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I've posted my last song on Mudcat

Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 02:12 AM
GUEST,Ewan McVicar 11 Apr 01 - 02:20 AM
wdyat12 11 Apr 01 - 04:26 AM
Joan from Wigan 11 Apr 01 - 04:48 AM
GUEST 11 Apr 01 - 05:07 AM
gnu 11 Apr 01 - 07:27 AM
Willie-O 11 Apr 01 - 08:18 AM
UB Ed 11 Apr 01 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,Matt_R 11 Apr 01 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,SCabby Doug at work 11 Apr 01 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,SD again 11 Apr 01 - 09:24 AM
Mrrzy 11 Apr 01 - 09:52 AM
MMario 11 Apr 01 - 09:55 AM
Jon Freeman 11 Apr 01 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Roll&Go-C 11 Apr 01 - 10:06 AM
UB Ed 11 Apr 01 - 10:27 AM
UB Ed 11 Apr 01 - 10:28 AM
MMario 11 Apr 01 - 10:29 AM
Jeri 11 Apr 01 - 10:32 AM
Amos 11 Apr 01 - 10:36 AM
Barbara Shaw 11 Apr 01 - 10:50 AM
wysiwyg 11 Apr 01 - 11:13 AM
wysiwyg 11 Apr 01 - 11:16 AM
mousethief 11 Apr 01 - 11:28 AM
Jeri 11 Apr 01 - 11:54 AM
wysiwyg 11 Apr 01 - 12:26 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 01:16 PM
Amergin 11 Apr 01 - 01:18 PM
wysiwyg 11 Apr 01 - 01:28 PM
mousethief 11 Apr 01 - 01:29 PM
mousethief 11 Apr 01 - 01:32 PM
Jon Freeman 11 Apr 01 - 01:36 PM
Amergin 11 Apr 01 - 01:38 PM
Jon Freeman 11 Apr 01 - 01:41 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 01:41 PM
mousethief 11 Apr 01 - 01:46 PM
Amergin 11 Apr 01 - 01:46 PM
Amergin 11 Apr 01 - 01:48 PM
MMario 11 Apr 01 - 01:51 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 01:55 PM
Mark Clark 11 Apr 01 - 01:56 PM
Amergin 11 Apr 01 - 02:02 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 02:04 PM
Amergin 11 Apr 01 - 02:07 PM
mousethief 11 Apr 01 - 02:09 PM
Big Mick 11 Apr 01 - 02:13 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 02:13 PM
Bernard 11 Apr 01 - 02:15 PM
mousethief 11 Apr 01 - 02:21 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 02:21 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 02:24 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 02:24 PM
Robo 11 Apr 01 - 02:27 PM
Bernard 11 Apr 01 - 02:31 PM
mousethief 11 Apr 01 - 02:35 PM
MMario 11 Apr 01 - 02:37 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 02:46 PM
John Hardly 11 Apr 01 - 02:49 PM
Jon Freeman 11 Apr 01 - 03:00 PM
wysiwyg 11 Apr 01 - 03:11 PM
John Hardly 11 Apr 01 - 03:14 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 03:18 PM
wysiwyg 11 Apr 01 - 03:21 PM
wysiwyg 11 Apr 01 - 03:24 PM
MMario 11 Apr 01 - 03:30 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 03:31 PM
Jeri 11 Apr 01 - 03:35 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 03:38 PM
IvanB 11 Apr 01 - 03:55 PM
Mark Clark 11 Apr 01 - 04:32 PM
katlaughing 11 Apr 01 - 04:34 PM
Sorcha 11 Apr 01 - 04:50 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 05:04 PM
Lonesome EJ 11 Apr 01 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Philippa 11 Apr 01 - 05:24 PM
Bert 11 Apr 01 - 05:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Apr 01 - 06:05 PM
Bill D 11 Apr 01 - 06:36 PM
mousethief 11 Apr 01 - 06:37 PM
Bill D 11 Apr 01 - 06:45 PM
Sorcha 11 Apr 01 - 06:50 PM
Burke 11 Apr 01 - 09:07 PM
Big Mick 11 Apr 01 - 10:13 PM
catspaw49 11 Apr 01 - 10:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Apr 01 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,Sir Thomas More 12 Apr 01 - 09:02 AM
Mark Clark 12 Apr 01 - 10:17 AM
Clinton Hammond 12 Apr 01 - 03:56 PM
Big Mick 13 Apr 01 - 12:32 AM
Clinton Hammond 13 Apr 01 - 10:39 AM
Peg 13 Apr 01 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,Eric Berne 13 Apr 01 - 11:11 AM
Robo 13 Apr 01 - 01:22 PM
UB Ed 13 Apr 01 - 02:24 PM
RichM 13 Apr 01 - 05:47 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 13 Apr 01 - 05:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Apr 01 - 05:54 PM
Malcolm Douglas 13 Apr 01 - 09:30 PM
Joe Offer 13 Apr 01 - 09:41 PM
Joe Offer 13 Apr 01 - 10:08 PM
Jon Freeman 14 Apr 01 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,Ned Ludd 14 Apr 01 - 09:22 AM
Tweedie 14 Apr 01 - 10:17 AM
Mrs.Duck 14 Apr 01 - 10:56 AM
Amos 14 Apr 01 - 11:11 AM
Joe Offer 14 Apr 01 - 12:11 PM
Luke 14 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM
Bill D 14 Apr 01 - 12:38 PM
mousethief 14 Apr 01 - 12:45 PM
Peg 14 Apr 01 - 12:45 PM
Mark Clark 14 Apr 01 - 01:21 PM
Bernard 14 Apr 01 - 06:43 PM
Bernard 14 Apr 01 - 06:52 PM
Bernard 14 Apr 01 - 07:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Apr 01 - 07:05 PM
katlaughing 15 Apr 01 - 12:10 AM
Bernard 15 Apr 01 - 05:08 AM
Burke 15 Apr 01 - 10:47 PM
katlaughing 15 Apr 01 - 11:30 PM
Luke 16 Apr 01 - 07:34 AM
mousethief 16 Apr 01 - 12:17 PM
Bernard 16 Apr 01 - 06:50 PM
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Subject: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:12 AM

This is such a pain in the ass, having to add html codes to posts... and for NO GOOD REASON AT ALL!!! Any MB worth it's salt would pre-format! So from here on in, no more song posts from me! Ya want lyrics from me, I'll emaile 'em to ya, but Mudcat can get stuffed!!!


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:20 AM

Well, there we are. Words of comfort fail me.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: wdyat12
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:26 AM

ClintonHammond,

Not quite sure what this is all about yet, but you sound pretty mad.

wdyat12


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:48 AM

Clinton, I have been a grateful recipient of your words and chords in the past. As a poster of songs, I can also understand your frustration. I feel irked at having to type out something I have already typed out for my personal song database, and often wish I could just cut-and-paste. However, it's not possible with the current Mudcat software, so I grit my teeth and plough on regardless.

