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BS: Space program - real or faked?

MMario 23 Jul 01 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,Karen 23 Jul 01 - 04:14 PM
MMario 23 Jul 01 - 04:17 PM
Clinton Hammond 23 Jul 01 - 04:21 PM
MMario 23 Jul 01 - 04:29 PM
Wesley S 23 Jul 01 - 04:31 PM
Mark Clark 23 Jul 01 - 04:31 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 01 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,Karen 23 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM
Kim C 23 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Elvis Presley 23 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,announcer 23 Jul 01 - 04:41 PM
MMario 23 Jul 01 - 04:42 PM
Burke 23 Jul 01 - 04:44 PM
MMario 23 Jul 01 - 04:49 PM
MMario 23 Jul 01 - 04:54 PM
Kim C 23 Jul 01 - 04:58 PM
BanjoRay 23 Jul 01 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,Karen 23 Jul 01 - 05:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 01 - 05:01 PM
ard mhacha 23 Jul 01 - 05:01 PM
M.Ted 23 Jul 01 - 05:10 PM
Gareth 23 Jul 01 - 05:13 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jul 01 - 05:47 PM
Bill D 23 Jul 01 - 06:41 PM
Sourdough 23 Jul 01 - 06:43 PM
Bill D 23 Jul 01 - 06:44 PM
Bill D 23 Jul 01 - 06:52 PM
catspaw49 23 Jul 01 - 07:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jul 01 - 07:30 PM
InOBU 23 Jul 01 - 08:35 PM
catspaw49 23 Jul 01 - 09:22 PM
Ebbie 23 Jul 01 - 11:10 PM
Bill D 23 Jul 01 - 11:16 PM
Mark Cohen 23 Jul 01 - 11:32 PM
rangeroger 23 Jul 01 - 11:46 PM
Amos 23 Jul 01 - 11:52 PM
catspaw49 23 Jul 01 - 11:59 PM
Rick Fielding 24 Jul 01 - 01:52 AM
SeanM 24 Jul 01 - 03:34 AM
JohnInKansas 24 Jul 01 - 07:17 AM
English Jon 24 Jul 01 - 08:28 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jul 01 - 08:46 AM
pavane 24 Jul 01 - 08:57 AM
GUEST 24 Jul 01 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,djh 24 Jul 01 - 09:12 AM
English Jon 24 Jul 01 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,fretless (at work) 24 Jul 01 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,smoking man 24 Jul 01 - 10:21 AM
Amos 24 Jul 01 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 24 Jul 01 - 10:47 AM
M.Ted 24 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,fretless (at work) 24 Jul 01 - 11:21 AM
Amos 24 Jul 01 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,smoking man getting angry with Amos 24 Jul 01 - 11:35 AM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM
Mark Clark 24 Jul 01 - 12:06 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 01 - 12:41 PM
Gareth 24 Jul 01 - 01:49 PM
M.Ted 24 Jul 01 - 02:14 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Jul 01 - 02:38 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 01 - 05:13 PM
Amos 24 Jul 01 - 05:22 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 01 - 05:35 PM
BanjoRay 24 Jul 01 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,Souter 24 Jul 01 - 08:12 PM
GUEST,Celtic Soul 24 Jul 01 - 08:32 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 01 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,Smoking man 25 Jul 01 - 10:28 AM
Rick Fielding 25 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM
MMario 25 Jul 01 - 12:56 PM
Little Hawk 25 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM
UB Ed 26 Jul 01 - 07:35 AM
Grab 26 Jul 01 - 11:16 AM
DougR 26 Jul 01 - 08:41 PM
JohnInKansas 27 Jul 01 - 03:33 AM
English Jon 27 Jul 01 - 08:37 AM
Jack the Sailor 27 Jul 01 - 10:37 AM
Jack the Sailor 27 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,smoking man 27 Jul 01 - 11:40 AM
rea 27 Jul 01 - 11:45 AM
Jack the Sailor 27 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 12:02 PM
Wolfgang 27 Jul 01 - 12:03 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 12:19 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 12:22 PM
Wolfgang 27 Jul 01 - 01:04 PM
DougR 27 Jul 01 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,JTS 27 Jul 01 - 04:25 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 06:49 PM
DougR 27 Jul 01 - 06:54 PM
Gareth 27 Jul 01 - 07:02 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 07:31 PM
Gareth 27 Jul 01 - 07:42 PM
Wolfgang 31 Jul 01 - 11:18 AM
Bill D 31 Jul 01 - 02:20 PM
JohnInKansas 01 Aug 01 - 02:54 PM
GUEST 01 Aug 01 - 04:25 PM
SharonA 01 Aug 01 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,petr 01 Aug 01 - 06:35 PM
Little Hawk 01 Aug 01 - 08:04 PM
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Little Hawk 02 Aug 01 - 07:45 AM

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Subject: Space program - real or faked?
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:08 PM

okay - yes, it's a stupid BS subject - but I'm curious.

The other night I was in a discussion with a group of people I normally consider to be intelligent sane adults - and found out that ALL of them (about a dozen) truly believe the entire US space program to have been a hoax, and that mankind has yet to put anything manned into space beyond low earth orbit.

How widespread is this belief? Or Am I the sucker that actually believes what I saw occur on TV and heard on the radio and read in the newspapers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:14 PM

Wow! Well, if that's true then my dad and sister-in-law have some explaining to do since they both worked as engineers for the space program...or so they told everyone in our family!


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:17 PM

y'know - I brought up a mutual acquantiance of these people who has also worked for NASA on some of the launches, and who worked mission control for one of the moonshots;and was told she either

a) lied to us

b) was duped herself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:21 PM

The internet is full of idiots with nothing better to do than speculate down totally idle lanes...

Please... this goes right up there with the Incident At Lake County, and the Alien Autopsy that was seen on FOX...

Only a paranoid moron would believe this...


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:29 PM

Clinton - that is what dumbfounded me. As I said - this is a group of people I have known for years - and up until this weekend considered to be sane & intelligent. And I walked away absolutly flabbergasted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:31 PM

My father helped design the inertial guidence systems for the Mercury and Apollo missions. We watched it all with great interest. The folks who believe this are most likly married cousins who read the National Enquirer. Or worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:31 PM

Anyone who believes that tale hasn't noticed how poor our government agencies seem to be at keeping secrets. The only kept secrets that I can think of right now are the final resting place of Jimmy Hoffa and who really killed JFK. My impression is that these secrets have been kept only because no one in government has been trusted with the answers.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:31 PM

The pyramids were built by aliens.
Stonehenge too
And the statues on Easter Island.
All of today's computer Technology is based upon the equipment on the alien ship which crashed in Roswell N.M.
There is an international media conspiracy to keep Ani DiFranco off the airwaves.

I want to believe!

