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BS: Mississippi Flag Vote
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Subject: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:56 PM The Mississippi State Flag has become a subject of controversy (as many other flags have), and the good people of this state will be voting soon to replace or keep it. The flag has the "Stars and Bars" in its corner, which is the problem. It is said to be a symbol of hatred. I personally do not think hateful, nor bigoted thoughts whenever I view the flag. I see it as a symbol of a state which has struggled with its own past and has overcome much of its erroneous attitudes. I vote to keep the flag. I realize that almost every 'Catter is from elsewhere, therefore this is of little interest and impact to you. Nonetheless, I would like to hear what my 'Catting Friends have to say. Thanks, khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:35 PM Every symbol has it's adherents. Every symbol is dispicable to some one. If a case may be made for banning the Swastika, then a case can be made for banning the Stars and Bars. But a case can also be made for banning the Stars and Stripes, or Black Power t-shirts or Gay Pride parades. And don't give me any stuff about years of oppression and bigotry and the rest of that being adequate reason. It's not. If something is offensive to someone, then it is offensive to them. Period. Just because one group has a good PR setup does not mean that their cause is right or just or even sensible. You can ALWAYS find something to offend you if you look hard enough. To a small boy with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So how do I feel about the question at hand? Unless everything that offends others is banned as well, the flag stays. FLAME ON! troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: JedMarum Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:51 PM I think it is right for the state to handle it through the referendum process, as they are - and it appears that a rather large segment of the MS public finds the historical and traditional value of the flag outweighs any newer connotations. The poll I read said the black population would not vote to remove it, and the total population favored keeping it something 2 to 1. It sounds like a non-issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:04 PM I really wish that before everybody gets on the bandwagon about this flag that we all get our facts straight! This is not the 'Stars and Bars' It is known as the Confederate Battleflag which is based on the cross of St Andrew, like the Scottish flag. The Stars and Bars was the First National flag of the Confederacy. It had three horizontal bars, (red, white and red) with a blue field containing a circle of seven white stars. This flag was the official flag of the Confederate States until it was replaced by the 'Stainless Banner' on May 1, 1863 and remained the official flag until March 4, 1865. The Stainless Banner was a white flag with the battle flag in the upper corner. this was too often mistaken as a white flag of surrender and had the Confederate congress met in 1865 would have a red stripe added to the outer vertical edge. I can uderstand some folks would rather 'sweep history under the carpet' but would appreciate if they took the time to learn the correct facts before they tried to rewrite MY history and try to supress MY HERITAGE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: JedMarum Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:05 PM Hmmmmm, I just rechecked the news article - it seems I had one stat just backwards; just over half the black population support removing the symbol from the flag. Not a large majority but a majority none-the-less. The entire population polled favored leaving the flag as it is, about 2 to 1. Here are two interesting articles about the poll: details about the AP poll and analysis of the poll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:12 PM Banjer, you are right of course and I know better. Time to switch back to caffinated coffee. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:15 PM No one has 'banned' the swastika- it is publicly and legally worn by the Aryan Nations and National Front types.Fortunately, no U.S. state has chosen to make it part of its state flag. If more than a third of the population of Mississippi is non-white (1990 Census) and they find it offensive, then I think its not quite so simple, if in our Republic the rights and feelings of a substantial portion of the population are to be respected. At the time the battle flag came into being the Black slave population of Mississippi outnumbered the White population by over three to one- and I suspect the majority of the population then found it pretty objectionable. I also suspect that it might be offensive to a good portion of the white population today as well- especially those who remember Goodwin, Schwerner and Cheney and other atrocities committed under the aegis of that flag much more recently than 1861-1865. This is not a case of 'banning' the flag, but of the use of it as a symbol representing ALL the people of the state- for which it appears to be singularly inappropriate in this day and age. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Bill D Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:34 PM people could still put the Confederate battle flag on their windows, tattoo it on their chests and make it the background for their webpages....but I think it should NOT be part of official state emblems. I don't care what 'traditional' and patriotic excuses you hear, many people who display it are making a political statement about values and, by extension, racial attitudes...Yeah, I know the arguments about 'history'...but you asked.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: katlaughing Date: 12 Apr 01 - 11:58 PM I cringe everytime I see a Bubbatruck, here in Wyoming, which has a sticker of the Confedarate flag on it. It is not a generalisation to say they are always white, male, and usually have a gun rack in the window as well as beer stickers and/or ultra conservative bumper stickers. That is what the flag/symbol represents to me and I consider it racist. I agree with you, Bill D. Just in case some have not seen the Mississippi flag, HERE is a discussion forum about it with a picture. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 13 Apr 01 - 03:04 AM If I lived there, I'd vote against it. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 13 Apr 01 - 04:31 AM If you go to the link that Kat provides and look at the poll results, it would seem that the 'no change' vote is the people's choice. The proposed 20 star flag is very similar to the Confederate States First National Flag! The only difference being the number of stars in the field and the top bar being blue instead of red. It will be interesting to see how the folks of Mississippi will vote. I recently went to Georgia for a weekend visit and despite that state's flag having been changed, many places still display the flag that was voted out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Whistle Stop Date: 13 Apr 01 - 07:56 AM The Confederacy (my ancestors) lost the war. Their flag should no longer be flown by the government; what individuals do is up to them. The swastika is not banned in this country for individuals to display (although it is in Germany), but you certainly won't find it flown over the Capitol. It's also worth keeping in mind that the Confederate battle flag was not part of the Mississippi state flag after the Civil War. It added to Mississippi's state flag in the 1950s, as a symbol of defiance to the federal government and resistance to integration. It has no place there now. If the people of Mississippi vote to retain it, it will shame them in the eyes of the rest of the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: pattyClink Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:21 AM I live here, and at bottom don't care what the flag looks like. What I will vote 'no' about is the incessant demands of the once heroic NAACP and professional-victim leaders