Never heard of Alex Campbell

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 15 - 04:17 AM

"you also said he isolated himself.I am agreeing with you"
In context, I said that after attempting to draw together those who he believed shared his concerns for what was happening in the revival, he went off and worked with people who did.
I also said I criticised him when I was asked to speak at his symposium, I now understand why he did so and agree with his reasons - you missed that bit out.
"you have called me a talentless moron and accused me of making it up insinuating that i am a liar."
You have threatened me with violence - now that's what I call "overstepping the mark"
We all say things we regret in anger - you have a habit, with your tendency to stalk, to get up my nose far too often.
Leave it Dick - I have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Mar 15 - 04:16 AM

no Jim.
you have decided quite arbitrarily that you are going to decide what folk music is and what standards are to be applied.
furthermore you are regularly bloody rude to anyone who disagrees with you. Your description of Jez Lowe as a cabaret singer was insulting beyond measure. Derek Brimstone 's folk guitar and banjo style would stand alongside and bear comparison with any of the Seegers, not just Peggy. That measure of accomplishment in an age when tuition was not readily available required dedication beyond belief. facile...lets see you attempt that sort of facility!

serious discussion of Ewan MacColl....the only person blocking it is you. anything less than reverential awe, trying to understand him as a human, who achieved much - but had feet of clay like the rest of us and you flare up.

now this thread happens to be about a guy who inspired many other people and much creative endeavour on the folk scene - Alex Campbell.

you want to talk on your favourite subject - very simple. start a thread entitled Ewan Macoll- no criticism allowed!

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Mar 15 - 03:59 AM

I have not castigated anyone, I have told the truth, you also said he isolated himself.I am agreeing with you
I have pointed out lots of times what a fine songwriter MacColl was, Peggy Seeger praised one of Jez Lowes songs, calling it brilliant, but had not been acquainted with his work up until that point, that reinforces my statement that she had never heard of Jez Lowe in 1986 and was not familiar with one of the most talented and popular songwriters on the uk folk scene, and had not heard of him until 2006. you have called me a talentless moron and accused me of making it up insinuating that i am a liar.
there are laws of libel, jim, you have overstepped the mark.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 15 - 03:31 AM

"Now we can add Jez Lowe to that growing list."
No we haven't
As far as I can see, Jez Lowe does what he does well - he has chosen to perform certain songs in a certain manner, which, as far as I can see, has nothing to do with folk song as I understand it.
Back in th eighties the 'folk' scene proliferated with wannabe stand-up comedians, some good, some bad, but all strutting their stuff in folk clubs until they were taken up by the media and given their own shows - nothing to do with folk song as I understand it.
Dick has been castigating MacColl for "isolating himself - if he did, it was by sticking with folk song and writing songs that were using recognisable styles and forms to produce new songs.
He never in his life stopped advocating the importance of folk songs and art created by working people, that was what 'The Song Carriers' was about, thet was what 'The Radio Ballads' were about, that was what everything we did in the Critics Group was about.
The forays I have taken into the English club scene over the last decade or so have indicated that it has become extremely difficult to find the music I believe to be 'folk' in the clubs.
The music that drew me into the revival fifty odd years ago seems only to survive in a small handful of clubs, it's not a factor any more, it certainly#y is no longer the driving force that it was.
This argument, and all the others that have become no-go areas, are seldom about folk music any more - you can't even raise the music and its importance any more without being howled down (try starting a "what constitutes folk song" thread and see what happens).
Talking about folk song is a no go area, talking about standards is the same
Talking about somebody who devoted hi life to understanding folk song and went to great lengths to develop a greater understand of folk song and a technique that might be used to improve their performance has proved virtually impossible - thirty years after his death, you'd rather talk about his trousers or how tall he was.
To accuse me of taking a pop at Jez Lowe, yet you appear to have made yourself a part of blocking any serious discussion on MacColl and his work and ideas - not even to consider and reject them - now that's what I call insulting someone.         
The folk scene (in England at least - can't talk about Scotland, seems to have pulled itself up from its roots and gone somewhere else and it is considered "isolationist" not to have gone with it.
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 11 Mar 15 - 03:02 AM

Actually Don you are telling me something new rather than reminding me of the Campbell – Fureys night as I always thought that they shared equal billing; however I was at that time very much a junior member of the committee having only been invited aboard a few months earlier after my club, The Royal Turf at Felling, had closed and I was still serving my apprenticeship. The Gilroy man has regaled me with that story many times since and it was my recollection that Alex, although I enjoyed most of his performance, divided the audience as some, as I stated earlier, had come expecting traditional song and many had come to see The Fureys. I will take issue regarding them being unknown for while it was some years prior to them hitting the dizzy heights that they were to achieve they were massive on the folk scene at that time, especially among the younger generation. We booked them twice in the previous two years at the aforementioned Royal Turf, to capacity crowds, and they were number one favourites at the other South Shields club, The Marsden Inn, at that time; so Alex was dead right about that!
Last time I saw Alex was at Barnsley Festival in 1979 when I caught the end of the Monday afternoon concert where he brought the house down and then set off back down to London where he was booked that night as part of a week's work around his usual haunts down there.
BTW Hootenanny have a look at MacColl's book "Journeyman" – he includes a farting poem in the section dealing with his early years.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 08:44 PM

fer chrissake Dick, drop it!