Reality is just too boring for some people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM

MMario, do these friends also think Big Brother can monitor their activities through their television sets?
I don't mean to make this into a "Heavy Subject" but isn't it sad that all the astronauts who have given up their lives in the name of science and research are now to be considered part of a big hoax?


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM

There's a lot of people who think that but I ain't one of them. Remember what Naemanson said in another thread - there's no way that many people can keep a secret!

The space program is very real, and VERY expensive. I wish they would use my tax dollars to develop some new beaming-up technology, but of course the auto and airplane manufacturers would probably sabotage it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,Elvis Presley
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM

I guess that y'all are on to me now. I was the one who faked the whole darn thing. We filmed the moon landing on Col. Parker's ranch outside of Vegas.

The whole thing was catered by Col. Saunders. His KFC is the official fried chicken of NASA.

Excuse me, gotta go pump some gas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,announcer
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:41 PM

Elvis has left the building.

Now back to one of the most idiotic threads in Mudcat memory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:42 PM

NO - they each have their little quirks and things - but this they seriously believe is an enormous government hoax. At least so they all said. It really shook me up. AND they were sober. Nor do I think they are good enough actors to pull my leg for the length of time this conversation took place...

It was a truly bizarre experience -


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Burke
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:44 PM

Renaissance Fair friends? Maybe they're taking their characters a little to seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:49 PM

oh c'mon guest - I prefaced this with a statement that it was a BS subject - but what gets me is that I would run into this many people outside of a "institutional living" center that would believe this. Or over the age of six.

it scares me. I mean this really does. I've maintained for years kids are intelligent enough to tell the difference between fact and fiction on television and in books. And now I find a bunch of adult people I respect are convinced that the space program is a fake? That these people I have known for years are (in at least one spot) more twisted then a ball of yarn played with by a litter of kittens?


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:54 PM

that might explain it burke - but most of these people consider ren-faire a job; and all of them distinguish quite well between "ren" and "real"....the ones who "live" it are a little too wierd ; even for us who like spending weekends in Elizabethean times. I was really freaked out by this whole thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:58 PM

MMario - I have met people who don't know that butter is made from cream and that cream comes from milk...


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:59 PM

There was a program about this on British Television. A lot of people believe that photos were faked etc. There is, however, one thing that can't be accounted for. The 300 gram sample of moondust the Soviet Union got back from an unmanned mission was nearly identical in chemistry and mineralogy to the samples brought back by the luner astronauts. I suppose the CIA and the KGB got together and made it up between them (heh heh). Go back to reality, folks.

Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 05:00 PM

MMario, it's tough when people you feel you know well all of a sudden throw you for a loop. That happened to me with some very close friends of mine during the last presidential election. Not to get bogged down in it again but we found we were polar-opposites in November! We decided for the sake of our friendship we would not discuss American politics. It worked! We're still great friends!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 05:01 PM

Mouse, did you see that TV show on Fox a couple of months ago wtith the guy who had written the book ucovering the Apollo "Hoax". He said "Look at the flag in this picture it is waving. This is impossible because the moon has no atmosphere!"

People seem to believe anything they see on TV.

I remember Walter Kronite on TV telling us why the flag looked like it was waving in the still pictures. They made it that way. He had a litting "waving" flag in his hand in the studio.

I am kind of curious as to how you found yourself alone with a dozen such people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 05:01 PM

Where did you think they got Bush from, he`s a regular moon man, Slan Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 05:10 PM

I believe that they believe it--and I also believe that they seem like fairly normal human beings, but it is a lot easier to fake being normal than it is to fake a moon launch--

Most people, especially most Americans, know a lot about whatever it is that they do for a living and have a fair grasp of the facts, along with a bunch of reliable opinions related to that stuff, but when it comes to everything else, they are all over the place--most have no undertanding at all of the processes that bring them food, take away waste products, provide them with clothing, let alone how their mortgage rate was caculated, or where the money that paid for their home actually came from, or what goes on in any of those 315 odd other countries on the Rand McNally globe in their library--They don't need to know, they don't wanna know--

When called upon to come up with explanations for stuff that they know nothing about, some people just shrug, and others just make answers up--technically speaking, this is called, "confabulation"--though non-technically, it is called being "Full of shit"--


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 05:13 PM

Oh course those rock samples were faked. Everyone in the UK knows the moon is made out of green Cheeze,

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 05:47 PM

People will believe anything...or not believe anything. It doesn't necessarily link to whether they are intelligent or sane...or the contrary. Usually it does link to the fact that they got some information from some source that they considered a reliable or a persuasive one. Once they have emotionally committed to an opinion on the matter, they are then very adept at finding further sources of information which support their opinion...and they are also inclined to become increasingly contemptuous, even pitying, of those who hold a contrary opinion.

And so it goes...

The same is true in the fields of politics and religion.

Mario, you would have to be one of those friends of yours, and live their whole life, and then you would know exactly why they think the space program was faked.

I suspect it has little to do with either their intelligence or their sanity, but with something that triggered them to have an opinion at some point, and then the ego is invested in defending, maintaining and strengthening said opinion...for emotional reasons.

My opinion? The space program was indeed real, but there were some very notable coverups with regard to contacting direct evidence of alien life (vehicles) and ancient alien artifacts (on the moon and elsewhere). In fact, "cousins" or "ancestors" might be closer to the truth than aliens...but that's mere speculation at this point.

I may, of course, be entirely or partially wrong about that. It's my opinion, that's all...based on various stuff I've come across here and there, and found fairly convincing.

And it's not really vital to me that anyone else on Mudcat has to believe in my opinion. I seriously doubt that it would change things much if they did...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 06:41 PM

*sigh*,...I suppose I might as well confess...it WAS all faked. I have known it for years. In fact, much of the EARLY hardware was built near my home in Kansas, by Hiram A. Turnbull of Hoisington, Kans....(The media coverage, of course, was orchestrated by the gummint, in Wash DC)

The interesting thing is, Hiram got his start faking flying saucers, and when he was finally caught, the powers that be decided to put Mr Turnbull's skills to good use, so as to keep the $$$$$ flowing...

Proof?? Why of course I have proof!...Mudcat is an extraordinary place, and I would not dream of making a cliam like that without proof!

Here is a rare photo of Hiram, taken by his wife, Ermintrude, as he was finishing an early project about 1962....Hiram's Flyer, 3469276

This was the prototype one that was launched over Canada a few years ago.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Sourdough
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 06:43 PM

What is missing among people who subscribe to a theory such as faked moon travel has nothing to do with intelligence, it has far more to do with the ability to think critically. There are a lot of intelligent people who have never learned how to balance conflicting claims of reality. This is one of the main functions of education. It can be learned without education, by experience, but no matter how it is learned it is always difficult. It means keeping an open mind so that you can handle ambiguities. It means not succumbing to "common sense" without examination, it means continuing to learn, and it often means foregoing the comfort of certainty when no answer is available.

