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BS: Mississippi Flag Vote
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 May 01 - 07:59 PM I imagine if I was a heritage conscious Mississippian I'd have wanted to go back to the flag that existed at the time the state was established, not stick with something dreamed up by racist politicians in 1894. They didn't have that option on the ballot paper did they?
As for the rest of the world - in England the Confederate flag tends to be identified as meaning Country Music, and gets seen along with the Stars and Stripes. But it probably more popular as a decoration because it is so much prettier, all sparkly, but not as garish as the Union Jack. Not as pretty as the South African one though.
For evidence that the swastika in India could go the same way as the Nazi one, see old editions of Kipling, say from the 1920s, which has it on the cover along with an elephant. It's a real shame the way we mess up attractive symbols so they can't be used without giving people the wrong impression. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 01 May 01 - 08:47 PM Thank you, Kim C. khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 01 May 01 - 07:40 PM 'obnoxious symbol'? It's all in the eye of the beholder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,Allan Date: 01 May 01 - 02:59 PM If only the time, effort, rhetoric and expense wasted on keeping this obnoxious symbol flapping in peoples' faces had been applied to something that might actually benefit the citizens of Mississippi- like upgrading their state educational system from number 50 in the nation, for example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 01 May 01 - 01:58 PM Less a band-aid; removing that flag is more like getting dirt out of the wound. Only when a wound is completely cleaned out can it heal without infection. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 01 May 01 - 01:37 PM Seeing that the Confederacy was never recognized as an official government by anybody, and that it was only in existence 4 measly years, no, I don't think the battle flag belongs on a state flag, or a statehouse, or any official state or government building. But I don't live in Mississippi, ergo I did not have a chance to vote on it. If they want it, let them have it, and fercryinoutloud let's move on. Simply removing an emblem is not going to get rid of racism, injustice, or bad taste, in that order. It's nothing more than a band-aid. We can either keep putting band-aids on things, or we can try to heal the damn wound. But of course the band-aid approach is easier and people can feel like they're Really Doing Something. What some people apparently don't understand is this: sometimes the harder you push someone, the harder they resist. Perhaps the people of Mississippi are just damn tired of being pushed by people who don't live there and this is their way of resisting. I don't know what the answer is. In a country where we espouse the free exchange of ideas and opinions, SOMEONE is going to get their feelings hurt, no matter how diplomatic you try to be. That's just the way it is. Maybe you don't like the way Mississippi voted. But the fact is, they voted, they made a decision. Maybe later on they will vote again and come to a different decision. I don't know. Perhaps the best place to start is with the person in the mirror. That's all I have to say on the subject, and I ain't sayin any more. See you in the music threads. Cheers----- KFC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,Malcom Date: 01 May 01 - 11:58 AM It most certainly IS our fight- it's everyone's business to fight racism, injustice & bad taste. In that order. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 01 May 01 - 11:20 AM We can let them fight it, but we may also have opinions on it, even though it's not our fight. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 01 May 01 - 10:10 AM I see. So in other words, they don't really know to a man how people voted. That's what I thought. Can we just let the people of Mississippi fight their own fight, please? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 01 May 01 - 12:25 AM Exit poll is where they ask people on their way out from the voting center who they voted for. They try to match the proportion of age/race/gender/whatever for the voters-as-a-whole with the sample they take, like any other sampling technique. And it is subject to the same limitations. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Blackcatter Date: 01 May 01 - 12:15 AM As far as I'm concerned, I would suggest that the black inhabitants of Miss. go into every store and buy ever confederate symbol they can and display them in their cars, in their home windows and on ther desks at work. They should buy every single thing they can get their hands on and they should write letter after letter to every newspaper about how much they love the symbol. They should give out flag stickers on street corners to every white person that walks by and should offer to place them on their cars. The reason? From what I've seen, racist rednecks hate just about ANYTHING that black people like. And by the way: the swastika has been used either clock-wise and counter-clockwise in nearly every culture that used it. It was only the Nazis who chose to use it in one direction. pax yall |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: RichM Date: 30 Apr 01 - 10:34 PM Source: DigiTrad STRANGE FRUIT (Billie Holiday and Lewis Allen) Southern trees bear a strange fruit, Blood on the leaves and blood at the root Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees. Oh----- Oh:----- Pastoral scene of the gallant South The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth Scent of magnolia sweet and fresh And the sudden smell of burning flesh. Here is a fruit for the crows to pluck For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop Oh, ----- here is a strange and bitter --- crop. Oh, --- here is a strange and bitter crop. Note: I've seen the attribution to Ms. Holiday alone, to Mr. Allen alone and to both together. RG @blues @political @death filename[ STRANFRT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 30 Apr 01 - 09:41 PM 'Spaw, its a pity about not having the burning Cuyahoga depicted on SOME state symbol- possibly a new State Seal? What about Randy Newman's ode as the new State Song for the Age of Bush II: Oh the Lord can make you tumble And the Lord can make you turn And the Lord can make you overflow But the Lord can't make you burn! Burn on, big river, burn on..... Always thought that was a great picture & knew someone living in Cuyahoga Falls at the time of the, um..., unpleasant episode? Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 30 Apr 01 - 09:22 PM Spaw, what an excellent idea! Your insights impress me to no end! The crossed flags would be very nice. But, I also think a picture of Mississippi John in the offending corner would be nice. Some how , it does not surprise me that your state does not have a "real" flag, but a little bitty pennant, after all, you...but that's a different thread! ;D khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 30 Apr 01 - 10:36 AM what exactly is an exit poll and how accurate is it? They would have to poll every single voter, yes? But do they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Irish sergeant Date: 30 Apr 01 - 09:54 AM Dear The Yank: While we're talking about reading I suggest that you go back and read my posts. I said nothing of the sort. If you are going to cast aspersions kindly read what was written. I never coompared the care of slaves to livestock my sole comment was that the factories were azs vile as the slave pens. and if you read my last post you would know that. But then I suspect you like most bigots read only what you want to see and not the entire manuscript. Just to be sure I checked I have three other posts on this topic again, I suggest you go back and read them. By the By, none of my comments were meant to foster any sort of moral sympathy for slavery Ebbie. I do agree it was more reprehensible becuase of the race issue involved and because of the personal freedom issues. I was speaking strictly to living conditions. Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,richlmo Date: 29 Apr 01 - 09:27 PM Maybe the Yank passed out. What a Jerk!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Apr 01 - 09:10 PM It would have been nice to come up with something workable here and in the other states as well. If you are going to use a flag to relate history and heritage, than I would imagine you open a can of worms in virtually every state. In poor old Mississippi, what would they do......put a likeness of Medgar Evers opposite on of Ross Barnett? That's not a joke folks, but to every piece of "history" there are multiple tales to be told, some full of pride and others quite shameful. I would like to have see Mississippi replace the flag in that "section" with a pair of crossed flags--Union and Confederate which are often seen together on book covers, etc.--to represent that piece of the state's history. I dunno'.........We don't have a state flag.....just a "pennant." And it has nothing but stripes, stars, and circles.....not a single picture of the Cuyahoga River on fire. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 08:44 PM You seem to be very adept at taking things out of context and not understanding concepts, if you will read the entire statement you would see that I am listing just a few of the reasons the south could not have survived. The independence of each of the states was so fierce ........ through...even individual banks and cities had their own forms of money.This jumbled litany of Confederate screw-ups is in aid of...what, exactly? (your view) The thought in its entirety: Each state had its own issues of currency, in some cases even individual banks and cities had their own forms of money. No, the DREAM could never be realized, but it was none the less a dream that men were willing to lay down their lives for. I don't know why I even waste my time trying to explain anything to you, you will only interpret as you will anyhow. It's all about respect for our ancestors and their ideals, it'a Southern thing, you probably wouldn't understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 29 Apr 01 - 08:27 PM Thanks, that at least makes sense now. It did not in the original presentation the way you wrote it. Now, about those other points...... Cheers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:46 PM That should be explanation and Muster Rolls....whoops! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:41 PM Two of my known ancestors, suspected but not yet verified... You suspect that you had ancestors? -No verified ancestors---are you illegitimate? You suspect your ancestors might have been Rebel soldiers? That you are a Confederate Wannabe? Get back to us when you prove or disprove your suspicions. Not personal??? Not that I owe YOU any explenation but there are two of my ancestors that have been found on Muster Tolls of Confederate Units. One on the Rockbridge Light Artillery and the other in a unit thought to be the 33rd Virginia Infantry...Not having been confirmed as being directly in our family's history due to some missing family and church records further research is required. Unlike some, I will not claim as fact something which is as yet unproven. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,The Yank- Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:08 PM Only responding to your statements and refuting some of your more questionable assertions, Banj ol' boy- no personal attack involved. Cheers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:58 PM Yankster I won't dignify your assinine personal assault with a reply. I suggest you check YOUR facts on some of your allegations and DON'T get back to me.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,the Yankster Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:51 PM
Hyperbole does not strengthen your case, Banj ol' boy, it has the opposite effect- you have posted a farrago of half-truths, inventions, and nonsense:
Our country was founded by a group of individuals that were seeking to escape governmental controls and gain religious freedom... The United States was founded in 1776- not 1620. One or two things changed during the intervening 150 years with which you may wish to re-familiarize yourself. That basic history text will help. Escape governmental controls? Hardly. Check the statutes of Massachussetts Bay Colony - every aspect of life was regulated.
