Holmes versus Moriarty

Subject: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Fiolar
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM

An article in the British newspaper The Guardian today suggests that Sherlock Holmes and Professor Moriarty were one and the same. Holmes apparently turned to crime when he got bored. The "death" at the Reichenbach Falls was all a ploy to fool the police. That should put the cat among the pigeons I would think.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Wavestar
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:02 PM

Umm.. *ponders fictional characters*

Sort of along these lines, I would recommend to anyone who likes intellectually interesting and sometimes challenging stories Laurie King's Mary Russell series, about the adventures of Holmes after retirement, and his new apprentice/partner. She does absolute justice to the legendary detective, while adding the interesting element of a new character. Okay, I think she's interesting.

-J

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:07 PM

......Right then......................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:53 PM

Watson: Holmes old boy, how far did you go in school?

Holmes: Elementary, my dear Watson.

I'm sorry.

Rick

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:54 PM

...........and you should be.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:59 PM

Watson: Holmes, I see Mrs Hudson has has the hall painted yellow!

Holmes: A lemon entry, my dear Watson...

LFF (Just come over from the pun thread)

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:00 PM

Damn...............hurt yourself with that one, old boy...........LOL.

Mick

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:01 PM

That was directed at Rick, but Freddy...........phew........

Mick

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:07 PM

Watson: Homlmes, what do you make of this paste residue?

Holmes: Alimentary, my dear Watson.......by the way Watson, have I ever told you what an attractive man you are? I have this little pied a terre over on Baker street, and.....

Really sorry

Rick

P.S. I don't remember what "alimentary paste" is either, but I saw it once in a Japanese Grocery store.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:15 PM

Is there anything you wish to draw to my attention Holmes ? only the curious incident of the Mudcatter my dear Watson, but the mudcatter did nothing Holmes, yes that was the curious incident.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:18 PM

Whatever ta' hell it is, it couldn't possibly smell worse than the puns on this thread...................

Why do I get the feeling that this isn't what poor old Fiolar was expecting? Then again, what could anyone expect from the original post?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:20 PM

If Conan Doyle really wrote it (which has been seriously questioned recently) he was probably in an opium stupor, so just about anything's possible.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,#2
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:26 PM

Bruce, don't leave us hanging. What's the story on who MIGHT have written it?

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:32 PM

Yeah, I want to know too. I already wasted about 12 hours of my life plumbing the Earl of Oxford's Fan sites, so I might as well do the same with A.C.D.

By the way, the original premise WOULD make an interesting story. I'm a bit surprised nobody's written it yet...or are they about to, after reading the article?

Rick

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Wavestar
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:44 PM

I think someonw has, Rick, it rings bells, but at the moment I couldn't tell you who.

-J

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:02 PM

Doesn't really matter...........Its all water over the falls now.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:13 PM

Can't relocate the one I saw first. Here's a bit along those lines.

Click

The indefatigable may want to search through those turned up by Google on 'Sherlock Holmes' and 'Conan Doyle'

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From:
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:27 PM

Watson: Holmes! I've just crossed two plants to create sweet smelling shade.

Holmes: And what is that my dear Watson?

Watson: Elm-Mint Tree.

(Be nice now. Remember I live in the South and don't know no better)

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:32 PM

"What are you listening to, Holmes?"
"Ella Fitzgerald, my dear Watson. And how is your leg?"
"Is there something wrong with my leg?"
"Elephantiasis, my dear Watson."
"Eh?"
"Come Watson, your gamey foot!"
"Holmes, you continue to baffle me. As the Inspector said, Be he never so humble, there's no police like Holmes."

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: LR Mole
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 04:02 PM

Watson, the alimentary paste," said Holmes, as the cabs rattled by handsomly,"I feel positively Baker Street irregular."
Shortly thereafter, after consuming a briar well charged with shag (equal parts tobacco and carpet), he interrupted our walk,"Watson," he inquired, "Do you know of a bog hereabout?"
"Take this left,"said I,"Up l'estrade."

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 04:15 PM

Rick, are you one of those Oxfordian Shakespeare believers? Try Sam Shoenbaum's 'Shakespeare's Lives' to see how many others were Shakespeare, too. Mark Twain (also know as Clem something or other) got it right. Shakespeare was written by another man of the same name.

I think this tread has hit bottom. It was almost there to start with.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Fiolar
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 01:23 PM

Some of this thread reminds me of the old story about the man who was paranoid about aliens and when he got home one evening found that all his possesions had been replaced by exact copies. When he metioned the fact to his wife, she said "do I know you?" Nothing to do with Holmes by the way.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 02:11 PM

Guest #1.

I said: "Yeah, I want to know too. I already wasted about 12 hours of my life plumbing the Earl of Oxford's Fan sites, so I might as well do the same with A.C.D."

Believe me, 12 hours of entertainment (so my idea of entertainment is a bit off the beaten track) is a mere heartbeat to those questioning folks who've devoted their whole lives to proving that a "tennis match" and a "coat of arms" are irrefutable proof of Oxford's claim! Although, to be fair, I have to say that I've never met a playright who was much of a grain merchant.

But being a bear for punishment, I've also spent a couple of cozy evenings with the "Richard 111 was a sweetheart" folks. Perkin Warbeck anyone?

Rick

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 02:43 PM

I don't think Holmes and Moriarty could have been one and the same. And for the same reason the article suggests he was/they were. Holmes would have been bored to tears solving crimes he committed himself. Don't you think?