Your friends? MMario, intelligent? Very possibly. However, with their ability to process information, I would not want them advising me on matters of health, love, business, etc.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 06:44 PM

"...prototype FOR one....."


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 06:52 PM

and you can imagine what this bit of trickery , based on Mr Turnbull's design, did when projected onto clouds over Iowa, using newly developed laser technology!....


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 07:16 PM

Awhile back, there was a Fox network program all about the hoax and they made it sound as though the possibility was true. Several people I know became hoax nuts.....Fortunately, I just know them and they aren't "friends."

A hoax on the proportion of the Apollo program makes the Kennedy Conspiracy theory look like a pea in the Grand Canyon! Good gawdamighty......How many people would have to be involved over the years? And why hasn't any reputable person with Grumman, McDonnell-Douglas, Lockheed, North American, or NASA itself ever "spilled the beans".....except for a rare idiot who's rocket has fizzled.

Most of the hoax myth is debunked on THIS SITE. I have a few others pertaining to gebunking the hoax foax, but this one will do.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 07:30 PM

"Everyone in the UK knows the moon is made out of green Cheese"

Cheese I grant you - but it's not green. Wallace and Gromit got there first and checked it out, and it's yellow The Americans obviously went somewhere else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 08:35 PM

Well, to return this to music... I have to fess up... No one has ever been able to play the Uilleann Pipes. They realy don't exist. They really are nothing more than a hunk of radiator and a bellows. Ever notice the guys behind us, with their backs to you, when we "play" the pipes? They are really playing gazzoos. The more you have in the way of regulators - drones etc... you need more little guys. I expect, now that I have share this with you all to be offed by Liam O'Flynn, the grand Visar Poohbah of the secret order of Uillann Pipers. So, good bye all, if they find me.
Larry
PS Is this thread drift? Should I have started another thread?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 09:22 PM

No Larry, especially if you want us to have a few good thoughts or prayers for your Uillean pipes. I'd say that your post was enough..........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 11:10 PM

Years ago, a boyfriend told me that he has trouble believing the earth is round- his parents had reminded him that in the Bible it mentions the "four corners of the earth". Maybe that's the cornerstone (no pun intended) belief of the Flat Earth Society, which is evidently still alive and thriving.

MMario, the part that boggles my mind is that you found adozen people who all believed the same thing. Were they close friends to each other- and less so to you? I suppose that would help explain it. I agree that the experience would be scary. There's no way you could win that debate- they're too many levels of communication away. It would make a person watch one's back!

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 11:16 PM

I'll bet Mario's friends have met Hiram Turnbull!!...he was never shy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 11:32 PM

Hey, 'Spaw, I saw on the Internet that that so-called DaVinci robot for doing heart surgery is really just a bunch of Lego blocks covered with aluminum foil, and they used trick photography to make it look like it's actually working on patients. So you really should check it out before you....uh...hmmmm...er....never mind.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: rangeroger
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 11:46 PM

BillD, that sure looked like cousin Elmers still before the Revenuers got to it.

rr


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 11:52 PM

Ya know -- it has gotta take some real distrust of your fellow huming to project the notion that so many hundreds and hundreds of participants would subscribe to a huge public deception, with no particular target!!! And given that so many of our accusations are confessions, Mario, maybe you should ask your friends if they feel like they are faking life in some way!!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 11:59 PM

Ya know Mark, it's funny you should mention that........As I was lying therewhile they were making various "connections" into assorted veins and and the like, they wheeled the robot (whom they refer to as "Lenny"....cute...) past me and introduced him. I only had about a 10 second look and I went under not too long after that, but I would have sworn I saw a Lego Trademark on him...................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 01:52 AM

Well spoken Ted.

When Neil Armstrong landed on the moon. I was in the Lobby of the Welcome Hotel in Newfoundland. The other 8 or 9 folks in the room literally could not believe that I was so naieve as to think it was REALLY happening.

When I was in my early twenties, my jaw would drop every time seemingly normal intelligent people said totally dumb things. Over the years I learned that most people have HUGE blind spots. Still like them....BUT I DO try and hunt down informed folks for conversation.

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: SeanM
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:34 AM

Y'know, some friends of mine used to do this sort of thing to enliven the periods between emptying the beer and the next round arriving.

(Warning. Dubious logical fallicies used herein)

It's a GREAt "paranoia" argument. How do you, as a person, know for fact that a space vehicle landed on the moon and brought back toys? How do you, the informed consumer, know that what you bought from the store is actually as labeled? How do you know that someone's pegged YOUR life for amusemen an how do you know whos involved?

Done properly, you get your pints and start the cyclone of conspiracu running. Scoring is easy - if you come up with and defend a new 'secret society' that survives a night of drunken logical battles, you win the ability to not have to pay in on the next round. If you're society get shot down in the Illuminated attempts with no recourse, well, you're buying. And if you really don't have a clue, pour more beer down the ladies and gents nattering, and not only will you be liked, but the nattering gets a LOT funnier.

It IS a simple stream to go from "watched the launch" to "faked the launch". First, TV was really coming into its own. There were problems with adjusting to the fact that reality could just barge into your family room, kick your elderly Auntie out of the rocker for a place to sit, and trott out "up to the minute" updates.

From there... To begin with, there are a lot of people at the start of this who are not totally but increasingly convinced, an number who buy into it whole hog. The rest probably don't care enoug to look and accept what they see.

So... to the 'naysayers' any reports of difficulties can be blown far and beyond the hysteria needed for their campaign, and it gets vented over teh entire enterprise.

Years later, the Conspiracy still needs to have a human to keep feeding from. All it takes is one...

As long as The One True Believer sticks to his/her guns and runs with it at all costs, when the silliness recycles there's a ready made fight to boost awareness on the issue.

Sordid, Ugly, and has NO SPACE in science (beyond the varying psycho sciences)

Me? I know it's all true. NONE of our spaceflights or airflights occur, and there's Neptunian Time Scramblers on our cars and altering our heads. You're in a box. There's actually nothing further from you than 15 yards. It's just the space had to be packed in tightly, so it may take a while to get there.

And in years... when the Invisible Pink Unicorn opens her box of Invisible Pink Lucky Charms, I shall be bated in Invisible Pink Dust, and be happily retrieved.

Then eaten.

I'm working on that last bit.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 07:17 AM

Our local newspaper, on Monday morning, included a "Dear Abby" column in which a very distraught, and apparently very sincere, lady had written to reveal that she had just wasted the last year of her life, and considerable of her resources, in responding to (and propagating) a "chain letter" to "Stop Madalyn Murray O'Hair's" petition to "Ban Religion."

