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BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: toadfrog Date: 02 Sep 01 - 02:38 PM Doug R.: I believe I probably misquoted the article when I spoke or no zoning regulations. Probably it did not go that far. However, it did say, is that there were no restrictions on an owner's right to subdivide property, and that in exercising these rights, property owners had created extensive rural slums. (So that I misspoke in calling them urban slums.) And I did not have the impression, from the article, that Pima County was a one horse town. On the contrary, the impression was that the problem existed on a wide scale and was quite serious. It could be, of course, that the article was just a pack of lies. Virtually anything could be. On the other hand, it is possible that serious problems exist under your nose, and you haven't noticed them. GUEST Dewey: I don't think you read me correctly. I have not suggested, anywhere, that "capitalism is evil." For one thing, "capitalism" is a vague term that could mean almost anything. Among other things, it means the status quo. The status quo is not "evil," it is the set of circumstances we live under. Life is good, on balance, in the good ol' U.S.A., so the circumstances aren't "evil." On the other hand, the system does have serious flaws. "Capitalism," as we know it, does involve some abuses. It does not necessarily follow it should be overthrown. On the other hand, one should not go out of one's way to make the abuses worse. And it appears to me that there are people whose only purpose in life is to make those abuses as bad as they can possibly be made. As for "preaching self reliance," there is nothing wrong with telling people they should save for the future. On the other hand, it is a cheap shot to tell poor people that their problems all spring from their own improvidence and lack of moral fiber. It is wrong for the privileged to use "self reliance," as a slogan to belittle and demean others less fortunate than themselves, and to cheat them of what little they do have. And that, after all, is what is meant by "Libertarianism" in America today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: MAV Date: 02 Sep 01 - 01:14 PM I think it's about time for a new thread. Don't you? Click mav out
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:43 PM Interesting, Guest AKRick. I hadn't heard that. Evidently our newspaper didn't carry the story. Interesting, too, that the talking heads on TV, so unfriendly to the current Administration didn't pick up on it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,AKRick Date: 02 Sep 01 - 07:54 AM There was an article buried in our local paper recently. It said that since discovering there was no surplus, the government had to borrow money to send out the "rebate" checks. From what I understand, this means the government had to buy bonds. This also means that taxpayers will have to pay plus interest for these bonds, nullifying anything we just received. The only winners are those that sell these bonds to the government, who happen to be the same (wealthy) people that invested in Bush's presidency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 02 Sep 01 - 06:36 AM Toad. You are generalizing again. Just because one seeks financial freedom and self relience (and mention its possibilities) does not mean one wants to take over the world. Please keep an open mind on this issue and lighten up. You can only push the "Capitalism Is Evil" argument so far. Everyone should have a decent savings and a future. Not everyone preaching self-relience will go on to become the future leader of a multi-national corporation, working daily to exploit the third world, working class etc. Dewey
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 02 Sep 01 - 05:51 AM Whether you make $8,000 a year, or $800,000 a year, I highly recommend the following book for anyone interested in building a nest-egg, despite the bad economy, taxes etc. Or any other excuse one might concoct to justify his or her financial irresponsibility. The Richest Man in Babylon by George S. Clason. Your economic future is YOUR responsibilty Not your Senator's Not your Neighbor's Not your Banker's |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,Dwey Date: 02 Sep 01 - 05:42 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 02 Sep 01 - 05:27 AM TOAD FROG You make many excellent points about poverty and interdependence. I am for inter-dependence and economic opportunities. And I am also aware that for many hardworking cash-starved families any assists from the government may be a Godsend. Poverty is everywhere and is a fact of life. My only point I was making, is that the $600 tax rebate for families, does little to change any family's life. Many families start out in life young and ambitious with more needs and gratifications than thier pocketbook will allow, They heap upon themselves endless piles of debt, because they have learned little about financial responsibilty and discipline. Their bad money habits are just as much responsible for there future and outcomes as their lack of wages, high taxes poor education etc. (Henry Ford for example was raised in poverty and ignorance and seemed to do alright for himself) Many of these families have spent EVERY SINGLE CENT OF THIER MONEY AND THEN CHOSE TO BORROW MORE FROM BANKS FRIENDS, GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS etc. You can't grow a plant without a seed, yet most people do not own any seeds financially,they have spent all their money seeds. They give them all to someone else and gratify their "own personal needs", and them ask their nieghbor or their banker for more. I know of some friends who will not be able to pay off their debts for the next 20 years or more. I know from experience and hard work, that even when you work hard and controll ALL of your expenses and stay out of debt that there is very little left over for your own personal needs. Sometimes I have found basic needs are STILL not met. But if you are smart you will do without, (sometimes even without the things you legitmately need) so that you may plant for yourself a financial seed to protect, nurture and grow.