running from statehouse to statehouse demanding action on a manufactured issue. I am sending a message, like Jesse is always doing. My message is to accept that the civil rights battles were won and it is time for Jesse and a generation of lawyers to either go get a real job or direct their rage at real injustice. This election is going to cost millions of dollars, which is the fault of cowardly legislators, as well as the people who demanded action. When it is over, if the flag is changed, next we will have demands to take down monuments, change road names, close Battlefield Park, whatever. If it's not changed, we'll have more lawsuits, and unfortunately the end result will not be harmonious race relations, it will be polarization and ANOTHER generation of redneck kids taught to resent black people. It's not about productive change, it's about scab-picking. What if you took the same energy and money and had a huge network of 'sting' teams running around rooting out real employment and job discrimination until we got rid of it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:31 AM Let the people of Mississippi decide. If enough people want the flag changed, maybe they'll care enough to turn out and vote their mind. If they don't, then they can't really complain about it, can they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,TheYank Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:46 AM
Per pattyClink : |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:20 PM At a meeting last week, I listened as many voiced their views on this subject. I realized that the flag symbolized something that I had never considered to several of the men. Alienation...not the type that first comes to mind, but another. One man whom I consider a friend; a man who has never in the years that I have known him, shown disrespect or racial bias to anyone, expressed this to us. "I am white, middle-aged and I feel lost as hell. I feel like I am expected to feel guilty for being me. I have owned no slaves, oppressed no man. Yet, I am being oppressed." "I treat all equally, red, green , black, white. Sure, the blacks were abused, but I didn't abuse them. But, what am I seeing? We have BET on TV; what would happen if we produced WET? There's the NAACP, where is the NAAWP?" "We have Miss Black America, even though we have had a Black Miss America. What if we started a Miss White America?" "A few years ago, we saw Malcom X tee shirts everywhere. What if we wore Delay Beckwith t-shirts?" "We can be offended, but we can't offend. And now, my flag is under fire. Where will it end? Shall we reverse it all and submit ourselves to be slaves to the Blacks? Will that even it all out?" "I'll fight for anyone to gain them equality, but, I'll grant no one the right to superiority." I understand his frustration. His voice is as important as Jesse Jackson's, Pat Buchannan's, or anyone else'. At this point, I see no end to the racial disharmonies. I have no answers, nor have I met anyone who does. The flag is not the issue. It is the present focal point of a deep rooted sickness in humanity. That is the issue khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:32 PM What really bugs me is that the NAACP goes after stuff like this instead of things like poverty, education, drug addiction, crime, teen pregnancy, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:38 PM I agree with the tenor that visiting the sins of the parents upon the children is not exactly fair. Not only have I not oppressed anyone, but some of the people complaining about historical oppression aren't being oppressed themselves... And I'm a big fan of history, and maintaining historical what-have-you's, but the crux here to me is that the symbol so opposed wasn't historically part of the flag, it was added in the 50's as a F*** You to the civil rights movement. And while I don't think that the civil rights wars have been won, there comes a time to Just Grow Up. Taking that off the flag now would come under that heading, to me. But I'm not black, and my ancestors were either Quakers who wouldn't own slaves, or Jews who were having their own troubles and weren't oppressing blacks either. So some would say I have no right to this opinion... sorry, anybody who minds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Irish sergeant Date: 13 Apr 01 - 07:49 PM As far as I see, the flag isn't the issue the attitudes are. The "Southern Cross" (Is that the proper term for the battle flag, Banjer?) was added in the 1950s in response to the Civil Rights movement. Let all the people of Mississippi decide, which is what I think should have been done in SOuth Carollina and I believe was. Having said that, let me say that I am a New Yorker of Canadian extraction (Dad was born in Ontario) and My personal perceptions may be colored by location. THe flag meaning the Confederate battle flag has been used by some who have stained that banner with bigotry's blotch. I don't mean the soldiery of the SOuthern states. I mean those who would hide behind the flag or any flag to support the cause of oppression. THey're not only white people! I just as vehemently oppose the idea that as a white person should pay "Reparations" to some one for something that wasn't done to them. There is a word for that FRAUD! Pick yourselves up. I'll be glad to lend a hand but don't try to committ extortion under the guise of "Equality" I don't believe that the flag of a separetist movement belongs on a government building but I do believe that it should be the decision of the people of Mississippi. One point to consider, The state of Hawaii is the same one they used before annexation, as is that of Texas. Would we ban those? I would think before answering and remember that what we ban because we don't like it today may well result in far more precious rights being lost. Just one dyed in the wool Yankee's opinion. Kindest reguards, Neil PS Banjer, KImC and anyone in the renacting community doing Bull Run this summer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Amos Date: 13 Apr 01 - 11:14 PM Hell, I guess the voters of Mississippi can decide what flag they want for the future without changing the past. It certainly would not be advisable to reconstruct their attitudes about it; I notice the Native Americans got the whole presentation of the Little Big Horn battle field revised to include both sides of the battle. Banning a symbol is not what should occur - choosing one is. It makes as much sense to ban a symbol as it does to yell at a thermometer because your fuel bills weren't paid. And it certainly is nobody else's business what an individual Mississippian decides he wants to have as his or her state symbol. There is no other origin for the decision. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 14 Apr 01 - 12:59 AM No, the present State Flag of Mississippi was adopted in 1894 by the legislature. When I read some of the responses above, I thought that you were wrong about the flag being adopted in the fifties. I researched it. You were wrong. khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: JedMarum Date: 14 Apr 01 - 01:34 AM Truth is, it's Mississippi's choice. I not only support their right to choose, I'd support whatever choice they make. It might be so, that if you and I lived there, we would choose NOT to fly the flag. It's like smoking; I don't want to do it - but I'd fight for your right to do so. The other interesting thing to me, about this issue, is that a small majority of blacks want to make the change. nearly half of them do not. That says to me, this is more of a history and heritage issue, and not the symbol of hate that some believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Gary T Date: 14 Apr 01 - 05:29 PM Neil, the "Southern Cross" is a constellation visible only in the southern hemisphere. Like the North Star in the northern hemisphere, it is helpful for navigation. The only correct term I know for the symbol under discussion is "Confederate Battle Flag," with "Confederate Flag" generally understood to mean the same thing. The incorporation of the CBF into the Mississipi State Flag may have been in the nineteenth century, but