Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society

Subject: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 08:14 PM

This may have been done before but I need some accurate advice on the PRS. We have run as a folk club for 19 years and this week the PRS have called and spoken with the landlord of the pub we operate in. They have insisted on a £10 per week payment for PRS from the folk club.

We are a mainly traditional (60% trad and 40% contemporary) club and book artists every other week. The non artists weeks are singers nights (open mic nights I believe our American cousins call them).

If the PRS are successful in forcing this payment we will have to close. We are non profit making and at the end of most years have an operating surplus of less than £100. To find the other £400 to pay this fee would close us.

This would create a strange dichotomy of a crowd of people promoting live music being closed down by a performing rights organisation. Everybody loses.!!

Any advice on how to deal with this would be welcome.

Spot.

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:08 PM

Any information would be appreciated.......

Spot.

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:21 PM

I would like to give advice if I could, but I know next to nothing about this, I think PRS licence is only needed if you are playing pre-recorded music, but like I said I know very little about this.I will try to find a relavent website, I will let you know if I do.john

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:40 PM

I have just found there website (www.prs.co.uk) unfortunatley it appears that the only live music exempt from a PRS licence is "performance during divine servive in a church or similar building" or "musicals,opera,ballet,etc" there is a good thread you could look at (keep music live) or similar.I hope somebody can give you better advice than me.john

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:46 PM

Some information on this earlier thread, Spot: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?, which you may already be aware of.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 02:49 AM

You shouldn't need a licence for any music or song which is in the public domain (i.e. genuinely traditional, not just assumed to be). And copyright on printed books of traditional songs (as mentioned on another thread) does not necessarily extend to the text of the jong, just the book itself. There are sites which contain lists of songs in the public domain in the USA, (most music published before 1923) but this cannot be relied upon for the UK, as copyright laws are different.

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 03:21 AM

Of course, the Performing Rights Society & Public Entertainment Licence are two totally different things.

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:37 AM

PRS are assignees by virtue of membership of composers or publishers of the performing right in words and music of songs, and music of tunes. Such right includes the right to perform in public. Don't listen to people who try to define you so that you aren't "public". The argument does not win in court.

Most composers and publishers are members. Some composers reserve the right themselves to perform their own songs. Some words and music are not protected by UK copyright. Some composers are not members of the PRS (or overseas affiliated societies) and if they are published there is a very very small but finite chance that their publishers are not either.

Subject to this, the PRS are right to collect the royalties because they are the collecting agents of the authors and rightsowners, but most pubs have PRS licenses any way to cover their jukeboxes so no further license would be needed (this may depend on the exact tariff).

I suggest you talk (rationally) to the PRS direct. I have always found them very helpful. You can get copies of all of their tariffs from them and the person who dealt with the pub may have applied the wrong one. I am not sure how much discretion they have to waive or reduce tariff fees outside of litigation for back payments.

If the pub needs a PRS licence anyway (and most do) why won't the landlord cover the cost or part of it out of the profit he makes on beer sales to you?

Sorry, no magic exemptions.

Usual disclaimer about no solicitor-client relationship.

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Tyke
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 04:48 PM

It should be remembered that the monies that are collected by PRS go to its member's i.e. the people who hold the copy write to the songs that are being performed. Over the last couple of days I have been contributing to another thread (The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga ) which you may wish to have a look at. Briefly it is a discussion that is taking Dave Bullmer to task because it is alleged that his actions are preventing a British Folk Singer's Nick Jones album from being re-released. Sadly Nick was in a road traffic accident whilst travelling home after a gig. This was nearly 20 years ago and as a result of this tragic accident he has been unable to perform since.

Whilst it is regrettable that you feel that because of this threatened extra cost your club may have to close the bottom line is that not to pay the performers is also wrong. The life of a club organiser is not a happy one! is it? So you do have my sympathy. There are too few clubs providing local venues and booking guests. However no matter how much of a hobby it is for the club organiser the club should be run as a business.

