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BS: Extreme prejudice and friends

InOBU 23 Jun 01 - 04:54 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 01 - 01:07 PM
InOBU 23 Jun 01 - 08:50 AM
DougR 23 Jun 01 - 01:57 AM
Little Hawk 22 Jun 01 - 01:20 PM
M.Ted 22 Jun 01 - 01:09 PM
8_Pints 22 Jun 01 - 01:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jun 01 - 11:31 AM
8_Pints 22 Jun 01 - 08:40 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jun 01 - 08:48 PM
8_Pints 21 Jun 01 - 08:26 PM
mooman 21 Jun 01 - 07:55 PM
DougR 21 Jun 01 - 07:27 PM
InOBU 21 Jun 01 - 03:52 PM
InOBU 21 Jun 01 - 03:45 PM
GUEST 21 Jun 01 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,peter 21 Jun 01 - 11:37 AM
Little Hawk 21 Jun 01 - 11:23 AM
M.Ted 21 Jun 01 - 11:20 AM
Little Hawk 21 Jun 01 - 08:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jun 01 - 07:49 AM
DougR 21 Jun 01 - 02:19 AM
GUEST,peter 20 Jun 01 - 09:36 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jun 01 - 08:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jun 01 - 08:18 PM
DougR 20 Jun 01 - 07:44 PM
M.Ted 20 Jun 01 - 07:25 PM
Angie 20 Jun 01 - 06:48 PM
DougR 20 Jun 01 - 06:38 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jun 01 - 06:34 PM
CarolC 20 Jun 01 - 06:29 PM
DougR 20 Jun 01 - 06:10 PM
DougR 20 Jun 01 - 06:07 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jun 01 - 04:50 PM
M.Ted 20 Jun 01 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,Wavestar 20 Jun 01 - 11:30 AM
Patrish(inactive) 20 Jun 01 - 06:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jun 01 - 06:37 AM
Little Hawk 20 Jun 01 - 12:45 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jun 01 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,peter 19 Jun 01 - 08:38 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jun 01 - 10:11 PM
M.Ted 18 Jun 01 - 10:01 PM
GUEST,peter 18 Jun 01 - 09:16 PM
Steve in Idaho 18 Jun 01 - 04:52 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jun 01 - 03:20 PM
CarolC 18 Jun 01 - 03:07 PM
M.Ted 18 Jun 01 - 02:42 PM
GUEST 18 Jun 01 - 02:23 PM
Steve in Idaho 18 Jun 01 - 01:52 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:54 PM

Hey check out the global warming thread, LH, I am trying to organise the first Geordi sweat lodge, want in? Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:07 PM

That's right, Larry. I know all my dreams won't be realized before I depart this world, but that will not stop me from dreaming.

I regard our present competitive money and war-based system as an aberration, worthy of cave men, not real human beings.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:50 AM

Wel, DougR, LH may be dreaming, but if we don't so something to change the basic exchange ritual of society, which is costing us all more waist than production, well, this tired old world wont support life anymore, so if we don't start working with the dreamers, all this is just going to have been a bad dream.
Cheers, Larry
PS this is drifting towards the global warming thread!


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:57 AM

Dream on LH. :>) DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:20 PM

Dave the gnome - HOORAY FOR YOU! You are dead right...that is institutionalized racism masquerading as "equal opportunity". It is anything but equal, if you don't happen to be in one of the favoured categories (and we all know what they are...).

A society that actually gave a damn about people on an equal basis would ensure that everyone who wanted and needed a job had one...at a decent level of pay...as long as they showed up and did the job to at least an adequate level of performance. (Star Trek Next Generation) Ditto for access to higher education.

No more poverty. No more ghettos. No more homelessness.

That's democratic socialism, folks.

Go ahead and say it's not possible. It is. And it is NOT Communism!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:09 PM

It is actually illegal to ask any of those questions hereabouts, DtG--and imprudent too, since any person who is qualified for a job and is passed over, after having answered those questions, has grounds for a law suit--


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: 8_Pints
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:08 PM

Was it Tom Lehrer who included the line in his song about the American Army as one that "not only discriminated on the grounds of race, creed and colour ... but also ability!"