I look at it this way: I have gratefully received, from you and others, and from the DT, the words and chords of songs I would otherwise not have been able to find. And I know others too are extremely grateful for this site and for the many helpful people who contribute to it, without whom it would be useless.

I am thankful enough to want to give something back. And if that involves a little bit of frustration in re-typing and adding line-breaks, then so be it.

I hope this is just a mood-swing you're going through, and not a permanent thing, because you've added lots of quality to this site, and I'd hate you to feel so cheesed off that you can no longer contribute as fully as you have done so far. You may feel differently in a day or two, or a week or two, so please don't feel that just because you've said this publicly that you can't change your mind - you can if you want to!

Joan


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:07 AM

None of my business really. I'm only a guest myself. But if someone complains, in anger and frustration, I just hope someone takes it seriously.

There is never JUST ONE unhappy customer.

BS


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:27 AM

Clinton... did you get a GBS CD stuck on replay or something ?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Willie-O
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 08:18 AM

Me, I'm unable to type anything anywhere without adding br and p tabs now...

Willie-O


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: UB Ed
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 08:34 AM

I hear ya, Clint.

As I was crusing over the last couple weeks, I came across an excellent suggestion about how WORD documents can be tweaked to find & replace the end paragraph tab with the br. I thought I was smart enough to remember, but was wrong.

Did anybody else see it, and if so, can we repeat it here?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 08:49 AM

Same here, Willie. I can do html on non-formatted in a matter of minutes. And believe me, I've done some LONG songs before.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: GUEST,SCabby Doug at work
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:24 AM

In Microsoft word , if you search for ^p (that's the caret symbol like the circumflex accent, then a p), you could search and replace it with the left chevron, "b", then the right chevron or "<BR>". That should do it...

If you don't have Word, ummm...


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: GUEST,SD again
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:24 AM

Ha! knew it would eat the BR inside the angle brackets...


SD, I have fixed it. To do what you tried, you need to type &lt;br&gt; JoeClone.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:52 AM

It's really easy to take text and turn it into HTML with a couple of global search&replaces. In fact, Clinton Hammond, since I like you and your music so much, why don't you email me the files and I'll do the turning into HTML for you. My emails on the Resources. Don't give us up just because our technology ain't what it otta be... please?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: MMario
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:55 AM

I virtually never type lyrics for posting - it's all cut and paste...


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:03 AM

Clinton, if it is such a big deal to you, why not just post and let a JoeClone sort it out? I'm sure it wouldn't add that much of a burden to us.

Jon


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:06 AM

The current system is irritating, but so is much word processing learning, and relearning. Hope you're not permanently bent out of shape.

Say how do I make one line BOLD, instead of the whole damn thing?


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Subject: Lyr Add: ALL ALONG THE WATCHTOWER (Bob Dylan)
From: UB Ed
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:27 AM

Let's see if it works:ALL ALONG THE WATCHTOWER
(Bob Dylan)

Am G F G Am (play it forever)

There must be some kind of way out of here
Said the joker to the thief
There's too much confusion
I can't get no relief
Businessmen they drink my wine
Plowmen dig my earth
None of them along the line Know what any of it is worth

No reason to get excited
The thief he kindly spoke
There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now
he hour is getting late

All along the watchtower
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
Barefoot servants too
Outside in the distance
A wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching
The wind began to howl


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: UB Ed
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:28 AM

It does! Thanks Scabby!


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: MMario
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:29 AM

just like line breaks but b instead of br before the part you want bolded and then /b after...


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:32 AM

What Jon said. It's a pain to type line breaks in, but not a very big one. I type in <br> once and copy it, then whenever I want one, just type Ctrl/V. I don't mind helping you out if you find it a major aggravation to type the line breaks in.

Charlie, you type in <b>to make text bold, then </b> wherever you want the boldness to stop.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:36 AM

Both Netscape Composer and Word can convert to HTML automatically. You type, as in a word processor, and save to the desktop or someplace as (filename.html). Open it in a browser (IE or NS), view source and select and copy the actual content, now HTML formatted. Don't copy the page head stuff -- just from the first line you typed tothe end of your last line.

Then go over to the Mudcat thread of interest and hit Paste. Bingo -- fully formatted HTML in a thread without typing any containers or other html commands.

A


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:50 AM

Amos, what a great idea! Never thought of it.

Clinton, I agree that it's pretty primitive to have to do all the HTML on posts. I do know HTML, but it's a gigantic pain, and a skill that will be totally obsolete before too long, and not really worth knowing. (And then there's the issue that the songs I post never make it to the database anyway . . .)


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 11:13 AM

ALL THESE have been covered in the FAQ thread. As I see it we have two choices here. Learn to use the tools we have or let someone else use them... and I too would gladly offer to format things e-mailed to me. I have spent the last week getting a batch ready to post to clear up some older confusing threads, in fact, and I also post about three pieces each week from the songsheets I am creating for our church services or our jam group. I can do it in my sleep.

My e-mail clicky is all over this Forum too, as well as below, so feel free anyone. People help ME a lot because I am on a real bad sucky computer, so this is something I can do easily and am glad to do to contribute here.

But also please at least read the FAQ thread. It IS a lot to absorb all at once but ALL of us can learn one trick at a time.

I also have a Word template document that sits on my desktop with HTML templates to do what is described here. E-mail me if you want me to e-mail it to you as an attachment.

(Click HERE to e-mail me. SUBJECT LINE: HTML TEMPLATE or PLEASE POST FOR ME)

~S~

Here is the rest of what my templates can do, all simply pasted in from it. (No significance to the things these clickies will take you to-- just samples):




If you're new around here, have you checked out THIS yet?


And now, another shameless plug for the Mudcat FAQ Thread! No Mysteries Unsolved! Get Your Mudcat HTML Secret Decoder!
IT'S EASY--JUST CLICK THIS for Your Free, All-Expenses Paid Mudcat Tour du Jour!


Another DT treasure: TYPE SONG TITLE HERE

CLICK HERE

4 Sacred Harp singings in 4 weeks

This should be bold (as should we all)

This should be italics and I really mean it!

This should be big print

And this should be small print

Some people like to use strikeout

   preformatted text is nice for lyrics with chords  




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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 11:16 AM

And if anyone else has some good tricks, please e-mail them to me and I will add them to my HTML TRIX doc.

~S~


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 11:28 AM

Me, I just plop 'em into microsoft Word, where I have a macro on the button bar which automatically does the work for me. Then I copy all and dump it into the box in Mudcat.

And I'm no genius.

Alex


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 11:54 AM

I use notepad to write out song lyrics. It would be fairly simple to do a template for that.


<b>Song Title</b><br>
<br>
Line of verse<br>
Line of verse<br>
Line of verse<br>
Line of verse<br>
Blank space<br>
Line of verse<br>


You could reduce that so you don't have to delete anything, just type in:
<b></b><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>

Copy this to a Notepad file.<br>
Whenever you wanted to type lyrics,<br>
type them into the Notepad file and copy&paste to mesage window,<br>
or copy&paste the tempate, then type.<br>
<br>
Hope that helps. I still find it easier to hit Ctrl/V.<br>


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 12:26 PM

Jeri, I think you missed the cancel-bold commands there?

