From Shula, on prejudice.

Subject: From Shula, on humour and hurt.
From: Shula
Date: 03 May 01 - 10:32 AM

I returned to the Mudcat, after a long absence, hoping to find it as I first knew it: a place enlivened with the comraderie of shared interest in folk and blues music. I found both the comraderie and something hurtful. I oppose censorship of material for adults, since I believe it to be more dangerous, in the long run, than what it seeks to control. What I support, and entreat, in the alternative, is good manners -- and kindness.

In that spirit, I want to re-introduce myself. I am an observant Jew, married, overweight, disabled, step-mother of three, mother of three more. Two of my children are adopted; my son, Joel is half Native American (Blackfoot and Cherokee), my daughter, Laura, is Vietnamese. Both of them have what are euphemistically called "special needs." I have African American nieces and nephews. My youngest brother and one of my husband's nieces are gay. And, incongruously, I was reared, till the age of fifteen, a high-church Episcopalian, in the pre-civil rights, W.A.S.P. south. I provide the bigots of the world with a goldmine of opportunity. But to people of goodwill, I offer a different kind of opportunity – the chance to look past multiple stereotypes to recognize the presence of an individual human spirit.

For those who need a way to understand the difference between what is and isn't offensive, I suggest the following two tests. If you substitute for "Jew" or "black," "Jewish human being" or "black human being," etc., is the joke still funny? If you turned around after telling the joke to find an eight or nine-year-old child watching you, and the child asked you, in curious innocence, why everyone was laughing, could you answer the question truthfully, without embarrassment?

One might suppose that I would be immune to slurs, having heard a great many. But the opposite is true: every fresh insult reawakens the memory of all the rest. I take those of you who have been posting to the "Non-Irritating…" threads at your word. Many of you have declared that you did not intend to give offense, and I believe you. I believe you wouldn't clap a friend on the back if you knew he had a sunburn. By the same token, and without criticism, I implore you, as a simple act of courtesy and kindness, since the jokes are striking already-bruised ears, to forbear -- to stop posting ethnic jokes. Please.

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 May 01 - 10:43 AM

For some great Jewish humor go to the Ohr Samayach Home Page and click on Thou Shalt Laugh. Jewish humor that Jewish people think is funny.

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 03 May 01 - 11:12 AM

I agree with you Shula. Welcome back and thank you for your comments. I don't think we ever communicated on a thread as such as I'm a relative newbie (August 1999!).

Best regards,

mcmoo

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 May 01 - 11:14 AM

I would suggest that most of you do a name search on Shula (click). She is wise, funny, loving....................and I have missed her here. I was very new and mostly lurking and observing when she left. I have read most of her posts and want you to know that she IS what Mudcat is really about. Please stay, friend Shula. This place is better for your presence.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 01 - 11:26 AM

Welcome back, Shula and many thanks for the words of wisdom. I am of Polish/English parentage. I was brought up Russian Orthodox and Roman Catholic but am now too cynical to be anything but agnostic(ish!).

I too am married and overweight (What is it with us folkies?;-)). We have 5 children, all our own and a whole host of transient friends, relatives, waifs and strays who treat our house as their own because the door is always open.

My Daughter-in-law is Jewish and boy do my son and her have fun - it's surprising how a part Cossack and a Jew can get on but that's a different story!!!

We must talk more often and make sure the threads which insult people go right to the bottom of the list by creating more possitive ones like this.

Cheers and, as a famous TV comedian used to say, may your God go with you.

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 May 01 - 11:30 AM

Shula, beloved!! Where have you been keeping your wicked self?? Pay no attention to the louts -- the louts we have always with us, like graffiti. The rest of us are still thriving, if battered. yours ever, Peter T.

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 03 May 01 - 11:38 AM

Welcome back, Shula! I wholeheartedly agree with you. Words have great power to hurt & should be used with forethought & caution; they are so much more easily said than forgotten. Why spend our precious time offending when we can be building up instead? I love the Internet; it has potential to be such a powerful vehicle for communication & relationship! I hate to see it used for negative or frivolous purposes. Please stay w/ us; there are still like-minded people here.

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Kim C
Date: 03 May 01 - 11:38 AM

Precisely why I haven't even opened any of those threads.

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 May 01 - 11:41 AM

Good call Kim C!

;-)

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 May 01 - 11:47 AM

Thanks for a great thread, Shula. Like Mick, I was a relative newcomer when you left; always heard lots about you and it always made me respect you because my friends on here who did know you obviously held you in high esteem.

Like you, we are mixed race family, including my youngest daughter who is part Cherokee and my twin 3 year old grandsons whose father is from Antigua. My brother is gay, I am bisexual and we run the gamut of spirituality.

