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BS: Separation of church & state lessened
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Subject: Separtion of church & state lessened From: katlaughing Date: 13 Jun 01 - 03:31 PM On today's Talk of the Nation on NPR, they discussed the new ruling by the US Supreme Court which says schools have to allow evangelical groups, and by inference virtually any group, to hold meetings in schools. The ruling, which you can read about HERE was a case in upstate New York. I am trying to comment in an even-handed way, as I would like to hear your opinions in an equal tone, however it is difficult. I feel this is one more erosion of the wall between church and state. The group which sued the school for access, specifically invites the youngest children of school to their meetings immediately after school for the purpose of "saving" them. Because of the ruling, all schools in the U.S. will have to open the doors to any type of group which wishes to use their facilities. One American, who has lived in Germany for twenty years and whose son is in a German school, phoned into the show. He said all children, there, from kindergarten through 4th grade, have to attend religious instruction classes during their school day. According to him, they have a choice of Roman Catholic or Lutheran. His son was prepared, in school, for his first communion by the local priest. When asked what a person was supposed to do if they were Jewish, he had no answer, except that a better question might be what to do if one is Muslim, as they have so many immigrants. I would like to hear from some of you who live in Germany, if this is true, please. The extremist Christians in America have had a steady agenda, mapped out and brilliantly executed, in which they've inveigled their way onto nearly every type of board, committee, political position etc. in our country. They have made no mystery of this and their intentions to "return" our country to what they percieve to be what is morally right, that is extremely conservative Christian. This feels to me as though they've just taken away another bit of our freedom from religion and it troubles me a great deal. Comments sans bashing, please? Thanks, kat
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: jeffp Date: 13 Jun 01 - 03:47 PM kat, the ruling, as I understand it, simply prevents the schools from discriminating against religious groups. If a school allows secular groups to use the schools for meetings, then they must give the same privileges to religious groups. A school can simply refuse to let any non-school groups use the facilities and therefore legally thumb their noses at the religious groups. jeffp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: MMario Date: 13 Jun 01 - 03:49 PM seperation of church and state was suppossed to prevent the state from persecuting the religious - it was not meant to PREVENT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: CarolC Date: 13 Jun 01 - 03:49 PM Maybe this is a good thing in disguise. Maybe it will also open the doors for members of other, less established religions, like Pagans and Buddists, to meet in schools as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: jeffp Date: 13 Jun 01 - 03:54 PM CarolC, I like the way you think. The group that won this ruling appears rather scary to me. Perhaps the answer to them is not prohibition, but competition. Show the kids that there are many paths to choose among. jeffp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: Bev and Jerry Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:00 PM If a school refuses to let any non-school group use the facilities, they would be excluding the cub scouts, little league, brownies and even the PTA. In some school districts in California, at least, the PTA is considered a non-school group. Also, in some districts in California, after school religous training has been occurring for some years using school facilities. In other places, a religous group maintains a trailer parked in the street right in front of the school and students are given time during the school day to get religous instruction there. We have seen all of these things ourselves. Bev and Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: mousethief Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:06 PM The question from my POV is, why should the chess club be allowed to use school facilities to meet, but not the bible club? As Mmario tried to say, the separation of church and state is supposed to prevent the state endorsing one religion over another; it's not supposed to be the state impeding any and all religions. This particular "club" requires parental permission before kids can join. It's not like there's a bunch of wild-eyed fundamentalists luring people's kids away from them. Kat, I think (respectfully of course) you're overreacting. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: Linda Kelly Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:14 PM Can someone please clarify -is there no religious education in American schools? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: mousethief Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:17 PM No, there is not, Ickle D. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: MMario Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:23 PM Various denominations have their own schools where they may teach religion. But in the normal day to day schools at most you get an sketchy overview of the greek, roman, norse - presented as "mythology" - and the historical development of the major judeo-christian-islamic branches. A few schools might give an overview as well of various other belief systems - but no depth to any of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: lady penelope Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:24 PM I'm with the French on this one. Schools and religion should not be mixed ( except as a subject for academic study ). In England cubs and brownies do not meet in schools but in church or community halls. Can you imagine a christian evangelical group being happy about sharing school premises with a pagan group? Or even, in some cases, a jewish group? Kids have enough to contend with while they are growing up, why lump this onto them? I may be quite wrong about this, but I get the picture that outside groups can have a large influence on what goes on in school in the states, whereas in england it is quite hard for this to occur. All schools need money, but unfortunately this can be used as a lever to serve a minority's purpose. I'm not against religious groups bringing their message to the young. I'm a pagan and for about three years ( from when I was about seven ) I attended a "friday night club" at the church at the end of my street. My parents are catholic and the church was protestant, but as far as they were concerned the people who ran it were good people. We played games, made stuff, did some cooking and at then end of the evening we had a teaching sermon and sang some hymns. But this was Church of England type christianty, gentle and encouraging and non- judgmental ( even the hindu kids from the bottom end of my street came) , we were not there to be "saved" or harried or worried about commiting sin. Unfortunately, how do you make sure that that is how ALL the groups that take up this privilage of being able to use scholl premises, treat it this way? I worry that this may give children another reason to be afraid of going to school. TTFN M'Lady P. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: CarolC Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:27 PM Ickle Dorritt, there can be religious education in schools that are not run by the government. In the U.S. such school are called 'private' schools. Schools that are run by the government are called 'public' schools.
