BS: British or European?

Subject: British or European?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 01 - 04:55 PM

Both Mrs Gnome and I filled in forms the other day. Checking our answers we found that we had both answered yes to being British citizens but while I had answered yes to being an EU citizen as well, Elaine had said 'no'.

No arguments ensued (I'm glad to say!) and we decided to let it stand. But was one of us right and one not? Or does it not matter?

Cheers

Dave the European Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 01 - 04:57 PM

Oh - comments from the US, Aus and the ROTW welcome btw - do you see Britain and Europe as being the same place?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Burke
Date: 30 May 01 - 05:20 PM

As a citizen of the US I think of the UK as a sub-part of Europe. Not the same place since France & Greece are also part of Europe, but not part of Britain. There are still some parts of Europe that are not EU, so those aren't exactly the same either. Citizenship is a bit different do you vote in EU elections, pay EU taxes, or benefit from EU services? Does the EU have a class of people it considers citizens vs. residents who are not citizens?

I happen to reside in New York State right now, so I am also a citizen of New York and the town I live in. I was not born here and my state and town citizenship has easily changed as I have moved. I'm also part of the area covered by NAFTA. I live in North America, but there is no citizenship here in the sense of voting, paying taxes, collecting Social Security, etc, that I have in local, state, and national issues. Actually, we can pay taxes & collect Social Security without being a citizen, but it's our governmental agencies that administer them.

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 30 May 01 - 05:24 PM

I've always made the distinction. That's the way I was taught in both history classes (British and Modern European) here in America. If someone uses the adjective "European" I would never assume they meant British, Scottish, Welsh or Irish (or Manx...wouldn't want to forget them!).
Isn't it normal for "islanders" to want a comfortable level of separatism?

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 05:46 PM

So are the Japanese not Asian, Karen? :-)

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 30 May 01 - 06:02 PM

Alex, don't make me have to slap you upside the head! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 06:02 PM

Oooooh, that sounds like fun! When can we start?

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 06:03 PM

Culturally and blood-linearly, Britain is definitely part of Europe. Seems to me.

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 01 - 06:04 PM

One might say a "Are you a human being or a mammal?"

As Burke points out "There are still some parts of Europe that are not EU" - most of the continent actually, which stetches geographically to the Urals and the Caucasus.

Of course with people from the United States you can never know whether when they say they are Americans they are talking in terms of that particular chunk of the continent, or geographically.

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 30 May 01 - 06:09 PM

Culturally and blood-linearly, most of the U.S. is part of Europe too!

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 01 - 06:32 PM

Britain will always be Britain, but it's still part of Europe...or "Yerp", as the Americans say. Which one of you gave the "right" answer? One might well question if there is any right answer. Is it Mars or Barsoom, that is the question...are we Earthlings or children of Sol?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 01 - 06:33 PM

As I understand it,"blood-linearly" we're all African anyway. The only real Europeans were the Neanderthals, and they don't seem to have made it through. (Though I've my doubts about that...)

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 30 May 01 - 06:47 PM

That makes things easier! Hear that, DtG? Next time you have to fill out a form write in "African". ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 30 May 01 - 08:59 PM

i see myself as brittish not european,not to sure why suppose its something to do with national identity.john

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GUEST,surprisedly pondering
Date: 30 May 01 - 11:46 PM

Funny question, DtG. Got me thinking. Are Cretans Greek? Some would say yes and some would say no. Are Quebecois Canadian? Some would say yes and some would say no. Its a personal choice of which group you identify with and whether the identification with a particular group excludes you from identifying with another. Is A a subgroup of B or are they mutually exclusive groups? I guess I've figured the UK as a sort of stepchild of the European family, linked but not as firmly as France, Denmark or Italy. That channel has a lot to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Philibuster
Date: 30 May 01 - 11:59 PM

Welcome to semantics 101...

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GUEST,Head ache ?
Date: 31 May 01 - 12:40 AM

Sheesh - since the EU arrived I suppose it is a valid question to ask.

I think it would save a load of dough to join all the civil servants and make it one big area for admin. Just a thought.

Who remembers Maggie Thatcher and the Tunnell? Boy is she ANTI Europe or what - last I read she slapped a Journalist with her hand bag for asking her "Why are you so opposed to the Euro Lady Thatcher?"

I enjoy her doings almost as much as I used love Coronation Street, but who recalls Mini Caldwell lol. Anyway it is a bit of semantic thing, I mean being European etc. Suppose in time it will be the in thing for now I am mostly a Brit Brick with flecks of Continental clay :)

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 May 01 - 03:20 AM

We're all HUMAN!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 01 - 03:42 AM

Speak for yourself, Clinton!

