BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President

Subject: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:15 PM

There it was in my mailbox, a Grade A, US Government Inspected, Tax Rebate check for three hundred smackers, courtesy of George W. and those unbuffalo'd members of Congress, who decided to trust me with my own money. The car rental for my Ireland trip in the latter part of August just got a significant upgrade, ( an automatic transmission, since I don't want to be downshifting my door handle as I approach one of them round-about things). Even my bank teller was smiling as I deposited it, as sure as the last missle test.

And I have no problem spending it on me, as I worked hard three times to get it. Once to earn the money and pay my taxes, once in getting it by the McCain people, and finally by urging my fellow West Virginians to vote Republican for the first time since the Civil War, and being the State that put W over. (Actually the local newspapers chucked it up to the "repugnance of the WV voters over Clinton's repellent behavior.")

Now I know that the Democrats think that it is just horrible that some of their constituent group's favorite charities are not getting my hard-earned tax money, so I thought I would give them a chance to help us benighted Republicans to see the light, by telling us how much they are getting in the Tax Rebate, and to which charities they are donating the WHOLE amount to, so as to ensure that we could not construe any hypocracy from their previous statements, and former positions.

I know that with all the heartfelt ardor with which they espoused their positions against the "foolish tax rebate," they cannot possibly keep any of the money, and still maintain a moral outlook on life.

So what's it for; voter education in Florida?, the Jesse Jackson Unwed Mother Fund?, perhaps the Clinton Pardon Purchase Plan? (I understand they're still taking installment payments).

I offer this thread for those who not only earned enough money to pay taxes, (thereby having an actual monetary stake in the outcome of the past election), and having previouly been indued with only with a breathless opinion, they now the money to back it up.

To those who clearly and honestly intend to give their Tax Rebate money to what they perceive as a worthwhile cause, I truely and honestly salute you. If it's to some person who never earned a dime, you truely do believe in welfare.

But for those special children who may try and finesse the question with a testy answer and no substance, we.. will.. know...

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:26 PM

I'm not a Democrat (yet), so I'm keepin' mine. I figure that it's the beginning of a payback for when W's daddy broke his promise of "Read my lips; no new taxes"... But the Bushes certainly will not buy my trust by giving me back some of my own money.

SharonA

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:34 PM

Does anybody know just how these are being distributed? (I know, the Postal System) I mean what order, etc? Bubba rec'd his but we haven't yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:46 PM

Bill Raney, West Virginia Coal Association, and Big Coal: 3.8 million dollars to the Republican Party, 2000 election. Peabody Energy, $250,000 to Republican National Committee, Chairman Engelhardt personally gave $100,000 to the Bush-Cheny Inaugural Fund. February 2001, Peabody Energy decides for some reason to have an initial share offering, files with SEC. May 22, 5 days after Bush Energy Plan released, Peabody Energy goes public, Chairman Engelhardt's personal reward? $23 million personal rebate. Yep, those Republicans, the party of the little man and the Jeffersonian farmer. Enjoy your vast rebate, Claymore.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:04 PM

Yep, "Mr. Peabody's coal train done hauled it away."

I had a friend in the AV's who worked up an "interlocking directorate chart" for big coal/steel/automotive, etc. The damn thing was about 30 feet long and 6 feet wide and no one on it made less per year than what the average resident of 246 Appalachian counties made in a lifetime.

As to the rebate......The economy continues to go down hill and once again we're hearing about SS problems. The infrastructure stinks.................Exquisite logic. Thank you Shrubby for proving how stupid you can be.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DonMeixner
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:15 PM

As it turns out this is nothing more than a pre payment of what may be your refund in the next year. Based on what your filing status is. If they send me $600.00 because my wife and I pay taxes based on this notion will I have to give it back next april 15th? You see I have had to pay more than $600.00 in income and social security tax over and above what is taken out of my paycheck every year for the last 6-8 years. I haven't had a refund of any sustance in 14 years.