Private schools can provide religious education because to do so would not violate the 'Separation of Church and State' provision in our constitution. Public schools, being run by the government, cannot provide religious education because that would be in violation of our constitution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: katlaughing Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:27 PM One woman called in from Texas. She volunteers in a school district which is very poor with a lot of immigrants. Her concern was that permission slips written in English and brought home to parents who may not be able to read English will have no idea of what they are signing. That was just one of the interesting points which came up. They will have the show archived, tomorrow, if anyone cares to listen to it at www.npr.org. I am not saying there should be prevention of religion, but I am saying we have to be sure we maintain freedom FROM religion, if that is our choice for our children. As far as minority groups getting a boost, in most places they are so outnumbered, it is unrealistic to think they'd have the wo/manpower to reach all children and their parents who might be interested. It's a matter of sheer numbers, IMO. I'd like to think it might be good in some way. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: mousethief Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:29 PM Mmario, not sure where you went to school. We covered a tiny bit of religion in "Humanities" class in high school, an elective taken by very few students in 11th and 12th grades. It was about as even-handed as these things can be, and we were nearly shut down by the local Baptist churches for teaching about other religions besides Xianity. Other than that one class, you might have thought religion had completely faded from American life. "Pilgrim" was defined as "one who takes a long trip" for example in our history texts. We're so religionophobic in this country we're distorting history all out of countenance. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: SeanM Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:34 PM I'm with JeffP in my interpretation of the issue, and I also think it bodes well for the "faith based charity" initiatives. As I read the ruling, it stated that to allow outside organizations to use your facilities (as a school) meant letting any group have the same chance at using them. Hopefully, this will be held to cover any state property or programs. As it is, I'd also like to point out that the BSA and other similar groups already have a 'religious' leaning. I can quite clearly remember the section on "god and my country" in the various pledges, and I remember friends in other 'packs' and 'troupes' with more evangelically minded scoutmasters where religion was a big part of the routine. But, on the whole, I'll agree with Alex as well - Kat, you may be overreacting slightly on this one. After all, the court DID just rule that the 'ten commandments' were inappropriate and unconstitutional for display on school grounds. And, if it helps, think of it this way - while the group in question is a religious one of dubious nature, it has opened the way for ALL groups in need of a place to hold meetings - christian, green, NRA, scouts, Klan, what have you. At the very least, it could be really funny (in a sad, "let's see how big the explosion is" kinda way) M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: mousethief Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:34 PM Well the language thing is a problem, Kat, as you say. I may have to backpedal; living here in Atheist Country, where even the social conservatives don't go to church, it's hard for me to imagine the harm of an after-school church group for kids that want it. We had one court case (not taken up by the ACLU; I wonder why they never defend the rights of ordinary Christians?) in which every religious group, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, whatever, was allowed to meet on campus except the evangelical Christians. The Christians sued and won the right to meet with all the others. So it seems to me the danger goes more the other way in these parts. But in Texas things are presumably different, I'll admit. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: MMario Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:45 PM granted it's been mumblety years - but we got the greek roman and norse stuff in grammer school - as I said - covered under "mythology" development of the catholic and orthodox churches, the islamic branches and the protestant denominations in Jr. high as part of European/world history a brief overview of various eastern religions as part of world geography in HS. as most of my nieces and nephews have seen about the same progression and coverage - and they are in 4 different states - I figgered that to be about normal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: mousethief Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:51 PM My kids have only seen stuff on religion in honors classes; not in regular classes. It's mostly wrong (from a historical pov), alas. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: Jim Dixon Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:18 PM I too find this decision a bit worrisome, but I can't think of any easy way to draw the line between private groups that ought to be let in vs. those that ought to be kept out of public schools. It's interesting that the guy on MPR who represented the Good News Club said he wasn't against pagans, Muslims, etc. also using the public schools. I predict that elsewhere most fundamentalist groups will be outraged if Scientologists, Wiccans, Nation of Islam, etc. try to hold meetings in public schools. I just hope they don't use violence or intimidation to keep them out, since they obviously won't be able to use legal means any more to keep them out. Unless, of course, we ban ALL private groups from public schools -- Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, whatever -- which, now that I think about it, is probably not such a bad idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: Ebbie Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:20 PM Mousethief, am I wrong in thinking that 'ordinary' Christians hold the ACLU in such disregard, they wouldn't think of appealing to them to take their case? Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: DougR Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:21 PM Kat, I'm with Alex on this one. I don't think the sky is gonna fall because some church group of any religion has a meeting at the school house. Those folks probably pay taxes too, and the school is supported by taxes, so I don't see a basis for barring them. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: Stevangelist Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:50 PM Probably no one will give a crap what I have to say, being one of those 'ordinary' Christians (or is it extreme fundamentalists?)... But the separation of church and state is defined (very succinctly and eloquently) in the Constitution: CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW ESTABLISHING RELIGION (and here's the part the liberals always forget) OR PREVENTING THE FREE EXCERCISE THEREOF. Once again, the 'new tolerance' dictates that the pagans and everybody else are being 'pushed around' by the Bible-toting militia of the 21st century church, but who cares if the OTHER religions bash us? The people with their other belief systems seem to have no problem calling us extremists and using the phrase 'in my opinion' to justify calling Christians everything short of Nazis... but if I offer MY OPINION, I get called a religious bigot with no sense of respect for others' beliefs. Whatever. Let 'em all use the damned school... just shut up about it, already. May The Road Rise To Meet You, Stevangelist
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: CarolC Date: 13 Jun 01 - 06:11 PM Stevangelist, does your 'opinion' allow for the possibility of the existence of beliefs other than your own? If the answer is 'no', I think that might be the answer to your queston. If the answer is 'yes', then maybe you need to look at the tone you use in delivering your opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: mousethief Date: 13 Jun 01 - 06:26 PM Ebbie, I think you're right there. However, the ACLU doesn't just take cases that are referred to it. They scour the caseloads looking for things that need supporting, or at least that THEY think need supporting. If I had endless time and money I would join the ACLU just so there was a "religious conservative" among their ranks, and go to all the meetings and try to make the point that Christians have civil rights too, and sometimes the state tries to infringe thereupon. Mark, you need to tone it down a bit, son. One catches more flies with honey than vinegar and all that. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: M.Ted Date: 13 Jun 01 - 06:27 PM Stevangelist has a very good point--I have often noticed that there is a strong prejudice among many self-proclaimed enlightened people against Christians--I have often thought that Christians ought to declare themselves a religious minority in order to get their rights protected--
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: mousethief Date: 13 Jun 01 - 06:30 PM And if my rights were being infringed due to my religion, I would definitely go to the ACLU, just to have the pleasure of having them turn me down (or take my case -- either would be a pleasure!). Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: CarolC Date: 13 Jun 01 - 06:47 PM As of right now, Christians still have more rights than Pagans. It can and does happen that in parental custody disputes, being a Pagan can be used as a reason to grant the non-Pagan parent custody of the child. I'm not a Pagan myself, but a Christian attorney tried to use the possibility that I might be a Pagan as a big part of his case against me in a custody battle. Had I actually been a Pagan, and had I admitted it, I could very well have lost custody of my child. It has happened to some people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: mousethief Date: 13 Jun 01 - 06:49 PM That sounds like an ideal case for the ACLU to take up the ladder of the courts. Someday they shall. Eventually we will have real freedom of religion in this country. But we will (alas!) have to fight for it every step along the way. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: CarolC Date: 13 Jun 01 - 06:54 PM I agree, Alex, but believe it or not, the ACLU wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: Bill D Date: 13 Jun 01 - 07:02 PM the interesting part to me, was that some of the literature and permission slips for the 'meetings' was being offered IN the school classes....thus making it an issue for the kids who could NOT go to these meetings. If all it was was using the rooms for meetings, I'd have no particular problem, but the point of 'separation', I thought, was to avoid the kids having to be confronted with 'issues' about religion, rather that simple 'facts' about comparative religion. there are plenty of school rooms open.,..let 'em meet...but do NOT make attending these meetings part of the school discussion and do NOT allow posters and literature favoring any particular religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: mousethief Date: 13 Jun 01 - 07:04 PM Sounds right, BillD. I didn't realize they were passing out stuff in class; that is wrong. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: Bill D Date: 13 Jun 01 - 07:31 PM hey! mark this down...a genuine agreement without any missles being thrown...there IS hope! *smile* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: SeanM Date: 13 Jun 01 - 07:55 PM *hefts slightly limp carrot across room* There, Bill... one missle for you. Hadn't heard that they were using school resources or time either - it's been very clearly stated by a few commentators that I've heard (and not naysaid by the news media) that it was a simple matter of using the classrooms for afterschool meetings. I also don't think that's what the case brought before the court was, or did I miss that part? It's definitely worthwhile to look into. By just having the meetings on the grounds, I don't feel that there is any way to claim that the group is pressuring kids to join (at least with the appearance of sanction by the school). However, using school time and classroom time to push the club... THAT is (I'm reasonably certain) against the 'separation of church and state' issue. I'd no more expect a child to have to be proselytized in class than I would a child be taught geography during the midst of whatever religious service they opted for. Unless they were Flat Earthers... M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: Bill D Date: 13 Jun 01 - 08:04 PM being from Kansas, flat earth used to seem perfectly reasonable to me! ;>) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: Gary T Date: 13 Jun 01 - 08:07 PM Stevangelist pointed out "CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW ESTABLISHING RELIGION (and here's the part the liberals always forget) OR PREVENTING THE FREE EXCERCISE THEREOF." This issue is a matter of the first part. Anytime a government entity is involved with religious practices, it is, to some degree, establishing religion. As far as the free exercise of religion, anyone can do so on his own time and with his own resources. We have free speech, but you can't commandeer MY printing press to further YOUR speech. Likewise, OUR school is not suitable to practice YOUR religion. Do it in church and at home and no one will be complaining. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: sophocleese Date: 13 Jun 01 - 08:13 PM Well a timely thread this one as our local city council decided on Monday night to reinstall the reading of the Lord's Prayer before council meetings. The next stage is to see if it will stand up under law. Sometimes I love this place and think it's great. Sometimes I wonder what I'm doing surrounded by such hicks that think Walmart means progress and that saying the Lord's Prayer before meetings either isn't discriminatory to non-christians or don't think the discrimination matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: katlaughing Date: 13 Jun 01 - 08:13 PM Stevangelist, I am sorry you feel that way. I had specifically tried to not paint all Christians with a broad brush and also asked that we keep a civil tone in this thread, i.e. no bashing. Last time I checked, Christianity was still in the majority and not really suffering from any inquisitions, etc. Eever stop to think that maybe the reason all of us in the minority might be being so vocal is because it is the first time in a couple of thousand years, give or take a few, that it has been even a little bit safe for us to do so? Alex, I believe that is the same reason the ACLU may seem biased to you. They've been speaking out for and advocating the minorities which have had no concerted voice as Christians have for so long. It is important for us all to remember that it has not been that long, in the manner of history, that minorities of all kinds, have had any kind freedom approaching that of what the majority have had for much longer. BillD, thanks. I had not heard that. I totally agree with what you've stated. kat
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: catspaw49 Date: 13 Jun 01 - 08:59 PM In another life I would have been an ACLU lawyer. The very fact that they seem to anger people on all sides proves they do their job. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Jun 01 - 09:31 PM Here in the western part of Canada I live in, there are separate school systems for Catholic and non-Catholic children, supported by the taxpayer (you specify to which system your tax goes to). This means that Catholic and non-Catholic children often have separate groups of friends, and mixing mostly takes place at off-school ground events. Now, other groups- Muslim, Etc., also have schools and are seeking to come under the umbrella of the public system. I may be wrong (writing here out of ignorance), but the Jewish community seems to be split between the public system, private schools, and some Jewish-sponsored schools. This province (Alberta) also contributes to private schools, both secular (public) and religious ("separate"). All of these schools require physical plants, teachers and administrators, diluting taxpayers money. In one smaller community, it was actually proposed and discussed that a wall be built down the middle of the school to separate Catholic and non-Catholic- separate physical plants cost too much. Now well-to-do parents are more and more sending their children to private schools ("shared costs with the government") I find the system is divisive and emphasizes racial, religious and ethnic stereotypes, since each group will end up seeking their own kind in the name of "multiculturalism." There are differences from province to province, so I cannot speak for eastern Canada or the "nation" of Quebec. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: DougR Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:54 PM I wish I could be as supportive of the ACLU as so many of you are, but I think they are biased too. I've never seen them take up the cause of a conservative. Perhaps they have, and I'd be happy to hear about it if someone knows of such a case. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: Bert Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:14 PM Kat, I'm with you all the way on this. It appears to me to be another attack on our freedom. Unfortunately I expect to see a lot more of this in the next four years. It's a sore point with me how the Christian religion is allowed to affect those of us who are not Christian. I'll say no more on this subject until I'm allowed to buy a bottle of wine on a Sunday. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:27 PM The separation of church & state just received another hit below the waterline here in Oz. Our Governor General designate ( our unelected head of state and the commander in chief of the armed forces ) is an anglican minister. He says he is going to wear a business suit Monday to Saturday but will don the religious attire for Sundays. Yes, I did say Oz, and not Nigeria. JG/FME. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: catspaw49 Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:39 PM uh, Doug, I'd have to figure the American Nazi Party and the Klan to be pretty conservative................. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: katlaughing Date: 14 Jun 01 - 12:00 AM Thanks, Bert and Spaw. From www.aclu.org:
ACLU Statement on Defending Free Speech of Unpopular Organizations NEW YORK--In the United States Supreme Court over the past few years, the American Civil Liberties Union has taken the side of a fundamentalist Christian church, a Santerian church, and the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In celebrated cases, the ACLU has stood up for everyone from Oliver North to the National Socialist Party. In spite of all that, the ACLU has never advocated Christianity, ritual animal sacrifice, trading arms for hostages or genocide. In representing NAMBLA today, our Massachusetts affiliate does not advocate sexual relationships between adults and children. What the ACLU does advocate is robust freedom of speech for everyone. The lawsuit involved here, were it to succeed, would strike at the heart of freedom of speech. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not. It is easy to defend freedom of speech when the message is something many people find at least reasonable. But the defense of freedom of speech is most critical when the message is one most people find repulsive. That was true when the Nazis marched in Skokie. It remains true today. A legal brief filed in the case can be read online at http://www.aclu.org/court/nambla.pdf
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Jun 01 - 12:22 AM Oh that one was a winner for them publicity wise! EVERYBODY hated them! The ACLU has only one client, the Constitution and it's amendments. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: mousethief Date: 14 Jun 01 - 12:29 AM I have a hard time seeing how a bunch of little kids praying in a school building either (a) establishes a religion as a state religion (that's what "establishing a religion" means), or (b) infringes on anybody else's rights, as long as they're allowed to use the building too. I fear y'all have been silenced so long that now that you are allowed to speak, you have lost the ability to discriminate between true infringement, and something that is fun to bitch about but isn't really infringement at all. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: DougR Date: 14 Jun 01 - 12:43 AM Uh, not me, Spaw. I consider them extremist. Should I assume that you consider all conservatives extermists? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: SeanM Date: 14 Jun 01 - 12:52 AM Doug; Like 'em or not, extremist or not, they still espouse a predominantely 'conservative' agenda. They're out on the far fringe (as some of the radical ecoterrorists are out on the 'liberal' fringe), but they're still there. M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: katlaughing Date: 14 Jun 01 - 12:54 AM Alex, I do not go around looking for things that are "fun to bitch about." The extremist agenda would have it much worse if they had their way. I consider it a duty to speak up when I feel there is an injustice. As has been said before, religion should be taught at home. Have their meetings at home, or better yet in their own chuches and stay out of the schools. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Separtion of church & state lessened From: CarolC Date: 14 Jun 01 - 01:00 AM Alex, I think there are a lot of aspects of this issue that are difficult to distill into any kind of simple terms.
As an example...
I was raised in a Protestent denomination. My school allowed the local Catholic Church to use the school for catechism classes after school hours. On my way home, I used to have to walk past the children who were waiting for catechism to start, as they taunted me and shouted to me that I was going to go to hell.
Fortunately for me, I didn't believe them and wasn't too troubled by what they said. And I considered myself lucky that I didn't have to go to catechism. Still, I think it can be safely said that I was infringed upon in some way by that scenario. And not all children in such a scenario come away from that kind experience unscarred. So how do we insure that these kinds of things don't happen? |