its not about Ewan or Peggy. interesting as those people were...

lets talk Alex. one thing i was wondering - does anyone remember a young protege of Alex's - a guy called Dan Fone. Isaw him a few times in the 1970's and quite enjoyed his work. it would be nice to know how that story played out. like alex - dan was advertised as one of mike and julia billington's artists. i seem to remember they were based at Astwood Bank, sort of Dudley way.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 08:07 PM

Jim Carroll, you describe Jez lowe, as a middle of the road cabaret singer..
I quote from set into song Peter Cox, page 276. jez lowe came up with a beautifully crafted song that used the trade list as a background chant, whose idea was that said, Peggy Seeger...Brilliant.
Alex Campbell was a great entertainer,and a decent guy.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 07:26 PM

I couldn't say a bad word against Alex . He was larger than life , a massive ego and would knock out a song a the drop of a hat - no matter what you requested. The 60's folk scene in the UK ( to a certain extent) demanded personalities and Alex crtainly fitted THAT bill.
Breezy 's comments on 09 Mar 15 - 08:12 AM , were warming, and we shouldn't judge by todays values. Everyone then was trying to master "Angie" (slight exaggeration)apart from Carthy. These were nice days when Alex performed but the upcoming Mike Harding , Barbara Dickson , Tim Hart and Maddy Prior , Tony Capstick , Vin Garbutt, Derek an Dorothy Elliott etc etc were about to change the Folk Scene - for reasons best known to ourselves.
I last saw Alex when we stayed at Mike Billington's in Wolverhampton who had arranged gigs for us both (different venues of course). Long long time ago !!!
Alex was wrestling with the old damnation - Whisky - and had himself temporarily convinced that he could exist on Schloer which he clearly couldn't.
Nevertheless a clourful, and kind showman, and no bad word from me.
As he used to sing " So long " Alex .

Cheers Betsy

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 05:40 PM

Exactly.
The original post refers to Alex Campbell.

My introduction to Alex Campbell was when he came back from busking in the streets and in the cafes in Paris with New Yorker and whizz kid banjo player Joe Locker.They were a popular act at the Ballads & Blues and various other clubs. Joe went back to New York for a while and Alex appeared regularly as a solo act at the Ballads and Blues and other clubs around the country . I can verify that whenever he played the Ballads and Blues Club it was full. One evening he recited a very short poem the Glasgow kids used to recite which involved farting the audience thought it amusing and a couple of other singers told their farting jokes. The only guy that didn't find it amusing was seated in the Christine Keeler style. Rightly so I guess after all kid's street poems aren't folk are they.
OK so Alex had a fault or two like all of us human beings but he was an entertainer who made the music enjoyable and I am sure was responsible for bringing many people into the field of music that we call "folk". I would guess that even some people that are now primarily into the Child Ballads may have gotten there via Alex.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 04:12 PM

jez lowe...a middle of the road cabaret singer!

this conversation has just got silly. very silly.

from now on.....its a thread about Alex. all this other stuff is crap. if its shit i'm after, theres a farm down the road with horse manure.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 03:28 PM

jim, at some point you stated that they made a mistake in being isolationist, now you are saying they did not isolate themselves, for god sake stop wasting everyones time.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 03:25 PM

I quoted Jim on Ewan:-
I honestly never heard him take a pop at any other performer - not publicly anyway, and certainly not in the period I knew him.

and I responded:-
Utterly admirable! A policy that many would be advised to adopt, because in the end it is only personal likes and dislikes that we are talking about. It would be good advice to someone who has in recent times 'taken a pop' at artists as diverse as Jeremy Taylor and Norma Waterson on the very public forum of Mudcat.

Now we can add Jez Lowe to that growing list.
Any more for any more?

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: breezy
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 02:27 PM

Vote for Jez Lowe at the awards

I remember him in the early 70s with his hairy hurdy gurdy geezer friend Jake Walton down in North Cornwall.