~S~


Thanks Susan - fixed it! --JoeClone(guess who)


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Subject: I've REALLY posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:16 PM

See... Frigg'n primative garbage... "add these in here", "Compose it in this and copy it to that and then drag it here", "learn this trick and that trick"... I have better things to do... No way am I going through that much BULL!! If I see song requests that I could respond to, I'll offer that they PM me thier email addy and I'll send it to them with key, tuning, chord structure and all kinds of mean and nasty things! Mudcat sucks and not in the good way, and it doesn't have to!!!


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:18 PM

Ok, so why are you announcing this?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:28 PM

Well I WOULD like to be able to just think of a song while driving and then see it materialize in the forum....

Really, CH, posting songs is pretty simple. Are you suggesting that we should be able to type them right in, with coding automatic? This would actually slow me down, since my first reason for typing them (if I have not dropped and dragged them in from another source) is to create songsheets formatted the way I want them.

You don't do your songwriting online do you? Aren't they already in some other form to begin with? Do you know about highlight, drop, and rag? Cuz really it IS that simple.

And some people also hae Optical Character Recognition scanners... these convert what they see into text, no typing. Or software that takes dictation and makes text...

If Max were to standardize how we post songs, we'd lose the ability to do them the way we like, too.

Tellya what though. If you answer a request in e-mail, how about you send me a copy too and I will post it for you. Just put me in your address book.

~Susan

motormice@hotmail.com


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:29 PM

We all wish mudcat were a little more like the way WE want it. It's like the way MAX wants it, and we can either live with that or take our ball and go home. Whining about it is really poor form, IMHO.

Alex


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:32 PM

If you (as I have) read those threads that say "Max Testing -- do not post here" you will know that Max has tried all sorts of different ways to get song lyrics to post without us having to type in the HTML tags. Obviously this is something he is concerned about, and equally obvious is that he hasn't found one yet he likes, or he would have implemented it.

Meanwhile, if you're too lazy to drop song lyrics into MSWord and have it auto-format them for you, then just don't post lyrics. But why whine about it?

Alex


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:36 PM

Clinton, you have already had 2 JoeClones indicating a willingness to help out why not take advantage of that instead of continuing your protest?

Jon


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:38 PM

Well, I like it the way it is....I don't mind having to use the < br >....I'm just glad there are HTML capabilities here....


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:41 PM

Yes, Mousthief, it does exist on the test system but I don't know if or when Max intends to implement it. I have been allowed to try it and found it was great for posting lyrics but I found it horrible for posting other HTML, e.g. with a table, I like to place the TRs and TDs on separate lines and use indentation so that I can actually see what belongs to what - can't do that with line breaks added.

Jon


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:41 PM

I'm not whining about it MT et al... I'm letting my opinions be known, in hopes that thngs might be changed... But it's such a complacent lot here, I'm not holding my breath... and also, this way, when I post that I have lyrics that I'm NOT posting, I can refer the person here so they know why... Too lazy?? No... I just don't like doing stupid fiddl'y grunt work that no MB in it's right mind requires me to do... When you're word processing a document, you don't add the hidden codes in yourself do you??? NO... and this place should be NO differenet... Ever tried to post a song here with chords above the lyrics? It's nearly impossible to get it right without fecking around with html code for hours... feck that... rollit up in a tight wee ball and cram it with wallnuts!


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:46 PM

What you're complaining about is HTML. Max can't change that. And as I said, if you were observant, you'd know that Max has been trying to make song-posting more friendly but hasn't yet found a way he's satisfied with. So "letting [your] opinions be known in hopes that things might be changed" is rather unnecessary. Thus it looks like whining.

We'd all like to be able to post song lyrics without fiddling with the HTML. Max is working on it. Meanwhile we have to take a few extra steps. Such a hardship! And there are porn sites I could be surfing instead!

Alex


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:46 PM

Clinton, I ask again, so why announce it?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:48 PM

Alex, if it weren't this I'm sure our esteemed friend here would be bitching and moaning and carrying on about something else....


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: MMario
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:51 PM

well - posting chords above lyrics ISN'T going to work right -ever- at least not on everyones browser - because the viewer has a choice of what fonts get used - and most people use fonts that aren't going to line up properly unless the post was written in the same font.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:55 PM

Setting up a MB so that it can be searched and posted to easily is child play simple... So don't try to tell me that max is 'working on it but can't find a way to do it'.. this place has sat stagnant for HOW LONG? screw it... and amerigin... feck off! Ya got nothing intelligent ot offer, don't offer anything... at least MT and I can discuss our differences in opinion and such without acting like children...


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:56 PM

What Max has given us is the flexibility to present our posts almost any way we feel they should look. This lets us give each other links to other information on the Net, highlight text and lyrics so chord references are easy to understand, construct simple tablature for sharing technique and whole lot more. This power and flexibility comes at a price and that is some responsibility dealing with the markup tags. I think the tradeoff is a good one but then I'm a computer guy.

I use a free editor—EMACS is my choice but there are many simpler ones—whenever I'm doing anything complicated like tablature or lyrics. The editors let me simply type things the way I want them to look. I can simply highlight text like you would in a word processor and pick bold or emphasized from a tool bar. The editor plugs in the beginning and ending tags so all I have to do is copy it and paste it into the Mudcat thread window.

Maybe I'll look for free and easy HTML editors and post links back here.

And if anyone wants to post lyrics but it's too much trouble, you can also email them to me and I'll typeset them for you. I'd really hate to see us lose a song.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:02 PM

Yes, and telling me to "feck off" is acting like an adult. BTW if it is so easy, why don't you set it up instead of whining about it?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:04 PM

Yes it is... and I'd set it up, but it's not MY web site!


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:07 PM

Then shut up and move on.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:09 PM

What's an MB?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:13 PM

The facts are that there are two sides to each coin. Making it easier usually results in less flexibility and fewer options. But what really troubles me is the attitude demonstrated. Trying to urge the change in the manner you are using demonstrates that you seem to think you have the right to do so, because this is something you have coming. Our little world here exists only because Max continues to let it exist even though it costs him financially, emotionally, and in terms of his time. Time for you to wake up to some stuff. You don't have shit coming, and instead of whining about this publicly why don't you just contact Max personally and have a discussion of it with him. When you use comments like "Mudcat sucks" and "Mudcat can get stuffed" you demonstrate much about yourself and invite the comments you are receiving. Or better yet, why not send him a check to help pay for some different technology? Oh no,...sorry, I forgot.......... that won't do, cause that would be like paying for downloaded tracks, or ripping off software. Why put yourself out, when you can enjoy someone elses hardwork and you don't have to pay. And then you have the gall to bitch about it.