I also believe that it is only by being at the bottom, (which I have been) experiencing the bottom, and working your way slowly (very slowly) even LABORIOUSLY from the bottom that you fully realize the challenge of life itself. Foolish people believe life is easy. Even more foolish people believe that when life is difficult it is someone elses fault because it is difficult. Difficulties will never break you, they are Gods gift to you, for they keep you humble, disciplined and wise, because they were put there for your experience and education. Life itself is an education and we are all given tests whether we like them or not. We either pass them, or we are forced to continue to take them until we pass. Dewey (a former poor boy) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: MAV Date: 01 Sep 01 - 09:14 PM Dear Malcontents, I was planning to protest the ongoing blatant and offensive bias displayed in this thread concerning your deliberate disrespectful commentary portraying President Bush as a MORON, DUNCE, IDIOT etc!! I have decided instead to investigate what it is you really are attemping to deceptively propagandize against and I have found the obvious answer in the following facts. In the spirit of "equal time" I respectfully submit that according to a recent ABC News/Washington Post poll .
The President's approval rating is 59%. Americans say the President is taking a stronger leadership role than congressional Democrats by 51-38.
68% say the President has strong personal character. 67% say the President is a strong commander-in-chief. 67% say the President has a vision for the future.
On the issue of education, 63% approve of the President's performance.
A majority of those polled say the President has brought needed change to Washington. 60% say the President told the truth about the policies he would pursue as President. At the same point in his presidency, only 46% said the same of President Clinton.
Remember, only about 30% of the voters are registered Republicans and 30% are registered Democrats.
The President's Successes: Education- House passed May 23 (384-45); Senate passed June 14 (91-8)
Tax Relief- House passed May 26 (240-154); Senate passed May 26 (58-33); Signed June 7
Community & Faith-Based Agenda- House passed July 19; bipartisan bill introduced in Senate
Prescription Drugs- Unveiled new drug discount card for seniors on July 12; sent Congress Immediate Helping Hand proposal on January 29
Medicare- Unveiled principles for improving Medicare on July 12
Social Security- Appointed bipartisan Commission to Strengthen Social Security on May 2
Patient Protections -Forged bipartisan solution on August 1; Passed House August 2
Energy -Unveiled comprehensive national strategy; House passed August 1 (240-189)
Trade- Sent Congress international trade agenda on May 10 Economy- Took immediate action to boost our lagging economy by enacting tax relief, paying off historic levels of government debt, and pursuing policies to open world markets to American goods and services.
Budget- House passed March 28; Senate passed April 6 (65-35)
New Freedom Initiative- President submitted to Congress February 1; key components implemented
Defense- Signed quality of life increases for housing, pay and training on July 24; directed Secretary Rumsfeld to conduct comprehensive defense review
Debt Reduction- Budget provided the fastest, largest debt reduction in history
Environment- Budget includes historic levels of funding for environmental conservation and protection; ordered Cabinet-level review of climate change and reported initial plans on June 11.
Campaign Finance Reform- Sent Congress principles for reform on March 15
Election Reform -Accepted Ford/Carter National Commission on Federal Election Reform and announced principles for election reform with President Carter on July 3
Racial Profiling -Ordered Attorney General to review federal policies
Foreign Policy -Met personally with more than 60 world leaders. Visited Mexico, Canada, Spain, Belgium, Sweden, Poland, Slovenia, Kosovo, Italy and England.
President Bush accomplished all this - and more - despite having a razor-thin majority in the House and a Senate that is now controlled by the opposition party. By comparison, President Clinton in 1993 enjoyed large majorities (82 seats in the House and 14 seats in the Senate) yet still wasn't able to deliver on his key campaign priorities. Additionally, many of the scandals which plagued the the Clintons had erupted by now during this period of their administration. Having nothing better to harp on, the fact that the liberals, mafia and socialists persist in their effort to portray President Bush as mentally deficient and inept is WEAK, very weak indeed. It indicates nothing more than their delicate condition of desperation as do the futile and crybaby rantings of both D'ashole and Garp D!*khead. It's a good thing for you "W" is such a moron and so ineffective or you marxists (and other self serving pro-bureaucrat special interest groups) would be in real trouble.
