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BS: Special Jug Night
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: The Shambles Date: 30 Jul 01 - 05:48 AM Mike I think you have made your point, it was generally a good one and has been noted publicly. What needs to be done now, is best done in private
As far as I am aware this was all taking place in a PUBLIC house, where there is a permanent open invitation given by the Licensee? There are many things in life that are out of our control, when we don't accept this, we tend to come off more than a little bruised.
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Jon Freeman Date: 30 Jul 01 - 06:36 AM So to take Jeri's line, what were the problems? 1: An incredibly loud and dominant accordian player. 2: Noise levels. There was an awful lot of chatter. 3: Seating. I don't think anyone had a problem finding a seat but the musicians were pretty scattered around the room. The Jug is not the easiest of rooms to organise but I think things would have been easier if those who wanted to join in tunes together were able to occupy one area. What were the effects to me? At its WORST point, Bill asked me to play the Lark In The Morning with him and I couldn't here him play. Bill was playing a tenor banjo with a mastertone type construction - not the sort of instrument you would expect to be struggling for volume - and was sat a few feet to my left. All I could hear was the accordian from the other end of the room and a lot of background noise. Bill actually gave up before the tune was finished and went away muttering something, I assume because he found playing impossible. Jeri said call for hush, but perhaps some consideration should be given without that. There were calls for hush for the singers which were obeyed but the noise just went back up again after. This is just a general question that has bugged me in many sessions over the years: Why should the singers be treated to silence but the musicains be relegated to some form of background noise for people to talk over? Do people not realise that for some of us, it is either impossible or very hard work to make ourselves heard under these conditions and that you can't (or at least I can't) play as well or enjoy the music when every bit of energy goes into playing as loudly as possible? Perhaps people don't realise how loudly they are talking but they have a good clue. The noise levels when the calls for hush for the singer is made are the noise levels the musicians were contending with. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: bill\sables Date: 30 Jul 01 - 06:50 AM Thank you Mike for the email you sent me on Thursday apologizing for your personal attack on me and stating that you would ring me that night. Have you lost my phone number? I am still waiting for your call and it is now Monday. I feel that the apology should have been placed on these threads where the attack occurred. I noticed that your first post to this thread was 8 hours before your second post referring to the room being full of strangers.. It seems to me therefore that you had no intention of staying that night and only turned up to continue your protest. You might not have noticed, but if you go to my very first posting on this thread you would see that I mentioned the Jug. I did not say where the Jug was located. Did all these "Strangers" follow some mystical star in the East to observe the birth of the "Bill Sables Fan Club". Or were they transported down by Scotty from the Star Ship Enterprise. Or would it be wiser to think that they all knew where the Jug was because they were already regular visitors to the Jug Mike, you did not point out that almost all of the regular players at the session are indeed mudcat members or people who use mudcat as a source for songs. In fact Chris who you refer to as the originator of the session is none other than Windy B and his wife is Jellybeam and his son is Ian Stephenson. Others who were there at the beginning were Geoff the Duck, and Mrs Duck as well as Selby and Mouldy. Perhaps you should send a letter to the Doncaster real ale magazine also as this is where Syd advertises the Jug and plugs the Wednesday night music night which I'm sure has far more influence on the visitors to the pub than does a post on mudcat. If you were in the habit of visiting the Jug at 8-30 every week instead of your usual 9-30 you would have noticed that the room is usually full of strangers who have had a meal and have generally left by about 8-45. When I arrived at 8-45 on Wednesday night with Jon Freeman I saw the regulars; Jezabel with her bodrhan, Patrish, with her melodeon, Alan (Patrish's friend) with his guitar, Banjo Flower with his banjo, Skipjack with his fiddle and accordion, Norman with his accordion, Coble and his wife, with harmonica and song book, and the other accordion player from Doncaster who was mentioned earlier with his group of friends, and Chris Coxon who is there every week anyway, hardly a group of strangers who had come to talk and not to play or listen. The only non-regular was in fact Micca who had phoned me to ask for a bed for the night. As far as I can see the only two regulars who this thread attracted were Badger and Tig who were intending not to come but who usually come along every week anyway. With the exception of Norman and the other accordion player all of the regular players are either members or readers of mudcat threads. Unfortunately you have caused so much bad feeling by your personal attack on me that I doubt the Jug session will ever be the same again. You might just as well have put a "Private Room" notice on the door stating that only regular local musicians are welcome and signed it Mike Cahill. You will, no doubt be pleased to see that Kendall, along with a few others, will not now visit the Jug, I only hope that Syd sees it the same way as you do and I hope you are