I think Dave, you must have come under the last category!

*BG*

Bob vG


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:31 AM

I think institutional racism is getting worse. Some time ago I filled in an application for a job. Part of the process was to fill in details about sexual preferences, colour, creed, disabilities etc. They said this was because they operated an equal opportunities policy. I wrote straight across it that if they applied true equality non of those questions would matter.

Needless to say I didn't get the job. I think I was glad!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: 8_Pints
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 08:40 AM

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." verbatim as reported on the Qutations Homepage : http://www.geocities.com/~spanoudi/quote.html

Bob vG


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:48 PM

That Voltaire quote first seems to have cropped up in 1907, Voltaire having died in 1778. I think there's some question as to whether he would actually have agreed with the sentiments.

I can't remember who said that the right to exercise free speech shouldn't include the right to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: 8_Pints
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:26 PM

I believe the differences in cultures give rise to tribalistic attitudes that provide a bond within each group, against its perceived enemies.

False logic, possibly through sloppy thinking, then compounds the argument by basing views on stereotypes.

Diversification of species is what has allowed single cell organisms to evolve into human beings I think.

So when an argument is promoted concerning purity of "blood lines", etc a fear of change and its consequences is being demonstrated.

As Voltaire once said "I may disagree with you, but I shall fight to the death for your right to proclaim your beliefs" (paraphrased perhaps).

The dilemma arises when hate is exploited to incite unjustifiable acts. It is this dividing line that should be used recognise where attitudes are intolerable.

"Evil happens when good men/women do nothing"

However, knowing what I should do and actually doing it requires moral courage and is the greatest form of bravery in my book.

Take heart! I think you have done what I know I should do also, Trish.

Bob vG


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: mooman
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:55 PM

Dear Patrish,

Having met you a couple of time, don't be worried thinking you're rambling, you're not!. Like you, I will always face these bigotry and racist issues head on. Diplomatically if possible, with more direct language if necessary. I admire your values and your determination to stand by them.

Richard


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:27 PM

Thanks, M. Ted, for the book recommendations, and Larry, I thing we all knew what you meant. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:52 PM

A few of the worst misspellings translated...
overthrough the Verinia = overthrew the Verginia
from Northern Pritestants = Northern Protestants...
Whoops - Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:45 PM

Hi Guys, lets see was it Doug who wanted an example of constructed rasim by institutions? Let me give you two:
In the colonies, slaves from Africa were more valuble than indentured servants who - it was profitable to work to death, as they did not get their land after their sentence was finished. The land they got was on the fronteer so they were a buffer between the Vergina planters and the rather miffed Natives. Well, at first there were no laws against intermarrige between Slaves and Servants and it was common. UNTIL, Nathanial Bacon, a freed servant, led a revolt of servants and slaves which nearly overthrough the Verinia colonial government.
In the aftermath, the roll of the servant was raised, and they became the inforcers of slavery, not owning slaves but keeping them in line with extrodinary violence. Part of the creation of a sence of difference to devide the "working class" comoniality of servant and slave was to make the poor white guy think of himself or herself as a "better" so they outlawed intermarrige.
In Ireland, with the criminalization policies of Britain in the north, Irish schools underwent a change in the way they taught Irish history, in that support for Catholic civil rights in the north was destablizing of the politic in the Republic, so they created a sence of difference between Irish Catholic in the occupied counties and the other 26 counties, and by the mid 1980's there was more prejudice against Northern Catholics from Southern Catholics than there was towards northern Catholics from Northern Pritestants! A sence of difference was created by the state through the schools for the most part, which is why the the children of republican's in the republic thought so differently from their parents.
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:34 PM

SDShad
'a white family line that stretches back into deep pre-history is destroyed'
So presumably the BNP rejects the 'out of Africa' theory?