This poor person only wanted to warn people that they should make sure their personal crusade is for a worthy and necessary cause. She said that "The only thing I didn't do ... was check the facts." She had just recently learned that the "petition" in question didn't really exist (and never had).

I thought "Abby's" remark (as a footnote) that "P.S. Madalyn Murray O'Hair has been dead for over half a decade now." was really cold, callous, and outright uncalled for.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: English Jon
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:28 AM

The moon is there all right. It's America that doesn't really exist. Only place in the so called "U.S.A" I've ever been to is called California. One look at a map will show you that California is on the Norfolk Coast, just along by Great Yarmouth. The British Government is spending millions each year producing "American" programmes for television, feature films etc. This is to draw attention away from something else. Don't know exactly what, which shows how effective the technique has been.

Further evidence for all you sceptics - Boston (Lincolnshire), Cambridge (Cambridgeshire), Milwaukee (Essex) etc etc...

Then again, maybe not.

EJ


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:46 AM

"The only thing I didn't do ... was check the facts."

That is a great line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: pavane
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:57 AM

They are probably still sore about being taken in by 'War of the Worlds". There are also loads of people who try to use the results of the scientific process to prove that science is wrong - and don't see the fundamental contradiction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:08 AM

There's a great song about this - spoken word musical track really - by the Scottish band, Looper. I'm sure I can't do it justice off the top of my head, but here goes.

It's called 'Dave The Moon Man.' The narrator met Dave The Moon Man at a party, where he was giving short lectures to anyone who would listen, about all this stuff he'd found on the internet - about the Van Allen belt, how if they had made it through it the radiation would have killed them shortly afterwards, and about how the light sources were all wrong - it suggested studio lighting...

'There was a whole lot of this, and a whole lot more besides. I thought he was on a mission, Dave The Moon Man, to convince everyone there had never been a moon trip. But I was very wrong. That wasn't it at all. He was telling everyone these things in the hopes that someone would prove him wrong... he wanted someone to convince him that they really had been to the moon, in that rocket that looked like it was made of tin-foil and cardboard, which nowadays you probably wouldn't even trust to get you down to the shops... Because it was so much harder otherwise, finding the will to get things done, drunk, lying on the lawn... because someone had done that, and nothing was more impossible than that...'

It's a shame the words don't seem to be on the internet anywhere...


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:12 AM

English Jon, You FOOL! Explain the existence of New Jersey then. Why would anyone make that up ? I would be inclined to agree with you, were it not for the fact that I've been there. If it is in fact an English hoax , it is a cruel one. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: English Jon
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:40 AM

That's a thing that you get when you're old Jersey is worn out. Moth balls can help prevent this. Or store your woolens in a cedar chest.

EJ


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,fretless (at work)
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:46 AM

Of course the landings were faked -- it was all in the movie Capricorn One (1978), except NASA made "them" change the flight destination from the moon to Mars. The movie, by the way, is part of another sub-plot: royalties to star O.J. Simpson are designed to help fund efforts to find the REAL murderers.

And John, you're SO right about Dear Abby being unfair in her comment about Madalyn Murray O'Hair. EVERYONE knows that MMO'H is living the good life in Argentina with Elvis, Princess Di, and the rest of the gang. .............. "Some people can swim all day in the Sea of Knowledge and still not get wet"


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,smoking man
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 10:21 AM

This is a funny thread, but, to those who are flabergasted by the stupidity of these folks belief systems- lighten up. Everyone has some belief that is completely absurd, it just doesn't seem so to them. Some scientists/trekkies have looked for the gene that is responsible for stealing, some Athiests think aliens put us here, some think the particular political party they affiliate themselves with means well and isn't at all self serving, Some folks think Heavy Metal is acctually a form of music, some think they are a chosen people, some think there is a Devil, some think there isn't. Only a select few of us in the Illuminatti know the truth and we laugh at all of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 10:42 AM

Laugh while you can, you pathetic hologram!! We of the Projectorii have your script in our hands!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 10:47 AM

It was all filmed on Pamela Anderson's boobs.
RtS


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM

Fretless, Funny isn't it that people will believe something that is entertainment is true, but that something that is news isn't--


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,fretless (at work)
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:21 AM

M.Ted, Well, the lines do seem to get blurred. Which is, I suppose, how Oliver Stone stays in business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:25 AM

Let's hear it for blurred lines!! I guess it enables people to stay sane if they can re-channel all their idiocy into a good solid issue from the Gunmmint. That way, it's all out there, soundly blamed on others, and introspection is unnecessary, and a good thing too!! God only knows what one might find in there!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,smoking man getting angry with Amos
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:35 AM

Amos, we thwarted your every attempt to get the Buffalo Bills a Superbowl ring and soon we will undo all your attempts to trick people into believing Robin Williams is funny. We do not fear the Projectorii. We will remain in charge. I just need to know who gave you the script and do you think we can sell it to Speilberg? It couldn't be worse than AI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM

Oh my, oh my...so many great posts here... :-)

Roger the skiffler - Just my own opinion, but I think anyone who refers to breasts as "boobs" should be shot, pissed on, and run through a trash compactor. A "boob" is a stupid person. "Boobs" are 2 or more stupid people.

Ebbie - It is kind of amazing that MMario found a dozen people who all agreed on something as contentious as this! Usually you can't get a dozen people to agree on anything less basic than that sex is enjoyable or "it's hot out there today". Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

smoking man - Right on, brother!

SeanM - Science is a religion, based upon observation and testing of various observable physical and energetic phenomena, according to a specifically reductionist viewpoint of reality. Within its own parameters it makes perfectly good sense. Outside of them it is as oblivious to actual experience as any other religion. Its high priests do not take kindly to "heretics" or members of other belief systems, and they guard their turf jealously. As the centuries go by, these high priests frequently succeed in demolishing previously "known and proven scientific facts" and replacing them with new ones...a process that will no doubt continue until people stop wondering if Elvis is still alive or not...and even beyond that, I trust.

Spaw - Now just how the hell would you know what "a pea in the Grand Canyon" looks like? I know for a fact that there are no peas in the Grand Canyon. I read it in Scientific American. :-)

Amos - We are ALL faking life in some way!

All of us - Y' know, folks, there is probably NOTHING more hugely appealing to the human ego than to think that one knows something highly significant that very few other people are aware of. It makes you feel really important yourself, and superior..."Oh, if they only knew! The poor deluded fools..." Ah, yes, it's a hard thing to resist, being a TRUE BELIEVER. I accuse all highly opinionated folks, including myself, of this particular mental maneuver...on occasions. We are all, in fact, functionally insane, according to someone else's definition of reality and common sense. Not to mention downright silly...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:06 PM

English Jon, I can conclusively prove that the U.S.A actually exists. Just drink a beer from a major U.S. distributor and then drink a beer (or as many as you like) from any other country. Surely you will agree, no one in the U.K. would purposely make beer taste as foul as the major U.S. brands. Same goes for Canada, Germany, Czech Republic and so on. In fact, I think it's illegal to make such beer in Germany. I suspect it's just California that doesn't actually exist.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:41 PM

That's an unassailable line of reasoning, Mark.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 01:49 PM

Damn it McGrath - Thats another childhood dream shattered !