proud of what you have done. Bill |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Jon Freeman Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:15 AM Bill, with respect, I don't think the "following a Star" anology to the Jug is valid. I'm not disputing your counts of regulars/locals or in anyway suggesting that your post brought any non regulars to the Jug but I think it is incredibly naive to suggest that others may not know the location of the Jug. As it has been mentioned in a number of threads and was in fact the venue for a UK Mudcat gathering, I would suggest it location is (at least vaguely) known internationally by Mudcatters as I would suggest the Press Room in NH may be (a bit hard to tell as Jeri is a close friend so I tend to read threads about the venue). What I'm trying to say and hopefully outside this argument (the implications good or bad reach further) is that we should all at least be realistic enough to see that when we talk about venues here and give locations (even if in past threads) we are to some degree putting a venue on an international map. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: mooman Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:16 AM Just arrived back from my holiday and have seen all this! Maybe I shouldn't really post as I'm not a Jug regular (long way from Belgium!) and I've only been to the wonderful Jug once (for this year's Yorkshire Gathering which I enjoyed enormously). From the outside, it appears to me that the Jug has a really excellent and vibrant music session going and has done for many years now. I hope very much to be able to visit again in the not too distant future (we might be able to pass through in mid-November as I am driving up to Edinburgh from Hull for a wedding on the following Friday. Sessions like the Jug's are rare (at least for me now as an expat from Ireland and the UK) and it is a pity to read some of the things that have been posted in this thread. I helped start off a session in London in 1976 which I was subsequently a regular at for 15 years and which, despite my absence for 10 years now, is still going strong. I saw many comings and goings in that time and also most of the the problems ever described here at Mudcat in threads about sessions. Nevertheless, goodwill and acceptance of the odd spat and foible always saw us through these difficulties. I even turned up there a few weeks ago for the first time in 10 years. One of the musicians looked up and said "Hello Richard! Haven't seen you for a few weeks...!" and we resumed the conversation we'd been halfway through 10 years earlier! I even remembered to bring the little store of real tortoiseshell picks I'd promised another of the musicians before I'd left for Belgium. Which was just as well as he was down to the butt-end of his last one! I hope that goodwill and acceptance will also keep the Jug on it's wonderful track. And please don't make it so strict that I won't be able to give Noreen and Patrish, and Eric, Skipjack and Bill (sorry lads...ladies first!) a great big hug each if I do turn up, and shake hands with other new friends before we get stuck into some great music. All the best mooman (TAFKA mcmoo) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,Sam Pirt Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:51 AM Well I have been busy at festivals and stuff for the past three weeks or so and have been unable to get to 'The Jug' or mudcat for the matter, and I come back to find this!! I am suprised. The Jug, as far as I am concerned, is a music session that takes place in a Pub (or Public House) which means it is an open session to which anyone may attend (mudcatter, non mudcatter or member of the public or non musician) It has always been for me and still is your average music session in a pub, it is just many people who now attend it are mudcatters. The session came first. I know that I would always want to promote my local session so new players can discover it and it can continue and develope, so mudcat would seem quite an appropriate place to discuss such a session. The day that the jug becomes a 'select few' of musicians that looks down on any newcomers be they audience or musicians is the day I will stop coming to the Jug. I want to meet new musicians, friends and learn new tunes and songs as that for me is what folkmusic is all about. Cheers, Sam |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,Mike Cahill Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:49 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: bill\sables Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:53 AM Yopu seem to have a lot to say Mike? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Tig Date: 30 Jul 01 - 12:02 PM The only reason I am a Mudcat is because I went to the session at the Jug, met Bill and found out about the site when I mentioned to him I had a new computer!!!
I am first and foremost a bodhran player looking for somewhere to play - be it session in pub or festival. I found the Jug. Since then I have made many new friends from there, many of whom are Mudcats, purely because people told us about it (I'm guilty of encouraging new people to come to the session and to join Mudcat. should I be barred?)
The Jug is now also my adopted 'Local' although I live about 5 miles away. Syd and Val are great people and Syd keeps an excellent pint. Don't make life any harder for them than it is. Keeping a small pub doesn't make a fortune so anyone who gets put off affects Syd's livelyhood.
Nowhere did I see any attempt to 'take over' the session by Mudcats. It's just that a lot of us happen to use the site and admit to being one. It's a shame Mike felt it was happening, and on a quiet night too!
ANY musician, storyteller, singer or even listener (which is what we all do, even if we talk sometimes) is MORE THAN welcome to the session. And to try the Jug other times too.