Dave the GNOME :-)

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 31 May 01 - 04:04 AM

British and European Citizen. If I were to move to France or Germany, I would be entitled to vote in European elections and enjoy the same rights and privileges as being at home. I think we must stop being insular. The idea of Britain as a world (Colonialist., imperialist??) power are gone. As for the pound, well I have no problem with losing that in favour of the Euro. The German states adopted a common currency 150 years ago and quickly expanded as an industrial and trading power. If the traditionalists had had their way in 1971 we'd still be using LSD (as in money, stupid!)

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 31 May 01 - 04:15 AM

Burke's point about the voting is a good one. We do, so we are. Perhaps part of the problem is that the British haven't quite grasped the idea of federalism ...yet?

I'm Canadian, and I'm Welsh, and I'm European. I refrain from saying I'm British only as a protest: too many English (including the Media - despite the BBC issuing guidelines) and a huge proportion of the rest of the planet, seem to use British and English interchangeably, which is just wrong.

The British also sometimes refer to me as an American; when I correct them, they point out their 'continental' reference, which is codswollop 'cause they'd never call a Mexican an American.

That's m' tuppence-worth, anyway.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 31 May 01 - 04:39 AM

DtG

Confusing isn't it?

Forms in NZ offered the choice Maori/European/Other - for "ethnic origin". I think "European" is now replaced by "Caucasian" - now ain't that confusing McGrath?

I'm a "Kiwi" - 5th generation model - of mongrel origin...;)

A century or more ago, NZ turned down the offer of joining in as part of Australia. The topic crops up regularly, and has surfaced again recently. It may eventuate in my lifetime - in which case I'll have to face up to your UK/EU "nationality" decision.

Ummm....

No offence to my cobbers on the "West Island" of New Zealand, but if we ever amalgamate, I'll be incapable of checking an [Oz] box....;)

I'm a Stewart Islander and have enough trouble clicking the [NZ] box. When I head to "town", I go to the "mainland" or if I'm grizzly "New Zealand".

Karen has it summed up, with her comment about the insularity of "islanders". And, I guess the smaller your island's population, the higher the degree of insularity. Our permanent population is 350.

A "Sheltie" would probably be more than a bit grumpy about being called "British". Let's face it - if I lived on Yell and said I was going to Mainland - I'd be going to the largest island of the Shetland group - not even Scotland, on the "mainland" of the UK....;)

I'm amazed that "American/Canadian" hasn't appeared yet. And, how would a resident of Punta Arenas handle checking off [American] as nationality on a form?

Ain't the philosophical complexities of this thread wonderful? Words, and the way we use 'em are wonderful.

I've filled the whisky glass.

Here's a toast to "globalisation" (as enjoyed through Mudcat) and to "insularity" (as enjoyed through life).

Also to "humanity" and especially "gnomanity"..')

Sláinte - Sam - Stewart Island (NZ)

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Gervase
Date: 31 May 01 - 04:43 AM

I'm a British subject (and how I resent that word!) and a citizen of Europe.
And, having travelled much of Europe, I can't wait for greater integration and for the insular Little-Englanders of the Tory party to be consigned to a little cabinet of historical curiosities alongside the flat-earthers and the learned men of Laputa.

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 01 - 05:29 AM

Of course with people from the United States you can never know whether when they say they are Americans they are talking in terms of that particular chunk of the continent, or geographically.

--McGrath of Harlow

What else are we supposed to call ourselves? United Statesians? You can pretty much take it for granted that when people from the U.S. call themselves 'Americans', they are refering to their nationality. That's the choice we have available to us right now.

I know at least one Canadian who would be very quick to correct anyone who refered to him/her as an 'American'.

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GUEST,Scabby Doug (on cookie-eating PC)
Date: 31 May 01 - 05:54 AM

Hmmmm... I think a lot of Scots would declare for European, rather than being British. But to be honest, I think that'd mostly be so that we can annoy the English!

On the other hand, Scotland has always had closer historical ties with mainland Europe than England (again, mostly so that we could annoy the English).

(is there a theme developing here?)

In fact, and through legal necessity, Scots driving on the mainland have to carry "GB" identification on their cars, and most Scots will also place "Ecosse" or "Alba" stickers too..

I know many people who'd leave on the "Ecosse" sticker, but on returning home, throw away the GB sticker...

I don't claim to have any definitive idea of what people in this part of the world think.. people have their own idea of what cultural and social bonds exist between the different parts of the UK and Europe...

but I know that William Hague is barking up the wrong tree in whining on about the loss of the Pound in the election campaign. Most people I've spoken to couldn't care less... as a sign of national identity - the Pound Sterling doesn't cut it, it seems....

Cheers

Steven

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 31 May 01 - 06:33 AM

What about the inhabitants of St Pierre et Michelon? They're in the European Union, so are they Europeans? They are part of the American continent so are they also Americans? Are they jusqua Canadiens? Or are they just French?