At the time our constitution was worded in such a way that seccession was NOT illegal...The wording hasn't changed, old son.
Jefferson Davis, it is often said, was on the verge of limiting if not eliminating slavery in the south. It certainly is not said by anyone who has ever read Mr. Davis' works, or who is remotely familiar with his writings and public statements- all on record for you to check...
The north had as much slave activity going as did the south... In 1860? Simply, bullshit.
No, the DREAM could never be realized Which dream, specifically? The dream of owning slaves? Of seceding from the Union? Elaborate.
The independence of each of the states was so fierce ........ through...even individual banks and cities had their own forms of money.This jumbled litany of Confederate screw-ups is in aid of...what, exactly?
Two of my known ancestors, suspected but not yet verified... You suspect that you had ancestors? -No verified ancestors---are you illegitimate? You suspect your ancestors might have been Rebel soldiers? That you are a Confederate Wannabe? Get back to us when you prove or disprove your suspicions.
I also do not believe that slavery was the original issue...Jesus Wept, man, you can "believe" in alien abduction if you wish to- but that doesn't make it so.
...the government of Mississippi best demonstrates the concept of government of, for and by the people ...
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 04:17 PM John, it was my decision to completely step aside from this thread before it developed into a 'cyber riot'. In view of your question I will give an explanation of my stand. I do not care if anyone agrees with me or not, but this is (in a nutshell) how I feel: Our country was founded by a group of individuals that were seeking to escape governmental controls and gain religious freedom. It was this tightening or enforcing of governmental controls that caused the southern states to want to withdraw from the union. At the time our constitution was worded in such a way that seccession was NOT illegal. I also do not believe that slavery was the original issue but was made an issue in 1863 when Lincoln needed 300,000 more troops and the northern folk more or less said 'hell no we won't go'. I DO NOT condone slavery in any form. The north had as much slave activity going as did the south. As has been pointed out the factories were sweat shops and thought nothing of using child labor, indentured servitude was also rampant. Jefferson Davis, it is often said, was on the verge of limiting if not eliminating slavery in the south. Had Lee not surrendered when he did, no telling where it would have gone. (Downhill probably) As it was the south had NO chance of survival. The independence of each of the states was so fierce as to defeat the overall purpose. North Carolina had 150 cannon purchased for the defense of the borders of the state. They would not allow these guns to be taken out of state. What a difference they could have made! Georgia had warehouses full of boots and uniforms, but would not share them with other states to outfit their needy troops. All southern states had different gauge railroads so that travel from state to state meant changing lines at each state line. Each state had its own issues of currency, in some cases even individual banks and cities had their own forms of money. No, the DREAM could never be realized, but it was none the less a dream that men were willing to lay down their lives for. Two of my known ancestors, suspected but not yet verified, among them. That is MY HERITAGE, it cannot be changed by any rewriting or ommisison of history. It is not just my heritage but all our heritage, and we all would do well to remmeber it so that our future does not fall into the same mistakes. The flag in question represents that heritage and I for one am proud to see it fly and am glad to see that obviously the state of Mississippi thinks enough of their population to allow them to vote on it rather than just do away with it by governmental decree as has been