Mick


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:13 PM

Mark Clark... I appreciate the effort, but that's at the heart of my dissatisfaction... I'm not gonna download a whole new program to post lyrics here... there's no reason for it... I should be able to simply open my copy of lyrics that are already typed into my word processor of choice, copy and paste em here and have done... To have to then go back and add all the junk html is a huge pain in the ass... and the number of songs I've already elected to not post because of it is huge... If I could copy and paste the way the rest of the net works, Hell... I'd be tempted to post the 200-300 songs I have on this beast... Just to add 'em to the Database...


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Bernard
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:15 PM

For some of us HTML is almost a way of life - comes second nature, etc.

However, I concede that it is archaic, especially when you consider the massive strides computer technology has taken in such a tiny space of time.

However, there are so many HTML editors around that it should be possible to incorporate the function in Mudcat - maybe in a similar way to 'Outlook' where you can decide for yourself whether to post 'text only' or HTML.

Computers are supposed to be time savers, but are the opposite for many people.

I fully understand, CH, that it is more than just frustrating to post something, then be on pins waiting to see how it really turns out - only to find you missed one character that screws up the entire mess.

Those of us brought up on BASIC programming know that only too well!

One answer may be a small HTML editor program that Mudcatters may download, which allows us to insert codes from a 'pick list'.

Just a thought...


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:21 PM

This really does look like "looking a gift horse in the mouth" -- complaining about something that costs you nothing and from which you derive great benefit, because it is a LEETLE inconvenient.

What the hell is an MB?

Alex


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:21 PM

Bmick... ummm.. lemme see.. first.. I don't believe that I have anything coming to me... I'm keen to make mudcat all that it can be.. a fantastic online resource for folk and blues music... but... as it stands now, it's far from it, and the changes that could be made are so simple... Send Max a check?? Like Napster, when I see that the standards of Mudcat are up to what I expect them to be, what they could be som simply, I'd gladly pay for this service... until then, nope...

Regarding opitions... what options do we have now?? None as far as I can see... we can post and feck aobut with html until out eyes bleed, trying to make the damn chords sit in the right places over the words, or we can not post... What am I missing?

MT... a MB is a message board... sorry... I just assumed that eveyone here posting on this messageboards would know that... oops...


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:24 PM

here's a $10,000 question???

Since when does the enter KEY work, so that you don't have to put in line breads and paragraph breaks????????


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:24 PM

And what the hell is a line bread?!?!?!?!?!?!


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Robo
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:27 PM

"Aw . . . the humanity!"

Rob-o


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Bernard
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:31 PM

I thought 'MB' was Message Board...

But then, I'm old and wrinkly, and remember...


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:35 PM

If the changes are so simple, why not send Max an email detailing your suggestion? That is sure to be taken more positively than a "this place sucks" thread. Every now and then Max puts up a "what would you like to see?" thread, and we are free to say whatever improvements we would like. I hardly see this as a place where we must like it the way it is, or lump it. But a little -um- gentleness in making suggestions probably goes a long way.

I've never seen any editor box online that would make lining up chords easy -- does such a thing exist? Have you made one and tested it, so that you KNOW that it could work the way you THINK it would? I'm very skeptical about this.

Actually I don't think I've heard the term "message board" or if i did it washed over me and I didn't think about it very much (always a real and eminent danger). Thanks for the defn.

Line bread -- perhaps that is a spoonerism of brine lead, which of course is a sounding device.

Alex


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: MMario
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:37 PM

One advantage of the mudcat forum the way it is is that it is more compatible with text only browsers than are those web forums that are pure html.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:46 PM

Ummm... does anybody even use text only browsers anymore? And why would they?!? That's like running a TRS-80 on purpose! LOL!!

On Ezboards, UBB MB's, and just about any other MB that I frequent I can post a line and if I need to I can just space bar or tab over to the appropriate word to put a chiord name over... easy peasy puddin' and pie...

And ummm... abck tot he line bread thing... what's a brine lead?? A sounding device? OH WAIT! As in depth sounding!!! Gotcha! D'uh...


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:49 PM

I have a certain amount of sympathy because, try as I may, I don't UNDERSTAND the FAQ's. I figured out line breaks the long way early on.

I just recently figured out my own way to use one key and substitute it for br breaks in "Word". But I just look admiringly at those of you so facile with code that you can put chords over lyrics, make links (especially the ones where the words of the text INCLUDE the link--very fancy!)

I don't know if I'm learning disabled but I just can't remember codes long enough to go from window to window and still remember them. And I don't understand the lingo that makes the FAQs make sense (I just learned that html is not an abbrieviation for "hotmail")

I even feel that, though I wouldn't want a thing changed for my sake, my lack of facility with the process has caused me to be misunderstood several times. I can't express myself, but it's quite clear that most of you have no trouble.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:00 PM

Yes, Clinton, text browsers are still used.

Jon


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:11 PM

(*&%&* )(*^*(&%*& (*&()*)(*^ )_(&()*&()*^ B(*&()*^()^& ()*&(*&*&*&( (*(*)&()*&(*&*)(& (*&(*&()*&()*& (*(*&)

There, now I feel beer TOO.

John H, e-mail me anything you want done that you can't do. I am a learner but I can do it.

RANT ON, I don't do this often, and DAMMIT HERE I GO!

CH, yer just being a poohead! If you have a file of 200 - 300 songs, send them to someone who will be a better steward of them! Me! I'll post them ALL! Just cuz yer being so SILLY! I'll take out a new membership called CH's Secretary! And recruit a crew to help me and give them the password to post as CH's Secretary!

RANT OFF... Maybe!

~S~


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:14 PM

Hey thanks ~S~! ...but I don't understand the code at the top of your last post ;o)


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:18 PM

Yes... I have a folder with 2-300 songs in it... mostly stuff that I've been performing over the last 4 or 5 years... and ya know what, I AIN'T just handing it out willy nilly!! That folder represents an invesment of time and energy, that I'm not about to completly devalue by copying... You don't just hand out phone numbers of pub managers and gig contacts do you?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:21 PM

Yeah, e-mail me JH and I'll translate!

Oho! Funny typo alert! Feel "BEER"??? "BETTER"!!!

Rattlebang keys, punch, ENTER, BLAMMMM!

~John Hardly's FRIEND (Helluva lot better than being Some Poohead's SECRETARY!)


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:24 PM

CH, you are the only Mudcatter I have run into yet that is here NOT to just SHARE. (Except for total flamers and whack jobs.)

So NOW I get it.

~S~


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: MMario
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:30 PM

a great many people use text browsers - especially people who are associated with educational systems - or who are on slow phone lines , or who have limited cache capacity, or who just don't like the "bells and whistles". -

for example - NONE of my nieces and nephews have been able to utilize their standard browsers through their college networks. (And we are NOT talking East Podunk U. here, we are talking highly accredited and respected Universities.) As they really had no choice in the matter - they were restricted to text browsers.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:31 PM

To me, mudcat is first and formost a tool for me to use to find information I want... after that, if I can then help someone who's looking for lyrics that I have, I'm more than happy... but to post my whole collection... nope... Music is my livelyhood... and that folder is part of it...

We all gotta have our secrets and out tricks...