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: smallpiper Date: 30 Jul 01 - 12:03 PM Here here sam! So why haven't you been at the Hase for a while then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,mike Cahill Date: 30 Jul 01 - 12:04 PM I attempted to call you on the only no. I have 01977 683357, no. unobtainable. I then e-mailed both your netscape and AOL accounts asking you for your new no. The posting to your AOL account was rejected, I assumed you didn't want to speak to me.I have just looked more closely at the AOL post I had sent it to Most of the other points you raise have been answered in other posts |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,mike cahill Date: 30 Jul 01 - 12:09 PM that doesn't make any sense because i included an e-mail address between sent it to, and My mistake the system has screened it out |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Jon Freeman Date: 30 Jul 01 - 12:18 PM I see a lot of comments one way or other but little coment about the night itself except that it was good from many who are defending (with justification) Bill S and defending the principles of sessions being open to all... Am I to take it that situations like the one I described above when I couldn't hear Bill Sables play his Samik from about 6ft away are normal for this session (and even according to tig - on a quiet night)? - or is this an acceptable normal for sessions and I'm being unrealistic despite having been to sessions for years? or where there perhaps problems on this particular night (whether caused by visiting 'catters or not) that may need looking into? From my side, I'm just hoping I was unlucky enough to have picked on a bad night (and one that was probably not caused by us visiting 'catters) as I would like to give the session another try at some point in the future. I am only say this because I can't figure what is going on and feel too much is a loyalty issue and few are being open about the night itself and its problems. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,Sam Pirt Date: 30 Jul 01 - 12:27 PM smallpiper - purly due to a distinct lack of transport, the session is great!! Cheers, Sam |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: bill\sables Date: 30 Jul 01 - 12:29 PM Smallpiper, Sam and I will be visiting the Hase on Tuesday night. I hope you don't get into trouble for inviting us. Bill |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Fortunato Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:48 PM Micca, you handsome devil, you're looking fine. Thanks for the pictures. Regards, Chance |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Linda Kelly Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:28 PM Mike, not wishing to pour more oil on troubled waters. Living in Hull, I would loved to have come to the Jug night but could not because of another session, so please strike me of your list of would be sympathisers who kept away. I am under the impression that you must never have visited another pub other than your own local, for fear of upsettng the regulars. since I doubt that to be the case, and since the regulars would probably have been used to a musical Wednesday at the Jug, it would seem more sense to expand an existing session rather than have an extra night -now that really might drive the locals away. Most folk clubs have websites and are keen to attract more attendees rather than keep them away -whilst I accept that a session may be slightly different I do not think that highlighting a one off evening and accusing Bill in this matter adds any credibility to your views. Also be aware that we do not necessarily eat breath and sleep mudcat. It is an enhancement to our social network for sure, but we do not travel around in packs. Please feel invited this Sunday 2 pm onwards, to the open session at Nellies in Beverley. Come if your a musician, come if you want to listen or come if your a mudcatter-it's all the same to us! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Jon Freeman Date: 30 Jul 01 - 03:40 PM Ah well, I've answered my own question by going back as Mike suggested and reading "Dear Dr Mudcat". It opens:
Subject: Dear Dr. Mudcat The above description and certainly seems to describe a night like I experienced in the jug. Now the odd thing is when I read further through the posts, after a post by McGrath where he suspects the original post may have been referring to Mudcat, I come accross this post setting him straight:
Subject: RE: Dear Dr. Mudcat This does seem to indicate to me that most of what I have read in this thread is based on loyalties than actual happenings in the Jug and little has been done with all the attacking/defending to address what I've now even found Bill Sables agreeing on, there are problems in that session. I reckon if all the personal shit from both sides were taken out of this and people were at least honest rather than taking up attacking/defensive stances (which are probably preventing people looking at the underlying reality), perhaps something could be done for the good of all. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jul 01 - 04:06 PM Mike, not wishing to pour more oil on troubled waters.
I think you've got your metaphors mixed up, Icle Dorritt, since what you then proceeded to do was in fact to pir oil on the troubled waters - which means to try to calm down a troubled situation.
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jul 01 - 06:49 PM Since worries about emails were the reason bill started this thread anyway, maybe the moral, is in such cases the best thing to do is use PMs. Less spam, fewer viruses (touch wood).