done in other states. It is by allowing that vote that the government of Mississippi best demonstrates the concept of government of, for and by the people (a concept our current federal, and many state governments seem to have forgotten). Long may that concept live! Thanks John for your interest and allowing me to explain my stand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Ebbie Date: 29 Apr 01 - 02:22 PM The reason that black slavery was worse than the working conditions of factory workers in the north is a simple one: Slavery was based on skin color, with no way to escape the opprobrium; factory workers' conditions were based on poverty with its concomitant powerlessness. The factory workers never had to feel the helplessness of smiling governmental collusion in persecution. There is a HUGE difference. As for so many of you above saying that Mississipi voters have spoken and that should settle it, are you also arguing that the north should have let the south secede when it wanted to? I too lived in the south- back in the days of the 'colored ' fountains and separate accommodations, in the days when no black stranger would look you in the eye, in the days when black people stepped off the sidewalk to let the white person by... Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: John P Date: 29 Apr 01 - 01:36 PM Banjer, et al, I agree that the people of Mississippi should choose their own flag. I have no interest in telling them what they should do, or in having anyone else tell them what they should do. Most of the people who cared to vote decided to keep it, and that's the way it is. That doesn't change the fact that most of the rest of the world views the Confederate flag as a symbol of slavery. We are just amazed that the people of Mississippi are willing to be viewed as being willing to maintain such a symbol. Whatever the flag may mean to you, it sends a clearly unpleasant message to most everyone else. I don't think that you or anyone else is a bigot purely because of a single vote; I wouldn't draw such a conclusion without more evidence. But that doesn't change the fact that that's my initial gut-level reaction. I understand that there are lots of historical, traditional, heritage-based reasons for a perfectly normal person to keep the flag -- but that is a level of understanding that only comes after discussion and thinking about it, and even then it is not one that completely convinces me. Would you be willing to talk more fully about why you like the flag of a government that was formed mostly to protect the states' "right" to keep slaves? As in, what part of that tradition do you feel still speaks to you today? Why you want to consider yourself a part of that heritage? Why this is a part of history that needs to be celebrated? I'm really curious how you feel about these things. Thank you for any time you can spend explaining. John Peekstok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 01:09 PM Yank, give it up, you're on the short end of this thing and just don't know when to quit....Point is the 1894 flag remains because the good people of Mississippi wanted it that way. Just accept it and live with it...End of story! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST, the Yank Date: 29 Apr 01 - 10:19 AM Right, then, Sarge: Your original post maintained that slavery wasn't so bad for the happy little Darkies 'cause ol' Massa extended to them the same care and concern he would do for livestock and that their lives were better than that of the poor northern Factory Worker. So, "fatuous: adj : complacently or inanely foolish" This seems an accurate description of your thesis.
As to "moronic: adj:so senseless as to be laughable; absurd, foolish, nonsensical, preposterous, silly..."
Suggest you re-read those works yourself. You obviously missed quite a lot. A basic history text would also be helpful for arranging your facts in chronological order.
As to your expressed desire that no-one mistakenly group you and I together: Sarge, I could not have said it better myself!!