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:35 PM

OK, here's one for you. Pre-formatted text displays line breaks simply where you hit the enter key. No <br>s required. EXCEPT at Mudcat. You still need <br>s here.

I have no idea why this doesn't work at Mudcat, but it would certainly save a bit of work if we could just type <pre> in at the beginning and </pre> at the end of a song. The chord positioning would work too.

This is still something one has to learn how to do.

If this were an e-mail list or newsgroup, things would work the way Clinton would want. They could also easily display our return e-mail addresses, real or faked, the way Bruce O wants. It's HTML based, though, and probably will remain so. I don't think all the searches - songs, members' posts, threads, etc, would be possible if this forum weren't HTML based. Even if they were, converting would be nothing I'd even dream of Max to consider.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:38 PM

See Jeri.. that's what I asked above.. apparently I don't need the br tag to add line breaks...

since when has THIS been the case?

No br tags in this post...

;-)


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: IvanB
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:55 PM

Well, Clinton, let's see here: you've offered to let us know if you've a song you think others would like, and. if we PM you with our email addy, you'll send us an email with the lyrics. So, as I see it, if 100 people PM you for the lyrics, you'll open your Personal Page some number of times (assuming all the requests won't come in one session online) to read them, you'll open your email program the same number of times, type in 100 email addresses, either cut and paste or attach the lyrics to 100 pieces of email and send. And all this has saved you the trouble of entering 20 or 30 line breaks? Somehow I don't see the economy of it. And, remember, once you post the offer, it's here for the foreseeable future at least, so you'd better keep all your offered lyrics where they can be easily found so you can fulfill requests 2 or 3 years down the road.

Yeah, HTML probably ain't the best thing to ever come down the pike. But I also know from experience that when you make a change such as going to plaintext in the forum instead of html, you're probably going to be introducing a host of other problems which will need solving. So I doubt that it's just Max's recalcitrance (as you seem to think) that's keeping the MC Forum in html format. And a number of posters have offered to format the stuff for you, which would involve just one email as opposed to possibly hundreds - so what's the beef?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:32 PM

There have been two recent threads:

Mudcat Changes Coming, Suggestions Here
Mudcat Design Suggestions

Read through these, your suggestion may already have been submitted. If not, post a polite constructive suggestion and I'm sure Joe and Max will take note of it.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:34 PM

Thanks, Big Mick, for pointing out the money thing.

Mudcat is a NON-PROFIT which does NOT pay any of its employees! It exists through the timeless generosity of Max, Bert and others who volunteer countless hours. If you want it better, DONATE money, NOW, not when it suits you to a "tee". That's the biggest bunch of backassward crap I've ever heard. "Make it MY way and then I'll share." Bullshit! You don't hear Art Thieme, Sandy Paton and a host of others saying that; holding their knowledge and songs close to their chests because they don't want to do a little bit of extra typing.

If Max had more consistent donations to use for equipment, people, etc. these things would get ironed out faster. As it is, you can work with or be a "whiney titty-baby." Maybe you should start singing that old song "I don't wanna play in your yard!"

kat


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:50 PM

UBB has preformatted HTML, but I HATE the layout of UBB boards.......it's awful, and the Mudcat layout/format is so much more flexible.......you can basically do what you want to with it, instead of having built in auto slots. Just my opinion.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:04 PM

Couldn't we do, for instance, Sorcha, the Mudcat on a UBB board with only one slot? Seems to me we could... For those of you who are unfamilliar with UBB coded MB's, go to

http://www.armourarchive.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=7&SUBMIT=Go

For a good example of a UBB MB... it's armour related, but it's their Off Topic board...

Post a test post and see all the features you can have... preformatted text, spellchecker, preview posts, auto URL's, auto image links... I kinda like UBB myself...

What is it about the layout of UBB you don't like Sorcha.. I'm very curious to hear..

;-)


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:15 PM

Clinton, you're on target in one respect: A thread with a title like "I've posted my last song to Mudcat!" gets a hell of a lot more attention than "Max...please simplify song formatting!" And certainly comments like "Mudcat Sucks!" get more attention than "Mudcat is a great site that is seriously flawed in the following ways..."

Now, I think ,CH, that you come to the forum for much more than the acquisition and distribution of songs. I've seen your posts on any number of topics from tech to bullcrap, so I also think you are being a bit devious about your reasons for being here. You impress me as someone who gets the occasional charge out of being an a$$hole, and that's not meant as an insult because I have some of the same inclinations.

I do agree that making it easier to cut and paste songs in original format to this forum would make things easier for all of us. You've got everyone's attention. Now relax.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:24 PM

Well, I have moaned and groaned a bit about having to use long codes for diacritical marks. Even then I was mostly upset that these characters (for instance accented letters) often appeared okay when first posted and then mutated whenever Mudcat went through technical overhauls. There are various ways to create these characters but only one set of codes that seems to work on all html systems.

I have to say that enabling line breaks would make life easier, especially for new contributors. But I think it's fine to need html codes for different font sizes, colours, formats (bold, italic), clickable links.

My overall reaction to needing the use of these codes at Mudcat is that it was a great learning experience for me. Lots of people gave advice and I have felt a certain amount of pride in being able to manipulate text by using codes. BIG Mick - isn't that how you feel when you write about Alison in multicolour glory? That such a marvellous woman deserves the effort you take to do this code (at least once; you probably saved the model to copy and paste again and again)?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Bert
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:34 PM

Here's a personal opinion from Bert - NOT OFFICIAL

Those of you who have read the "who are you?" threads will know that I am a designer at heart. I've designed many things from Nuclear heat exchangers to sewage treatment plants and also quite a bit of software.

One of the hardest things about being a designer is learning that you have to accept compromises.

Take something we all know about, a car for instance. A designer COULD make a car that goes 300 miles an hour but he would have to accept that such a car would not behave too well in city traffic and would probably cost more than most buyers would be willing to pay.

That same goes with software. One has to balance things such as... the programming tools available, simplicity of use, functionality, screen real estate, economic feasability, performance, reliability, maintenance, support, etc.

Now I've compared this forum with some others out there and think that Max has done a very good job and has produced a valuable tool that is not TOO difficult for most users to understand.

Now if you think that you can improve on any of the compromises that he has had to make then I'm sure a polite email to him volunteering your services to make the necessary changes would be most welcome.

Bert. I will repeat THIS IS A PERSONAL OPINION.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:05 PM

All the HTML I've learnt has been because I need it for Mudcat. And I see that as a very useful bonus for coming here.

As has been pointed out, it's not at all hard to fiddle around with programs like Word, and get whatever you want to post into whatever shape you want to post it, and just copy it across.

The beauty of the Mudcat is its simplicity and flexibility where it matters, far better than any other place I've come across, even the ones with more bells and whistles. Sticking in an improvement here and a modification here would put that at risk. I'd far sooner put up with having to work a tiny bit harder posting things sometimes, and learning useful stuff in the process of getting round the limitations and restrictions. (For example finding a program which has enabled me to spellcheck my posts.)