I was alays under the impression that this was a return on taxes already paid. Not a prefund of taxes that it is assumed you may owe. The Republicans told me a lie and the Democrats agreed to it in enough numbers to get this fraud passed.

If thats what this really is thats fine. If its really a $600.00 check with those strings attached would it have passed the muster of the public if the truth had been told from the first? I doubt it. But this is what I've come to expect.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:24 PM

I suspect Don is correct. I have said from the start that I would belive it when the check is in my hot little hand. We too have had to send in more than $600 per year since my Mom died. Estate bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:38 PM

I don't expect to get one. :-]

You can find out more info at the IRS website: www.irs.gov

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM

I'm gonna spend it on a very worthwhile charity. Me! And I'm happy to get it back.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From:
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:49 PM

The order of distribution is based on the last 2 digits of your Social Security number. Since mine is 05 and herself's is 08, we got ours in the first week. I'm not sure how it would work if her's was 99.

Since Dubya wants me to spend it to boost the economy, and the economy was just fine until he started talking about how rotten it was, I think I'll put mine in the bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:52 PM

93 here. Checked Kim's link and our will (???) be mailed Sept. 24.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 07:24 PM

A couple days ago it was revealed that, in addition to the letters sent to the lucky recipients of refunds, the Bush people are sending letters 34 million people and telling them that they are not going to get anything--So for every happy check recipient like Claymore, there will be bunch of other people who are mad because they didn't get anything. Another brilliant move from a man who could teach Dan Quayle a few things about potatoes--

A couple days before that, it came out that there really wasn't quite as much surplus as they expected that there would be, about 90 billion less than there had been when Clinton was running things--

Anyone who thinks for a minute can see that the reason that we have a surplus in the first place is because under Clinton, a lot of people who were un- and underemployed during the Bush/Reagan economies finally had decent jobs and were paying taxes instead of collecting unemployment--

Bush has sent our economy into a tailspin, which is what his father did before him, and a fair number of those taxpayers are going to be turned into unemployement check collectors--and that sad little check that Claymore is so proud of is about one week's worth of unemployement--of course Bush's real friends could care less about our economy--they all have lots and lots of money,and they love hard times, because their money buys even more then--

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,cretinous yahoo
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 07:33 PM

It amazes me how myopic some people can be. $300.00 doesn't amount to a piss hole in the snow to each taxpayer, but the hole it leaves in the treasury amounts to trillions. I hope you people who are "glad to get it" remember that when the SS fund goes belly up. We would have been far better off if every cent of it had been applied to the Reagan debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Maryrrf
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:06 PM

I agree with Cretinous Yahoo. Sure, I'm happy to get my refund - I got the letter saying they were sending me $500. But it won't dramatically change my life. I'd rather see it applied to the debt and I think giving it out was just a cheap political ploy.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:14 PM

Gee it's comforting to know there are so many "Catters" who don't need the money they are going to get back. Just a reminder from Claymore's original post. You can sent it back.

Bob: Beg to disagree. The reason for the surplus was the government was taking more money from us than was needed during the Clinton years. And the great economy you so willingly credit to the Clinton folks is a result of the Reagan/Bush years not the spender's years. :>)

And SS ain't gonna belly up anytime soon. And the surplus is still far too large! The tax cut should have been larger.

As to folks who don't get a refund, Bob, they are those who did NOT PAY any income tax. Why in the world SHOULD they expect to get anything? The funds that people are receiving now are not a GIFT. It is a return of their own money!