Come on you St Pierre et Michelonians, we need to hear from you!

(Thanks to France and Spain including their overseas territories as part of the European Union, Europe (politically rather than geographically) spreads a bit further than you would think, and includes bits of America, Africa and Asia. Europe, coming to a continent near you soon!

Les

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 31 May 01 - 09:25 AM

I'm with Gervase here . . . though I suspect legally my citizenship is of the UK, which gives me fewer rights and a weaker democracy than it would in many other European nations.

It's strange . . you don't have to go back very far in our history to find times when Britain saw itself intellectually very much a part of Europe; this estrangement is a very recent (post WW-II, IMO) thing.

What's wrong with being British AND European?? And proud of both aspects of my heritage.

And as for getting rid of the £ - well it would at least remove the constant reminders of our subjugation to the House of Windsor (as it re-christened itself when its Germanic origins became "unfashionable"). I find it very hard to take "concerns" of "loss of sovreignty" seriously when our sovereign power is an unaccountable hang-over of the Divine Right to Rule . . and between that household and our democratic process we also have that absurd geriatric hospital sometimes called the House of Lords!

(Rant over!)

Cheers!

George

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Grab
Date: 31 May 01 - 09:41 AM

As a sign of sovereignty, the pound is irrelevant. But as an economic point, it is important. Given the massive level of corruption in the EU (it makes Neil Hamilton look like an amateur), I'm not sure we'd really want the EU running the economy of every member country. Besides which, it's not like every country is in a similar financial situation - the economic difference between Greece and Germany for instance is enormous, so they require different solutions.

Graham.

Subject: Sod Europe!
From: Ringer
Date: 31 May 01 - 10:05 AM

Culturally European? Not so. Our culture has more similarities with USA than Europe (or doesn't language count?). I'm English first, British a poor second and European only because of Geography (and, at a push, I acknowledge because UK is a member of the EU, too).

And the pound may be irrelevant as a sign of sovereignty but (as you admit, Grab) is immensely significant in terms of actual sovereignty. Why do we want to ally ourselves to a failing currency? I predict that it will fall to pieces within 5 years.

I detest this concept of Europe as a political rather than purely geographic entity.

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 31 May 01 - 10:10 AM

Since when do the Americans speak the same language as us? We have to be part of Europe or we risk falling behind and isolated in terms of European trade. Europe (including Britain) must act as a counterbalance to the might (and political outlook) of the USA

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 01 - 11:49 AM

There is no continent called "America." There is a South America, and a North America. The two of them together are sometimes called "The Americas." But there is no continent called "America."

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 31 May 01 - 12:32 PM

I thought that they just divided America up that way so that it would fit in the atlas better! What about Central America then? Where is the dividing line between North and South? I would guess Panama 'cos there's a bit of a line down there. But don't worry, Alex - we've got some Europe in the Caribbean and in South America as well. I think we just do it to make it cheaper for you to have a European holiday!

I was just trying to point out how silly the concept of a European Union citizen can end up being. If the UK did the same thing and included its own overseas territories as well, it would get even sillier.

Most of the citizens of the EU have spent centuries beating the crap out of each other. If the EU only stops us doing that, I'm all for it. As for myself, I don't care. I'll just try to be as human as I can.

Les

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 31 May 01 - 12:38 PM

As this is supposed to be a music discussion group. Mentally imagine "European" Folk Music, now do the same thing with "British" Folk Music. There you have your answer. JohnB

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Ringer
Date: 31 May 01 - 12:50 PM

We have to be part of Europe or we risk falling behind and isolated in terms of European trade. I don't see why. We have the world's 4th largest economy (we were only 5th till the falling value of the Euro dropped France's GDP below ours); why should it be thought that we aren't big enough to stand alone? Will Switzerland, Malasia, etc, all fall behind? And if it's just European trade you're talking about, we run a trade deficit with Europe anyway; will they stop selling to us if we don't join the Euro? And why should they stop buying? Don't they buy from USA?

Europe (including Britain) must act as a counterbalance to the might (and political outlook) of the USA. I don't see that, either, not being paranoid about the USA. An alternative way of looking at it might be that we need to separate ourselves from the corruption of Mediterranean Europe and continuing German dreams of world domination (all right, I am paranoid about Europe, spit, spit).

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GUEST,Ouch give me an Aspro no make it a pack lol
Date: 31 May 01 - 12:51 PM

Stop this silly charade! You know very well we are an Island race and not giving in to Wine and Coffee and other un Beer un Fish n Chip and and and .... stop it right away......

The Poind is here to stay if the Eurocrats need a currency they should use the British Poind - so there and if they want a language they should use English !

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: radriano
Date: 31 May 01 - 01:58 PM

Seems to me that if you look at a map Britain is physically not a part of Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 01 - 02:08 PM

That's pushing it, Radriano. My parents live on an island about 20 miles from the mainland; are they therefore not North Americans?