I'm increasing coming to agree with the view that any change that isn't necessary should be resisted. Long live King Lud.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:36 PM

piffle!...I am an old coot who never heard of HTML and used computers till 5 years ago, and I can post a song or put chord notation in!...takes very little practice and only a few bits of HTML to deal with it all.

You can't expect to be spoon-fed everything, Clinton...if you don't want to do the 'basics', I suppose we'll just have to survive on the 8000+ songs we already have......

sorry, just my opinion.....(I can drive a stick shift car too, and program a VCR)

(and re:SD, I have fixed it. To do what you tried, you need to type <br> JoeClone.

all you need to *display* HTML instead of executing it is THIS LITTLE PROGRAM


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:37 PM

Oooooh, Bill, can you come over and program my VCR?

Alex


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:45 PM

yup...send ticket..I have good friends near Seattle I'd like to visit. *grin*

(that's my 'parlor trick'...programming a strange VCR without looking at the instructions)


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:50 PM

Mine too! What I hate about UBB--alternating colors, no trace function, thread originator can delete and entire thread with one click, (although the "poster only Edit" button is nice, then we could fix our own spelling,etc. errors but no body elses), and, most important, Max's choices would be limited by using UBB.

Learning basic HTML certainly did not hurt me any, and typing four more chars after pasting lyrics is just not that big a problem for me. Very seldom have I had to type in all the lyrics. Once in a while, yes, but not often. JoeClones are always willing to fix minor typos, so I don't worry about it too much.

Hey, in 1998, I could play Solitaire on a computer but that was all......I was totally computer/Internet illiterate, and I have come a long way, baby, most of it thanks to Mudcat and the TechieHelpers here.

Thanks again, all you guys!! (dragged kicking and screaming into the computer age, and now I love it!)


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Burke
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 09:07 PM

A little confused here. CH said If I could copy and paste the way the rest of the net works, Hell... I'd be tempted to post the 200-300 songs I have on this beast... Just to add 'em to the Database...; but when an offer was made to help with same was made ...

Oh I get it, hyperbole.

When you hit enter twice, you do get the paragraphs. It's been that way as long as I've been here. You need the br line endings so your verses aren't double spaced.

Have you ever copied text from a web page to some text editor & gone nuts getting rid of all the line breaks & leading spaces? Or ended up with all those long line, short line email messages because of quotes? I don't post a lot of lyrics here, but I've lost track of how much time I spend in personal word processing on messing with that stuff that copies just as it was on the page. I know how to save a text, but if there's just a little text, it's a real pain.

I guess my point is a bit like Bert's. There are tradeoffs. Knowing how Mudcat works, I don't have to bother getting rid of some big spaces from copy&paste that I can see as I post in that quote above because I know they will close up. I do have to put other formatting stuff in.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:13 PM

Tá, a cara Philippa, is maith an t-anlann a t-ocras. If one wants to learn it enough, they will figure out how and it will become easier. Couple up the knowledge of the system with a little knowledge of shortcuts and it is not hard at all. In fact it makes the use of html an asset.

I have been thinking about this thread a lot as I have been about the business of union organizing today. While I don't appreciate derogatory comments about the Mudcat or Max and his helpers, I think I understand Clinton's aim a little better. He and I don't agree on some basic issues, but as I reread this thread I think what he is after is the betterment of our community. I don't like his methodology, and I have a very hard time with smartass comments directed at people who do this at great personal expense to themselves. But I do believe that the intent was to make it a better tool. I know that his contributions here have contributed to all of our understanding of the music to which we have dedicated ourselves. One day soon, I hope I can make my way through the Windsor tunnel and meet him at the Bar-b-que and talk about this shit. I think I will meet a person that I like. And I hope we can work out our differences. But in the meantime let's let up a bit. Clinton, sorry for that part of my comments that came off smartassed. And I hope you can see that it isn't your desire for a more efficient way to post that has some of us riled up.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:31 PM

Well.........I've watched this whole thing unfold and basically Clinton has these occasional 'roid flare-ups that make him crank out some smartass shit........a syndrome I'm familiar with myself. I keep thinking that for every one of these, there are a hundred where he can be a supportive smart-ass and a hundred more where he's a pretty fair guy. Once again, I recognize the syndrome myself. In this case we disagree. Who cares..........

Max is working on some things I know and I hope they work out, but until they do, I don't mind the HTML stuff. Like a lot of others, this place has taught me things I would never have thought of trying and I like the fact that I can do it. Bert's right, everything is often a tradeoff and I want to know what I give up for auto line breaks.

So Clinton, bark up my ass and I'll bark up yours, but like Mick, I look forward to having a few with you sometime so we can yell at each other and roll on the floor laughing.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 04:21 AM

Well, I hate drivers who change lanes all the time. And the way I can never find my drill when I need it. And the way my boss always asks if I have a minute just before I am due to go home. And, and, and.... AAArrrggghhh!

So thats it! Feck off the lot of you. I'm annoyed at something so everyone has to know. This is the last time I'll ever drive, or do a job at home, or go to work. Or ever do anything. And no-one tell me I'm wrong because I am better than and have less time than every other pleb on this site. I work for a living you know and don't have time for all this. And I am going to take my ball home if you don't play nice...;-)

Cheers

Dave the spoilt brat.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Sir Thomas More
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:02 AM

Oh..er...ah...excuse me. I'm bolloxed. I've come to the wrong place! Ever so sorry! Sir Thomas


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:17 AM

On the subject of helpful editors to ease the job of preparing HTML for posting here, Pene Azul has recommended an HTML editor called Arachnophilia. The program is free from a financial point of view but in using it you agree to the author's CareWare Idea that obligates the licensee as follows:

"So here is my deal: stop whining for an hour, a day, a week, your choice, and you will have earned your copy of Arachnophilia. Say encouraging words to young people, make them feel welcome on the planet Earth (many do not). Show by example that we don't need all we have in order to be happy and productive."

Interesting concept eh?

CH, I sure liked Spaw's comments about the value of having you around here. Put me down for what he said as well.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:56 PM

Sure thing Mick... but I don't do the Tunnel BBQ... You'll find me in one of the back snugs at the Kildare House... corner of Kildare and Wyandotte... the best pub in town...

See ya and spaw there someday eh!

But ahhh... no ass-barking o.k.? Encourages halatosis...

LOL!!

;-)

Sorcha??

"What I hate about UBB--alternating colors, "

What alternating colours? i'm not sure I know what you mean...

"no trace function, thread originator can delete and entire thread with one click, "

What's wrong with that? It's perfect... You've never had a thread that you wish the original posteer would delete? :-)

"(although the "poster only Edit" button is nice, then we could fix our own spelling,etc. errors but no body elses)"

UBB moderators can edit anyones posts... and yes.. between teh new spell checker and the Edit Post, spelling errors and multi-posts would be a thing of the past...

"and, most important, Max's choices would be limited by using UBB."

How so? Limited by what or to what? Near as I can tell you can do just about anything with UBB that any MB need or wants...