Doug

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: campfire
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:17 PM

I agree, I would rather have seen the "surplus" used to pay down the debts, but since they didn't ask me, and my $300.00 (to be received the week of August 27, provided they're still sending them then) won't do much for the National Debt, I'll apply it to my personal debts instead. Unfortunately, it won't do a lot there, either, but...

campfire

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Mad4Mud
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:49 PM

Whoa, artbrooks! Really? The order of distribution is based on the last two digits? I never knew that and as luck would have it my last two digits are 99! I'm in the same boat with Sorcha (or "Ms. 93" as her friends at the I.R.S. know her) so I won't be getting mine until the end of September. That sucks! Why am I always the last one in line??? I want a NEW social security number!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:08 PM

Oh no! You mean the IRS doesn't know I am St. Sorcha, the Orca Wail??? no no no.....(well, they might by now, grin)

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:38 PM

Doug, there is no way to "send it back" it is a one way street. Maryrrf, you are 100% right, it is a cheap political ploy. We had a similar situation here in Maine a few years ago, our republican governor needed a scheme to get re elected, so, he made a big deal out of "refunding surplus tax revenues" to us with his name in large print all over the checks. Then he insisted that we were in the black in spite of a former governor and the secretary of state saying we were in the red. Guess what? the lying bastard won the election, and a week later he announced that "we have a problem" We made a mistake in calculations! Right.. And the gullible are still falling for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:41 PM

Sorry, Campfire, but as long as there is a national debt THERE IS NO SURPLUS.

And don't forget that Dubya and the Cretins spent $34 mil of our tax money to do that completely unnecessary mass mailing (ya got yours, din'cha??)to tell the people who already knew that they were going to get a $300 or $600 check that they were going to get a $300 or a $600 check.

Not sure which principle of responsible fiscal management this is supposed to exemplify. Maybe its just plain stupidity.

My refund is all going to the campaign for "Lobotomies for Republicans- Its the Law" .

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:50 PM

DougR,

There were more wage earners,DougR, and they were earning more money than ever--That's why revenues went up, not taxes. Look it up if you don't believe me-

Since you mentioned Reagan, don't forget that he is the man whose tax cut for the wealthy moved the National Deficit to an all time record of around $425 Billion.my recollection, possibly foggy with passing years, is that during the much derided Carter Administration, the deficit had been around $168 Billion).

As to SS, Doug, you need to get with the program, because when you say it's in good shape, you are undercutting the new message from the Bush Team, which is that SS is in trouble and that we need to start providing private investment accounts--

Sorry to disagree with you Doug, but I think W is the biggest clown ever to hit Washington, and, unfortunately, in his short time in office, he has managed to alienate most of our allies and antagonize our adversaries--he is weak, and, unfortunately, everbody knows it, and is going to take advantage of it--Don't believe me? So-Damn-Insane is taking potshots at our aircraft--nearly hit one yesterday, nearly hit one again today--and if he hits one tomorrow, it will be another humiliation for us--

Meanwhile, he hasn't got the guts to put his foot down, and demand that Israel back off, they know it, and, it is said, are planning a major military offensive against the Palestinians, which will not go over big with the other Arabs, who, incidentally, are taking advantage of the fact that we won't let Iraq sell oil on the open market, and are in the process of limiting oil production to jack up the prices, yet again--For what it's worth, the increase in fuel prices, especially when winter comes again, should eat up those tax rebates quite nicely--

Now, Doug, it is true that Republicans have some valid points about things (though they tend to complain about how hard they work for the money that they earn, and how everbody else is getting a free ride) but couldn't you at least have chosen somebody to pursue those things who wasn't such a wimp?

The rest of the world is laughing at him, and tweaking his nose at every opportunity just because they can--

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:53 PM

Maybe, some-day, some-way, the liberals will gain power again and can just tax us all the way into prosperity. It works great! Just ask Cuba, Vietnam and North Korea. They are so compassionate, they give it all to their governments. What a wonderful lifestyle, doing so much good for mankind.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Gypsy
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 10:47 PM

Well, since my witholding just went up by about 200 percent, will keep it. It is forgotten where that money is coming from...poverty level, like me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:33 PM

Guest: You know what really pisses me off? You probably don't care, but I'm gonna tell you anyway. You obviously hold a point of view that is different from the majority of our Mudcat friends. But you are afraid to identify yourself when you want to express an opinion, because it might piss somebody off!

Folks that don't agree with me don't bother me a bit. Some of my best friends on the Mudcat are liberals, but they damn well identify themselves when they post a message.