Black diamond days

His latest album 'The Ballad Beyond' is very good, possibly better than average

I'm on the wrong thread . Get it ?

his tribute to Judy Dinning is very touching

His pose on the inside of the lyric booklet is very pro, a sex symbol from the 70s,

long live Jez L

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 02:24 PM

"whether you like it or not they isolated themselves"
So not recognising an individual singer songwriter is "isolating themselves?"
Bit crass, doncha think?
MacColl and Seeger devoted a large part of their lives to working with other singers - that is not isolating themselves,
They threw their home, their library and their collection open to singers and researchers on a weekly basis - that is not isolating themselves.
With New City Songster, they provided an outlet and encouragement to songwriters, that is not isolating themselves.
Of all people, MacColl, when asked his advice and opinion on a visiting singer's performance, he ave it, along with advice on how he believed it could be improved - that, as much as anything, led to his unpopularity - hat is not isolating themselves.
Instead of going with the flow when the clubs started to slither downhill, they continued to run a policy club and say publicly what they believed was happening on the scene - that is not isolating themselves.
If they had to decided to do none of these things, say and do nothing and just get on with their careers - that would have been to isolate themselves from the people who mattered - the audiences and the younger, less experienced singers coming to terms with folk music.
That is what the rest of the professional singers on the scene did - got on with their careers and left the rest of us to plod on.
I confess, I confess - I don't recall ever hearing Jez Lowe, as long as he might have been around.
I was far to busy listening to Jeannie, Belle, Sheila and Alec, Walter, Harry, Sam, Robert Cinnamond, Tom Costello, Elizabeth Cronin, John Strachan.... and all the other old singers who caught my attention and gave me my songs.
Then we plunged into recording field singers and players; Travellers, West of Ireland singers, Irish musicians in London, Norfolk country singers and fishermen.... as well as trying to improve my own singers and help others through London Singers Workshop.
Just taken time out to listen to Jez Lowe singing something about a monkey- which of the above do you reckon I should have abandoned to listen to someone who sounds like a middle-of-the-road cabaret singer whose style is half musical and half recitative and whose approach is somewhat twee?
Not impressive enough to miss an episode of Holby City for as far as I'm concerned.
What are you people on, strutting around telling the rest of us how much we've missed if we haven't heard.... well.... whoever happens to turn you on?
You seem to equate knowledge and experience with how many superstars we are familiar with.
"don't change Mudcat into the Jeremy Kyle show"
Very tempted to say "who's Jeremy Kyle" but that wuld be naughty of me!
I really am not trying to turn this into a 'who can piss highest' match
I'll happily leave that to Dick.
I just want him to go and stalk somewhere else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 01:19 PM

well Ewan as getting on. Do we know all the latest people on the folkscene, bow that we're as old as Ewan was. don't we all have to explain popular culture to our parents.

try to understand - he was a person, fallible, human.

Jim - Dick is not by nature a liar. they published a song by me. but they couldn't comprehend the space i occupied, i have the letter from her asking if i was black or brown - because i had sent them a song in Jamaican patois. at the time i worked as a teacher on soho rpad , newtown , birmingham - just opposite the black wax record shop.

wasn't i interested in the songs ofmy own country, peggy asked. this is my country , I explained. this is how people speak every day where i live and work.

The Caddick mustake is entirely understandable. forgiveable.
don't change Mudcat into the Jeremy Kyle show

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 12:51 PM

jim carroll, whether you like it or not they isolated themselves
peggy seeger said what i am quoting.
furthermore she had never heard of jez lowe or peter bond. this is all borne out by the fact that many years later, 2006 when jez contributed a later song to the radio ballads, she did not recognise the singer, and wanted to know who the singer was and who wrote the song.
JEZlOWE started writing and performing songs in the late 19 seventies, he was fully professional from the 1980s[ he played guitar on my first album] IN 1981, Peggy had not heard of him in 1986 and still in 2006 was not apparantly aware of him, until she listened to the 2006 radio ballds. whether you like it or not Mr Carroll, these are facts, ALL THIS BEARS OUT THEIR SELF IMPOSED ISOLATION.
It also bears out that I am not a liar, AS YOU ARE SUGGESTING.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 11:09 AM

DE MORTUIS NIL NISI BONUM. But before we do that may I just say that EMcC threw me out of his club in Gray's Inn Road for laughing, maybe he forgot that we were in a public house & yes I was rather squiffy.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: GUEST,Don Day
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 11:02 AM

"Regarding Alex Campbell one of the albums he recorded for Xtra was simply called "Alex Campbell" and contained 100% traditional songs (and very well done to boot). I loaned it to various friends and when he played our club, double booked with Finbar & Eddie Furey, the majority who had borrowed the LP were surprised that he performed mainly contemporary material."

I would remind Dave that on that night Alex Campbell was the main guest and therefore had to follow the Fureys in the first half. During the interval he pulled me and Bob Gilroy backstage and insisted that he should play first in the second half. In tears he admitted that the Fureys were better performers than himself and that this was what the audience would prefer to see. Although well oiled in Alex's usual style he represented himself well and he certainly raised himself in our estimation.

I would add that he was the main guest as he was booked first and the Fureys were, at that time, unknown.