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: GUEST,peter
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:37 AM

thanks McGrath for pointing that out I guess I was hungry... thanks M Ted, Ill check those books out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:23 AM

Also, Marianne Williamson has written some extremely good books about ways of transforming the current society. Try out those...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:20 AM

DougR,

Here are two books that I think you'd enjoy--Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States", and Norman Cohen's "In Purusit of the Millenium"--the Zinn book is easy to find, and it is very well written--it is a must for folkies, since he writes about many of the events and conflicts that we know about mostly through songs--

The Cohen book may be hard to find, since it is about millenialists and religious cults that attempted to overthrown the social order in the middle ages(not a hot topic with most readers)--but, if you are interested in this sort of thing, it is worth the effort in finding it. GUEST,peter, if you are interested in the Hussites, this book is for you! The main thrust of the book is to uncover the ideological roots of the Nazism and Communism--

For those of you who haven't got the time or inclination to read (a sad situation, I must say), I refer you to Rogers and Hammerstein, who said. "You've got to be taught to hate and fear...you've got to be carefully taught"--


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:55 AM

Hi Doug,

Your description of that little town is indeed just the way it used to be. There was prejudice, but as you say it was just a way of life, and no one thought much about it, and most people treated each other quite decently (because they knew each other all their lives.

What has changed since then is...

1. The automobile has made people very mobile, and that has had a very destructive effect on the cohesiveness of traditional communities. People move around a lot more, and they are a lot more isolated from one another. There is much more anonymity these days, and much less feeling of continuity in neighborhood life.

2. The television has had a catastrophic effect in the same general respects, and has increased people's isolation from one another even within the family, while also increasing social homogeneity and mass conformity. On Indian reserves, for instance, the traditional languages and way of life were sustaining themselves much more effectively, until TV came along. Now the kids grow up learning English off the TV and forget about their Native languages. They want the junk foods they see advertised on the TV and forget about their traditional foods. And so on...

3. The consumer marketing system has flooded into every area of community, through TV, radio, and the activities of major corporations...so that everyone gets exposed to the very same stuff and buys the very same stuff and eats at the same 7 or 8 junk food chains (instead of unique traditional family run cafes and diners, which have mostly vanished).

4. In other words...to put it briefly...Big Money organizations (corporations) have used every means possible to increase their sales, and in so doing have pretty destroyed the traditional community life that you describe, which wasn't perfect, but it was healthier than what we have now.

5. This is mainly why you see bizarre crimes being committed by alienated teenagers that were almost unimaginable when you and I were kids...it arises out of the unease and despair that results from being psychologically utterly isolated from your fellow human beings. Those kids oughta shoot the TV instead of their fellow classmates...it's the number one thing that got them in the hole they're in.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:49 AM

...they are putting a strain on the grasslands and inadvertently creating a dessert...

Now that is what I call a life-enhancing typo, GUEST,peter!


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 02:19 AM

LH, I think I know who you mean (the first name) and I don't think it is spelled correctly. However, I'll check it out.

I think we are a product of our birth. I was born in a small Texas town where the Black population and the White population were separated by railroad tracks. There was predjudice and that was readily illustrated by the geographic location in which people lived. But no one, that I ever knew, mistreated the folks that "lived across the tracks." That was just the way it was. There was no corporate conspiracy, because there were no corporations. It was just a way of life. The folks that lived on the less fortunate side of the railroad tracks may not have liked it there. But several of them were friends of mine, and I never heard any of them complain. We went to separate schools. They may not have liked that either, but if they didn't, I never heard about that either. It was a way of life, that if you didn't live it, you would never understand. There was no racial strife, whatsoever, in those days.