Now, get with the program! (to borrow a phrase from Robert)

Robert: Please re-check my message, por favor. I didn't say SS "was in good shape." I said it's not about to go belly up! But, it IS (in say thirty years or so) unless something is done to correct it pretty quick. No doubt about it.

'Tis a puzzlement to me why the liberals take such pride in declaring to one and all that they are "progressive." May I respectfully pose the question: if the Democrats (read liberal) are so damn progressive, why are they digging their heels into the turf so hard to try to keep the U. S. Social Security system exactly the way it is now, when both Democrats and Republicans agree that changes must be made?

Why are they so opposed to Bush's efforts to move our defense system into the 21st century and beyond, instead of remaining in the dated "Cold War" mode?

Any young person today (under say 40) that wouldn't welcome the opportunty to invest some of his/her SS funds in the stock market and does not do it is, in my opinion, simply not viewing things realistically. The market is down now, yes. But follow any ten year period of the market for the past fifty years, and I believe you will find that in the long run the market has done very well. We have had a great run for the past two or three years, and it will happen again. And the economy started heading south last year, so don't point your finger at Bush. He had nothing to do with it. If it's still this bad next year, point away.

The Democrats are progressive? I don't think so.

DougR

r

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:15 AM

The evolution of the English language is a strange thing. "Gay" once meant fun-loving; now it means homosexual...screw is both a metal fastener and a sexual act...I often wonder why people who needed a word to use to refer to those who believe in wasteful spending on useless things selected one whose dictionary definition is "tolerance of others' views as well as openmindedness to ideas that challange tradition" (Webster's New World College Dictionary, 3d Edition). I guess that's like using any of the other labels that help to avoid actually understanding what other people really believe and who they are, such as Kike, Spick, the N-word, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,artbrooks
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:30 AM

Last GUEST is me...sorry

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:06 AM

And the economy started heading south last year, so don't point your finger at Bush. He had nothing to do with it. If it's still this bad next year, point away. Doug, I hope this is not a prophetic statment.

My HUGE refund wouldn't make a spit of difference in my budget so it's going to my legally-blind, mentally-conflicted sister. Call it welfare, if you wish. But it will make a difference in her life.

How anyone (Are you listening, Doug?) can welcome a tax rebate while knowing at the same time how much our national debt is costing us and our children beats me.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:54 AM

Anyone remember that the last great depression in the USA was largely palliated (to the extent that it was) by tax and spend?

Anyone remember Keynes?

It's being reported in the UK that the only slightly misspelt WaLker's IQ is 91 (repeat, 91) and I have so far argued that Forest Gump or no that is impossible. But Kyoto, Chemical weapons treaty, and this. Makes you wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:01 AM

Ya gotta hand it to those Republicans. They bribe us with our own money, then take it back in all kinds of ways.

In my case the bribe is one half the increase in my fuel oil costs for the next year (I prepay my heating oil company). So I will take my $500 "tax rebate" and pay it to the oil company which, of course, includes the Bush family. And I will have to put another $500 with it to make up the difference.

Vote Republican - The party that defines greed, paranoia, backward thinking, and arrogance.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:44 AM

The great depression was caused by buying on the margin in the stock market, a practice condoned by the Coolidge administration. The world bank also had a hand in it. Nothing to do with tax and spend. Would one of you conservatives tell me exactly what does "tax and spend mean?" what the hell is a "tree hugger?" these meaningless phrases are a pain in the ass to thinking people. The democrats are not progressive? Are you rich Doug? No? middle class? thank the democrats. They created the middle class. My brother, a heavy equipment operator, has a cap that says Labor unions, the folks who gave us the weekends, the 40 hour week, and overtime. To call investing some SS income in the stock market as progress,is like saying "Do something, even if it's wrong" Outside of party loyalty, I dont see how anyone with a teaspoon full of brains can stand behind that smirking doofus!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: campfire
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:44 AM

Greg F: I KNOW there is no real surplus; that's why my "surplus" was in quotation marks.

campfire

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: John P
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:47 AM

It seems odd that the Republican party puts itself forth as the party of fiscal responsibility. Every financial advisor you will find anywhere says, "Get out of debt first. There is no point in trying to save money if you are in debt." Cutting taxes and sending out refunds is completely irresponsible while the country is in debt.