I think it's fair to say the motivation had a lot to do with making a statement about white supremacy. While some may attach no such meaning to the CBF, the history of its post-Civil War use is such that it will never be divorced from that meaning. (Some people attach no derogatory meaning to the word "nigger," but likewise it will never be divorced from attitudes of hateful derision.) I think it's an inappropriate symbol for a modern state flag. No American alive possessed black slaves, but virtually all white Americans enjoy some degree of prosperity and privilege that is generally denied to black Americans. There was no need for a NAAWP because the entire fabric of society, government, and the economy advanced the interests of white people while largely ignoring those of colored people. Likewise, there was no need for a "Miss White America" pageant because whites were always eligible for the "Miss America" pageant. Protests that "I didn't do it" ignore the fact that you benefited from it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Irish sergeant Date: 14 Apr 01 - 06:08 PM Gary: Thank you for the correction. I thought I had read somewhere that the Confederate Battle Flag was referred to as the SOuthern cross. It is an adaptation of Saint Andrews cross. I don't argue that whites have it better in this country. My point was to the issue of reparations. I find them counter productive not only because of the views I stated above but because they ignore the issues that keep the ghettos in existance. Part of which is white America ignorring minorities in this country. The other issue is that it is far easier to place blame and attempt to sue or claim reparations rather than to work for change. Sorry, didn't mean to get on the soap box. Happy Easter all, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,truckerdave Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:03 PM Screw the history of the flag. It's what it's come to stand for. Our southern heritage(i live in MS), like the black man burned at the stake on the town square? I'd say that kind of "heritage" is best forgotten. Oh, the civil war and our grand ancestors who fought and died for "states rights"? The states right to do what, exactly? To treat people like cattle, nothing wrong with that i guess. Just part of our heritage. So according to this line of thinking, germans should proudly display the swastika as a symbol of thier "heritage". Some of my ancestors were non-white and non-christian and neither group were treated well by white folks so i may look at it a bit differently than some people but change it or no change it whatever the result that's it as far as i am concerned. Unfortunately if it stays and it looks from the polls it will, one group in particular will have a collective hissy fit forever more. Let's all see if we can guess which group. I'm done now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:34 PM Inevitably, it will stay. Even if it is voted out, it will stay. I am sorry to say that the removal of the flag (or keeping it) will solve nothing. Attitudes remain. The Bubbas will be Bubbas. The Rednecks will be rednecks. Rev. Jesse will still be Rev. Jesse. The blind will still be blind. We are swallowing camels while we strain at gnats. I am disheartened. Sit back and watch as we bite our own asses. khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 15 Apr 01 - 05:50 AM It's not our history or our heritage that needs to be shunned, but rather those that would take a symbol signifying something good and turning it into something evil. There has been mention of the German swastika..Was it not originaly a symbol used by the Native Americans? Did I not read somewhere that it signified the four seasons? No the problem is not the symbols, but all the non-thinking, sheep like morons that would follow some self serving idiot in the furtherance of his vile goals. (Adolf Hitler and Nathan Bedford Forrest, in these two cases) The way to overcome this, in my opinion, would be through education both in schools and at home. The values that I was taught are no longer widely used even today. What will it all come to fifty years from now? Screw the history of the flag ,or of anything else for that matter, is NOT the answer! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Extra Stout Date: 16 Apr 01 - 03:35 AM Re Irish sergeant's " stained that banner with bigotry's blotch". That banner IS bigotry's blotch. During and since the Civil War, a lot of smoke has been blown about state's rights, tarrifs, industrial vs. agricultural development and other B.S. to show that the Confederates had legitimate political and economic issues that led to secession. It doesn't take much research to discover that black slavery was the issue behind the war. It was in some ways like the first domino in a row, so that when a captured rebel private was asked why he was fighting, he said "'cause you fellows are down here." ( The Civil War by Shelby Foote}. No matter what an individual's motivation, the root cause was slavery. If Mississippi wants to continue under that symbol, thats O.K., as long as we all know what it stands for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 16 Apr 01 - 05:40 AM So, Extra Stout, you just put it all in a convenient nutshell for us.... It doesn't take much research to discover thatblack slavery was the issue behind the war This tells me that you think the white slavery that was going on in the north is acceptable? As for your ridiculous statement: If Mississippi wants to continue under that symbol, thats O.K., as long as we all know what it stands for. I know what that symbol means to me, and it is NOT slavery. It is the right of individuals as opposed to the oppression of government which we 'enjoy' today. Long may it wave!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 16 Apr 01 - 12:25 PM Sit back and watch as we bite our own asses. That would be interesting! I might even pay to watch that! Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Irish sergeant Date: 16 Apr 01 - 07:36 PM Extra Stout: I fully agree that the war was about slavery but there were other issues and the majority of the men who fought and died for the Confederate States were not slave holders. The majority of those boys were fighting for the reason stated by that unnamed private Shelby Foote spoke of. Consider this, and remember I speak as an American who served country and flag in combat, there is no flag that is not stained with the blotch of bigotry. The factories of the North were as vile as the slave pens were. Particularly when you factor in that lovely little idea of the company store. Ask the Native Americans if they don't think the U.S. flag is a symbol of racism. All flags are symbols of the hopes and aspirations of their people and the Confederate battle flag is no exception. I stand by my statement above. PLease read Banjer's statement above your s. He is absolutely right. I have met several people intimently involved with both issues in Miss. and South Carolina. The majority are not racists. Let's do something more constructive to fight bigotry rather than fighting over a flag. How about housing initiatives? What about, gee, I don't know getting the other person's view with out getting in a tizzy or mentoring some of these kids who need help with their school work so they have a leg to stand on when they try to escape the ghettoes or shanty towns they live in? Again, my apologies for the soap box, I'm just brainstorming outloud as it were, Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: jeepman (inactive) Date: 16 Apr 01 - 09:31 PM Slavery was real. The war was real. The flag was and is real. Let's, hide all evidence of these hateful things and pretend they did not happen. Then we can take all reference to Slavery, Flags, Hitler, and so forth from all the books and historys of man, then pretend they did not happen. SOUND LIKE 1984 NEWSPEAK? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 16 Apr 01 - 09:48 PM One simply HAS to love the 'Cat. Just when I thought that this
This tells me that you think the white slavery that was going on in the north is acceptable?
