09:10 AM

My new satin finish guitar recommends cleaning with window cleaner applied to a rag (not sprayed onto the guitar itself) and warns to never wax the top as it will deaden the resonance of the wood. I'd be very circumspect about applying anything that could leave a coating or residue on the top.

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: bigchuck
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 09:21 AM

Rick, auto compounds do come in varying grits. Turtle Wax offers both a rubbing compound and a polishing compound. For a finish thats already been rubbed to some extent, I think the polishing compound would be best, as it is less abrasive. It won't polish any better than Spaw's suggested paste wax/0000 steel wool, but might be a bit faster. I've used all of the suggested methods on one instrument or another with good results, but I like the various Meguier's "Mirror Glaze" compounds the best. They are available mail order from Stewart-Macdonald, but any auto parts store should have something similar.
Sandy

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 10:42 AM

Hi Sandy........The Meguire's Products have long been an auto industry favorite, especially among the rodder set.....GREAT stuff. The buffing compound is a superior product leaving no swirl marks in the finish.

Little known fact: The finest grade of most polishing (not buffing) compounds is generally white and has just slightly more abrasiveness that Colgate toothpaste. That's not a joke, its the truth and you CAN USE most cream toothpastes as a polishing compound. It is a bit less abrasive but does a pretty fair job. Not only that but you'll have a sweet smelling guitar............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 01:28 PM

Yeah, but can you use the auto buffing compound on your teeth?

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 01:36 PM

Only if you've painted your teeth metalflake red.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 01:52 PM

Only the top ones -- it goes nicely with the natural shade of green on the bottom. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Rick needs some 'Guitar finish' info
From: Songster Bob
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 02:05 PM

Another choice for the neck is to sand it smooth, down to the wood, and then French polish it. That's basically what's done to the necks on fiddles and basses (someone mentioned a bass-like neck earlier). But even bare wood and a very light wax coat (or even tung oil) can help the "speed" of a neck.

As for the body, the folks who say you can't polish it to gloss are right, since it's made not to polish up that way. But the matte finishes also give you some "talk" as sleeves brush across 'em as you play, and many players don't like that. I recommend adding a John Pearse armrest if you get too much of that "shushhhh" sound from your sleeves. Lifting the arm off the top is good for the sound anyway, and the extra effect of avoiding most of that sound can be very nice.

Bob C.