Yo, Banj, my man! Best pity yourself into the bargain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 29 Apr 01 - 04:57 AM Neil, you may rant on anytime you want! Folks like that Guest are as entitled to their opinions as the rest of us, but it seems like each time they voice their opinions they tend to show off more and more of their ignorance. I almost pity them! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Irish sergeant Date: 28 Apr 01 - 09:28 PM Thank you Jed! That is what I was trying to say above. As to Guest: The Yank who called my comment about factory conditions in the north being as vile as the slave pens being fatuous and moronic. You are indeed entitled to your opinion. May I state first off, I no where condoned slavery. Moreever, I was speaking as to living conditions. I suggest for starters you read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle". Then search the public records concerning the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire. Just in case those haven't sparked some realization of what I was saying. Read an indepth history of the Johnstown flood. (You know, the one that happened because company bigwigs wanted a private fishing pond) You'll find that these big companies such as U.S.Steel, Remington Arms etc. gouged their workers so badly that many died of disease that could have been prevented had the company not been taking every last dime. There is a reason tradeunions are big business in the United States. Lastly, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you intentionally misspelled "America" and not make the assumption that you are stupid. In the future, I would hope that you would do the same but after reading your post I doubt you will. Your self righteous, oh so moral tone in no way hides the bigotry you feel toward the South. By the by, I am also a Yankee though I do hope our friends south of Mason- Dixon don't mistakenly group us together. Kindest reguards and to the rest of you, I apologise for my rant. Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: JedMarum Date: 27 Apr 01 - 10:19 PM Why does the rest of the wolrd insist on making the decision for MS. It's their state. It's their choice. And to say it is a purely racial majority that made the decision is disingenuous. Nearly half the black voters supported keeping the flag. This may be a lightning rod type issue for some with keen interest in national politics, but MS voters had their say. Let it rest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 27 Apr 01 - 07:09 PM Isn't it amazing how when folks write stuff like that for publication they often 'forget' to sign their names to it? Face it, the people voted and two thirds of those who did wanted to keep the old flag for whatever reason. What really counts here, to my way of thinking, is that we live in a country where there are still pockets where a vote by the public is possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: mousethief Date: 27 Apr 01 - 05:58 PM I'm guessing exit polls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 27 Apr 01 - 05:49 PM How do they really know the vote was "racially polarized" ? I'm not trying to be flip here, I'm serious. I don't think my ethnicity is on my voter card, at least not in Tennessee. Did they have someone counting? I'm curious how they know this. And don't anybody tell me it's obvious, because I'm going to pull a Troll here and ask for documentation. I don't mean to be combative, I just want to KNOW. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 27 Apr 01 - 04:01 PM A post-script [ pun intended :-) ]
Washington Post / Editorial
Mississippi votes to stick with the past
The Old South went head to head with the New South in Mississippi last week: Old Dixie won. The issue, posed in the form of a ballot referendum, allowed voters to choose whether to formally adopt the unofficial state flag that prominently sported the Confederate battle emblem or a new design without the racially divisive rebel symbol. By nearly a 2 to 1 margin, Mississippians decided their future is in their tortured past. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 19 Apr 01 - 11:39 AM Thanks Greg. :-) KFC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,Greg F.- remote computer Date: 19 Apr 01 - 10:39 AM Sorry, Kim, but John Brown was indicted for treason against the State of Virginia and criminal conspiracy to incite a slave insurrection, tried in a Virginia Court at Charles Town and hanged by the State of Virginia on 2 Dec 1859. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 19 Apr 01 - 10:15 AM It was my understanding that John Brown was hanged as a traitor to the United States as he commandeered a federal arsenal. Robert E. Lee and JEB Stuart, then officers in the US Army, were among the number that captured him. khandu I have been to Mississippi. I love Mississippi. One of my very best friends lives in Corinth. Mister and I went to Vicksburg a couple of years ago and had a lovely time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 18 Apr 01 - 11:23 PM Marcus Garvey's movement was different in kind, not in degree, Troll- it was Blacks organizing themselves for a return to Africa, not Whites proposing to ship them back. Liberia was the creation of the American Colonization Society, Jehudi Ashmun, et. al., and had as much to do with whites 'Christianizing' the 'African Heathen' as it did deporting American Blacks- especially free Blacks, who the South was afraid would be the nucleus of slave revolts like Turner's, Vesey's, Prosser's, etc, etc. I seem to recall that John Brown was hanged by the state of Virginia- a slave state, no? Don't think HE expected any sympathy from that quarter. And only 5 of Brown's band (including himself) were hanged; 10 were killed outright in the raid or died from their wounds and the rest escaped. Interesting sidelight: the two Black raiders that were hanged, Shields Green and John Copeland, were decently buried in plain coffins shortly after being taken down from the scaffold, but were almost immediately dug up again by students of Winchester Medical College to be used for dissection. This despite the fact thatCopeland's father had been assured by Va.'s Governor Wise, before his son's execution, that the body would be returned to him. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 18 Apr 01 - 10:31 PM You're right. Don't know why I said Copperheahs. I probably need to switch back to caffinated. The back-to Africa schemes didn't die however. Witness Marcus Garvey in the 1930's(?) and , of course, Liberia, founded in 1822 servced as a model. I've read somewhere that Lincoln was supposed to favor such a move but I can't remember where I read it and it may not be true. John Brown and his men were hanged for their raid on Harpers Ferry, so there can't have been all that much sympathy for the abolitionists. Of course, they killed people and the idea of giving slaves guns did'nt sit too well with those who remembered Nat Turners War. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: GUEST,khandu Date: 18 Apr 01 - 10:27 PM I love it when I get to read the diverse opinions of my Mudcat friends. It delights me to see us have conflicting views and yet, try to be civil to one another in our expressions. Kim C., thank you for your kindness. Mousethief, I very much respect and admire you. I agree with a lot of what you post on the Forum. However, my friend, if you were a black traveling salesman, I would encourage you to visit Mississippi. IMHO, you would discover that we are not as you have supposed. Again, I must state; THE DAMNED FLAG IS NOT THE ISSUE!!! It is only today's focal point. khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 18 Apr 01 - 10:17 PM Sorry Troll, but the term "Copperheads" was a term of reproach applied to Northerners sympathetic to the South during & immediately after the Civil War; mostly Democrats opposed to the policies of the Lincoln Administration. Their leader was Clement Vallindigham of, if I remember correctly, Ohio. The "Knights of the Golden Circle" was their major "secret society"- similar to that other secret society, the "Knights of the White Camelia"- a.k.a. the Ku Klux Clan. Actually, the abolitionist element (small "a" as opposed to the large "A" Abolitionists like Garrison)was not universally looked down upon on the north; the Liberty Party had some major political successes as did the Free Soil Party; a large number of "come-outer" 'Presby-gational' churches were founded, breaking off from the established church hierarchies over their support of the anti-slavery/abolition question as well. The American Colonization Society's "deport them back to Africa" scheme was primarily supported by Southerners like Henry Clay and had been largely discredited by the time of the Civil War by both enlightened Whites AND by Blacks who saw no reason why they should be forced to abandon the land of their birth, and in many cases their great grand-parents' births, for an Africa they had never known. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Troll Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:35 PM Greg, of course there were those who were against slavery in both the north and south. My maternal great-grandfather,a Presbyterian minister , was among their number. And of course there was racism. You cannot keep people enslaved if you don't feel inately superior to them and that was a prevalent attitude on both sides of the M/D line. Abolitionists were looked down upon in the North. They called them Copperheads. I'm not sure of the origins of the word. They had little sympathy or political power but were quite vocal or as vocal as the communications systems of the time would allow. But please don't think that the Abolitionists felt that the freed slave would be their equal. Some sort of back-to-Africa scheme was favored by some, while others were simply against slavery on principle with no egalatarian motives. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Banjer Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:31 PM Who really cares how many of any one color or race there are? If people would stop trying to classify the different races and take surveys to see how many of each there are in a given area all would probably just go on with life. It's the folks that keep taking surveys and publishing their findings that tend to keep things stirred up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:01 PM You are, of course, right Kim- I screwed up in trying to cram too much into a short sentance. Point I was trying to make was that blacks were a majority in many of the southern states, particularly those of the "Deep South". That blacks were not an absolute majority everywhere in the south doesn't change the point, however. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:28 PM According to the National Geographic Guide to the Civil War, 1860 census figures for below the M-D line (counting KY & MD but not MO) are as follows: Whites - 5,857,885 Blacks (free and slave) - 3,267,174 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Greg F. Date: 18 Apr 01 - 05:21 PM Troll, one further comment in response to your 4/17-11:54 post. There were a substantial number of people in 1830's thru 1860's antebellum America who regarded chattel slavery as abhorent and who "at the time" regarded such sentiments as "racist crap" : 1. The abolitionists (small "a"- a varied group of political, religious & other organizations with both Black and White members, North and South) and 2.The overwhelming majority of the population residing south of Mason and Dixon's line who, though legally only three-fifths of a person each, were BLACK. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mississippi Flag Vote From: Kim C Date: 18 Apr 01 - 05:16 PM What it says is that not enough people who really cared about changing it bothered to vote. |