---

"Central America" is a political and not a geographical distinction. The only continents over here are North and South America. "Central America" is a part of the continent of North America. This can be easily seen on a map.

The dividing point between North America and South America is pretty easy -- I'd make it the point at which the Panama ithsmus touches the mainland of South America proper. It's far easier than determining where, east of the Black Sea but south of the Urals, Asia ends and Europe begins!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 31 May 01 - 05:32 PM

I suspect that most Americans would not include the British Isles (including Ireland , Scotland, Wales etc.) in any description of European, since the Brits et. al. speak "our" language, English. This may be based on ignorance, preference, or on regionalism.

"Continental" or "European" is frequently thought of in conjuction with speaking one of those "foreign" tongues, like Spanish, French or German. And while many Americans will often lose interest in hearing anything in those foreign tongues, they will sit for hours to overhear Scots, Irish, Welsh, English, and yes, even Canadian accents. And one of my dearest West Virginian friends told me that, to him, Australians sound like Englishmen with bad colds.

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 31 May 01 - 06:15 PM

Bald eagle - I've met very few Europeans that do not have a reasonable understanding of English so I hardly think that language is an issue to divide us in this day and age. How are we culturally near to the U.S.A? -I have worked for American and French companies and have found cultural differences in both. I cannot think on a day to day level of anything that we do in this country, the States or in any European country, that isn't the same because that's globalisation for yer. In Europe, the cultural differences that we have say musically, are compensated by shared experience in sport which we do not share with the USA. On an everyday basis I do not see myself as anything, when the Test Match is on I see myself as English, when the football is on I pretend to be German (joke) but I would prefer not to be anything at all because I am not a great beliver in dividing people up into nations -it only creates bother! I am however proud to be part of Europe and am aggrivates by the xenophobia/racism that still exists in this land.

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 01 - 06:21 PM

If they had a summit meeting of European heads of state, and the PM were left out, would he be angry?

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: DougR
Date: 31 May 01 - 06:28 PM

United Statesians, Carol C.? Well, it's got a ring to it, doesn't it? :>)

BRITISH, you are BRITISH! At least that's how I think of you.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 31 May 01 - 06:36 PM

Not only would the PM be angry mousethief, but you could guarantee mass paranoia in the anti-European lobby as well!

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 01 - 06:40 PM

If the PM would be angry, then at least the PM thinks Britain is part of Europe.

QED.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: GUEST,On the Hop
Date: 31 May 01 - 07:02 PM

If someone can be African American could I be English European ?

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: JeZeBeL
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:59 AM

Geographically speaking,I would say "BRITISH" as we cannot be part of europe as we are not joined to the continent (bar the channel tunnel).

I know historically we have always thought of ourselves as being seperate to europe, but if you think about it, we are a mixture of that many different nationalities that we should be classed as "EUROPEAN". I mean the vikings came over and god knows who else. I'm sorry I'm not a very historical person.

I don't think we can class ourselves as anything except international as we have that many different cultures and nationalities bred into us over time that we are not "pure" brittons. When I say we, I mean everyone in the world..........

Please don't shout at me......

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: DougR
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 01:39 AM

Guest On Hop, why not!

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 05:19 AM

Well put Jezebel -frankly I do not know many 'English' who cannot claim at least some Irish Scottish Welsh or other ancestry, which is why being English is fairly irrelevant and also makes it difficult for some of us to get het up about this rush for wanting a National identity. As for the pound Sod the Queen -any coin that doesn't carry a reminder of the farce of sovereignty is ok in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 05:25 AM

tut Tut Ickle Dorrit. You should be thrown into the Tower and have your head cut off for such seditious talk!
*BG*

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 06:27 AM

At a European meetings of Heads of State there might be problems with other nations. The United kingdom isn't the only constitutional monarchy in the EU, and other nations have a separate president and political head (Ireland, France for example). We've even got a Grand Duchy in Europe (there's not many of those about these days).

So from a European point of view having the political leader of the country the same as the Head of State is a bit unusual. Perhaps it is you United Statesians who are a bit out of step! Bear in mind that if you need a non-political Head of State, I could do it for a while but I won't be free till the end of July!

Acting Grand Duke Les

Subject: RE: BS: British or European?
From: mooman
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 06:37 AM

Maybe I'm missing something here but isn't Europe a "continent"?

Avoiding the currently politically charged question of "British" and "Europe" (I have Irish nationality by the way!), England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, The Isle of Man, Anglesey, the Hebrides, Orkneys, Shetland, Scilly Isles, Isle of Wight and any other attached or unattached bits of aforementioned places are technically "European"?

Plus of course all the other non-EU and non-EFTA countries technically within the continent of Europe!

I think Burke and McGrath have both made the same points.

mooman