That little town is fully intergrated today, and it was done with no problems at all. It probably could have been done when I was a youngster over fifty years ago, but I'm not sure either "side" was ready for it at that time.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: GUEST,peter
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 09:36 PM

I prefer to think that Im not an automaton thinking what Im told. I grant that certainly in history the divide and conquer method has been used by the ruling power too many times (for instances its easier to kill an enemy if you call him a "red" or "hun" or whatever rather than a human being, certainly Hitler singled out the Jews but there is also intolerance borne of ignorance. I dont really think the people mentioned as the subject of this thread developed their racist tendencies as a result of some insidious govt plan I think they learned it themselves probably having grown up in a relatively homogeneous culture that experienced large inmigration of ethnic groups in the past 30-40yrs. Certainly the Japanese would never consider themselves racist and yet 3rd generation Japanese born Koreans have to carry alien cards, are not allowed to take on Japanese names. etc. because they are also a homogeneous culture.

The point is that rather than seeking some outside blame we should be aware of what we assume and do ourselves. Its just like the problems with the environment, its not just the large corporations doing the polluting its also us as individuals. eg. since the fall of communism in Mongolia more and more unemployed became shepherders and because they are trying to make more money by selling cashmere wool and cutting back on costs (ie not moving around pastures as they did traditionally) they are putting a strain on the grasslands and inadvertently creating a dessert. This is not to say it would be great to return to communism as they were the worst polluters in the world.

the problem is more complex than that, this is what I mean by naivete. sure Ive read the history books but who are they written by, How many books are there on the Hussite revolution and yet it is considered by some historians as one of the first revolutions of the people. In the 15th century people fought for truth, equality imagine that it didnt matter to them how high one was born.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 08:22 PM

Doug - I suggest you read some books by Noam Chomsky (hope I spelled his name properly). Also, I suggest you read any book by Neale Donald Walsh, for some refreshingly positive alternatives to the present social attitudes. Any large bookstore has his books. Don't worry about the title! Just read it, and then think about it. - LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 08:18 PM

There is no question that in many circumstances people seeking to establish and hold on to power and privilege encourage and exploit divisions between people.

But there has to be something to encourage and exploit for that to happen. Human beings have a tendency to think in terms of "them" and "us" - how these terms are actually apportioned, and what actually follows from that is dependent on all kinds of things. It can be colour or acent or religion or length of hair or even the kind of music people like, or the football team they support.

The divisions aren't invented in some conspiracy - but they are used. They can be a great way of diverting attention, and dividing people who could be a threat if they were united. While people are attacking the Jews or the Blacks, or the Papists or whatever, maybe they won't be attacking other more relevant targets.

There are certainly fireraisers with sinister motives. But they can only start a fire if there is something to catch fire. However once a fire is started pretty soon it's not under anybody's control.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 07:44 PM

M. Ted: I'm not sure your request is very realistic. People who post opinions, whether based on history or just expressing an opinion, should expect to receive comments from others. There is no assurance that "spending time studying history" would provide the same information you base your opinion on. Unfortunately, there is no definitive "history" book that I, at least, know of. You can buy a history book that presents one P.O.V. on almost any subject, and purchase a history book on the same shelf that refutes the information presented in the first book.

I would be happy to take a look at the history books that you base your opinion on that prejudice is promulgated, and promoted by the "controlling class," though, if you would refer one or more to me.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 07:25 PM

I only wish people wouldn't either take or refute my words, but would spend time studying history, instead. It is often said that one should avoid looking to closely at the process of making sausage and the political process--but that is intended to be taken rhetorically rather than actually--Orwell said something to the effect that, if you wanted to sumarize history, imagine a boot, stepping on the face of humanity--it doesn't have to always be like that, but one is hardpressed to deny that it has been like that--


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Angie
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:48 PM

my brother in law is asian and my caucasian twin sister has to put up with racist abuse from both sides as she is a 'paki lover' on the one hand and a 'goria' (white trash) on the other depending on which side of the camp your on. we are all different and have different cultures/ beliefs but we can always strive to find common ground......there is always, without exception common ground with fellow humans regardless of ethnic origin


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:38 PM

Well, LH, you're a bit more pessimistic abut this than I am, I guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:34 PM

Doug - It's not so far out if most of if just happens kind of automatically, given the value systems that are pushed in this society. The vast majority of rich people are certainly not consciously engaging in any kind of conspiracy...they are just doing what comes naturally, as is everybody else, and they're doing it under a lot of pressure, as is everybody else.