:-)


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:32 AM

It's friggin' date, Clinton. Sometime in the near future I will be in the area visiting in-laws and I am going to jump in the car and head to see you. Guinness is on me. And ass barking is Spaw's specialty. Seen him re-create the Aurora Borealis in the men's room of a restaraunt in Cincinatti once. Scared the hell out of the cleaning lady.

Mick


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:39 AM

LOL!!!

Too funny Bmick...

;-)


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Peg
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 11:06 AM

Your complaint seems to be that it is too time-consuming and too much effort to type in line breaks, etc.

Yet you apparently have LOTS of time to complain, bitch, moan, oh, and make all sorts of offensive comments in other threads that have NOTHING to do with music.

You are acting like an ungrateful, boorish jerk.

Why not go start up your own website? That'll show everybody, won't it?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Eric Berne
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 11:11 AM

Yet another NIGYSOB player!


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Robo
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 01:22 PM

"Aw . . . the humanity!"

Nuff said, again, I hope.

Rob-o


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: UB Ed
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 02:24 PM

Peg, the timestamp indicates you posted the following at 10:56 today:

"...Remember to love the people still in your life. Remember every human needs compassion: even that kid serving your cappucino, even that grouchy bus driver, even the dirty homeless woman muttering to herself under the awning.

Live large, with love and lust, smell the roses, be good to yourself and others..."

You've received alot of admirative support for that thought.

Yet 12 minutes later you post the above to Clint.

My goodness, he must be your red flag! Can't we think of Clint as a dirty homeless women?

Peace be with you and your Thought for the Day

Ed


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: RichM
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 05:47 PM

I'm grateful that Mudcat exists.
If I have to type bracket-br-bracket once, and cut'n'paste it to the end of each line, small price to pay.

Thanks, Max, and all, for Mudcat!

Rich


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 05:52 PM

I still use a Text Browser, Lynx.

It does a wonderful job. The only problem is when it gets so extended a message set, that I have to go to something else to reply with.

I say, let Clinton be. If he won't post, that is our loss. We are not going to convince him by asking him to help convert the internet to his standard, whatever that is, Mac/Windows/etc. just so we can have his posts again.

I will be sorry to miss his abilities, and hope that he will still contribute in other ways.

The world of the internet proceeds at its own pace, and none of us can change it without a lot of learning on our part.

Thanks Clinton for all the past contributions, and hope to hear from you again in the future. Looking forward to it in fact.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 05:54 PM

occasional 'roid flare-ups

Would that be steroid or android?


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 09:30 PM

Clinton is still posting, though his most recent contribution was already in the DT, and a Joe Clone had to format it for him.

need words Reynard/Tally Ho Hounds Away


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 09:41 PM

I worked pretty hard to type up instructions on how to use search-and-replace to put line breatks in lyrics. It's in the FAQ - under the message titled Posting Lyrics (click). If you have a word processor, it's a trick you should learn, and it really isn't very hard. It's something you can use in a lot of situations, not just at Mudcat. If you had spent your time learning how to do it instead of typing your gripes in this thread, you'd know how to do it by now.

But yeah, Max is well aware that people would prefer to have automatic line breaks. He had it working pretty well in the experimental version of Mudcat, and I used it for about three months - and then it crashed. It isn't hard to do - you just click a box on ColdFusion (the basic program that runs Mudcat), and then ColdFusion automatically inserts line breaks. Unfortunately, it creates some problems that cause us headaches. We could have the line breaks, but then we'd have problems with some clickable links and other things. If we didn't allow HTML in forum messages, it would be very easy to have the automatic line breaks - but most people like the HTML once they learn a little bit of it.

But rest assured that the improvement is in the works, and should be perfected any time now. I 've been monitoring all the suggestion threads and I gave Max a long list of things people wanted - he was able to implement almost every one of them in the experimental Mudcat, but there have some bugs.

You piss me off, Clinton. Max works hard, and he works without pay. The least you could do to show a little gratitude is type a few line breaks.

I will admit that adding line breaks by search-and-replace is difficult or impossible for people who use WEBTV. For people who use a computer, it's very simple. If you have a word processor, you ought to learn how to do search-and-replace. It's a simple, essential skill in word processing.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: Posting Songs at Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:08 PM

Well, maybe I should rant a little more. When you post lyrics in the forum, you are submitting them for consideration for inclusion in the Digital Tradition Folk Song Database, which has international renown as a resource for folk music information. Since that's the case, I think people should make reasonable efforts to ensure accuracy, completeness, correct spelling and format, and songwriter attribution and copyright information. There is a section in the FAQ that describes the Digital Tradition Format, and that's the format people should follow when they are posting songs.

People have wondered why I say it takes us a half an hour to "harvest" a song that's been posted. It would go a lot quicker if people would remember to search first to see if the song has already been posted and or it it's in the Digital Tradition; and if they'd submit songs in proper format. It also helps if you give background information, and tell us how the song is related to other songs we may already have.

Yeah, we'd like to see people use a little care and scholarship when they post songs. It would take a lot of guesswork out of the job of harvesting.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:34 AM

I've just had a look at these UBB's that Clinton rates so highly. In fairness, they do seem to be well thought out and have some nice features but there seem to be a few drawbacks with them.

Firstly, for a thread, the appear to kick out a lot more HTML than Mudcat does.

Secondly, they are a collection of perl/cgi scripts and I'm not sure about how they go about file/database handling but I can't see it being anywhere near as powerful and flexible as Max's solution which uses a relational database and ColdFusion. I don't know if my observations are related to this but they may be. In the 3 sites I visited, a number of the threads are archived and appear to be made read only and the search facilites are rather more limited.

A futher point is that Max can add more features to this system rather than being tied to someone elses design.

My conclusion is that even if we do have the odd niggle here, Max is to be congratulated on designing an excellent system which appears to offer significant advantages over a system produced by a company who's speciality is message boards. A little bit of HTML seems an even smaller price to pay!

Jon


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Ned Ludd
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 09:22 AM

Keep it up, folks! Amazing, how humans commandeer technology to attack one another! (or maybe not) Even the ones who claim piety...I'm going back to the woods... Ned


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Tweedie
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 10:17 AM

In UNIX you would use
sed -e "s/$/<BR>/" source >output
to append a html break to each line. (Where source is your plain ascii sourcefile and output is the outputfile ready for going to Mudcat.
You can get UNIX tools like SED for PCs. It's the only thing that makes the Windows OS tolerable.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 10:56 AM

What ever happened to words? I am starting to understand HTML (no idea what it means but I will happily use it) but what is MT UBB SED SOD etc and what sort of word is feck!