Don Day

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 10:28 AM

Bryn??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 10:16 AM

I am somewhat loth to throw my hat in the ring, but here goes.

In my time as one of the MC brigade at MSG I hosted Ewan and Peggy at least twice, and Alex Campbell several times.

Let me say that I enjoyed all of these 'concerts'. I do not remember E & P laying down the law as to how the evening should be conducted,

Let me also say that I remember Alex as reasonably sober - it was only later I saw him "off his box" at what I think was a "Golden Lion" concert.

I was also a proud member of the Manchester Critics under Jim Carroll's excellent and learned stewardship.

It seems to me that this is a pointless argument. There are Ewan-philes, of which I am one, and Ewan-phobes.

It seems to me also that the poor bastard ought to be left in peace-

DE MORTUIS NISI BONUM and that means Ewan, Alex, and all who have gone before - we owe them much.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 09:25 AM

I know they tried to specify how long they performed - they usually worked out a programme in advance to give a balance of their repertoire, but the times I saw them perform, that specification was flexible ether way to fit in with what normally happened at the club.
They liked to hear the residents and made a point of going into the club room to listen to them beforehand - they seldom left the room till the end of the evening.
First time I saw them, at the Spinners Club in Liverpool, they ran over time by fifteen minutes doing encores of requests.
They also specified that, if there was a bar in the room that the noise was kept to a minimum, and if possible, drinks were only sold at the interval - wish all performers had done that.
They also requested that, where accommodation was provided, it was suitable to allow them to do voice and relaxation exercises - (lovely story on 'Freeborn Man' of Luke Kelly, who was a member of the Critics, terrifying his hosts in Grimsby into breaking down the bathroom door when they heard him doing the voice exercises.
"This was 1986, she certainly said that there were not people writing good songs in England,"
Extremely difficult to believe
Peggy ran New City Songster for twenty+ issues (got them all); it was made up of songs that were sent in from all over the English-speaking world.
They always made a point of commenting on the quality of the songs.
Between them, they probably did more than any other performers to encourage the making of new songs and getting them into circulation.
"I was utterly bored by Ewan and Peggy when I saw them at the Yorkshire folk centre in '66 ish"
The problem with these discussions is that all too often it gets bogged down in personal taste.
I was knocked out by Ewan and Peggy the first time I heard them sing ballads - it made me a lifelong devotee to that form of song.
So what - it doesn't matter how I or any individual feels about their singing - they are acknowledged as artists by enough people to have had the following and the respect that they gained, even though they may not be to everybody's taste.
The produced 'The Long Harvest' and 'Blood and roses, and between them, they introduced me to around half of the Child Ballads - that'll do for me, thank you very much.
I do know some people who don't actually like ballads - I can only say, "I'm sorry for their loss" (as they say around here whan somebody dies!!
"Jim are you calling me a liar"
I've no idea whether you are telling the truth or not - sometimes I have difficulty in working out what planet you occupy.
I've told you what E and P did to encourage song-making - easily verifiable
If I did call you a liar on this matter, it would be fairly small potatoes compared with the abusive and ill-mannered way you address innocent enquiries sometime (just had a good example of it on another thread).
"she did not acknowledge anything about bill caddick", which would be surprising if she had seen his songs in new city songster.
Are you calling me a liar?
She not only "saw" his songs - she selected them for publication - she was the editor.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 07:57 AM

I have been thinking over what Dave and Jim have said about booking Ewan & Peggy and the time of performances. I can't swear that they asked to perform for the full evening; but it seems likely to me that the contract probably called for the same 30 + 90 minutes which Dave mentions in his post.
Now I saw the pair three times in two Sussex clubs - both Sunday night clubs in pubs with a strict 10.30 pm, no drinking up time finish.. Both these clubs started at 8.15 and would have had a 15 minute interval leaving 120 minutes - the time the the guests were asking to perform!

We moved to Brighton in 1968 and started a Wednesday club straight away in a central Brighton pub. Looking back the situation seems unbelievable, but I can assure you that it is true. The Brighton licensing laws called for a 10.30pm closure on Suns and an 11pm closure on Fris and Sats. On Mon - Thurs pubs closed at 10.30 apart from a 13-week "holiday season" - effectively June to August - when they closed at 11pm. This meant that for 9 months of the year the club also had a 2 hour session. Actually, we started at 8pm but as in all the clubs that I have run the first 1/4 hour was of residents playing tunes.