We've had some spirited debates on here about being PC or not; Rick Fielding came up with a good one, being "ethically conscious", I think it was. I think most of us finally agreed, the last time, that it did just come down to good manners.

Yours is a very welcome voice around here. I hope you will join in more frequently now.

Thanks, again,

kat

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 03 May 01 - 11:50 AM

Yo Shula! Fancy finding you here, a catter too! I think you're the nicest character in the Archers, but I don't care for that lout of a vet you married, Alistair. And as for that good for nothing twin brother, Kenton, less said the better.

Things have been a bit dull for you since you had that romp with the doctor, but then Daniel has been running you off your feet, anyway.

And to think you're a catter too!

Seriously, welcome back. I'm a newbie too, late 1999, but I have noticed you in earlier threads I have looked out, and I like the cut of yer tops'l.

Stick around, huh? The good guys need you.

Skipjack

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 May 01 - 12:08 PM

I hope you're finding some fun with your new dulcimer too Shula. Have you checked into the PalTalk threads. As one of the originators of the Mudcat Song Circles, I think you'd be pleased to see them continuing with the aid of technology as a "live" session almost every day.

I certainly agree with your post and you have arrived back during one of the bi-monthly Mudcat Spasms. It was preceded by a warm and friendly period as these things always are. Though the subject of the spasm may change, it does often have to do with the power of words. All I would add is that many times these things get out of proportion because we also must take into account the "ear of the listener" as well as the speaker. This is tough on the net and a subject oft discussed here.

In this case, Jody probably meant no harm and were we live in 3D, perhaps we could have understood that better. But following on with the idea that words do hurt, instead of a nice note to Jody the first offense sounded much like a personal attack and that always escalates the situation. But maybe it really wasn't...........Without the sound of a voice and the look of a face, it's hard to tell. However, all too often we take the worst instead of giving the benefit of the doubt...and it goes both ways. It will sadly keep happening I suppose, but we do seem to be improving at getting through it. Now if we can just eliminate it........

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 03 May 01 - 12:22 PM

Ah, Shula, I am another ship that passed you in the night. Welcome back- I do hope you'll huddle with us to weather this storm. It too shall pass. I have completely ignored the nastiness, which is my habit on line, though I can't seem to keep myself away from 3D frays! Ignore it and it really will go away, eventually. Meanwhile, it's warm and sunny in Cow Hamster (finally!!! and I just plan to look for the violets under the muck.

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 03 May 01 - 02:12 PM

Shula,

As one who was extremely insulted by some the so-called "jokes" in those threads, and as someone who was again insulted when I tried to call attention to some particularly offensive "jokes," I thank you for saying, so eloquently, what I feel.

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 May 01 - 04:35 PM

Ah, Shula, it's so good to see you back! I tried to call you this afternoon, but I don't know if I got to the right answering machine. Is your number is the same as it was?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 01 - 05:13 PM

The old Mudcat time warp - here I am feeling I've been here for yonks, and Shula comes back after staying away since June 1999, and I hadn't checked in till after then. Out in the 3D world 1999 may be yesterday, but in here it's centuries.

But it's great to see a post like this instead of a farewell-cruel-Mudcat-world from somebody departing in a spat. So welcome home Shula.

As for the ill-judged jokes, either they are well meant but thoughtless, and it's worth reminding us all to think before we post - or they are lobbed in like stink bombs by people trying to break up the party, and the only thing to do is keep on partying. It's a big world, there have to be some nasty people around, but I think they're the exceptions on the Mudcat.

I think it's a good general principle that, if anything can be interpreted as hostile or affable, you should choose the affable interpretation, and assume that anything really offensive is meant as irony, meaning the opposite of what it seems to mean. If you're wrong, what have you lost? Whereas, if you're wrong the other way, there's a lot to be lost.

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 01 - 05:32 PM

Being a relative newcomer here myself (July, 2000), I am not familiar with your prior postings, Shula. But welcome back anyway. It is always refreshing to find a fellow Mudcatter who is able to express his or her viewpoints without flaming or attacking anyone. Thanks for that.

Best wishes,

Carol

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: IvanB
Date: 03 May 01 - 07:18 PM

Shula, I'm new enough to Mudcat that I'm sure I missed your posts in a earlier life. I sure hope you'll stick around and provide one more voice of reason here (there are plenty even though it doesn't seem so sometimes). I'm with Kim C. I don't open threads with titles that don't interest me and the rash of ethnic ones lately were certainly not of interest. The problem is that, lately, there are fewer and fewer that I feel moved to open. Hopefully we can all work together to reverse that situation.