But there is a level of people at the very top who do know what they are doing, and those people are not just rich, they are collosally rich. They have the logistical problem of figuring out how to maintain a system that is presently self-destructing by stages, as it destroys traditional community life, wrecks the environment, and brings all of society closer and closer to a collapse that will make the fall of Rome look puny in comparison.

Like the very few who ran ancient Rome....the Emperor and a few rich cronies, and a few generals, these people are trying to determine just how long they can maintain a status quo which is horribly dysfunctional...because they figure that status quo is the key to them continuing to hoard vast amounts of money and power, and to continue controlling the marketplace.

It's very sick, very unholy, and it is not leading to anything you or I are going to enjoy one bit.

On that VERY highest level, it is a conscious conspiracy...and like the rest of us, they are probably getting scared at this point. I know I am.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:29 PM

*grin*

Yeah, Doug R. I was just thinking Kim C wouldn't appreciate being put in the same political category as a pinko like me ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:10 PM

Oops, Kim C., sorry. It was Carol C. Also M. Ted instead of Ted M. A senior moment, after all, I am in my 70's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:07 PM

I was about to comment on Ted M.'s comments, Kim C's affirmation of his comments, and Little Hawk's Amen, but after reading the last two posts, there doesn't seem to be much point to it. It's really a gigantic conspiracy by the ruling class that promotes prejudice? Wow. That's pretty far out I think.

As to Patrish's problem, if the folks she refers to are in their 70's, they have held their beliefs for a long time, and though you might be able to change their minds, I really doubt it. The fact that they accept your friend from Brazil is, I think, telling. I don't know, but maybe they haven't really been exposed to minorities on a one-on-one basis very much. Unless you feel a real need to champion the cause, it might be better in this instance to avoid the subject unless one of them brings it up. If they do, you can very nicely register your disagreement with them, and the ball is back in their court.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:50 PM

Right on, M. Ted! And the same divide and conquer tactics have been employed many times by the elite few in Communist societies as well, so one is hardly a "red" when one points out the mechanism. The Communists have their privileged ruling classes as well, they just pretend not to in their phony rhetoric....much the same way as the Redemocrapublicant Parties do in the USA...only we get more toys to play with here, which helps keep us pacified, although slowly losing touch with reality, as we much our cheeseburgers and drink our Pepsi. But wait! They've got McDonalds in Beijing and Moscow now. I could just McVomit thinking about it...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:26 PM

Guest Peter,

This is the first time in many years that I have been earnestly accused of being a red, and I thank you for it, most sincerely.

In defense of my view, it comes not from my own deduction, but is, instead, a dreary theme that is repeated over and over again in my readings in history and politics. If you did a bit of reading on either the Serbs and the Croats, or the Hutsu and the Tutsi, you would learn that the the fears and hatreds were carefully taught to the common folk through their social institutions, and were deliberately and systematically exploited by cynical leaders--

If one is inclined to read the writings of histories emperors, kings, popes and other villains, these principles are often layed out, using concrete and verifiable examples--The notorious Machievelli, the Borgias, and the French King Louis the Spider(he was either nine or eleven, I think) come to mind.

The medieval Church systematically layed the foundations for anti-semitism in tracts, texts, and teachings that can be read today. Some one once showed me a translation from a Hindu text from about the 2nd Century with a title that, roughly, was "How to Control People" which explained the principles or the "divide" and conquor" system, which, one cannot dispute, was enduringly utilized in the caste system--

At any rate, if someone is a bit naive about the genesis of all this, I think it isn't me--


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: GUEST,Wavestar
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 11:30 AM