Of course, the interest on the national debt is being paid to the same wealthy people who chose Bush to run for president. Paying down the debt is not in the best interests of the very wealthy.

Here are a couple of other reasons for the tax cuts: A cash-poor government cannot afford to hire the staff needed to enforce the regulatory laws that are on the books. This means that big businesses can do pretty much what they want to without too much fear of getting caught, or of being punished if they are caught. A cash-poor government also cannot afford to fund social services, which give poor people something to fall back on if they lose their jobs. Workers who will starve if they quit working for an abusive employer (or are fired) are a pretty good thing if you are a big company that cares more about profits than about people. They tend to complain less, and put up with a lot more abuse.

The idea that tax cuts are for the people is pretty silly. If you want to know who the politicians -- Democrats as well as Republicans -- are trying to please, take a look at where their money comes from.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:11 AM

right on john

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:56 AM

At the IRS website they are calling them "advance payments." Does anyone know what this means exactly? It doesn't sound like a "rebate" to me. Since I have always paid tax, and never got any sort of a refund, what is this in advance against? They are letting me borrow some of my money? I don't really understand.

But as I said before, while Mister and I are eligible for this "advance payment," I'll believe it when I see it. We are always getting screwed by the IRS even when our wittholdings are about as high as they can be. Neither one of us claims any exemptions and we still have to pay more at the end of the year.

Sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LR Mole
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:15 AM

"Follow the money. It goes all the way to the top".--Deep Throat.
RIP, Mrs. Graham. You done good.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:44 AM

...those who believe in wasteful spending on useless things...
Such as:
Star-Wars missile fantasies?
Tax breaks for the filthy rich ?
Holding HMO's harmless for their criminal mistakes?
Billions in corporate welfare?
Protectionist legislation for the poor financially strapped pharmeceutical companies?
Etc.

My first edition Webster's Collegiate doesn't define "Republican" as yours seems to- maybe I need the revised edition.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,MarkS (at work)
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:10 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:14 AM

I recieved my check and I dutifully raised my right hand and said my new version of the Pledge of Allegiance-

" I pledge allegiance to the flag , of the nation falling apart under W, who would have thought he could do so much damage so quick. The rest of the world already hates us. $300.00 don't pay the rent for my cramped studio apartment. I 'd rather have a Rhodes Scholar who couldn't keep it in his pants than a village idiot who doesn't care about fiscal responsibilty. I wonder how much Gates or Trump can expect , it must be nice not to have to worry about Socail Security. Amen , whatever."

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:34 AM

Being a rarity in the Folkmusic biz, I pay my share of taxes on my music related income. I also pay my share of taxes on other non taxed income. I guess the IRS has me so petrified of an audit that I try to be as squeeky as I can. The additional income along with my forty puts me in a the same boat as Kim.

If I read this correctly then next year when I pay $600.00 in taxes to Uncle then I will also have to pay back the money I may yet receive from the Fed. And advance payment on a presumed deficit is a greated deficit.

I am politically a fairly conservative guy. But this isn't economy, its' clearly politics at my (and everyone else's) expense.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:35 AM

Doug, I shall hold you to your words. If the economy is still in the tank this time next year, you're toast.

Just heard on the radio that the annualized growth rate for the 2nd quarter (April-June) was .71%. Nothing was said about information technology; it was all the usual industrial sectors performing shoddily.

Doug, just because Bush Jr. wasn't in office last year doesn't mean he had no role to play in the slowdown. Everybody knows that the stock market feeds on rumours and hearsay, and I do believe (and I'm not the only one) that his saying over and over and over and over that the economy was in trouble became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Doug, our military wasn't in cold-war mode. We were shifting under Clinton to a quick-strike, small-scale fighting force mode. It's Bush who wants to bring BACK the cold war by turning Russia into our enemy again, by violating treaties. Five years ago we had nothing to fear from Russia (save one-off renegades and accidents). Now they are making alliances with China to protect themselves from US. Whose fault is that? Bush's. Spot-on.