The factories of the North were as vile as the slave pens were. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 16 Apr 01 - 11:03 PM And just why do you think these statements are fatuous? Are they untrue? Have you done any research to show that they are untrue? Will you share it with the rest of us? Or are your opinions based on what you want to be true rather than what you can back up with solid proof. The fact is that a slave was a valuable piece of property while a factory worker was looked upon as a production unit that could be replaced at a moments notice. Slaves were whipped, yes, but they were also fed and cared for, as you would feed and care for a horse or cow. Factory owners- for the most part- cared nothing for their workers. In many mills, the doors were locked when the bell rang and anyone who was late didn't work that day. If you got sick and couldn't work, you lost your job. Many mills had "company towns" where the workers had to live. The housing was substandard and they paid high rents. They had to but their food and clothing in the "company store" and there were some factories that paid the workers in "company scrip" that could be spent nowhere else. If you couldn't pay the rent, you were fired and thrown out so the whole family worked children as young as 8 or 9 in some cases. The labor unions eventually ended most of the abuses but some of them persisted up into the 1930's. Slavery was wrong and the life of a slave was no picnic, but life in the factories and sweatshops of the North was every bit as bad. The only difference was that the factory workers were free but often it was only the freedom to leave one intolerable situation for another. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Lonesome EJ Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:16 AM This post copied from a previous thread on the South Carolina flag issue This is a touchy topic. In one of my first posts to the Mudcat I expressed an opinion not very far from the one expressed by Southern Initiative, that the Stars and Bars are a piece of tradition in the South that it's people have every right to display. However, when I see the Confederate flag flowing above a group of Civil War re-enactors my feeling is quite different than when I see it used by Klansmen, skinheads, and other reactionary maniacs who have no clue as to it's historical significance, but see it only as the embodiment of "white power." Sandy Paton reminded me after that post of mine that while it was true that many brave men had died fighting beneath that flag , one could not ignore the negative symbolism that had come to be attached to it, and that therefore it was unacceptable that it should be flown as a symbol for a government that presumes to represent all of it's people. I suppose that many in the South are like myself- people who can name relatives who were wounded or died in battle fighting for the Confederacy. After all, there were many thousands. Somehow it seems to profane their memory to declare this flag an obscenity. Those of us who had ancestors who were common working people or farmers, people who fought out of a sense of protecting their homes, families, States and not with any desire to protect a slave-holding economy that benefitted them not in the least,we have to face the fact that as those warriors sanctified that flag, the forces of hate that came after have dirtied it, and there is little that can now be done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Big Tim Date: 17 Apr 01 - 04:55 AM I'm a liberal, non-anti-racist, non-revisionist, and I say let the flag stand as a symbol of sadness for the past and of hope for the future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 17 Apr 01 - 04:54 PM Slaves were whipped, yes, but they were also fed and cared for, as you would feed and care for a horse or cow. This has got to be meant as a rather tasteless joke- I hope. You cannot seriously be maintaining that treating human beings like livestock is a PLUS? Are they supposed to have been GRATEFUL? This puts me in mind of a thread about a year ago marvelling that there were few if any Black Mudcatters and discussing possible causes. Ya think postings like the one above might have anything to do with it?? Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: The Walrus Date: 17 Apr 01 - 07:10 PM Greg, I read the quote to mean that slaves were considered expensive livestock - remember that to the slavers/slave holders the slaves WEREN'T considered human (a standard slave shippers' term, I believe, was "black cattle") and that the slave holder would try to look after what was considered an investment, not necessarily from any feeling for the slave, but simply that a sick or ill nurished slave was less productive and/or had a lower resale value. Ducking back behind the parapet Regards Walrus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 17 Apr 01 - 08:34 PM We're on the same page here, Walrus, but the point I was trying to make is that those sorts of sentiments were racist crap even in 1860- and we're in the 21st Century, for chrissakes. Haven't we progressed beyond this garbage in the interim? Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 17 Apr 01 - 08:59 PM Mississippi voted today on this issue. Safe bet that the flag remains the official flag for the state. But, maybe I'll be surprised. Again, I say, the flag is not the real issue. It is today's `tug of war. After the vote, there will be another tug of war over another controvery. We can play tug of war til the cows come home and never resolve a damned thing because we are not dealing with the real issue. That is what I meant by "biting our own asses". Each person needs to understand personal responsibility, and perhaps the first step to that is to honestly look at, and deal with, the motives which one keeps in his own heart. khandu
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Extra Stout Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:32 PM Big Tim, you've got hold of a pretty fair idea there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: ollaimh Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:27 PM the native american swastika goes in the opposite direction from the nazi one . as does the buddhist swaastika and it's indian sub continent relatives. that was intentional as the nazi's wanted the swastika to stand for the opposite of the higher awareness that the origional symbolized. i think that what people do privately is their own business but a public synbol is very different. the confederate battle flag is racist to almost all the people's of the world and many americans don't seem to care. luckily there are better finer forces in america that gave us the bill od rights, the american cuvil liberties union and many other progressive groups. should the germans fly the nazi battle flag to show their tradition? i think we all have had enough of that tradition. and we've mostly had enough of the tradition of slavery in the united states being publicly endorsed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: ollaimh Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:27 PM the native american swastika goes in the opposite direction from the nazi one . as does the buddhist swaastika and it's indian sub continent relatives. that was intentional as the nazi's wanted the swastika to stand for the opposite of the higher awareness that the origional symbolized. i think that what people do privately is their own business but a public synbol is very different. the confederate battle flag is racist to almost all the people's of the world and many americans don't seem to care. luckily there are better finer forces in america that gave us the bill od rights, the american cuvil liberties union and many other progressive groups. should the germans fly the nazi battle flag to show their tradition? i think we all have had enough of that tradition. and we've mostly had enough of the tradition of slavery in the united states being publicly endorsed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: ollaimh Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:28 PM the native american swastika goes in the opposite direction from the nazi one . as does the buddhist swaastika and it's indian sub continent relatives. that was intentional as the nazi's wanted the swastika to stand for the opposite of the higher awareness that the origional symbolized. i think that what people do privately is their own business but a public synbol is very different. the confederate battle flag is racist to almost all the people's of the world and many americans don't seem to care. luckily there are better finer forces in america that gave us the bill of rights, the american civil liberties union and many other progressive groups. should the germans fly the nazi battle flag to show their tradition? i think we all have had enough of that tradition. and we've mostly had enough of the tradition of slavery in the united states being publicly endorsed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:10 PM If a slave on a plantation was injured by a piece of machinery so that he couldn't work in the fields anymore, the family that "owned" him would find "work" for him to do indoors as a sort of social security, even though they really didn't need a full-time person to do the "work" that they had created for him. If a wage slave in a northern factory was injured by a piece of machinery, he was fired and usually starved to death on the streets. Is it wrong to "own" another human being? Absolutely. But it is just as wrong to treat people as disposable cogs in your corporate machine. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:54 PM Thank you Alex. That is what I was trying to point out in my answer to a previous post;"This tells me that you think the white slavery that was going on in the north is acceptable? was perhaps the most fatuous comment I had heard in a great while, it was topped by this