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,Banjo-flower Date: 30 Jul 01 - 06:59 PM hi Small piper I'sorry i'm a bit hazy about hessle (boom boom) is it to the east or west of Hull do you have the post code so i could look it up on Multimap BTW would i be welcome or what |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: The Shambles Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:04 PM I have just realised and remembered, with a touch of guilt, reading the Dear Dr Mudcat reference and response that Jon posted, This old thread Can you help with this session?. It was a bit spooky? It is worth a read now but not I think refreshing. It was a long time ago and seems even longer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Peter Kasin Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:00 PM I'll be in Yorkshire October 19-29 for the Captain Cook Maritime Festival. I've been in touch with a very welcoming person at The Jug, "Sue," through a few brief e-mails. She mentioned that there is usually big Mudcat gathering at the Jug at the end of the festival. I look forward to being there and to meeting 'Catters, if a session there is happening that week. What sort of music is played there? I'll be singing chanteys in a few spots at the festival, and presenting a slide show on the SF Maritime National Historical Park, where I work as an interpretive park ranger. I'll also have my fiddle along. I play Scottish and some Irish tunes, but I'm happy to listen in if the music there is different. Since I haven't been there, or to England before, I won't comment on this particular situation, but I will say that I enjoy sessions here at home which are both musical and social gatherings. We have a few sets of tunes, then talk for a bit, then start some more tunes. The house quiets down when there are singers, who the session leader (Shay Black) calls on at several times during the night. Look, whatever the flow of things is at The Jug, I'll try to be aware of it and go with it. I get the feeling that this spat is not a normal state of affairs, and I look forward to a night there. -chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,Mike Cahill Date: 31 Jul 01 - 01:53 AM once again Jon is the voice of reason, and shambles has come up with another thread that this is a common but sad experiance. This is a case of shoot the Messenger. The Jug session is worth the effort of trying to save it. I personalised the situation, which I regret, but I do not regret trying to stop the decline. I hope that as virtually everyone who uses the Jug is now aware of this thread, they might think about what is happening and become part of the cure rather than the problem. I unreservedly apologise to bill for my outburst of frustration, and bad manners. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,Guest - Jim McDonald Date: 31 Jul 01 - 05:24 AM Have just looked through this thread to see that I apparantly have posted a message on this thread on the 26th July could I just say that the message posted was not from this J.McD (who now has the mudcat name of MC Fat) I am the Jim formerly of Doncaster , now resident of Sheffield with the business card of Singer, Guitarist and Fat B*astard. I have been to the Jug on a number of occasions and really enjoyed the music, welcome and food. Spoke to Bill at Warwick this weekend. Sort out this mess folks and whilst you do remember that Folk Music should be inclusive not exclusive. I remember years ago being involved in Wath Folk Club, one singers night I followed a couple up the stairs to the club room the guy was carrying a Martin guitar case the girl a Takemine so I figured they might be reasonable players. I dumped my guitar and went to get a pint as I'm going upstairs these two are coming down guitars in hand faces like thunder.I asked the doorwoman (also a committe member) what was wrong, she informed they had come from Manchester to play but that the list of singers was full with the statement 'well you've got look after your regulars haven't you?' I was furious 'they' (the committee or clique) wanted to put on the same regulars and not give a platform to someone who may have been really good. The point of this story is guests can bring a freshness to any session, bear this is mind. I'd rather have a night in my sessions where the audience don't hear me all night but it is given over to new sounds and songs. Jim (but you can now call me MC Fat) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Linda Kelly Date: 31 Jul 01 - 06:04 AM McGrath of Harlow -context is everything isn't it?. Sorry if you felt my posting was inflammatory. Not intended to be, and the invitation to Mike is genuine as it is to anyone else wo wants to turn up at Nellies on Sunday-it's a cracking session with people coming from far and near. Funnily enough, folk club last night consisted of a few regulars and not many visitors (due to holidays and no other reason I can assure you) and it was flat as a pancake. Come one come all I say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Skipjack K8 Date: 31 Jul 01 - 06:19 AM Gerry, the Hase is on North side of the square in Hessle, over the road from the churches. It ain't blue, but it's at:- http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?grid2mapi?x=503194&y=426489&title=StreetMap+-+Hessle,+East+Riding+of+Yorkshire+HU13+[Other+Town]&back=~&url=~&arrow=N&nolocal=N&bimage=~&zoom=0&largeuk=N&adkey=~,GRIDCONVERT&searchType=3&value=hessle Hope to make it over, if I can afford the visa on the bridge. Skipjack |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,Dita (at work) Date: 31 Jul 01 - 06:38 AM This thread makes very sad reading. Come on guys and galls don't let this misunderstanding destroy what seems to have been a great session, god knows they are hard enough to find, and nurture. Next Jug night buy each other a drink, and if you can stand it, give each other a hug. On a practial note would it be possible, as is done at other sessions, on session night to have a table or three reserved for musicians from 8:30 onwards? That way the players are all grouped together, and can hear each other. In my experiance the landlord has no problem with this, some will even put reserved notices on the table so that visitors know the score, and the punters are happy to stand and let players join in the session. love, john. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Jul 01 - 06:47 AM Sometimes the irony detector kicks in inappropriately. No I wasn't thinking you were being inflammatory, Icklee Dorrit, qyuite thebnreverse. I was trying to say that, since in fact you were being conciliatory, you had got your metaphors mixed up.
