BS: How do you feel about Blair?

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: 8_Pints
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 02:00 PM

I think that the old BBC TV series "Yes, Minister" and later "Yes, Prime Minister" captured the essence of politics both with humour and accuracy.

Who was it defined a politician as "one who lies to the press, and on reading the papers next morning believes it"?

Bob vG

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Ringer
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:54 PM

Totally wrong, George? I think you're letting yourself get carried away. If I'm totally wrong, Blair has ethics but has no talent at anything. Can't you even admit that he's a perfect front-man?

And, Jon, you can't believe everything Jimmy Reid says: he suggests, for example, that nobody in his right mind would vote for "Hague's lot", but I did (only because there was no UKIP candidate in my constituency).

None of my posts in this thread have been entirely serious. I'd forgotten just how lacking in a sense of humour Old Labour is.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:38 AM

I think Bald Eagle is totally wrong . .

By the end of the Tory reign you could have put up a blind monkey against her and she'd still have lost . . Indeed, that situation (in the Tory party) hasn't changed much; there's no real sense in which Blair won this election, it's simply that the Tories lost it . . .

It was comforting to see that the Tories campaign on Race and Nationalism (dressed up as "save the pound") brought them very little benefit, but that only emphasises how much of a wasted opportunity Blair represents...

(remember, on one past occasion it took the Falklands war for Thatcher to win the election . . )

The Queen's Speech was even more depressing than expected (and Bragg the optimist was speaking in advance of that speech) . . . More "Change for the sake of it" in Education, more "private/public partnership" (meaning "spend less now but pay more in the future" - totally stupid at time when our economy is buoyant and interest rates are low), vague talk of reforming the Lords but no willingness to over-rule them over the ban on Fox hunting (and, for whoever said it, the "I break the law if my dog chases a rabit" is a myth put about by the countryside mis-alliance . . )

I can't say there was a single aspect of the Queen's Speech which raised the least glimmer of enthusiasm . .

George

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: mooman
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:19 AM

Jim,

I had the same worries as you about a compulsory vote and democracy as, where I live now in Belgium, voting IS compulsory upon pain of a big fine.

After 10 years here, I'm not so sure it isn't a bad idea after all. There are precious few politicians here I care for but at least I can go to the polling station, be registered and vote for none of them at all to show my dissatisfaction! That's more active than plain apathy!

mooman

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:05 AM

How good are people's memories or does anyone have any data on John Smith's popularity. I'm not convinved that Bald Eagle is right. This article seems to back what I thought.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:04 AM

EJ - surely a compulsory vote would be a step away from democracy. The fact that 40% of the potential electorate didn't vote shows that it would be an unworkable law anyway (or a huge civil uprising maybe).

It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always wins.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 10:58 AM

As the T-shirt says 'The only man to enter the house of commons with honest intentions was Guy Fawkes'.

I can't help but remember all that righteous anger from the opposition benches at every new Tory outrage - from the war against the unions and the selling-off of the Nation's 'family silver', to the levying of tax on household fuel (and much, much more besides). Now, after four years in government,it might just be my limited imagination but only one word fills my mind when I see that 'oh so sincere' Mr Blair and the word is HYPOCRITE.

We might well be better off with New Labour than the Conservatives, but that doesn't mean I have to like them.

Brian

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 10:36 AM

Hey, PR (Proportional Representation) works ... IMHO. We have it in the Welsh Assembly elections which gave us an assembly in which all 4 major Welsh parties are represented. I think that's healthy. That and the fact that they've come pretty close to getting rid of yah-boo debating techniques makes it a pretty workable forum. It was Plaid and LibDems that pushed PR through, I think.

Ah yes. LibDems. No one seems to have mentioned Dem.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: English Jon
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 10:30 AM

Any idiot can copy a winning formula, Bald Eagle.

Now we have a complete switch round and the Tory party are claiming to be nearer to the centre than "New Labour".

A compulsory vote with an abstension box and PR would be a good thing, although when I mentioned this at breakfast, my housemate (who's just been for a job interview with the international socialist alliance) looked horrified.

Oh well.