Surely there are local artists in your area who would be prepared to help you raise the extra cash that is required a few extra special nights may help you raise the money. The landlord may, if he values the business that you bring into his Pub, be prepared to help. I remember one club who's organiser used to have a pick of the Brick a Brack as a raffle prize. Yes they also had a Brick a Brack stall in the club to raise club funds. Club organisers going off to do a car boot sale with donations brought in by its club members.

Oh! I've just thought of another way! All you have to do is to write a few original songs about the trials and tribulations of Folk Club organisers. Join the Performers Rights Society then sing them at your Folk Club each week and get your money back.:-)

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Grab
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 06:22 PM

Spot, if you're booking ppl to come and play, that is on rather a commercial basis. Presumably you pay the acts you've booked. How many ppl do you usually have coming to your club on guest act nights and singer nights? If there's 20 ppl there, that's only 50p each which isn't a big deal!

It's a big more scary for small clubs. Many of us confirmed amateurs play in clubs of maybe a dozen or so active performers, meeting once a month in a pub and playing the "standards". We're happy bcos we've got somewhere to play together, and the landlord's happy donating electricity for the amps cos we drink his beer, and the only money that changes hands is over the bar. The fact that we technically need a license to sing "Streets of London" or similar stuff together at the end of the evening is worrying. If you're making money off it, then fine, but PRS's website makes no mention of exemption for non-profit-making (or even non-charging) venues.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM

Performing Right Society website

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: pavane
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 06:54 PM

a) Copyright, not copywrite, b) Nic not Nick Jones, Sorry to be picky. Anyway, perhaps we can have a push for traditional songs. But be careful - all sorts of recently composed songs have been described as 'traditional' when they are not. Even 'Happy Birthday to you' is still under copyright, I believe. And loads of Ewan McColl songs have been described as traditional, even those from the 1960's. Bob Dylan claimed copyright in many traditional songs and tunes. (And you get paid more that way). But the PRS have NO CLAIM on any public domain material.

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 07:01 PM

I have copied the following section from this page of the PRS website:

PRS LIVE MUSIC POLICY AND PERFORMANCE RETURNS

The following notes are addressed to performers and/or writers of copyright music. They explain PRS policy for the collection of music details to support the distribution of PRS income from venues licensed for the live performance of copyright music.

How PRS charges royalties for live music

PRS charges licence fees for live performances of copyright music in different ways:

1. Concerts (other than concerts of classical music), where the music is the main business of the promoter of the event and there is a charge for admission, at 3% of receipts from admissions. (This is the rate in PRS Tariff LP, which was set by the Performing Right Tribunal.)
2. Other live music in pubs, clubs, hotels, community centres, and anywhere else apart from the formal concert venues, there are a range of tariffs. These are typically based on a percentage of the promoter's expenditure on music, or a flat rate per night. The licence fee per event is usually far lower than for events charged as concerts. A typical rate for each gig in a small pub would be around £6 (1999/2000 rates).

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 07:28 PM

Thanks for all the advice and contributions......It was indeed useful. I am now in dialog(ue) with the PRS who are being helpful but unremitting.

The Nic Jones thing is where I would want our moneies to go but how and who do the PRS pay?...they have no record of what or when copy(w)right material is sung. So people like Nic probably don't get a monthy cheque. I was going to attach a note from the PRS which is helpful but as I haven't got the senders permission (nor asked for it) to broadcast his note to me I feel I shouldn't on the grounds of privacy.

Thanks again.....It would cut us real bad to close so we are looking for the "third way".....Law does not always seem to be the same as justice..(I said that).

Spot

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 08:02 PM

Glad they're talking with you...

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: pavane
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 03:02 AM

I did once upon a time find a website with a big diagram of the music business, covering authors, performers, agents, publishers etc. etc. showing the links between them and the various societies. I think it was at the MCPS (Mechanical Copyright Protection Society) site, but I may be wrong. I might still have the link somewhere, but I doubt it.

Subject: RE: Help: UK Law on Performing Rights Society
From: Tyke
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 07:09 PM

I believe I'm right in saying that any money that is collected by the P.R.S. that they cannot find the rightful home for is distributed amongst its members. A small but regular check should land through a members door even if no one has performed one of their songs! However perhaps a P.R.S. member will enlighten you privately as to the truth of this statement.