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 02:14 PM

Little Hawk,knowing Catspaw, he probably was talking about a "pee" in the Grand Canyon. All I know is that everything you know is wrong!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 02:38 PM

There certainly are p's in the Grand Canyon. Those magnificent yellow shafts sparkling in the sun as they plummet to the depths below!


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:13 PM

M.Ted - Well, at least I'm consistent... :-)

Reminds me of the Captain Kirk method of confusing hostile computers..."I always lie. Everything I say is a lie. In fact, even that was a lie."

Bdee, bdee, bdee....sproing!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:22 PM

LH: The 'fact' that "we are all faking life in some way" does not cause ALL of us to go around accusing others of faking. I submit that for Mario's dozen good humans and true to all come together in a consensus of deceit, projected onto such a large class of "others" from their perspective, that they must indeed have something inside them generating the concept rather more strongly than the average bear.

Smoking: Let's step outside and have a cigarette, pal, and talk about this. The Illuminati want our script, and we the Projectorii have it. We want the Illuminati to confess what they have been doing in public, with hard evidence and documentation, including those pieces of hardware from a highly advanced alien civilization. If you'll arrange to have these delivered to the front steps of the United States Senate ... wait ... better make that the Con...no...wait... White H...hmmmm....the Smitsonian Insititute in Washington D.C., I will be happy to give you all remaining copies of the script you have been living by, including the part that says you receive this offer and just laugh at it at first and then suddenly....

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:35 PM

Yep, Amos, something convinced them. It would be interesting to know what it was.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 07:55 PM

As one who's done the raft trip, I can tell you this - Pees are the only thing you're allowed to leave down the Grand Canyon. Everything else must be transported out.

Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,Souter
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:12 PM

I don't understand. I mean, sure, I can believe the Government and Military would do this, but how can ANYONE believe that they have the Brains to do it? Assuming no one told. I mean, the shear number of people who would have to keep their mouth shut, even when telling would gain them big money, is astounding. But the government probably couldn't pull of a coverup like this even if they cold keep everyone from talking. They're just not that smart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:32 PM

Mmario? Even intelligent people can be paranoid. Some people think that everything is a conspiracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:08 PM

The thing about "the sheer number of people who would have to keep their mouths shut" doesn't necessarily work like that...

example: there have been a great many individuals from various government agencies (covert and otherwise) in the USA and elsewhere willing to testify in public that they have either seen UFO's (alien vehicles, I mean) or know about a coverup of same. These people have appeared in public forums, before the press, over and over again, but....it seems to be ignored or quickly forgotten by most people...or never noticed in the first place.

This is largely because the mainstream media do not focus on it very long, if at all...because they are busy marketing Hollywood movies, Nintendo games, and events like the O.J.Simpson trial instead.

And maybe it's because they've been instructed to do just that...or not...I don't know. I do know that there is not much money to be made most of the time through UFO disclosures (a little, but not much...).

So...a lot of people haven't kept their mouths shut about that one...and it didn't make a dang bit of difference to the non-believers.

Not that I'm suggesting the space program was faked. I'm just suggesting it's fairly easy to maintain either belief or non-belief in a conventional notion in the majority of the public, despite people not keeping their mouths shut. Most people already have their minds made up, and it's just business as usual out there. Eat your burgers, guzzle your pop, and don't worry your head about the weird stuff.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,Smoking man
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 10:28 AM

I believe their motivation for their odd beliefs is anti-science. Science's greatest accomplishment is putting a man on the moon. So being reactionary against science would make one who can't articulate his/her problem with science, want to pull down the curtain and show the wizard as what he is, a charleton.They want to do this because they feel threatened by science. Science types have accused their beliefs of being superstition for as long as there has been Science. Science has many True Believers,Science beaters and They ,like Bible beaters, are annoying.
The Nihilist Church of Galileo and later day Scientists.
Folks who think reason or common sense are synonyms for science
folks who think the Christ story is a myth , but, Galileo was REALLY crucified for his beliefs.
Folks who don't discern the diffrence between knowledge and wisdom
Folks who think the big bang theory even hints at anything that resembles an explanation for anything
Folks who are learning to speak Klingon
Folks who think they are not participating in a belief system when they use "It's a scientific Fact" like an weapon in argument and frequently are practicing blind faith in these "facts".
folks who think science can ever go that last mile and know the universe mechanically, ignoring the true mystical nature of the place


Please note I didn't mention anyone acctually validly practicing SCIENCE. Just the cult of Scientific Dogma, and also let me say that I am not a fan of the oppositions Dogma either. The western world is so dualist in thought patterns that everything gets setup as polar opposites.Science Vs. Religion, dems vs reps, us vs them. Many people just get caught up in the tides of one camp vs the other. They don't recognize the motivation behind their belief so they get into some strange places.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM

Morning Mario.

Jeez, I don't know. I was thinking that at least two or three folks would come in (even anonymously) and SERIOUSLY tell us why they DO believe that the space stuff was faked. Not a one. Now I'm gettin' worried about the company YOU'RE keeping.

Why not print this out and pass it around at your next get-together. Then DUCK!!

Rick (not my real name!!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:56 PM

rick - me too, me too...


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM

"Lifelessness is the great enemy" - Bob Dylan

Nice thoughts there, smoking man.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: UB Ed
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 07:35 AM

MMario, you're "friends" sound like a bunch of idiots. Learn this for them:

Man On the Moon

Mott the Hoople and the game of Life
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Andy Kaufman in the wrestling match
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Monopoly, 21, checkers, and chess
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Mr. Fred Blassie and a breakfast mess
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Let's play Twister, let's play Risk
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
I'll see you in heaven if you make the list
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Now Andy did you hear about this one
Tell me are you locked in the punch
Andy are you goofing on Elvis
Hey baby, are we losing touch

{Refrain}
If you believe
They put a man on the moon, man on the moon
If you believe
There's nothing up their sleeve, then nothing is cool

Moses went walking with a staff of wood
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Newton got beaned by the apple good
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Egypt was troubled by the horrible asp
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Mr. Charles Darwin had the gall to ask
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Now Andy did you hear about this one
Tell me are you locked in the punch
Andy are you goofing on Elvis
Hey baby, are you having fun

{Refrain}

Here's a little agit for the never believer
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Here's a little ghost for the offering
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Here's a truck stop instead of St. Peter's
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Mr. Andy Kaufman's gone wrestling
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Now Andy did you hear about this one
Tell me are you locked in the punch
Andy are you goofing on Elvis
Hey baby, are we losing touch

{Refrain lots}


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Grab
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:16 AM

As Pterry and Neil Gaiman pointed out in "Good Omens", the same ppl who believe that the government has this highly-planned coverup going on also believe that the government are all cretins and are not intelligent enough to run the country...