What made the situation even more ridiculous was the fact that Hove was a separate local authority in those days and their non-Sunday closure was 11pm all the year round. Our first flat in Brighton was only one block away from the sea front, but also very close to the border with Hove. We had 3 pubs in our street, two in Brighton and one in Hove. We would often be having a drink in our local and if you were in a good conversation, around 10.25 someone would say, "Does anyone fancy a 'Hove pint'?" and then we would toddle 50 yards along the road for half hour's more drinking.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 07:48 AM

" I mentioned a few names such as Bill Caddick Jez Lowe PeterBond, they had not heard of them"
What a load of crap - Peggy ran a publication entitled 'New City Songster' in which she published new songs contributed by songwriters - several of them came from Bill Caddick"
Jim are you calling me a liar
This was 1986, she certainly said that there were not people writing good songs in England, she certainly appeared to have not heard of jez lowe or peter bond and at that time in the conversation she did not acknowledge anything about bill caddick, which would be surprising if she had seen his songs in new city songster. when were his songs published in NCS?

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 05:56 AM

The first time I saw AlexCampbell was in the Troubadour in 1963. In late '63 he was part of a concert in Dublin's famous Gate Theatre. also taking part were The (original 4)Dubliners, Deirdre O'Connell (later married to Luke Kelly)& Dominic Behan. It's a long time ago but I remember that Alex Campbell upstaged everybody else. He was brilliant.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: breezy
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 05:08 AM

I was utterly bored by Ewan and Peggy when I saw them at the Yorkshire folk centre in '66 ish.
It was more academic and not to my then taste
The likes of Alex , kept my interest alive
I promoted two Jeremy Taylor concerts, one in Lewisham Town Hall , I was also used as insurance and as Jeremy was late arriving I had to go on .
For the 2nd concert at the Young Vic , Jeremy did a solo performance to a capacity house and recorded an album,
Move on some 40 years and I'm organising a club in Herts, I book Jeremy and Harvey Andrews 3 times each and they attract a full house on each occasion, as did Harvey Andrews.
Have either of them been recognised for their contribution to the folk world?
Would I have booked Ewan and Peggy ?
Ewan's song output is beyond question .
Both Jeremy and Harvey have made considerable contributions to the world of folk song plus being first rate entertainers.
Long live Jez Lowe.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 04:23 AM

"his partly explains their ignorance of other performers on the uk folk scene "
This presumes that they were ignorant of other performers on the scene - which they were not, or no more ignorant than any other professional performer on the scene.
You said you met him once (it made its way up to twice or three times on occasion) - you take a great deal on yourself, pontificating the way you do on what they knew and what they didn't.
You 'folk police' are all the same, telling us who we should know and like.
" I mentioned a few names such as Bill Caddick Jez Lowe PeterBond, they had not heard of them"
What a load of crap - Peggy ran a publication entitled 'New City Songster' in which she published new songs contributed by songwriters - several of them came from Bill Caddick
You are making this up - the source of many of the Chinese whispers still circulating.
Give it a rest Dick.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 03:57 AM

At no time did I see our residents adopt the attitude I've seen many guests a clubs do - sit in the bar until they were called to do their spot.
As someone who did the door regularly, it really used to get up my nose when some visiting floor singer would ask for a spot, ask to be called "when it's my turn", then come down immediately, hand you his/her card and piss off into the night with no idea of what the club was about (occasionally complaining that they "only got one song".
Now that's what I call "isolation"."
    I totally agree,
however on further reflection I realise that my memory is partly playing tricks, when they came to Bury St Edmunds folk club they did do the night along with the residents, but when they did concerts[ in art centres etc] they definitely had a different policy, one where they preferred not to have other performers., and one where they often made it clear to the organiser they did not want other performers, this partly explains their ignorance of other performers on the uk folk scene
on all occasions, that i saw them, they gave excellent perfomances































2

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 03:24 AM

Dave Sutherland's experience of seeing Ewan and Peggy as Guests is mine as well.
I must have seen teh at least a dozen times before I moved to London - I never once saw them insist on taking the entire evening without residents or floor singers - not once.
Not only did they perform with other singers but they insisted on sitting in as audience when others were performing and they requested of Group members that they did the same - we were quite busy as a group, especially during projects like the Festival of Fools and it was a way of getting feedback from what was happening, and finding new guests to book - many of our bookings came from recommendations of what was happening at other clubs.
At The Singers Club, they would mix their performances - some nights together, some nights with two other residents - very occasionally a 'Solo Flight' evening, where one of the more experienced residents with a large enough repertoire would take the bulk of the evening - at no time was the floor spot abandoned, though, due to the number of visiting singers we got, it was usually limited to on floor singer, one song.
At no time did I see our residents adopt the attitude I've seen many guests a clubs do - sit in the bar until they were called to do their spot.
As someone who did the door regularly, it really used to get up my nose when some visiting floor singer would ask for a spot, ask to be called "when it's my turn", then come down immediately, hand you his/her card and piss off into the night with no idea of what the club was about (occasionally complaining that they "only got one song".
Now that's what I call "isolation".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 06:16 PM

DaveSutherland " I never said demanded" did anyone else use that term? . no. they asked, they politely made clear their preference, not the same thing at all, but it resulted in isolation.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 04:07 PM

i think everybody who sings is always interested in talking about the practice. i love talking to people who sing and play in different styles. look at all these magazines for people who all sing and make music in diverse ways. its the best club in the world. with no fees!