It's quite a common misunderstanding with the expression "oil on troubled waters" - I suppose because while the image is in fcat of pouring the oil as a way of calming down the choppy water, the image people have of it is of pollution and of someone putting a match to it.
Mind you when we do set out to be conciliatory, sometimes that is just what seems to happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,Jim McDonald Date: 31 Jul 01 - 09:23 AM Hey, I'm the real Jim and also a Fat B****** They do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Have a good night at the Jug all you UK catters Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Jon Freeman Date: 31 Jul 01 - 09:34 AM I certainly hope they do Mike. When it comes to sessions, I am a musician first and formost as that is where I get my most pleasure (not that I don't enjoy songs and meeting people). Whith the talent that was there that night and knowing of the talent of some of those missing, the Jug clearly has the potential of being excellent musically and a good place for musicians of all ability - sounds like what you said it was - it could still be! I hope that next time I get up that way which probably won't be until next year, I come away thinking the music (ok and the singing) was fantastic. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,chanteyranger Date: 31 Jul 01 - 11:58 AM What kind of music is played at the sessions? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: smallpiper Date: 31 Jul 01 - 11:59 AM Bajo-flower, Bill\sable there will be no trouble at the Hase - there is plenty of room for musicians and others but I would be greatful if the 'others' can stick to the carpeted areas of the pub then the musos can all sit together - the 'others' will still be able to hear the music and see the musicians so won't feel left out. see you there. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Linda Kelly Date: 31 Jul 01 - 12:09 PM McGrath -mmm I know what you mean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Noreen Date: 31 Jul 01 - 01:29 PM For gerry and others, Skipjack's link to a map of Hessle.... wow! *grin* And since this discussion is carrying on, in a more positive direction, let's move over to Special Jug Night part 2 and answer chanteyranger's question? Noreen |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 31 Jul 01 - 02:46 PM Hi Noreen !! Of the Jug I know nothing, but here is a little about the music last night in the Dog and Partridge Only a few were people 'performing' as many are on holiday at the moment. Its in an irish pub and the music is also usually irish A visitor from mexico (i think) gave us a very nice tune on Brian Howards Harp, a very nice rhythm and a nice change At the end of the evening Bob and Suzie, who also run a folk club elsewhere, played some tunes in a more english style on instruments borrowed from the other players The usual suspects played a range of tunes and sang songs all night and I played along where possible The night started off quiet in every sense, few musicians or audience, and got louder as the room filled up. All the problems mentioned about sessions have occured at this one I think and it really is hard to play anything when you can't hear yourself over the conversation In fact the evening began with a couple of people discussing session etiquette after two people fell out the week before over one drumming along while the other tried to play a tune The people chatting last night were not trying to be rude, they were making friends, having a good time and regularly applauding . It was the first visit for one man and he enjoyed the evening so much he is bringing his mum next week The fact is that people like nice background music/singing in the pub but aren't there to sit in silence like they would for a performance I have been guilty of this myself when people I wanted to talk to arrive and there wasn't a break in the music From now on I will try to share and learn a few tunes early in the night before it gets noisy, a kind of musician gathering, and just join in with whatevers being played later I was put in my place for being out of tune too (which was fair enough though I think I was playing the wrong tune/repeat rather than being out of tune),and got some requests to play (though I think the requests were from people who had not heard my playing and who were fairly drunk) I ended the night by waiting for the bus on West Street, I often see a fairly drunken Jim McDonald there.........I think he posted on the other thread ( does he always wear the same jumper??) I still haven't heard him sing perhaps one day he will give us a song at the D&P? Roger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,MC Fat (aka Jim McDonald) Date: 01 Aug 01 - 04:25 AM Roger I resemble that remark and I quite like 'fairly drunken' it conjours up images I mean for instance can you be unfairly drunk ? (the big boys made me do it mister) but for your info Roger I too play at the D&P every other Wed with Smiley Dave Young on fiddle, on Sat aft in Fagans (except Jul & Aug) and at the Palm Tree in Walkley on Thursdays you can come and hear me sing, drunken or otherwise and any of these venues plus I nip in the odd Mon, Fri and Sat nights to Fagans depending on committments, money etc. Introduce yourself you appear to already know my jumper. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special Jug Night From: GUEST,Banjo-Flower Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:01 AM Thanks for the directions Gregg i had a lovely day in Whitby cheers Gerry |