The factories of the North were as vile as the slave pens were. which is arguably more fatuous, and moronic into the bargain." troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:00 AM My congratulations to the folks of Mississippi!! According to our early morning news broadcast it seems that they have elected to keep their flag of 1894! It is good to see that at least part of our heritage is protected from the PC crowd for a while longer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:44 AM Three cheers for tradition and heritage:BLICKY |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:12 AM That song was writen over thirty years ago and conditions have changed, but far be it from me to shatter your cherished illusions. Personally, I don't see how the people of the North can justify how they treat the Irish who are fleeing the recent potato famine. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,Kim C who deleted cookie Date: 18 Apr 01 - 10:21 AM troll and khandu, you guys are the tops. I always love reading what you write. Mississippi voted to keep the flag. To me (but not to everyone, I know) that's the end of the story. The people of the state have spoken, and that's as it should be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Gary T Date: 18 Apr 01 - 02:19 PM I laughed out loud at Troll's reference to "the recent potato famine." Good satire, and the point is well taken that Mississippi has progressed from the conditions spoken of in the linked song. On further reflection, however, I have to admit that the things referred to in the song are indeed part of the state's heritage. Like it or not, that is what many see reflected in the Confederate Battle Flag. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 18 Apr 01 - 02:52 PM That's true, Gary, but let me say AGAIN for the benefit of those who didn't (or wouldn't) hear before, that racism and the South are not mutually exclusive and never have been. So it really isn't fair to single out Mississippi when those sorts of things have happened in other places as well. My husband grew up in Indiana and could tell you about colored water fountains and cross burnings and the like. I'm sure others have stories to tell also. I'm not saying those things didn't happen down here, because they did, but they didn't happen here and only here. Not too awfully long ago our local PBS station ran a documentary about a black man who was almost lynched in Marion, Indiana in the 1930s (I think) because he fell in with a group of ill-minded youngsters who robbed a white couple and shot the woman. The woman was in a coma and couldn't testify, but she did awaken and say that she had not been raped (which they just assumed that she had), and the young boy had not been the one who fired the shot. If I remember correctly (and I may very well not), the other two suspects were lynched. Lynchings. In Indiana. Go figure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: DougR Date: 18 Apr 01 - 02:58 PM I agree with Kim C. The majority of the people that voted wanted to keep the flag as it is. That should be the end of the story. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 18 Apr 01 - 03:58 PM Just not the end of what it says about the state of Mississippi. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:13 PM Nowhere in this thread did ANYONE state or suggest that racism existed in 1860 or exists today, ONLY in the South. It is a bit disingenuous to imply, however, that because Blacks were and are poorly treated elsewhere it somehow changes or excuses the record of the southern states in general, or Mississippi in particular, for the purposes of this discussion. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:20 PM Exactly Alex!! What it says about the state of Mississippi and the citizens of that state is that they care for their heritage and their history. Like it or not, history happened and while we may not be proud of it, it is part of all of our heritage. We cannot undo nor rewrite it, but pretending it never happened is as hurtful as trying to change it. We must learn from our past to better guide our future. I wear my flag pins proudly on my caps, both Union and Confederate. I also take every opportunity to demonstrate that they are not always meant to hurt. For instance, recently there were two black ladies in front of our local grocery store collecting for a function of their churches youth ministries, a predominately black church. As they saw me walking toward the entrance I saw them looking at me as a possible prospect, but when their gaze landed on my flag pins I saw them both look away as if to say, 'He's a waste of time'....You should have seen the look of surprise on both their faces when I stopped and dropped a couple of dollars into their collection jar! I went in and did my shopping and when I came out the one lady thanked me again for my donation, looking at my cap. I explained to her that those flags represented our heritage, not hate for any race or creed. She agreed that it was OUR heritage and not just mine. I have since seen these ladies at several other locations and each time we meet I am greeted well by them. Education is the key!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 18 Apr 01 - 04:27 PM What it says about the citizens of the state of Mississippi is that they don't give a tinker's cuss how blacks feel about the racist implications of their state flag. If I were a black travelling salesman, I would avoid Mississippi like the plague. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 18 Apr 01 - 05:16 PM What it says is that not enough people who really cared about changing it bothered to vote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 18 Apr 01 - 05:21 PM Troll, one further comment in response to your 4/17-11:54 post. There were a substantial number of people in 1830's thru 1860's antebellum America who regarded chattel slavery as abhorent and who "at the time" regarded such sentiments as "racist crap" : 1. The abolitionists (small "a"- a varied group of political, religious & other organizations with both Black and White members, North and South) and 2.The overwhelming majority of the population residing south of Mason and Dixon's line who, though legally only three-fifths of a person each, were BLACK. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:28 PM According to the National Geographic Guide to the Civil War, 1860 census figures for below the M-D line (counting KY & MD but not MO) are as follows: Whites - 5,857,885 Blacks (free and slave) - 3,267,174 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:01 PM You are, of course, right Kim- I screwed up in trying to cram too much into a short sentance. Point I was trying to make was that blacks were a majority in many of the southern states, particularly those of the "Deep South". That blacks were not an absolute majority everywhere in the south doesn't change the point, however. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:31 PM Who really cares how many of any one color or race there are? If people would stop trying to classify the different races and take surveys to see how many of each there are in a given area all would probably just go on with life. It's the folks that keep taking surveys and publishing their findings that tend to keep things stirred up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:35 PM Greg, of course there were those who were against slavery in both the north and south. My maternal great-grandfather,a Presbyterian minister , was among their number. And of course there was racism. You cannot keep people enslaved if you don't feel inately superior to them and that was a prevalent attitude on both sides of the M/D line. Abolitionists were looked down upon in the North. They called them Copperheads. I'm not sure of the origins of the word. They had little sympathy or political power but were quite vocal or as vocal as the communications systems of the time would allow. But please don't think that the Abolitionists felt that the freed slave would be their equal. Some sort of back-to-Africa scheme was favored by some, while others were simply against slavery on principle with no egalatarian motives. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 18 Apr 01 - 10:17 PM Sorry Troll, but the term "Copperheads" was a term of reproach applied to Northerners sympathetic to the South during & immediately after the Civil War; mostly Democrats opposed to the policies of the Lincoln Administration. Their leader was Clement Vallindigham of, if I remember correctly, Ohio. The "Knights of the Golden Circle" was their major "secret society"- similar to that other secret society, the "Knights of the White Camelia"- a.k.a. the Ku Klux Clan. Actually, the abolitionist element (small "a" as opposed to the large "A" Abolitionists like Garrison)was not universally looked down upon on the north; the Liberty Party had some major political successes as did the Free Soil Party; a large number of "come-outer" 'Presby-gational' churches were founded, breaking off from the established church hierarchies over their support of the anti-slavery/abolition question as well. The American Colonization Society's "deport them back to Africa" scheme was primarily supported by Southerners like Henry Clay and had been largely discredited by the time of the Civil War by both enlightened Whites AND by Blacks who saw no reason why they should be forced to abandon the land of their birth, and in many cases their great grand-parents' births, for an Africa they had never known. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 18 Apr 01 - 10:27 PM I love it when I get to read the diverse opinions of my Mudcat friends. It delights me to see us have conflicting views and yet, try to be civil to one another in our expressions. Kim C., thank you for your kindness. Mousethief, I very much respect and admire you. I agree with a lot of what you post on the Forum. However, my friend, if you were a black traveling salesman, I would encourage you to visit Mississippi. IMHO, you would discover that we are not as you have supposed. Again, I must state; THE DAMNED FLAG IS NOT THE ISSUE!!! It is only today's focal point. khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 18 Apr 01 - 10:31 PM You're right. Don't know why I said Copperheahs. I probably need to switch back to caffinated. The back-to Africa schemes didn't die however. Witness Marcus Garvey in the 1930's(?) and , of course, Liberia, founded in 1822 servced as a model. I've read somewhere that Lincoln was supposed to favor such a move but I can't remember where I read it and it may not be true. John Brown and his men were hanged for their raid on Harpers Ferry, so there can't have been all that much sympathy for the abolitionists. Of course, they killed people and the idea of giving slaves guns did'nt sit too well with those who remembered Nat Turners War. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 18 Apr 01 - 11:23 PM Marcus Garvey's movement was different in kind, not in degree, Troll- it was Blacks organizing themselves for a return to Africa, not Whites proposing to ship them back. Liberia was the creation of the American Colonization Society, Jehudi Ashmun, et. al., and had as much to do with whites 'Christianizing' the 'African Heathen' as it did deporting American Blacks- especially free Blacks, who the South was afraid would be the nucleus of slave revolts like Turner's, Vesey's, Prosser's, etc, etc. I seem to recall that John Brown was hanged by the state of Virginia- a slave state, no? Don't think HE expected any sympathy from that quarter. And only 5 of Brown's band (including himself) were hanged; 10 were killed outright in the raid or died from their wounds and the rest escaped. Interesting sidelight: the two Black raiders that were hanged, Shields Green and John Copeland, were decently buried in plain coffins shortly after being taken down from the scaffold, but were almost immediately dug up again by students of Winchester Medical College to be used for dissection. This despite the fact thatCopeland's father had been assured by Va.'s Governor Wise, before his son's execution, that the body would be returned to him. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 19 Apr 01 - 10:15 AM It was my understanding that John Brown was hanged as a traitor to the United States as he commandeered a federal arsenal. Robert E. Lee and JEB Stuart, then officers in the US Army, were among the number that captured him. khandu I have been to Mississippi. I love Mississippi. One of my very best friends lives in Corinth. Mister and I went to Vicksburg a couple of years ago and had a lovely time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,Greg F.- remote computer Date: 19 Apr 01 - 10:39 AM Sorry, Kim, but John Brown was indicted for treason against the State of Virginia and criminal conspiracy to incite a slave insurrection, tried in a Virginia Court at Charles Town and hanged by the State of Virginia on 2 Dec 1859. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:39 AM Thanks Greg. :-) KFC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 27 Apr 01 - 04:01 PM A post-script [ pun intended :-) ]
Washington Post / Editorial
Mississippi votes to stick with the past
The Old South went head to head with the New South in Mississippi last week: Old Dixie won. The issue, posed in the form of a ballot referendum, allowed voters to choose whether to formally adopt the unofficial state flag that prominently sported the Confederate battle emblem or a new design without the racially divisive rebel symbol. By nearly a 2 to 1 margin, Mississippians decided their future is in their tortured past. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 27 Apr 01 - 05:49 PM How do they really know the vote was "racially polarized" ? I'm not trying to be flip here, I'm serious. I don't think my ethnicity is on my voter card, at least not in Tennessee. Did they have someone counting? I'm curious how they know this. And don't anybody tell me it's obvious, because I'm going to pull a Troll here and ask for documentation. I don't mean to be combative, I just want to KNOW. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 27 Apr 01 - 05:58 PM I'm guessing exit polls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 27 Apr 01 - 07:09 PM Isn't it amazing how when folks write stuff like that for publication they often 'forget' to sign their names to it? Face it, the people voted and two thirds of those who did wanted to keep the old flag for whatever reason. What really counts here, to my way of thinking, is that we live in a country where there are still pockets where a vote by the public is possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: JedMarum Date: 27 Apr 01 - 10:19 PM Why does the rest of the wolrd insist on making the decision for MS. It's their state. It's their choice. And to say it is a purely racial majority that made the decision is disingenuous. Nearly half the black voters supported keeping the flag. This may be a lightning rod type issue for some with keen interest in national politics, but MS voters had their say. Let it rest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Irish sergeant Date: 28 Apr 01 - 09:28 PM Thank you Jed! That is what I was trying to say above. As to Guest: The Yank who called my comment about factory conditions in the north being as vile as the slave pens being fatuous and moronic. You are indeed entitled to your opinion. May I state first off, I no where condoned slavery. Moreever, I was speaking as to living conditions. I suggest for starters you read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle". Then search the public records concerning the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire. Just in case those haven't sparked some realization of what I was saying. Read an indepth history of the Johnstown flood. (You know, the one that happened because company bigwigs wanted a private fishing pond) You'll find that these big companies such as U.S.Steel, Remington Arms etc. gouged their workers so badly that many died of disease that could have been prevented had the company not been taking every last dime. There is a reason tradeunions are big business in the United States. Lastly, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you intentionally misspelled "America" and not make the assumption that you are stupid. In the future, I would hope that you would do the same but after reading your post I doubt you will. Your self righteous, oh so moral tone in no way hides the bigotry you feel toward the South. By the by, I am also a Yankee though I do hope our friends south of Mason- Dixon don't mistakenly group us together. Kindest reguards and to the rest of you, I apologise for my rant. Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 04:57 AM Neil, you may rant on anytime you want! Folks like that Guest are as entitled to their opinions as the rest of us, but it seems like each time they voice their opinions they tend to show off more and more of their ignorance. I almost pity them! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST, the Yank Date: 29 Apr 01 - 10:19 AM Right, then, Sarge: Your original post maintained that slavery wasn't so bad for the happy little Darkies 'cause ol' Massa extended to them the same care and concern he would do for livestock and that their lives were better than that of the poor northern Factory Worker. So, "fatuous: adj : complacently or inanely foolish" This seems an accurate description of your thesis.
As to "moronic: adj:so senseless as to be laughable; absurd, foolish, nonsensical, preposterous, silly..."
Suggest you re-read those works yourself. You obviously missed quite a lot. A basic history text would also be helpful for arranging your facts in chronological order.
As to your expressed desire that no-one mistakenly group you and I together: Sarge, I could not have said it better myself!!