On a much lesser scale, I've encountered this recently in friends of mine. These are young people my age, who have biases that I suspected they didn't even eralise was there. One of them had a problem with West Africans - he said, "When a person who looks like that (really dark black skin) walks into the room, I just get very tense, nervous and uncomfortable." He knew there was a problem with this feeling, but he kept on with it anyway. I gently pointed out to him that this wasn't open-minded, and it wasn't the way he wanted to be- and he knew it. I didn't say, "You're a bad person," I said, "You have some flawed beliefs." I took the same approach with friends who don't THINK they are homophobes, but have incomplete or flawed assuptions on the subject. I didn't want to rag them about it, or come down hard enough to make them defensive, just to point out that their opinions weren't quite (in terms of bias) what they thought they were, and that they were in fact saying things that were racist or homophobic whether or not they realised it. If it continues, I'll come down harder, but I started out just trying to make them think. These are people who honestly thought of themselves are not biased at all - but they are in ways they can't recognise. I tried to point the way for that recognition.

BNP members, on the other hand, are quite clear on whether or not they have biases, I'm quite sure. There are some political disagreements with my friends that I just don't touch- the abortion issue, for instance. But I'm not sure I could handle racism of that caliber being discussed around me. At the very least I would ask them not to use those terms around me, or to say derogatory things, just as I ask people not to use the word 'slut' around me. I hate the word, I don't want to hear it. It's not solving the problem, but eventually they'll start wondering, if it makes you so uncomfortable and unhappy to hear these things, if there might be something wrong with them.

Well, one can hope.

-J


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:59 AM

I cannot stand by and listen to comments like "Pakis" anymore. My good friend who sits opposite me in this office made a comment yesterday and she was quickly taken to task by me. I don't think it will stop her using derogatory expressions full stop, but I don't think she will say things like that in front of me.

I am not a "goody two shoes" without a prejudiced bone in her body - I have terrible problems coming to terms with some of the aspects of other cultures and then find it hard to be tolerant, but knowledge, I think is the answer - find out more about the culture.....to be honest even that doesn't work sometimes

I'm rambling - sorry
Patrish


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:37 AM

I had an acquaintance who was racist - don't see him much now but mainly due to his bigotry in ALL areas rather than just race. Made him the most self opinionated b!"£$%d you could ever meet and I had enough. But I digress...

We were chatting in a pub when I first heard his comments about 'F!"£ing Pakis taking over all our shops'. I was completely horrified. I tried reason. I told him that many years ago in a Bavarian beirhalle (sp?) there was a group of people complaining about 'F!"£ing Jews taking over all our shops' and everyone knew where that led! Right over his head. I am reluctant to say you can never reason with people like that because then I am as guilty as them. What are 'people like that'? Are they all the same? I hope there are not many more like him but I suspect they lurk in dark corners all over the world.

Anyhow - to Patrishes question. Just keep trying reason, Pat. If after a while it hasn't worked dis-associate yourself as I did.

I heard a quote the other day - bit corny but quite good. People are like crayons. Some sharp. Some blunt. Some short. Some long. Some tatty round the edges and all sorts of different colours. The thing is they all have to live in the same box:-)

On the religious side. Our local PP (Fr. John Williams -doesn't play guitar but was a mean soccer player in his day!) caught a couple of local youngsters vandalising the school. "I'm taking you to see your Dad" he said as he was frogmarching them round to their houses. "That's not very Christian" cried on of the lads.

"I'm not a Christian" says Father John, "I'm a Catholic..."

True story he tells from the pulpit. And would a priest lie...:-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 12:45 AM

Hmmmmm.....

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 09:03 PM

There are real differences between different cultures - it's just that the things we have in common are much more important. Both the differences and the similarities should be enjoyed.

I'm not sure which is worse - people who exaggerate the importance of the differences, or people who deny they exist or try to stamp them out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: GUEST,peter
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 08:38 PM

thanks for your comment mted. your earlier comments about working class and ruling class seem a bit naive and idealistic if not with a hint of redspeak. however, the roots of racism stem more from ignorance.