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Banjer
Date: 03 May 01 - 07:28 PM

Hello, Shula...I too am one of the ones that came in just as you went out...I guess Kat and Big Mick and maybe even 'Spaw and I have been around about the same lenght of time, however that is measured. I have had the opportunity to read some of yu earlier posts and feel richer for it. Welcome back....

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Helen
Date: 03 May 01 - 07:29 PM

Shula! <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

Wonderful to see you here again. One of my best life memories is and always will be the women's song circle thread you started. What a party! What a great bunch of wonderful songs! And the food....!!! One of the best parties in virtuality *or* reality I have ever been to.

And I've missed your insights and warmth, and especially your straight-talking, straight-to-the-heart-of-the-matter comments.

I'll agree with Kim C. I haven't visited those threads because I was wary of what I would find there.

Helen

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Dani
Date: 03 May 01 - 07:40 PM

SHULA!!

Welcome Back!!

I'll read your diatribe later: I'm just overjoyed to see your name here!!

Dani

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 May 01 - 07:57 PM

Thanks Shula for the very thoughtful and articulate viewpoint. We've missed you.

LEJ

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Dani
Date: 03 May 01 - 09:20 PM

Of course you're absolutely right, Shula and shame on anybody who doesn't feel a twinge of recognition in your words. We've all hurt people INadvertently - how foolish to do it when we KNOW our actions will cause pain. I've been able to avoid the threads because they are so thoughtfully labelled by their misguided authors.

Now, does anyone remember the link for filtering out BS threads?

Dani

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: alison
Date: 03 May 01 - 09:52 PM

lovely to see you back Shula.... we've missed your treehouse parties.... and the girls one where we snuck food out to the fellas..........

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 May 01 - 10:10 PM

Click here for BS Filter

---

The joke threads looked like they were begging for trouble, so I stayed away from them. Sure enough, they generated lots nastiness and lots of outrage. In a forum like this, silence is often the best and most effective expression of outrage. If we all act as though outrageous posts don't exist, the posters will get the message. If we vocalize our outrage, it usually tends to encourage the troublemakers.
I suppose Max and I could be more active in editing out objectionable material, but that's not the way we've chosen to handle this sort of thing. Editing tends to provoke more than it can control, so we edit very sparingly. If I see "BS" threads that don't have a "BS" label, I will sometimes edit the thread name and add the label - and I do my best to edit out the "BS" label from all music threads.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 May 01 - 10:31 PM

Shula, I was truly moved by your posts before you faded from here. As I remember it, you were ill at that time. I do hope things are as well as they can be for you now. I, too, am disabled. Also, I'm secularly Jewish -- married to a Jehovah's Witness with a brother who was an Epicopal priest in Hawaii and then in Salt Lake City. Our son (Carol's and mine) has a website named Heathen's Haven where he posts some of his great writing---but I'm prejudiced where he is concerned. We all are doing grand things as the floats in the amazing parade go by us while we marvel at it all. Mudcat, for me, makes it possible to keep on with music a bit while I'm out of the loop and off the road. When I advocated a house-mom to watch over the site and delete some of it, I was not advocating censorship. That was never my intention.
I simply ask: Is it censorship to clean up after your dog? Is it censorship to take out the garbage once or twice a week so the kitchen (and adjoining rooms)might be a bit more fragrant? I don't think so. But it does seem to be in my family's interest that I call 911 when the gangs are gathering on our front stoop to clean their guns, offer their wares and shoot up. That is all I was trying to say in advocating some basic house cleaning. It ain't no big thing ----and it isn't censorship I was advocating for this music site either.

Yes, it's grand to see you back. I, for one, am gonna be glad to have your input if you choose to hang out with us. I'd wondered where you were.

Love,

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 01 - 10:39 PM

There was certainly a fair bit of material that was in bad taste, at best, and possibly offensively racist at worst on those threads.

However, there was also quite a lot of very thought provoking discussion about racism, humor, feelings, and how different ways of looking at what is acceptable and what isn't can be dealt with on the internet in the kindest way possible.

I highly recommend reading those threads for what can be learned from them, rather than sweeping them under the carpet and pretending they don't exist. Much the same way as I would hope we wouldn't sweep the subject of racism under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist.

But I think the only way we can move forward with the healing we so desperately need, is to conduct our discussions with compassion and humanity. Not acrimony and verbal or emotional violence.

Carol

Subject: RE: From Shula, on prejudice.
From: Night Owl
Date: 04 May 01 - 02:00 AM

welcome back Shula...GREAT to see you again!!