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 03:57 PM

Interesting, Dave, I wonder why they had different approaches to different clubs? I saw them five times in clubs in Sussex, twice at my own and each time it was a concert by the pair of them.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 03:47 PM

MacColl and Seeger demanded that there were no support acts on at their bookings? That's a new one on me; our club booked them three times between 1968 and 1973 and each time they stipulated that they would perform approx. 30 minutes in the first half and the whole of the second which amounted at around 90 minutes. The bar would be closed but no mention of residents etc being barred; as we were a folk and blues club naturally the residents performed both musical genres and on each occasion Ewan was highly complementary regarding our singers and musicians and on one occasion, during the interval, Peggy joined a couple of our musicians on her concertina as they played "The Weaver's March".
Regarding Alex Campbell one of the albums he recorded for Xtra was simply called "Alex Campbell" and contained 100% traditional songs (and very well done to boot). I loaned it to various friends and when he played our club, double booked with Finbar & Eddie Furey, the majority who had borrowed the LP were surprised that he performed mainly contemporary material.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 03:03 PM

"Well, which was it?
Both, of course.
MacColl worked along with the rest of the scene up to the point where he and Bert tried to get some sort of consensus as to which direction the clubs should aim for.
After the John Snow debacle, and beating in mind some of the events beforehand, (including one attempt at sabotaging one of the Radio Ballads, he shagged off elsewhere and went it alone, encouraged by a number of fairly well established singers on the scene.
He and Peggy, and the rest of us who were aware of the work being done by the Critics, never stopped arguing for some sort of work we believed was necessary to improve our singing, but rather than become involved in the dog-fighting, did our own thing.
For a long time, the various magazines run by people like Dallas, continued to be outlets for the work that was actually taking place, some of which made its way into Folk Review.
Ewan, Peg and some of the members of the Critics did weekend seminars at various part of the country and ran lectures the Singers club - got some of them on tape.
When I set up a workshop in Manchester I was given a list of around a dozen speakers who could run a week-end for us.
Ewan and Peg threw open their home to anybody who showed a genuine interest in working on song, and equipped any visitor with a bed, meals, two linked tape recorders and full access to their tape collection and books - without charge.
As Peggy said on the radio programmes we did (which hardly anybody in the U.K. has commented on) for nearly ten years, their three-bedroomed home welcomed researchers almost every weekend except when they were on tour.
By the time I joined the Critics Group I had copies of over three quarters of their sound archive and I had read a half dozen of their books.
I don't know another singer on the scene who can claim to have helped new and wannabe singers to that extent.
They could , of course, weighed into the melee and waited for the next packet of earthworms to pop through the letterbox, or the next tape of phony recordings of "Gypsy field singers" sent to **** up another Radio Ballad.
Let's face it Vic, you wouldn't have been the slightest bit interested in discussing ideas on singing with Ewan or any of us, any more than you are now - much easier to add to the Chinese whispers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 01:24 PM

having read the above post, i despair, jeremy taylor was instantly recognisable and had a distinct style of his own, I would not put him in the same class as MacColl, but his songs were unusual witty distinctive and well constructed as were the songs of Miles Wooton, but you could not confuse the two of them.
Jim Carroll reminds me of the wailing wall, it really is like talking to a person who has set ideas, who cannot acknowledge when people mention MacColls good points, in fact talking to Jim Carroll is reminscent of the main character in the film Shirley Valentine who ends up talking to the wall.
I can predict his response its a like a 78 record that is stuck, it will be grave dancing corpse kicking

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 01:13 PM

It is difficult, sometimes, to convey things in writing without making them sound challenging. It is much easier to convey this by tone of voice in conversation. I write this with the hope that it will not sound as though I am trying to start a row - which I am not......

Jim wrote
he adopted an isolationist policy and worked with those he believed could make a difference on the folk scene

Then he quotes me agreeing with him saying:-
If he had tried hard to explain his views on the tradition in a better way to a wider audience, his impact on the folk scene

and responds this by saying -
You're assuming he didn't try Vic

Well, which was it? Was he trying to disseminate his views or was he being isolationist. I don't think that you can have it both ways.