EJ

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Ringer
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 10:08 AM

Devoid of talent, Dave? I don't think so. Of ethics, yes. But it takes some talent to turn the unelectable Labour Party of 15 years ago into the successful vote-winner of a fortnight ago.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 08:52 AM

When I think about Tony Blair I am reminded of an old Irish adage. "I realized fear one morning to the crys and the Fox Hunters sound; and it came to me, that when everyone is chasing the poor bloody fox, tis best to be dressed as a hound" So utterly devoid of talent and ethics, politicians like him force me to destroy my ballot. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: bill\sables
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 08:38 AM

Regarding the so called fox hunting ban, The new law as I have read it states that "Hunting with dogs" will become ilegal. This means that if I take my dog for a walk and he chases a rabbit I am a criminal.
Come on Blair if you can't thimk out new laws without making the whole of the population, who own dogs, just another source of revenue for the courts stick to playing your guitar.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: English Jon
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 08:31 AM

I'm with Jon Freeman on this. John smith at least had some vestiges of Socialism about him, unlike TB who is as mad as a spoon and motivated solely by opinion polls. Frankly, the chances of any party in England doing anything left wing are pretty small. Thatcher basically permanently knackered social policy 15 years ago.

The only good thing about blair is that he isn't portillo.

EJ

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 08:21 AM

I note from the Queen's Speech (for those overseas, this is written by the PM) that the plan to ban tobacco advertising has been dropped, but the Care Blair is still going to find time for another go at banning fox-hunting.... It's good to see they've got their priorities sorted.

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:35 AM

We have a tory government. If John Smith hadn't died, we'd probably still have a labour party.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Ringer
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:28 AM

If John Smith hadn't died, we'd probably still have a Tory government.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:14 AM

sian, I too wonder about John Smith and feel he would have made an excellent prime minister.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:08 AM

I take your point, McGrath, but he certainly isn't in the same league as some others named by Joe. New Labour has better pull some pretty big rabbits out of the hat in the next term. Blair's yes-men policy really backfired in Wales, and New Labour's track record and stuff like higher education funding, and rural issues (and I'm not meaning fox-hunting) are apalling.

Blair himself give me the creeps. Insincere and patronizing. If he gets good press in the States, I can only assume that he has a great Press Agent ...

I'd trust Prescott, or Brown, m'self. And, in nostalgic moments, I wonder what would have happened if John Smith hadn't passed on ...

sian

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:00 AM

I hope I'm proved wrong Lyndi-loo but I can't see Blair keeping his word on anything.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:54 AM

"Clintonesque lefty" - that is some oxymoron.

Some Americans seem to have a pretty foreshortened idea of politics, with extreme left being identified at what most people on the planet would call a bit right of centre.

Just because someone is to your left doesn't make them a lefty. Margaret Thatcher was arguably a little to the left of her good friend General Pinochet, but...

Distance can make the heart grow fonder. I can see what Joe means, given the general run of politicians. I'd give Blair a B+ in a scale where most people score Omega minus. Could do better. Must try harder.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:14 AM

The best comment I've heard so far on our recent election came from Billy Bragg last weekend. Billy's political convictions are well to the left of Tony Blair's, but in a political ramble between songs during his set at Beverley Folk Festival Billy said (as near as I can remember)

"You may think there's only an inch of difference between Labour and the Tories: but remember, a lot of people are going to survive on that inch."

J K Galbraith once said something similar. Near as I can remember it went like this:

"Politics is usually a matter of choosing between the unpalatable and the intolerable."

Well, I find many of the items on Chef Blair's menu rather unappetising - but it's a lot better than the bill of fare offered by his main opponents on June 7th. And maybe, like a good wine, he will improve with age. Chateau Blair 2001 might be a better vintage than the '97 turned out to be.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:10 AM

The difference between Blair and Haigh . .

Haigh wouldn't recognise a principle if it hit him in the face . .

Blair recognises them . . . and ignores them in favour of advancing his own political career . .

The only sensible UK political comment I've heard recently was (sadly) from Tory Michael Anchram (?) when making his pitch for the leadership. He identified politics with public service; the idea that a career in politics should be driven by a desire to serve one's society.

Sadly he then negated this message by seeking to include the "Thatcher vision" in his appeal. For it was she who destroyed the whole idea of public service being a noble enterprise.