Do you believe that its in the vested interest of some power elite to instill racism between the Hutus and Tutsi say, or perhaps Serbs & Croats, etc. and whites and minorities in europe and north america. or as they say he who likes to generalize, generally lies. (but Im doing that too, of course)

I would say that we all do it to an extent. We constantly make assumptions without thinking based on appearance, and it may be about people who are overweight, or dressed a certain way .

And while different cultures do things differently there really are cultural values common to different nations and people (say in america self reliance and independence and in japan living in harmony and belonging to a group etc.) but not everyone in that group may share them. I think it just happens to be easier to lump people into categories.

Its not that one is racist/bigotted/ etc or isnt, not many would own up to it. and yet we do it.

The most interesting observation on the OJ trial was that most african americans felt he was innocent and most white americans felt he was guilty. and yet none of them really knew.

we should examine our own response and be vigilant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 10:11 PM

That is a very perceptive and interesting post, peter.

Yet if you were a politician or a public figure, and you demonstrated such candor, you would be quoted out of context on the media and attacked immediately from many quarters for making "racist" statements, when all you have done is simply tell the truth! Such is the sickness of our times.

The truth is, in fact, totally unacceptable to many people nowadays if it does not fit within certain carefully delineated guidelines. That's Orwellian if anything is...

I am not surprised that many Japanese are unaware they started the war. Typical.

There was plenty of virulent racism practiced by the Japanese before and during WWII, against the Chinese, the Koreans, and pretty well anyone else they came up against. Likewise, the Chinese and Koreans were thoroughly prejudiced against the Japanese (not surprisingly, under the circumstances, but they would have been even without those circumstances, I suspect). As for the Americans, British, etc., they generally regarded the Japanese as vermin to be exterminated without mercy, and routinely machined-gunned survivors of sunken ships in the water...as did the Japanese to Allied survivors.

No nation can claim a clean slate in this regard.

We must try to do better than we did in the past, and be more aware of the prejudices we are taught to take for granted.

And we must not let other people cow us into silence because we don't fit their particular political agenda.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 10:01 PM

Different people, in different cultures do things differently. It isn't racist to understand that, or to make allowances for it, but it is racist to judge people who do things differently than you as wrong--

Racist isn't actually quite the right word--"prejudiced" or "bigotted" are probably batter words--If you find those words a bit harsh, "small minded" is a good one, and you might want to remember the old observation about "Big heads with small minds"


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: GUEST,peter
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 09:16 PM

theres an assumption above that racism is limited to mostly american - or europeans of white descent. And yet when I lived in Japan, on occassion I was refused service (gaijin dame! no- foreigners) sorry Japanese only. I had a Japanese girlfriend who moved here for a while and before coming to Canada she asked me if there was racism in Canada. While she lived here she worked in a Japanese grocery store here and one day as we were driving she pointed out a man and said "thats one of my customers" Hes quite nice for a Korean". I tried to explain that she was making a racist comment, she had certain views about Chinese people as well. She never realized that even though she was concerned about racism (from the whites) that she was doing the same thing. ANother point. When we happened to watch the movie TORA TORA TORA on the 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor, halfway through the movie she said "you mean Japan started the war?" I guess they dont teach that at school. She was a lovely person and yet she was completely unaware that she was making sweeping assumptions on whole groups of people. I sometimes wonder if I do that and try to catch myself. In my line of business I deal with people of different ethnic backgrounds and have personally experienced that difficulty with people of East Indian or South Asian background. This not to say that its always the case but almost always when I am dealing with someone of that background they haggle and want you to do more than you quoted often after the job is in production and at the end they seek a further discount by trying to find flaws etc. This has happened enough times that I have red flags when such a customer comes in. I often add something to the quote to allow for the haggling etc. Some designers I know actually refuse to deal with them because of similar problems in the past. Of course Ive had many customers of East Indian background who were completely honest and easy to deal with although they were in a minority. And the number of deadbeat or difficult customers is certainly not limited to any race or background. Yet I still feel that its cultural, their way of doing business is different than ours. any thoughts or am I just trying to rationalize my own racism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 04:52 PM

Ah M. Ted and Little Hawk - Your words make my Heart soar!!