So tell me straight, Doug: is this a rebate of last year's taxes, or a borrowing against next year's? If the latter I need to put it in the bank to protect myself against a huge payment next April. If the former I can spend it to help boost the economy.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:39 AM

High taxes don't make poor people rich, and they don't make rich people any poorer. All they serve to do is redistribute income and buy votes. The fact is, in the U.S., 96% of taxes are paid by the top 50% of wage earners; The bottom 50% only pay 4%. Well, the government now has more money than it has things to spend it on. Guess what? All the excess money? It belongs to the people who earned it. Would you suggest that someone other than the people who paid the excess taxes in the first place get the refund? As for those who would say that the surpluses are predicted to be less that what we first thought, and that the tax rebate will eat the surplus up and then some: Tell the politicians to vote to raise the taxes again they need the extra money! Oh, but that would be political suicide, right? Well then, they need to learn to budget what we already give them. In America, the government derives it's rights from the people, not vice-versa. The taxes we give to government should be seen as it's "allowance", and should be budgeted accordingly. As for the "widening gap" between rich and poor, the calculations used to divide Americans into the 5 economic categories (Poor, Lower-Middle Class, Middle Class, Upper-Middle Class, Upper Class) are fundamentally flawed, in the sense that they doesn't keep track of those who move up from one class to the next. If someone was "poor" one year, then gets a better job and becomes, say, "middle class", then he isn't counted as a "poor" person who moved up and narrowed his personal gap between the rich and poor; Instead, he's now on the other side of the widening gap. One other thing to consider: The "poor" people in the studies I've seen are considered as such based on annual income, not accumulated wealth. There are thousands and thousands of people with accumulated wealth who no longer draw a paycheck, because they don't have to.

As for the truly "poor" people, I indeed have a certain amount of sympathy for them. This sympathy however, stops just short of the lottery ticket counter, just before the beer aisle, right around the corner from the cigarette counter, five minutes before the unprotected sex that leads to the kid they can't afford to raise, and about two days before they dropped out of school. This isn't the case for every poor person, but living in North Alabama, I see the gap every day: A bizarre juxtaposition between engineers who worked and studied their collective butts off (NASA & the computer industry are big in Huntsville) and trailer park folk who made bad decisions.

***For anyone who's interested, this year's "Personal Income Freedom Day" came on July 6. This is the day on which the average American begins working for money he gets to keep, rather than for money that goes to some form of government (Federal tax, State tax, Local taxes, Social Security taxes, Sales taxes, Property Taxes, etc, etc, etc).

This day comes later each year. When it makes it to September, we're knocking on socialism's door. (And yes, I do say that like it's a bad thing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:02 PM

Okay, this is straight from the IRS's mouth (see this page -- the following is a selection of quotes from that page):

The Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 approved by Congress and signed by President Bush directs the Treasury to send checks to most income taxpayers this year, giving them an advance payment of a 2001 tax credit. This is a reduction of tax and is not taxable income on the federal tax return.

Translation: this is not a "refund of taxes paid" as DougR et al. would have you believe, but rather an advance payment of the amount they expect you will save on your 2001 taxes due to the tax cuts. Sort of an interest-free loan from Uncle Sam.

Taxpayers whose advance payment is larger than the credit amount figured on the 2001 tax return will not have to pay back any difference.

Translation: if they were wrong, and the amount of money you actually save on your 2001 taxes is less than the money they send you this summer, you get FREE MONEY from Uncle Sam! No strings attached! It's better than Christmas! Christmas in August! (September for you late-digit types.) Who pays for this? The rest of the taxpayers, of course.