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:41 PM

MMario: you were in the same room with these folks? A dozen of them? Were you nervous? I suppose they DO believe there was a holocaust though, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 03:33 AM

Be afraid of something REAL!

New Federal (US) regulations require all cell-phone servers to be able to locate any person using a cell-phone withing a very short space.
The purported purpose of this regulation is to allow emergency response when a person reports a problem.
A pilot program has been launched to monitor cell phone traffic on the streets and highways of a major metropolis, in order to continously monitor traffic conditions, in real time, so as to improve the flow of traffic

THEY KNOW WHERE YOU ARE!

But the thing we must REALLY be afraid of, is the coming believe that IT IS YOUR PATRIOTIC DUTY TO USE YOUR CELL-PHONE IN TRAFFIC, because it helps to avoid traffic jams!

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: English Jon
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:37 AM

Good God - I wouldn't drink American Beer even if it's country of origin did exist. Actually, that's bollocks. Of course I'd drink it (in the abscence of meths.)

EJ (Very thirsty)


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:37 AM

Cell Phones.....Anyone who will put a microwave trasmitter next to their skull for extended periods of time deserves what they get. Think of it a evolution in action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM

Cell Phones.....Anyone who will put a microwave trasmitter next to their skull for extended periods of time deserves what they get. Think of it a evolution in action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:09 AM

Yeah. I'd just as soon catch a nasty disease as own a cell phone. As if life wasn't stressful enough already...

I have just finished reading a fascinating book published in 1975 in France by Maurice Chatelain. He was a top level NASA scientist, involved at a high position in the Apollo space program, from its inception right through to the final missions.

The book is full of technical and mathematical details that are too much for me to deal with, since I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist...but here's the kicker:

Chatelain states, with no doubt whatsoever, that every single one of the American space missions was shadowed at either close range or longer range by alien spacecraft. That those craft were clearly observed, tracked, and photographed on numerous occasions by the astronauts (names and occasions are given, as to when and by who). That the astronauts sometimes referred to the presence of alien vessels as "Santa Claus", so as to not alert the public (they made it sound kind of like a cute joke). That Mission Control enforced absolute silence on the astronauts, as far as making any public statements about these incidents, so as to avoid "causing a general panic" (presumably...hell, I would have celebrated!). That Appollo 13 was probably disabled deliberately by one of these alien craft because it was transporting a nuclear device to the moon in order to do seismic testing there...and evidently the aliens decided that that was not permissible. Apollo 13 had to abort and return early to the Earth.

Now take a deep breath and think about it. Then don't bitch and complain to me...just read the book, if you can find it. It was translated from the French language into English in 1977, and published by Doubleday & Co under the title "Our Ancestors Came From Outer Space". It makes Von Daniken look like a space cowboy. Maurice Chatelain is a very serious and persuasive witness.

If your state of mind does not permit even contemplating this kind of thing, then ignore my post and carry on as usual. There is doubtless nothing out there that they haven't told you all about already, and WalMart has got a great sale on today...

Toodle-oo.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,smoking man
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:40 AM

Little Hawk, how come this guy felt safe coming out with such top secret info? I have agreed with you so far in this thread , but , I have a hard time with this one . I heard once that if the sun was the size of a basketball, the earth would be the size of a pea and the nearest solar system outside the Milky way would still be more than 10 real miles away and the likelyhood that there would be a planet currently supporting life in that nearest solar system is slim at best. And even less likely still that it would be intelligent life that has advanced to sophisticated space travel, Our own space travel being primitave at present.
I believe that there is life out there. I just don't believe they visit. I also believe that the quality of UFO evidence has grown and changed in direct porportion with Hollywood type special effects. As far as our Ancestors coming from outer space, I find that idea silly and it always beckons the question "who put the Aliens there?".
Keep on searching , the truth is out there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: rea
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:45 AM

ask you friends how they feel about Challenger. that was a conspiracy. The engineers knew that the low temps from the night before had and could cause malfunctions in the materials which exploded, and they called nasa and told them to hold off. and nasa didnt because they were afraid of loosing funding. and then they tried to make it sound like a very complex, hard to understand problem. and it wasnt. and people died. tell you friends to tell the sons of the teacher who died that the space program doesn't exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM

LH ... Alien space craft..... Apollo 13 .... Santa Claus ... I think the fake moon landing would be easier to cover up. A lot of astronauts have claimed to see unexplained phenomena. But that would seem to be stretching it. I want to belive you, but I have seen a classified document saying that WalMart does not have sales. They have everyday low prices. Talk about science fiction.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:02 PM

smoking man - I don't think he did feel entirely safe...but he did feel fairly safe, because he had returned to France and published the book there, instead of in the USA.

He is fairly reticent about a number of things...showing a reluctance to discuss the alien connection beyond a fairly general synopsis.

He also states that a number of UFO researchers in the US that he knew personally had received death threats and had been visited by people who advised them to shut up or pay the consequences, and that a few had indeed died unexpectedly, and that all their research materials had vanished.

I think he did feel safe, on the whole, in France.

The usual story.

Buffy Sainte-Marie was completely blacklisted off North American radio for over 10 years (due to certain protest songs she recorded), but she was able to pursue her career without interference in Europe and Asia. I guess the "long arm" only reaches so far...

It has a lot to do with just how much public attention someone manages to get. I don't think Chatelain got much. As long as only a few people are interested, why should the government worry? A few people can always be brushed off as cranks, and soon forgotten.

As to whether the aliens could be visiting or not...well, one can theorize about that until one is blue in the face. They either are or they aren't. Having seen their ships myself in the late 60's I know they are. What I don't know is...from where?

One thing for sure...if there is life "out there" (and there is)...it WILL visit eventually. Ask the Tahitians, the Hawaiians, and the other once isolated peoples of this world about that...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:03 PM

Little Hawk,

I do wonder why you have not yet mentioned Bill Kaysing who should to you be as reliable as Chatelain. Bill Kaysing has speculated that the astronauts Gus Grissom, Ed White and Roger Chaffee have been deliberately burned to death because they 'knew too much'.

Maurice Chatelain was not a top level NASA scientist, involved at a high position in the Apollo space program, from its inception right through to the final missions but was an low-level engineer employee of a NASA sub-contractor and he was not longer employed at the time of the Apollo 11 flight. But the UFO-scene lunatic fringe has never cared about facts when facts could come into collision with a good story.