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 03:17 PM

Anyone have a program that lets you see how deep you can pile hyphotheticals before the whole collapses.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Sarah2
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 07:24 PM

Well, on a more Holmes-fan note: My own favorite pastiche is The Whitechapel Horrors by Edward Hanna. I'm sure you can deduce the crimes involved. Wonderful, with great footnotes concerning both Holmes and the events in London during the autumn of 1888. Good "Conan Doyle style," too. Anyway, excellent light (hah!) reading.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,#2
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 07:26 PM

Bet someone here does.

click

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Extra Stout
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 08:43 PM

" Arthur Conan Doyle" was a nom-de-plume coined by Shakespeare and Bacon.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 09:29 PM

That of BaCon and EGS?

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 09:37 PM

Eggs are a momentary painfull incident Bacon is a lifetime commitment ask any pig, it's true. Intriguing idea that Arthur Conan Doyle didn't write Holmes. I can guarentee, Alistair Crowley didn't Kindest Reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 01:38 AM

Watson "I say Holmes, what is that peculiar looking fish?"
Holmes "A yellow manta-ray my dear Watson"

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 01:47 AM

Some awful puns here-- and how did Mr. Crowley come into the conversation?
My enemies, who treat me foully
Pronounce my name as if 'twere Crowley
But since I know that I am holy
I say it as Alastair CROWLEY

Sabine Baring-Gould deduced that Moriarty had been Holmes' mathematics tutor during childhood-- Nicholas Meyer took that and ran with it (in the Seven-percent Solution) in one of the most enjoyable Holmes pastiches IMHO. Carol, accepting the premise of the Baker Street Irregulars, (Holmes is real, and the stories are internally consistent) I agree with you that Holmes could not have been Moriarty, or he would have been very bored solving his own crimes.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Blackcatter
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 01:57 AM

As to "Did Shakespeare write all that?" One of my old profs said that "If Shakespere didn't write them, someone named Shakespere did."

I doubt it was the same with ACD - While he probably wasn't above the use of opium (I don't really know), much of his life is rather well documented as he was not one to shy away from the eye of the "Victorian Paparazzi." His forays into Spiritualism being one example.

As to Holmes and Moriarty being one and the same - I guess there is the possiblity of a "Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde" thing that went on.

What about Dr. Watson and Mrs. Hudson being one and the same?

Pax yall

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 02:24 AM

Blackcatter, Mark Twain beat your professor to it on Shakespeare's [sic] works.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 05:58 AM

There is a series of books (I think the author is R.L. Trow) about Inspector Lestrade, trying to show he's not as stupid as Holmes/Doyle makes him out (police are baffled!). Others have tried to construct stories based on the cases Watson only mentions in passing.
RtS

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 06:17 AM

Correction M.J. Trow about 2 dozen published so far (I've only read a couple)
RtS

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 10:13 AM

As early as the 1950s, detective writer John Dickson Carr and Adrian Conan Doyle (some relation) wrote the Exploits of SH which covered several of the cases mentioned as asides. Still in print according to Amazon.
RtS

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 10:45 AM

Adrian was Doyle's youngest son. Oldest son Denis was killed in WWI. His death is often seen as the breaking point for Doyle's delving into spiritualism. Lol, I know all this stuff because my sister is a highly-regarded member of the International Arthur Conan Doyle Society.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: LR Mole
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 11:57 AM

No, my dear Whatsit, it was OXO WHITNEY!!!

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 12:00 PM

Don't you mean Isah Whitney, from "The Twisted Lip"?

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Noreen
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 01:00 PM

Maybe Holmes can work out why GUEST,#2 above referred to GUEST,#1 as Bruce?

I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 01:30 PM

Noreen, regarding your question, I just hope someone (GUEST, #2, perhaps) isn't being a little too hasty in their assessment of the situation. Maybe GUEST #2 is right, but I feel a little uneasy about this approach. Maybe it's just nerves.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: Noreen
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 01:59 PM

Oh I see- I think Guest#2 is totally inaccurate. But perhaps someone who signs themselves as "GUEST# whatever" thinks they have an insight into a personality who signs themselves a similar way? It's beyond me. Holmes?

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: lady penelope
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 02:40 PM

From the Goon Show " Moriarty, where are you?" " I'm in the piano, I'm hidin' " " Don't be silly, he's been dead for years!"

I believe that the above rumour to be a fiendish plan to incurr work and therefore monies accrued by a lowley fleet street Hack! Ladies and gentlemen, I'm afraid you have allowed yourselves to be duped by that worst of criminals ...... The Free Lance Writer! I thank you.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: Holmes versus Moriarty
From: GUEST,C-BO
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:37 AM

Mudcatters, I am C-Bo (M-Bo's sister). Because he mentioned that the Mudcat Forum was discussing ACD, I had to stop by and see what was being said. As a member of the Arthur Conan Doyle Society, I can fill you all in on the details. 1.) Doyle did NOT at any time ever take opium or any other narcotic. He did make Sherlock Holmes addicted to cocaine and morphine, greatly to Watson's horror. 2.) Sorry, M-Bo Doyle did not get involved in spiritualism because of Denis' (his son's death). He attended his first seance when he was in his early 20's. Before he had even met his first wife. It was Denis' death that allowed him to understand his path as a spiritualist missionary 3.) Any claims that Doyle did not invent Holmes are LIES!!!! There has been a nasty rumor circulated of late that Doyle did not write "The Hound of the Baskervilles." This claim is made by someone who is pretending to be a scholar in order to get a book published. He claims the ghost of the REAL author of the HOUND contacted him and told him the truth. No self-respecting publisher will print the drivel. Even if there was the remote chance that Doyle didn't write HOUND, however, that book was published in 1901. The first Sherlock Holmes story was printed in 1887. Doyle clearly invented Holmes. 4.) Have you guys ever heard of the Holmes Tent Joke? It's pretty bad (along the lines of these puns). Shall I post it?