In any case, the Tory party won the election. There were suggestions that Blair might make a modest increase in taxation to invest in health (where our spending is lower than most EU nations); the Tories opposed this; labor policy becomes "no tax increases". The Tories make refugees an issue - Labour announces even more draconian anti-refugee measures (hell, it's our damn foreign policies - with the help of our USAian friends) which have created most of the current refugee crisis).

What matters is who controls the Government's policy making, not who sits where in the Palace of Westminster.

Blair claims to be a "Christian Socialst". Both those belief patterns (neither of which I claim adherence to) require hard decisions and a readiness to stand up for what is RIGHT . . I see absolutely no sign of that in Blair.

And Les in Hull - your anecdote is a nice tale, and fits Blair's "political will", but unfortunately it's also an Urban Legend . . .

Do I feel better for that rant? Sadly, no, 'cause it reminds me we're in for another five years of degradation of British society.

G.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Fiolar
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:32 AM

Interesting thoughts about Tony Blair. Thank God that Labour was re-elected. The thought of the return of the Tories is enough to give any right-thinking person nightmares. Miguel Porteeyo has apparently changed his spots. That's a laugh. Some of us still remember his SAS speech. In spite of moans and groans from people, many have had their life style improved. Just one little example. Pensioners were moaning about a 75p increase. BUT they failed to mention the £200 winter fuel allowance everyone over 60 received.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: paddymac
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:22 AM

Blair's attack on the hereditary Lords resonates well with me, but that because i find hereditary caste/class systems morally and intellectually repugnant. Now, if he really wanted to do some good, he'd push hard to establish an independent judiciary and meaningful separation of powers.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: mooman
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:14 AM

I don't particularly care for him. His attempts at "sincerity" are lamentable. He certainly did a very good job for "New Labour" taking over the turf the Tories used to occupy and a friend describes him as the "best conservative prime mininster we've had in a long time". But there seems to be little free speech in the Labour Party these days and Blairites (now an official dictionary word it seems) have been parachuted into the top jobs all over the place.

Lyndi-loo, I'd love to hope you're right and there will be a bit more socialism this time round but I have to admit I'm rather sceptical!

mooman

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:48 AM

I think he deserves another chance at government. He had to tread softly in th 1997 election to win over support from the "me me me" Tories. I think you'll find that his policies will be more socialist this time around. Let's hope so. Anyway what are the alternatives to Tony Blair and New Labour? possible Gordon Brown and New LAbour. Certainly not Michael Portillo, who claims to be less right wing these days. Talk about leopards and Spots!

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:33 AM

Ok, here's an idea...

You give us Blair, and in return, we'll let you have Bush. No? Shucks. Didn't think so...

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: John J
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:16 AM

I saw a small poster at the election before last. It said 'Vote for Blair for a new Tory government'. We did and we have.

John

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:56 AM

I don't think you have to worry about Blair moving in the Tory territory, McGrath - he's just getting you to look at his right hand while he lifts your watch with his left.

I think Blair is a Clintonesque lefty. He sugar coats his agenda in moderate language, attempts to keep the conservatives at bay, and follows the left wind that all of Europe seems to favor.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:48 PM

Tony Blair was once at a party,and said he wanted to be the prime minister, "Which political party?" he was asked his reply was "I dont care so long as the prime minister is ME".At the beginning of the last parliament he said he would outlaw hunting with dogs,he hasnt.I am not too bothered either way on the foxhunting issue,I think there are far more important things to sort out(the health servicee etc).But I think if you tell the electorate you will do something then dont, it wont take them long to start to mistrust you.Also on the europe issue even yhough he mentioneed a referedum, I am sure he will do whatever he wants.People are talking of a "Landslide Victory",well the last election saw the lowest recorded turnout in peacetime, also there were 3 times in the last century when the losing party received more votes than the returned government.A case for PR?

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:44 PM

what we need, Scorch, is a president that has a set of brass balls...period...

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:33 PM

I think I'm with Joe here but until I discovered Mudcat, I admired Ms. Maggie. Changed my mind about her, but not about Golda. Now there was a Leader. Come back Goldie and be Prez of the US........!! Mandela I'm still not sure about.....lots of conflicting info, esp. about Mrs. Mandela.