I'm rather tired of these discussions but I think I'd just mention one of many scientific theories for the sightings of astronauts regarding 'companions': Debris travelling with the same speed.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:19 PM

Okay, Wolfgang, you may be right for all I know...I was not there at NASA to witness it, after all...but try reading the book. It's got some very interesting stuff in it. What harm can it do you? You could still decide not to believe it after all, in any case, after reading it.

Do you realize how silly blind faith is, no matter which side of the issue it is on? I'm sure you do.

So read the accounts of those who hold a different viewpoint, and give it some fair consideration.

Remember, the reason I believe in alien visitors is because of something I saw not because of something I heard or read about or was told by my chosen peer group.

Naturally, I am curious to follow up on my own direct experience in any way I can. I don't know that what Chatelain says is true...but perhaps it is. What if? What would be so terrible if reality is a little different in some way than what your lifetime of training has taught you?

If I had not seen UFO's myself, I would probably be talking about something else right now, instead of butting heads with you endlessly.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:22 PM

And I have no idea who Bill Kaysing is...

I am the person whom I consider reliable.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:04 PM

Bill Kaysing

I haven't read Chatelain's book and I doubt I shall. I've read two long critiques and excerpts from chapter 4 (the one with the Maltese cross in the Agean) and that was enough to convince me that it would be lost time to read the whole book. Not for the conclusions that might be contrary to my convictions (I actually love reading books contrary to my convictions for I can learn more from them) but for the man doesn't get the simplest facts right. He's postulating that ancient astronauts have managed to place a geostationary satellite above Delos (a Greek island). A geostationary satellite above Delos cannot exist (if it orbits freely only under gravity influence)for simple physical reasons. And I have a prejudice that someone who gets his basis physics wrong cannot be trusted in other parts as well.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:26 PM

LH? You do business with Wal-Mart??? I'm shocked! You will totally disillusion me if you confess to eating McDonald's hamburgers!

:>) DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 04:25 PM

LH,

What exactly did you see?


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 06:49 PM

JTS - I saw something undeniable. I am not going to talk about it here anymore, because it doesn't achieve anything useful to do so. Believe me. With all these things, you have to actually be there...or you have to get the story from someone whom you already know and trust so well that you simply cannot doubt their word...and you don't know me that well.

Besides, I get so angry at the endless nitpicking of people whose emotional health seems to be based on not believing I could possibly have seen or correctly interpreted what I saw...when they don't know a damn thing about it (not having been there)...I get so angry that it's bad for my health, okay?

I hope you see something yourself, instead. That would be much more convincing than anything I could possibly tell you. And...there are hundreds of books and testimonials out there from people with more impressive credentials than mine.

Wolfgang - Ah, now I see who Bill Kaysing is... I figure he's either out to swindle people (starting at a $25 bid)...or maybe he's a true believer...in which case I think he is entirely, hugely mistaken in his belief. As I've said before on this forum, people are capable of believing or not believing absolutely anything, no matter how incredible it is. And that includes apparently sane and rational and well educated and highy qualified people too...in many cases. I've met some, including my departed uncle, the nuclear physicist, who figured he knew everything.

Doug - I boycott WalMart and I last ate at a McDonalds...um...well, several years ago. It was in a weak moment, but there you are. It's not real food anyway, it's a cheap form of entertainment, sort of like bad pizza. I appreciate your sense of humour, as always... :-)

Wolfgang (again) - you point out that "A geostationary satellite above Delos cannot exist (if it orbits freely only under gravity influence)for simple physical reasons."

Uh-huh... Yes... Fine.... Given our present technology. Now why do you necessarily assume that it MUST have to "orbit freely only under gravity influence". Hmmmm? Why? Because we can't do it any other way than that? We also can't manuever a vehicle at extraordinary speeds and suddenly stop dead or reverse direction instantaneously, without destroying the vehicle, can we? There are some folks out there who can.

We also can't travel to other star systems yet, can we?

Why do you assume that nobody else can?

The American Indians might have made some similarly reckless and optimistic assumptions about the limitations of European weaponry and sailing ships back in the 1500's, if they had given the matter much thought prior to the actual encounter.

Just a possibility.

Here's a proposition: If there have been extra-terrestrials monitoring our activities for some time...even for millenia...and if they are not harmfully inclined toward us, but actually interested in our advancement...then would they not be extremely interested in our first primitive attempts to explore space? And why would they not observe those attempts? I would if I was them. I would be interested very much in any planet that was moving out of its primitive stage of planetary development and standing on the verge of effective space travel....getting ready, in fact, to join a much larger community.

I would also be extremely wary of a human race that is aiming hundreds of nuclear missiles around the world at each other, and testing the damn things, and fighting numerous wars with each other, and also attempting to shoot down friendly visiting craft in their airspace. Damn right I would. I would seriously consider quarantining such a planet, if necessary, until the irresponsible idiots who are running it grow up!

We may presently be among the most dangerous morons in the entire semi-civilized universe...and we are on the verge of effective interplanetary travel. Such people need watching on a regular basis, I would think.

Again, just a possibility.

Re: the book.... There's a lot of heavy mathematics in Chatelain's book, and I feel that you are better equipped to deal with it than I. Much better so.

However, you don't want to waste your time reading it. I understand perfectly. I don't want to waste my time reading romance novels or the Wall Street Journal or Billy Graham's latest book on salvation. We all have different ways of evaluating what we think of as "wasted time", and that's why most of us remain much the way we already are...barring some extraordinary event that alters our personal perspective in a really notable way.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 06:54 PM

You appeared to be encouraging folks to go to Wal-Mart because they were having a terrific sale on today! I just assumed you were not a big fan of Wal-Mart, that's all.

OH! I'll bet you were just kidding!

Doug


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:02 PM

Oh dear,

Reality is in danger of breaking out.

The Tardis awaits, and the Doctor.

Who did you say ?

Profoundly,

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:31 PM

Yeah, Doctor Who was a lot of fun, wasn't it? Personally, I think the Daleks were one of the Pentagon's less successful secret projects...:-)

They definitely were not advanced enough to be of alien origin.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:42 PM

Little Hawk

not to sure
I spent most of my Saturdat Evenings covering behind the Sofa in case the Daleks "Exterminated" me !!

" Oh Klingons on the Starboard Bow,
etc"

I recall one very drunken Barge Race night at Hollow Shore (Faversham Creek) when the assembled Yachties / Old Gaffers, were singing this one in the early hours of the Morning !!!

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 11:18 AM

Little hawk,

I only used the satellite example to argue that the man doesn't really know what he is talking about otherwise he should have mentioned the energy problem involved.

The pyhsics to place a satellite over Delos is straightforward and well known today. There is only one 'little' problem. You need all the time additional energy as for a helicopter hovering. It can be done in principle but it would be silly.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 02:20 PM

well, Little Hawk has made the point...VERY impressively....that some people have seen things that they are unable to easily relate to known phenomena.