If you aren't part of the solution then you are certainly part of the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 03:20 PM

M.Ted - That is correct. Political parties and our modern election process are a similar divide and conquer tactic. Even the presently fashionable forms of anti-racist rhetoric (as well as the pro-racist garbage) that we are constantly exposed to in the entertainment media, and which frequently exacerbates the current racial divisions in society is a similar divide and conquer tactic...because it causes more fear and paranoia, additonal hatred, and extreme polarization of different groups against each other, and it ends up driving those groups farther apart than ever.

The O.J. Simpson trial was a classic case of that, an utter travesty of racist knee-jerk nonsense, posing as anti-racism, and overturning justice and sanity in the process.

The only leaders I've seen who have thrown much useful light on the matter are some spiritual teachers (like Gandhi, for example, or Jesus, or Buddha) who played no favourites, encouraged no "victim" psychology in people, and meet everyone on a completely level basis.

You either see the whole human race as one united family, and refuse to be sucked into playing favorites, or you contribute to the problem.

Moving back to the origins of this thread, I have had some friends who were either moderate or extreme bigots at one time or another. They were not bigoted because they were bad people, but rather because they were working with partial information, or faulty information. They got that information (or didn't get it) from: their parents, their peer group, the media, books, and various life experiences along the way.

It didn't necessarily stop me from being friends with them, as long as it wasn't the only thing they ever talked about. If someone is a 24-hour bigot, I will avoid him, because that is just too abrasive for me. If he is a mostly okay person, who occasionally shows a bigoted side over some issue...well, I can live with that.

If I was already "perfect", of course...or thought I was...then maybe I couldn't...

The world can get pretty narrow when one is perfect.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 03:07 PM

Well said, M. Ted. And I would add one further element... the promotion of the illusion of an upper class who will do as they're told and help the powerful and enfranchised to control our society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 02:42 PM

Racism, prejudice. bigotry, sexism, homophobia,and all the rest of it, has to to be taught, and it is taught, not by the ignorant and brutish, as we are encouraged to believe, but rather by the powerful, the enfranchised, and others in the small minority who really control our society, not because they believe it, but because it is useful to divide the working classes up and turn them against each other--

The working classes are inclined to work together, to cooperate, and to support one another, and if this was carried to it's logical extension, they would soon completely overwhelm the ruling class--the ruling classes long ago recognized this, and systematically divide and play "the people" against one another to assure their own survival and continued control.


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 02:23 PM

I wonder if to some extent this is an older generation version of the bragging about sexual experience that went on their teens? i do think you might find that some of the group could be reasoned with if their expressed opinions were not simply given to be one of the gang


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Subject: RE: BS: Extreme prejudice and friends
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 01:52 PM

My dearest and oldest friend is a bit of a racist. Not knowingly - he'd do anything for anyone - but does use the "N" word on accasion. He used it in my home many years ago and I told him that he had a right to his views but I didn't share them. I pointed out that of the five Black Marines in Vietnam that received the Medal of Honor all of them earned it by rolling/jumping on hand grenades to save Marines of all colors. He has never used the word in my home since then. Occasionally he will use it when I am at his place - but he has a right to say whatever he wants in his home.

I, personally, am ready to go at it with anyone that carries a racist/bigoted mentality. I don't always enlighten, but I always speak my mind. It is that ideology that facilitates young men and women killing each other in wars. If it is just a "insert detested word here" it dehumanizes and allows the hate to begin. Always easier to pull a trigger if hate is driving it. Real people are much harder to kill.

If my friend were driven by racism I probably would not be part of his life. He isn't - just spent his life with words that don't always express what he means. And I credit him with saving my life one dark night.

One must follows his/her belief and takes each as they come. What is that Country & Western tune? You have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything?

The above is only my opinion.


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