And one more thing. You explain Ewan's attitude to other performers.
I honestly never heard him take a pop at any other performer - not publicly anyway, and certainly not in the period I knew him.
Utterly admirable! A policy that many would be advised to adopt, because in the end it is only personal likes and dislikes that we are talking about. It would be good advice to someone who has in recent times 'taken a pop' at artists as diverse as Jeremy Taylor and Norma Waterson on the very public forum of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 12:42 PM

"If he had tried hard to explain his views on the tradition in a better way to a wider audience, his impact on the folk scene"
You're assuming he didn't try Vic - if what's happening thirty years after his death is anything to go by, the revival wasn't exactly a "listening bank".
MacColl actually had a considerable following both for his singing and for his ideas, about ten 'Critics type' workshops dotted around the country (I ran one in Manchester Terry Whelan ran one after I moved to London).
The old guard made pretty sure that the ideas that were coming from some of the policy clubs and workshops weren't taken seriously and even developed a launguage to make sure they weren't "purist", "finger-in-ear", "folk police"... still pretty much in currency.
A group of people, Bob Davenport, Terry Whelan and Harry Boardman among them, expressed some doubts with what was happening in the revival, approached Ewan and asked him to run classes - he refused, and instead, said he would be prepared to run a self-help group.
The Critics Group rn for nearly ten years and was disbanded as a Singers group in 1972, in order to form an acting group - which broke up in disarray a year later.
MacColl could have tried harder with his arguments, but he decided, why bother - I was was critical of his doing so - but the last couple of months trying to get people to even look at some of the work we did has pretty well brought me around to "why bother" - why talk to a wall when you can go and build your own house?
I know that the Group produced a totally unprecedented body of work on song - don't know anybody who came anywhere near to doing so.
And guess what - you still end up talking to that feckin' wall when you try to discuss it.
Discussion on MacColl, never get beyond the 'Arthur Two-Sheds' Jackson stage (present company sadly not excepted), discussions on 'what is folk song' are a no-go area and you have to send a scouting party out to find if a club advertising itself as "folk" actually caters for those of us who actually like and believe we know what a folk song is.
Household name or not, I have to admit, beyond a handful of recordings I heard and wasn't particularly impressed by, I wouldn't have put myself too far out to listen to Jeremy Taylor and wouldn't have been able to single him out from so many others on the part of the folk scene I wasn't involved in - busy days back then.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 12:26 PM

I had a similiar experience to Vic, on this particular occasion I was doing a support for them, this was unusual as they did not like having support acts, we had a long conversation between the break , and Peggy said that there seemed to be a lot of people writing good songs in America, but no one doing so in the UK, I mentioned a few names such as Bill Caddick JezLowe PeterBond, they had not heard of them.
Afterwards they said to the organiser that all though the support act was good , that next time they would rather do the concert without a support act, this was how they isolated them selves they did not go to many clubs other than their own, and they did not see any other performers because they wanted to do the show on their own.
the concert that they did was very good

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: GUEST,oggie
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 11:35 AM

Alex's son (also Alex) is gradually putting more and more of his recordings on Youtube, just search for him.

In all fairness they are a mixed bag. By modern standards some are now so old and hackneyed I don't think they're sung anymore BUT live (and I saw him a couple of times) it didn't matter. One of the most charismatic performers I've ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFNqEKNv_ZQ

Steve

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 11:30 AM

Jim Carroll wrote -
After the John Snow meeting, he adopted an isolationist policy and worked with those he believed could make a difference on the folk scene
I confess, when I spoke on The Critics Group at his 70th birthday symposium, it was one of my main criticisms of his wit#k with the Group

I think that this is an important and significant point that Jim has made. Ewan did shut himself off from the rest of the folk scene and keep a lot of the benefits of his wide reading and broad and interesting thinking and experience only to the group that met in Beckenham. If he had tried hard to explain his views on the tradition in a better way to a wider audience, his impact on the folk scene - and the understanding of his approach - at the time might have been broader; but that was not Ewan's way.

I would like to add that I think he went beyond an "isolationist policy" and that he actually blocked the importance of what was happening on the wider scene. This story will illustrate why I suggest this.

In the late 1960s Ewan and Peggy were booked at a club in Brighton.
Now, in those days, as I remember from when I booked them myself, their contract was quite specific on how the evening would be run including no bar to be open in the performing room and that they were to perform the whole evening with no support acts.
Now when the organiser of this club told his resident singers/comperes that their only task that evening was going to be introducing the guests not starting off the evening or organising and introducing floor singers they decided that they would not bother to come on that night. The pissed-off organiser approached me, the organiser of another club in the town to run the evening for him whilst he, as usual, took the money on the door.
I was talking to Ewan before the evening started when we heard that it was house full and people were being turned away.
"House full," said Ewan, obviously very pleased, "I don't expect that happens very often."
"Oh, yes, I replied. "Reasonably often. Certainly, twice in recent weeks."
"Really? Who was booked as guests?"
"Well, one was Jake Thackray and the other was Jeremy Taylor."
"Who?"
I repeated the names.
"I'm afraid that you have the advantage of me." was the reply.