And I am perfectly willing to admit that, given our relative newness to scientific knowlege, there certainly 'could' be things out there that we can barely imagine now.

I am also aware that so VERY many reports of alien phenomena are pure mistakes, delusions, hype, fuzzy photos poorly interpreted, and sometimes, total fraud....that I simply will have to do as LH says, and wait till it happens to ME.

If an alien ship decides it's "time", and settles down on the Mall in front of the Air & Space Museum, wilh newsreel cameras running, then..........well......

There is a very important point to make to Little Hawk and others who are now sure.....'not' believing you is not the same as DISbelieveing you.....convincing proof simply requires more than adamant sworn testimony.

I, for one, TRULY hope LH is right, and that 'proof' happens in my lifetime!....in the meantime, I can only shrug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 02:54 PM

An old story that I vaguely recall (I think it may once have been a TV episode)
relates how the aliens landed.
The leaders of earth were iformed that this planet was "kinda in the way,"
They were about to destroy it; but they had seen some signs of progress, and potential value in our earth population.

We weren't really doing too well, but they were willing to give us another chance.

They said they would go away for a couple of years.

When they came back, they would decide whether we had "done better."
If we had done better, they would let us continue to exist. If not, they would destroy this planet that was "kinda in the way."

This naturally scared the p... out of everybody.

World leaders met.
Treaties were signed.
Everybody tried really hard to do better.

World Peace Came!

And then the aliens came back.

They said - "You were doing so well at developing the weapons that we need
FOR OUR INTERGALACTIC WAR.
You've done NOTHING useful in the time while we were gone."

"BYE"


One of the things that seriously detracts from most arguments presenting "unshakable opionions" that we hear from "true believers," in almost any situation, is the very consistent existence of a disguised "message." The "If I really believe THIS, then it will prove that THAT is true" seems almost always to be present.
Hidden, even to the believer, agendas

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 04:25 PM

JOhn in Kansas , I don't think wishfullment is the motivation. I think aliens are the 20th centuries fairies. Some believe aliens are gonna land on the capital steps and despense wisdom, others think they are gonna anally probe them , funny world views , but , believed on merits other than tapping their shoes together " iwish it where , I wish it were"


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 04:54 PM

I haven't had a chance to read all of this thread, so maybe someone has pointed this out already, but...

Why would anyone believe that the US government would WANT to fake the FAILURES of the space program such as the Apollo fire, the Apollo 13 mission and the Challenger explosion? Not to mention the little Mars explorer that couldn't, the problems with the Hubble telescope, etc., etc....


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 06:35 PM

I havent read most of this either but it reminded me of the recent NOVA documentary that said the first man in space was not Yuri Gagarin but rather another Soviet Cosmonaut who was also a aerospace engineer and either is still alive or was until recently. Gagarin flew only a couple of weeks later and apparently the reason he was chosen as the first was that politically he was a better choice and also younger good looking etc. Ill see if I can look that up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:04 PM

SharonA - Good point! I am sure the space program was not faked, especially the failures...but I think there were some aspects kept secret about what DID happen on some occasions. I think they know way more than they are telling us. That doesn't mean they faked what they ARE telling us, necessarily.

JohnInKansas - I don't know about any "hidden" messages...? I know some people think crop circles are a hidden message, but I have no strong opinion on that matter at this point.

One thing that always strikes me...when we write a fictional story about some alien world, we virtually always picture it as a world with a single, united society with a homogenious culture, and all that. Well, look at this world. It's incredibly fragmented and disunited. The old "take me to your leader" thing could have about 180,000 completely different results, depending on where you landed and whom you spoke to...and then which language would you have to know in order to speak to them? The mind boggles. This planet could be pretty damn confusing to an interplanetary visitor with peaceful intentions.

One with warlike intentions, of course, wouldn't care, and would just do what was necessary to overcome resistance and take over.

Fortunately, that hasn't happened.

I think the most likely explanations for why contact has not been more open up to now are:

1. This place isn't ready for it, and the aliens know it.

2. This place isn't important enough for them to bother.

3. We are presently too dangerous, too paranoid, and too disunited to be worth dealing with.

4. Or all of the above.

Plus a hundred other possibilities.

GUEST - How do you know there aren't faeries around right now in nature? (Quite regardless of aliens) I have read a number of interesting books about faeries, and other forms of nature spirits. What's that got to do with space aliens?

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:51 PM

Problem is, LH, that the human mind is infinitely plastic and capable of generating experience, as well as recording experience and recording experiences it itself has generated. While your arguments are perfectly sensible, the tendency of the western intellectual community under 'iffy propositions' like these is to resort to some sort of empiricism. And there is really precious little empirical evidence to make your explanation a preferable one! That said, of course, it may -- in fact probably IS -- the case that so-called empiricism is just a convenience and fundamentally not the convincing final court that it is used for. But it is a fairly robust convention and shouldn't be thrown out lightly.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 06:09 AM

Little Hawk:

Not the message hidden in what "appears."

The "agenda" of the person who believes.

I note that your list of reasons for no contact does not include "There's nobody out there." (Or they haven't gotten this far yet.).
Some might think you "want" to believe we are not alone?
Not accusing you of anything, mind you. Just trying to clarify that it seems, often, that what one wants to see has more real effect on what is "seen" or "believed" than what is actually there.

And yes, there are probably more than enough faeries right here to keep the locals busy.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 07:45 AM

John - Actually, as a boy and an adolescent I did firmly believe that "There's nobody out there.". I also firmly believed that "there is no God" and "there is only physical reality". Why? Because I grew up in a family that had such beliefs, and because I was a very intellectual and scientifically-minded kid, interested in empirical evidence, as mentioned by Amos.

Later in life I changed my mind due to actual experiences. I now believe in God, in spiritual aspects of life that are not materially based (although they project into and affect, indeed create, the material world...), and I believe that there is definitely somebody out there...quite a variety of them, in fact.

It seems that the world just wouldn't leave me alone in the comfort of my empirical beliefs, but insisted on confronting me with alternative experiences which brought my chosen assumptions crashing down.

This, of course, will not suffice to convince anyone else of anything, because it has been my experience, but not necessarily theirs.

The notion that "there's nobody out there" is no longer a tenable or conceivable one for me, which is why I didn't include it in my list. The notion that "they're out there, but they haven't got this far yet" falls in the same category.

However, you are right, unquestionably, that everyone has an agenda, and that it colors what they say with hidden messages. That's why it's so hard for people to communicate without getting ticked off at each other, because they don't like hidden agendas that contradict their own hidden agendas. The moment they sense one, their back goes up. One man's brilliant perception is another man's utter foolishness.

And so it goes...

- LH


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