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Hey, don't take my word for it -- click the link above and read it for yourselves!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:11 PM

Loopy , your compassion for the poor knows no bounds. We should call you Saint Loopy.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:27 PM

Like I said, I have compassion for those who are truly poor by no fault of their own. I want to help those people and am willing to do so. It's when irresponsible behavior on a repeated basis leads to poverty that my compassion wanes. I assume from the one line of sarcasm aimed at me that there is nothing in my post you disagree with or can prove to be inaccurate. That's understandable--it's much easier when faced with unpleasant facts to just accuse the person presenting them of being uncaring or heartless, as you did in so many words. I just want all liberals to tell me: What will make you happy? Redistribute income until everyone makes the exact same salary? Give all earnings to the government and let them decide who gets what "according to their needs"? Socialize everything so the entire country runs as efficiently as the Post Office and V.A. Hospital System? If that's your idea of compassion, then I'm the most cold-hearted person you'd ever want to meet.

Saint Loopy

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:31 PM

The post office runs amazingly efficiently. They move millions of pieces of mail every day, most for 34 cents. Which of the private postal carriers can do it for even 10 times that much? Leave the post office alone.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: sledge
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:31 PM

One way for those in the states to look at it, is that at least Dubya gives you a kiss before he Fucks ya. :-)

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:38 PM

Very comforting, Sledge. :-)

Revise what I said about the USPS: 34 cents OR LESS. The vast majority of mail is "junk mail" most of which pays less than 34 cents, and subsidizes our very low first-class rate.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM

What a great idea! Release Social Security funds to tax payers so that they can invest individually and achieve much higher returns. Like the -20 to -80% returns they would have achieved using money market funds in the past year. True this might achieve a Bush aim - getting more money into the stock market and the hands of the corporations who are represented there. The down side will be, if this kind of plan goes forward, that millions of taxpayers may in fact LOSE retirement funds as opposed to the safe but low-yielding plan currently in place. I also predict that the very people who are clamoring to be allowed to invest Social Security monies as they see fit will be the first in line to clamor that the Government failed to protect their retirement and the first to demand compensation.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:49 PM

Loopy,

I will admit to agreeing with you, mostly. I agree that someone elses irresponsibility is not a call to me to support them. I will however be glad to help their human issue of such irresponsible behavior. Its not the kids fault that their parents are deadbeats.

But that discussion is a dark hole I don't want to navigate in this thread.

I won't agree that the VA Hospitals are well run. I have a friend who had a colonoscopy at the VA. No prep, no paliative procedures, several biopsys, just take the pipe and smile. Not even a cigarette when it was over. The diagnosis: Colon cancer, surgery in 3 weeks, you'll have a non reversable colostomy at the Governments expense.

He was in a state of shock. When his friends insisted he get a second opinion the diagnosis was: Major infection of the colon lining, lots of high priced anti biotics but the infection was 100% reversable. If thats the VA at its most efficient, I want my taxes to go elsewhere. Our vets deserve alot more than tis from Uncle Sam.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM

To all of you conservatives who are always bitching about taxes, The USA is the strongest nation in the world right now, yet we are taxed the LEAST of any modern nation. We all want good roads, a strong military, a solvent Social Security etc, but, it sounds like democrats are willing to pay for those services, while the republicans bitch about paying while they enjoy the benefits. Now, wanna know why we are taxed at the rate we are? In a word,PORKBARREL. When Senator Byrd was in charge of highway funding, he grabbed 70% of the road money for West Virginia. Thats just an example, they ALL do it. Why do you think Strom Thurmond, that old racist, gets re elected year after year? he cant hear himself fart, but, there he is, propped up by friends and making sure South Carolina gets its share of the porkbarrel. This is why I am in favor of term limits. It would put an end to the seniority system, and the porkbarrel system at the same time. It really burns me up that I can't vote to kick those right wing whackos out of congress, but, with term limits, people like Jesse Helms and Trent Lott would be out after a reasonable time. Where is all this ranting leading? To this question, who is at fault for every one of the problems in congress and the White House? WE ARE!!