Well, at that time these two were household names - well beyond the folk scene. Jake was always on the television and had a weekly spot on the hugely popular Esther Rantzen programme. Jeremy had shows running in West End theatres, some he wrote the music for and some like "Wait A Minim" he appeared in himself. I didn't (and still don't) believe that Ewan had not heard of these people. If he hadn't he must have been leading a very "isolationist" life indeed.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 10:45 AM

nah the smothers bros glory days were late 60's early 70's. they came over did Parkinson. they even tried one series on the bbc, but it was too bland for England. Tom Smothers did some acting. but they were a stateside thing. the sort of act that had its genesis in nightclubs in the days when Josh White played alongside Lenny Bruce.

they were pretty good musically as i remember - sharp. and like i say - they featured folk artists on their show and folksongs in their act. they introduced people to folk music - someone has to -otherwise it never gets away from behind the haystack.

but the thing is Jim. i look at it as an artist, and i understand the source of Ewan's angst -perhaps better than you do. everyone says he worked he worked like a demon on that ship of fools project - and so many other things.
of course it would have pissed him off seeing Donovan and Dylan and all the rest of that circus pissing away creative opportunities, publishing deals - god knows what. he'd been promoting and writing folk music before most of them were born. Ewan on the Parkinson Show, interviewed by Playboy, Esquire....it would have made his work so much easier. he must have been incandescent. its the lot of all artists!

being nasty about other very talented performers won't make people like MacColl any more. i admire your loyalty. i don't like the nastiness that comes with it - i don't believe Ewan would want it. he was more of a positive person than a negative one.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 10:44 AM

Yes indeed. I too learned Willie More from Alex's singing. Now one of my favourite songs.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 10:31 AM

I've only heard him on recordings, but think he could put life into a song. Just been listening to a clip and I'd just have to join in with "Can't You Dance The Polka"

I do more playing that singing but sometimes when I do a song, it's one I got the words from a tape of his - Willie Moore. Other end of the scale maybe, quite a sad one.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 10:30 AM

As I have said before: far from its being 'grave-dancing', I consider the continuing {pro as well as con} critical evaluation of Ewan's influence as an earnest of what an important figure he was on our Scene. Shows how seriously we all take what he stood for and achieved, Jim.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 10:20 AM

gravedancing?his isolationist policy was a mistake , but none of it takes away from his legacy , his songs

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: breezy
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 09:27 AM

Thanks Vic, I enjoyed that, and we had Robin Hall and Jimmy McGregor[sp]

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 09:10 AM

"Donovan etc were being described as the face of folk music."
Yup - me too - a little far from "MacColl was pissed off because he wasn't one of the big names in the great folk scare"
"i take it he wasn't keen on Alex Campbell either."
I honestly never heard him take a pop at any other performer - not publicly anyway, and certainly not in the period I knew him.
After the John Snow meeting, he adopted an isolationist policy and worked with those he believed could make a difference on the folk scene
I confess, when I spoke on The Critics Group at his 70th birthday symposium, it was one of my main criticisms of his wit#k with the Group - in view of the grave-dancing that is still going on thirty years after his death - didn't I get that one wrong!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 08:58 AM

The Smothers Brothers - My Old Man

Fairly popular in the USA in the late '50s early '60s, occasionally their shows were broadcast on British television.
A very broad interpretation indeed would be needed to call them a 'folk act'.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: GUEST,dave
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 08:39 AM

Ewan MacColl's record as a songwriter stands alongside anyone of that era, I never got to see him perform. Alex Campbell I know only from recordings, a significant performer, if not to my taste. Martin Carthy may not have written Blowing in the Wind, but his arrangement of Scarborough Fair was of course a worldwide hit, even if unattributed. Bob Dylan's output is of course prodigious, if uneven. But I had never, ever heard of the Smothers Brothers until happening upon this thread.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 08:33 AM

i'm sorry Jim - i thought that was a given. i understood that from the first interviews i read. ten years before i met him. he came over as rigid with anger that Donovan etc were being described as the face of folk music.

i remember he thought it extraordinary that i had learned Nottanum Town from Bert Jansch. i didn't pursue it. i figured it was of cos of his dismissiveness of all the 60's crowd.

perhaps i misunderstood. its possible. perhaps you'ld care to elucidate. he certainly seems to have passed on his low opinion of other people trying to play folk music to you.

i take it he wasn't keen on Alex Campbell either.

Subject: RE: Never heard of Alex Campbell
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 08:12 AM

some things never change, still the same people in the folk world trying to tell others what they should do, the disciple of MacColl reveals his true colours,
Alex Campbell was a generous man, I have been told by two ex organisers, how in his.. hey day he refused to take the larger fee[percentage of the door], just taking the agreed minimium, and saying keep it you might need it some time to keep the club going.both clubs had been packed and busier than they had been for a long time, he was an entertainer whose music was accesible though his quick wit.
He was a giant compared to some of the pontificating pygmies on this thread, if he complained about the hype of young superstars he had justification,no one pulled in audiences like Alex Campbell, he was a very funny man and a good communicator.