Sorry if I offend, but I think the US needs a pacifist President with Brass Balls who is not afraid of anybody/thing.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:21 PM

Although U.S. opinion hasn't been invited, I think it might be interesting for people to know what Americans think of Blair, and what others think of U.S. politicians.

From my viewpoint, I've had a very good impression of Blair. I guess I think more highly of him than I do of any British politician since Churchill (Margaret Thatcher is another matter...). I'd rate him up there with other non-U.S. leaders I've admired from afar - Trudeau, Meir, Brandt, Aquino, Mandela, Walesa, Gorbachev, Dubcek, Havel, Mary Robinson. I guess I really don't know all that much about any of these people, but they seem quite admirable.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:50 PM

Guest-I think hes a lying cheating shit.john

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:06 PM

Anyone who actually wants to be Prime Minister (or President) is by definition unfit to hold the job.

I think most people would have been horrified by a Tory victory, but can't feel too enthused by Blair type of politics. He's moved so far into Tory political territory that we've now got two Conservative parties, one of them totally bonkers, the other rather boring. A bit like American politics.

The thing is everyone knew the raving Tories weren't going to win this time, which took a lot of the shine off the Blair victory for a more humane version of Conservatism.

The logical thing would be for them to amalgamate, and for a new opposition to grow up to the left of New Labour, but that's not going to happen. I'd not be that surprised if the Tories repositioned themselves to the left of New Labour themselves, maybe after another defeat. There's lots of room - the Tory governments of the 50's were arguably significantly to the left of Tony Blair.

Michael Ancram, who's the latest Tory candidate for the thankless task of leading the party, appears to be quite a fair hand strumming the old guitar and sings songs like The Streets of London. So maybe next time round we could have him and Tony singing and playing against each other, which would arguably be more fun than some pseudo-debate...

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: bill\sables
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:35 PM

I supose it could be worse we could have a melodeon player or bodrhan player as PM. The poor Americans had it even worse than that, they had a saxophone player

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Dorrie
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:13 PM

i'm sure he'd b a good guitarist but it would take years-after all his football skills are rubbish dorrie xxx

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:08 PM

I was wondering about this subject right after the election. When he won re-election, I toyed with the idea of starting a congratulatory thread for my fellow Mudcatters in England. Then it occurred to me that I hadn't any idea how they felt about it. So I didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Shields Folk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:04 PM

He supports the Toon he can't be all bad!

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: bill\sables
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:58 PM

What's he like as a guitarist, this is a music site after all.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Shields Folk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:50 PM

I defend the right of British politicians to talk bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: bill\sables
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:50 PM

But you got to admit he got that smile from a Lewis Carrol book, It will still be there long after he has been voted out, just like the Cheshire Cat

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:45 PM

Blighty shite...

LOL!!

Rhymes with...

Blather Skite!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Shields Folk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:40 PM

After the amount of North American crap we put up with I think you can put up with our Blighty shite!

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:11 PM

I think that Blair Witch film was a fake. Did you notice that they were supposed to be in the woods for 4 days but the guy's beard never grew? And then there was the scene where the camera was supposed to be lying on the ground but it turned off and then on again...all by itself? Come on! And -- what? Who's Tony Blair? Oh, well, never mind.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: lady penelope
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:07 PM

Actually I think our American / Canadian friends some my feelings about Mr Blair up quite well. I try not to have any feelings about him. If I do it hard enough, it may be feasable that he might cease to exist altogether.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: bill\sables
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:01 PM

I was in the USA at the time of the British election and although I asked who was elected it took me three days to find out, and that was from an Englishman

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:51 PM

Well actually my question is refering to those of you who are English/British - of course everybody else who is caring about "politics that have no effect on them" may feel free to give their opinion as well ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: GUEST,Willis Jackson (Arnold's big brother)
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:49 PM

Blair was a stuck-up, rich, white chick.

Tootie, on the other hand, was a babe.

Willis

Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about Blair?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:41 PM

Who's what to what??

I have a hard enough time caring about Canadian politics without worrying about politics that have no effect on me what so ever! And don't give me any of that butterfly-beats-its-wings-we're-all-connected crap!

;-)