Yo, Banj, my man! Best pity yourself into the bargain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 01:09 PM Yank, give it up, you're on the short end of this thing and just don't know when to quit....Point is the 1894 flag remains because the good people of Mississippi wanted it that way. Just accept it and live with it...End of story! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: John P Date: 29 Apr 01 - 01:36 PM Banjer, et al, I agree that the people of Mississippi should choose their own flag. I have no interest in telling them what they should do, or in having anyone else tell them what they should do. Most of the people who cared to vote decided to keep it, and that's the way it is. That doesn't change the fact that most of the rest of the world views the Confederate flag as a symbol of slavery. We are just amazed that the people of Mississippi are willing to be viewed as being willing to maintain such a symbol. Whatever the flag may mean to you, it sends a clearly unpleasant message to most everyone else. I don't think that you or anyone else is a bigot purely because of a single vote; I wouldn't draw such a conclusion without more evidence. But that doesn't change the fact that that's my initial gut-level reaction. I understand that there are lots of historical, traditional, heritage-based reasons for a perfectly normal person to keep the flag -- but that is a level of understanding that only comes after discussion and thinking about it, and even then it is not one that completely convinces me. Would you be willing to talk more fully about why you like the flag of a government that was formed mostly to protect the states' "right" to keep slaves? As in, what part of that tradition do you feel still speaks to you today? Why you want to consider yourself a part of that heritage? Why this is a part of history that needs to be celebrated? I'm really curious how you feel about these things. Thank you for any time you can spend explaining. John Peekstok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Ebbie Date: 29 Apr 01 - 02:22 PM The reason that black slavery was worse than the working conditions of factory workers in the north is a simple one: Slavery was based on skin color, with no way to escape the opprobrium; factory workers' conditions were based on poverty with its concomitant powerlessness. The factory workers never had to feel the helplessness of smiling governmental collusion in persecution. There is a HUGE difference. As for so many of you above saying that Mississipi voters have spoken and that should settle it, are you also arguing that the north should have let the south secede when it wanted to? I too lived in the south- back in the days of the 'colored ' fountains and separate accommodations, in the days when no black stranger would look you in the eye, in the days when black people stepped off the sidewalk to let the white person by... Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 04:17 PM John, it was my decision to completely step aside from this thread before it developed into a 'cyber riot'. In view of your question I will give an explanation of my stand. I do not care if anyone agrees with me or not, but this is (in a nutshell) how I feel: Our country was founded by a group of individuals that were seeking to escape governmental controls and gain religious freedom. It was this tightening or enforcing of governmental controls that caused the southern states to want to withdraw from the union. At the time our constitution was worded in such a way that seccession was NOT illegal. I also do not believe that slavery was the original issue but was made an issue in 1863 when Lincoln needed 300,000 more troops and the northern folk more or less said 'hell no we won't go'. I DO NOT condone slavery in any form. The north had as much slave activity going as did the south. As has been pointed out the factories were sweat shops and thought nothing of using child labor, indentured servitude was also rampant. Jefferson Davis, it is often said, was on the verge of limiting if not eliminating slavery in the south. Had Lee not surrendered when he did, no telling where it would have gone. (Downhill probably) As it was the south had NO chance of survival. The independence of each of the states was so fierce as to defeat the overall purpose. North Carolina had 150 cannon purchased for the defense of the borders of the state. They would not allow these guns to be taken out of state. What a difference they could have made! Georgia had warehouses full of boots and uniforms, but would not share them with other states to outfit their needy troops. All southern states had different gauge railroads so that travel from state to state meant changing lines at each state line. Each state had its own issues of currency, in some cases even individual banks and cities had their own forms of money. No, the DREAM could never be realized, but it was none the less a dream that men were willing to lay down their lives for. Two of my known ancestors, suspected but not yet verified, among them. That is MY HERITAGE, it cannot be changed by any rewriting or ommisison of history. It is not just my heritage but all our heritage, and we all would do well to remmeber it so that our future does not fall into the same mistakes. The flag in question represents that heritage and I for one am proud to see it fly and am glad to see that obviously the state of Mississippi thinks enough of their population to allow them to vote on it rather than just do away with it by governmental decree as has been done in other states. It is by allowing that vote that the government of Mississippi best demonstrates the concept of government of, for and by the people (a concept our current federal, and many state governments seem to have forgotten). Long may that concept live! Thanks John for your interest and allowing me to explain my stand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,the Yankster Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:51 PM
Hyperbole does not strengthen your case, Banj ol' boy, it has the opposite effect- you have posted a farrago of half-truths, inventions, and nonsense:
Our country was founded by a group of individuals that were seeking to escape governmental controls and gain religious freedom... The United States was founded in 1776- not 1620. One or two things changed during the intervening 150 years with which you may wish to re-familiarize yourself. That basic history text will help. Escape governmental controls? Hardly. Check the statutes of Massachussetts Bay Colony - every aspect of life was regulated.
At the time our constitution was worded in such a way that seccession was NOT illegal...The wording hasn't changed, old son.
Jefferson Davis, it is often said, was on the verge of limiting if not eliminating slavery in the south. It certainly is not said by anyone who has ever read Mr. Davis' works, or who is remotely familiar with his writings and public statements- all on record for you to check...
The north had as much slave activity going as did the south... In 1860? Simply, bullshit.
No, the DREAM could never be realized Which dream, specifically? The dream of owning slaves? Of seceding from the Union? Elaborate.
The independence of each of the states was so fierce ........ through...even individual banks and cities had their own forms of money.This jumbled litany of Confederate screw-ups is in aid of...what, exactly?
Two of my known ancestors, suspected but not yet verified... You suspect that you had ancestors? -No verified ancestors---are you illegitimate? You suspect your ancestors might have been Rebel soldiers? That you are a Confederate Wannabe? Get back to us when you prove or disprove your suspicions.
I also do not believe that slavery was the original issue...Jesus Wept, man, you can "believe" in alien abduction if you wish to- but that doesn't make it so.
...the government of Mississippi best demonstrates the concept of government of, for and by the people ...
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:58 PM Yankster I won't dignify your assinine personal assault with a reply. I suggest you check YOUR facts on some of your allegations and DON'T get back to me.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,The Yank- Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:08 PM Only responding to your statements and refuting some of your more questionable assertions, Banj ol' boy- no personal attack involved. Cheers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:41 PM Two of my known ancestors, suspected but not yet verified... You suspect that you had ancestors? -No verified ancestors---are you illegitimate? You suspect your ancestors might have been Rebel soldiers? That you are a Confederate Wannabe? Get back to us when you prove or disprove your suspicions. Not personal??? Not that I owe YOU any explenation but there are two of my ancestors that have been found on Muster Tolls of Confederate Units. One on the Rockbridge Light Artillery and the other in a unit thought to be the 33rd Virginia Infantry...Not having been confirmed as being directly in our family's history due to some missing family and church records further research is required. Unlike some, I will not claim as fact something which is as yet unproven. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:46 PM That should be explanation and Muster Rolls....whoops! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 29 Apr 01 - 08:27 PM Thanks, that at least makes sense now. It did not in the original presentation the way you wrote it. Now, about those other points...... Cheers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 08:44 PM You seem to be very adept at taking things out of context and not understanding concepts, if you will read the entire statement you would see that I am listing just a few of the reasons the south could not have survived. The independence of each of the states was so fierce ........ through...even individual banks and cities had their own forms of money.This jumbled litany of Confederate screw-ups is in aid of...what, exactly? (your view) The thought in its entirety: Each state had its own issues of currency, in some cases even individual banks and cities had their own forms of money. No, the DREAM could never be realized, but it was none the less a dream that men were willing to lay down their lives for. I don't know why I even waste my time trying to explain anything to you, you will only interpret as you will anyhow. It's all about respect for our ancestors and their ideals, it'a Southern thing, you probably wouldn't understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Apr 01 - 09:10 PM It would have been nice to come up with something workable here and in the other states as well. If you are going to use a flag to relate history and heritage, than I would imagine you open a can of worms in virtually every state. In poor old Mississippi, what would they do......put a likeness of Medgar Evers opposite on of Ross Barnett? That's not a joke folks, but to every piece of "history" there are multiple tales to be told, some full of pride and others quite shameful. I would like to have see Mississippi replace the flag in that "section" with a pair of crossed flags--Union and Confederate which are often seen together on book covers, etc.--to represent that piece of the state's history. I dunno'.........We don't have a state flag.....just a "pennant." And it has nothing but stripes, stars, and circles.....not a single picture of the Cuyahoga River on fire. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,richlmo Date: 29 Apr 01 - 09:27 PM Maybe the Yank passed out. What a Jerk!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Irish sergeant Date: 30 Apr 01 - 09:54 AM Dear The Yank: While we're talking about reading I suggest that you go back and read my posts. I said nothing of the sort. If you are going to cast aspersions kindly read what was written. I never coompared the care of slaves to livestock my sole comment was that the factories were azs vile as the slave pens. and if you read my last post you would know that. But then I suspect you like most bigots read only what you want to see and not the entire manuscript. Just to be sure I checked I have three other posts on this topic again, I suggest you go back and read them. By the By, none of my comments were meant to foster any sort of moral sympathy for slavery Ebbie. I do agree it was more reprehensible becuase of the race issue involved and because of the personal freedom issues. I was speaking strictly to living conditions. Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 30 Apr 01 - 10:36 AM what exactly is an exit poll and how accurate is it? They would have to poll every single voter, yes? But do they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 30 Apr 01 - 09:22 PM Spaw, what an excellent idea! Your insights impress me to no end! The crossed flags would be very nice. But, I also think a picture of Mississippi John in the offending corner would be nice. Some how , it does not surprise me that your state does not have a "real" flag, but a little bitty pennant, after all, you...but that's a different thread! ;D khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 30 Apr 01 - 09:41 PM 'Spaw, its a pity about not having the burning Cuyahoga depicted on SOME state symbol- possibly a new State Seal? What about Randy Newman's ode as the new State Song for the Age of Bush II: Oh the Lord can make you tumble And the Lord can make you turn And the Lord can make you overflow But the Lord can't make you burn! Burn on, big river, burn on..... Always thought that was a great picture & knew someone living in Cuyahoga Falls at the time of the, um..., unpleasant episode? Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: RichM Date: 30 Apr 01 - 10:34 PM Source: DigiTrad STRANGE FRUIT (Billie Holiday and Lewis Allen) Southern trees bear a strange fruit, Blood on the leaves and blood at the root Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees. Oh----- Oh:----- Pastoral scene of the gallant South The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth Scent of magnolia sweet and fresh And the sudden smell of burning flesh. Here is a fruit for the crows to pluck For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop Oh, ----- here is a strange and bitter --- crop. Oh, --- here is a strange and bitter crop. Note: I've seen the attribution to Ms. Holiday alone, to Mr. Allen alone and to both together. RG @blues @political @death filename[ STRANFRT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Blackcatter Date: 01 May 01 - 12:15 AM As far as I'm concerned, I would suggest that the black inhabitants of Miss. go into every store and buy ever confederate symbol they can and display them in their cars, in their home windows and on ther desks at work. They should buy every single thing they can get their hands on and they should write letter after letter to every newspaper about how much they love the symbol. They should give out flag stickers on street corners to every white person that walks by and should offer to place them on their cars. The reason? From what I've seen, racist rednecks hate just about ANYTHING that black people like. And by the way: the swastika has been used either clock-wise and counter-clockwise in nearly every culture that used it. It was only the Nazis who chose to use it in one direction. pax yall |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 01 May 01 - 12:25 AM Exit poll is where they ask people on their way out from the voting center who they voted for. They try to match the proportion of age/race/gender/whatever for the voters-as-a-whole with the sample they take, like any other sampling technique. And it is subject to the same limitations. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 01 May 01 - 10:10 AM I see. So in other words, they don't really know to a man how people voted. That's what I thought. Can we just let the people of Mississippi fight their own fight, please? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 01 May 01 - 11:20 AM We can let them fight it, but we may also have opinions on it, even though it's not our fight. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,Malcom Date: 01 May 01 - 11:58 AM It most certainly IS our fight- it's everyone's business to fight racism, injustice & bad taste. In that order. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 01 May 01 - 01:37 PM Seeing that the Confederacy was never recognized as an official government by anybody, and that it was only in existence 4 measly years, no, I don't think the battle flag belongs on a state flag, or a statehouse, or any official state or government building. But I don't live in Mississippi, ergo I did not have a chance to vote on it. If they want it, let them have it, and fercryinoutloud let's move on. Simply removing an emblem is not going to get rid of racism, injustice, or bad taste, in that order. It's nothing more than a band-aid. We can either keep putting band-aids on things, or we can try to heal the damn wound. But of course the band-aid approach is easier and people can feel like they're Really Doing Something. What some people apparently don't understand is this: sometimes the harder you push someone, the harder they resist. Perhaps the people of Mississippi are just damn tired of being pushed by people who don't live there and this is their way of resisting. I don't know what the answer is. In a country where we espouse the free exchange of ideas and opinions, SOMEONE is going to get their feelings hurt, no matter how diplomatic you try to be. That's just the way it is. Maybe you don't like the way Mississippi voted. But the fact is, they voted, they made a decision. Maybe later on they will vote again and come to a different decision. I don't know. Perhaps the best place to start is with the person in the mirror. That's all I have to say on the subject, and I ain't sayin any more. See you in the music threads. Cheers----- KFC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 01 May 01 - 01:58 PM Less a band-aid; removing that flag is more like getting dirt out of the wound. Only when a wound is completely cleaned out can it heal without infection. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,Allan Date: 01 May 01 - 02:59 PM If only the time, effort, rhetoric and expense wasted on keeping this obnoxious symbol flapping in peoples' faces had been applied to something that might actually benefit the citizens of Mississippi- like upgrading their state educational system from number 50 in the nation, for example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 01 May 01 - 07:40 PM 'obnoxious symbol'? It's all in the eye of the beholder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 01 May 01 - 08:47 PM Thank you, Kim C. khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 May 01 - 07:59 PM I imagine if I was a heritage conscious Mississippian I'd have wanted to go back to the flag that existed at the time the state was established, not stick with something dreamed up by racist politicians in 1894. They didn't have that option on the ballot paper did they?
As for the rest of the world - in England the Confederate flag tends to be identified as meaning Country Music, and gets seen along with the Stars and Stripes. But it probably more popular as a decoration because it is so much prettier, all sparkly, but not as garish as the Union Jack. Not as pretty as the South African one though.
For evidence that the swastika in India could go the same way as the Nazi one, see old editions of Kipling, say from the 1920s, which has it on the cover along with an elephant. It's a real shame the way we mess up attractive symbols so they can't be used without giving people the wrong impression. |