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:11 AM

Feck is phonetic transliteration of a lower-class rendering of a time-honored Anglo-Saxon perjorative, Ms Duck. "sed" is a software utility found in most versions of the UNIX operating system for managing large numbers of lines of text or other characters in files. A FAQ is a list of "Frequently Asked Questions" and their answers. A BB is a "Bulletin Board", an early form of discussion group structure in which people come on-line using computers and post messages and comments, etc. "UBB" stands for Ultimate Bulletin Board. Not sure on that one. What it is is a popular architecture for making bulletin board sites, including its own set of markup tags called UBB Code.UBBCode™ is a variation on the HTML tags you may already be familiar with. Basically, it allows you to add functionality or style to your message that would normally require HTML.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 12:11 PM

As I said before, Max knows how to do automatic line breaks, and he has been working with that in the experimental version of Mudcat. I used the automatic line breaks for about three months, until the experimental Mudcat crashed. Jeri and Jon used it for about a month. The automatic line breaks cause some restrictions that limit the flexibility of what we can do here. They make it very difficult to do the fancy stuff we've been able to do in the FAQ and other PermaThreads. Once you're used to doing your own HTML, you get very frustrated with HTML editors and message board functions that put HTML where you might not want it. We are working on resolving those problems.
Max chose flexibility over convenience, and that's why you have to type the line breaks. I now realize that is is a great burden upon some of you to type <br> at the end of every line in lyrics, and that this has caused great stress and heartache for some. Get over it.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: Lyr Add: MARTIN
From: Luke
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM

Martin

Will you go to Oslo, Martin?
Will you go to old Norway?
Will you meet your true love, Martin,
Standing on the Quay?
Will you kiss her? Will you hold her?
Retell the love you've often told her?
They say love is warmer, winter colder,
There in Old Norway.

And will you bring your truelove homeward, Martin,
Back from old Norway,
To the northern California coastline
Cities by the bay?
Will you woo her? Will you try her?
Or will you lasso and hogtie her?
Or maybe money's what would buy her
Back from old Norway.

Now I see you're staying, Martin,
There in old Norway.
Lots of changes for you, Martin,
Things to learn to say.
It takes a strong heart to endeavor
Ties to family hard to sever,
But you're the one both kind and clever
There in old Norway.

Yes I've met Camilla, Martin,
The girl from old Norway.
I must admit, dear nephew Martin,
She's so tres enchantée.
Stepped as lightly as a feather.
You just looked proud and right together.
An ocean couldn't break the tether
Now you're in old Norway.


Though we'll miss you, our dear Martin,
There in old Norway,
If your heart's already there, dear Martin,
What can a loved one say?
We'll buy a brand new box of tissue,
Wait for letters that you issue.
In our hearts we hug and kiss you
There in old Norway.

Line Breaks <br> added. It took me about 30 seconds, and I had to type <br> only once to add 48 line breaks.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 12:38 PM

amen, Joe...It seems to me it's like someone wanting an 18wheeler truck for hauling LOTS of stuff...and then demanding an automatic transmission in it! Folks, those things require you learn to shift gears! Small price.

'Maybe' there's a way to have the best of both worlds, and if there is, Max and his crew are likely to find it, but they have a business to run, and do this in their spare time. Let 'em mess with it, you might be surprised what comes out.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 12:45 PM

You go, Joe!

Alex


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Peg
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 12:45 PM

Max and Joe and Bert and the clones cannot be thanked enough for what they do for us, free of charge...

they deserve our support and gratitude, not our picayunish complaints.

I work with a large non-profit website, the founders of which do most of the work, gratis. Tirelessly, professionally, beautifully. Nothing tees them off more than people who have nothing to offer but gripes.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Mark Clark
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 01:21 PM

I too think the technical trade-offs Max has made are just about perfect. The added flexibility of HTML input gives us the power to express our postings in lots of different forms, a feature we need given the variety material and modes of expression we have here.

Any suggestions I had were posted in the threads provided for the purpose. It's not as though Max hasn't asked us for ideas, he has. Max has done a great job and works hard to do even better. Let's get off his back and be grateful for all he has done.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 06:43 PM

"Feck is phonetic transliteration of a lower-class rendering of a time-honored Anglo-Saxon perjorative"

'Fraid not! It's Irish Gaelic, which coincidentally sounds similar to the 'other' word, which isn't Anglo-Saxon in origin, either!!

'Feck' is a fairly innocuous expression, which is why it was allowed on the pre-watershed 'Father Ted' on British TV.

Can any Irishmen out there back me up?!


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 06:52 PM

feck (f‚k) n. Scot. obsolete.a. worth; value.
b. amount; quantity.
c. the greater part; the majority.
[C15 (Scottish dialect) fek, short for EFFECT]
(Source - Collins English Dictionary)

This is where 'feckless' comes from, but isn't the Irish use of the word.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:00 PM

Feck I mean click here!


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:05 PM

I don't think the BBC would have given a feck what kind of vowel they had in the word in Father Ted. "Feck" was funnier though, for some odd reason. The e gives it more body, more explosive power. With a "u" it sounds more like a grunt.

I suspect the Gaelic is actually cognate with the Latin facio/fecit, and has nothing to do with English expletives in origin.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 12:10 AM

I like "feck", but I really love "frell" which is used in place of "fuck" on one of the best scifi series on television, FARSCAPE!


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Bernard
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 05:08 AM

Farscape?! Thought that was an Internet browser... ;o)


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Burke
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 10:47 PM

Mrs. Duck, you got a few answers, but not all. I think MT is CH's reference to mousethief. HTML=Hyper-Text Markup Language. It began as a subset of SGML (standard generalized markup language), that's been around since at least the late 80's. Since it's all coded using plain ASCII text, all of our computers (Widoz, Apple, Unix) can read it if we have a program like Netscape, Internet Explorer or Opera that can read it. It's better than unmarked plain text because we get hyperlinks and content formatting like headings, bold or italics, that make reading easier.


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 11:30 PM

Bernard, have you been "Farscaped?" **BG**


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Luke
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 07:34 AM

Joe,

Thank you for untangling my song about Norway. I thought if I wrote in word 2001 then pasted it that it would just come out right. I was wrong. I will be trying to figure out html when I have a spare moment. I have none right now. Til then, thanks again.

Luke


Hi, Luke - If you type a document in Word and save it as HTML, you can do a "view source" on the HTML and come up with something that has all the HTML tags visible. When you paste it into a Mudcat reply box, the tags have to be visible (the tags are those things inside the angle brackets). You'll see that word adds lots of HTML that you don't need - all you need are the <br> line breaks. Therefore, you're better off using the "replace" function in the "edit" menu in Word. You'll se a button marked "more" and then "special" - search for paragraph marks and replace with a paragraph mark AND <br> - choose "replace all," and you'll have all the line breaks in an instant.
If that's too difficult to understand, you can type one line break, and then highlight and copy [CTRL-C] it; and then paste [CTRL-V] it wherever you like. "Replace all" is a slick trick that you'll find you use again and again, but the copy-paste technique ain't bad, either.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 12:17 PM

"Fuck" we are told came from the Danish. Or was it the dutch? Both are ironic because they hardly can replace heir population at current birth rates. :-)

Alex


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Subject: RE: I've posted my last song on Mudcat
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 06:50 PM

Kat - no, but I've been frequently MicroShafted!


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