By the way, "W" has also promised to let the thousands of social program department head positions die of attrition as the people retire. Their office staffs will also be dismissed. That perot-vian "giant sucking sound" of "non-essential government employees" will be lessened, then stopped. mav out
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:40 PM Toad, why don't you check your facts, rather than rely on an article in the "Wall Street Journal," that appeared "within the past six months"? The seat of Pima county government is located in Tucson, Arizona, a city of over 450,000 people. Tucson is hardly what one might describe as a little one-horse town. I don't doubt that such an article was written, it concerns me, though, that with as much information as is available on the Internet, one would use that article as an arguing piece without at least checking out some facts for one's self. It's not difficult. Do a search of Pima County Arizona and click on "Pima County Board of Suprvisors." In that section you will find a chapter titled: General Residential and Rural Zoning Provisions. Within that chapter, check out 18.09. I believe there, you will find that, in fact, Pima County does have zoning laws. It is possible in some pockets of rural Pima County that some zoning laws might be ignored and some residents may have old cars and trash parked in front of their homes (trailors), but I think you would find the same thing in similar pockets of any county in the country. The fact that they exist, I would argue, however, is because there are some people who do not have the pride of ownership, or who simply don't care that their yards are cluttered as the majority of people do. Those folks, too, will be found in every county in the U. S., and perhaps the world. The "Wall Street Journal" was not the first, nor will it be the last major newspaper to "trash" an area hoping to garner more readers. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: toadfrog Date: 01 Sep 01 - 12:40 PM Well, Loopy, the Wall Street Journal ran, within the past 6 months, an article on Pima County, Arizona, where they are so libertarian there are no zoning laws, every property owner being free to subdivide property as he/she/it wishes. And they do subdivide, creating extremely small lots, which people buy and put their trailers on. And before they buy, they are not told that they will not have access to streets or county roads. These are the urban slums of the Libertarian Future, with no public services, rusted out cars, and garbage, not because poor people are worse than rich people, as the Loopies of this world would have us believe, but because there is no garbage service. And the trailers often burn, for they are only connected by dirt paths where the fire trucks won't go. Where the County can't afford to provide fire and police services. This is what the Libertarian heaven will look like. I suggest you read the article before responding to this one. Please don't tell me how the Wall Street Journal has a "liberal bias." It doesn't. And don't tell me to "trust" you. Why should I? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:50 PM I have to agree with kat on this one. Whether or not one keeps his/her place neat and tidy can't be measured by the amount of money in the bank. I have seen many neat neighborhoods where people take pride in their places but they are not blessed with a big bank account. Generalizations of any kind are hard to support, I think. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: katlaughing Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:09 PM And trust me, it doesn't matter what state you're in, the less money a person earns, the more trash you will find in their yard. Talk about generalities! I live on the poor side of town, with a tradition of mostly minority population, and it is no more trashy than other parts, even though more poor people live in this section. In fact I've seen more places in this section which look neat, yet inviting, more like "homes" rather than "showplaces" than elsewhere in town. Just because a person may not have a lot of money doesn't mean they are slobs of any sort. This was also true of other palces I have lived, back East, and elsewhere in the Rocky Mountains. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: LoopySanchez Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:18 PM Funny, I thought when Clinton took office that all the homeless people immediately found homes... I mean, the weekly homeless updates courtesy of Brokaw, Jennings, and Rather all but disappeared, so I had to assume such was the case. Thanks for alerting me to the fact that homeless people are once again a problem, now that a mean, greedy Republican president is back in office and has kicked them all out of the luxurious homes that Clinton gave them... ...Linking a high suicide rate to the government and your community not loving you makes about as much sense as blaming Sesame Street for your not winning the powerball lottery because Big Bird taught you the wrong numbers. The fact is, Nevada has a high suicide rate because gambling produces two things: Losers and alcoholics. Both types tend to kill themselves a little more than your average Libertarian. Not that I'm against gambling: I think it's a great way to indirectly tax people who are bad at math. As for Arizona, their suicide rate is largely due to the Native American population, in which unemployment alcoholism, and depression have taken their toll more than anyone would want to imagine... (If anyone wants to start the petition for reparations for Native Americans, just tell me where to sign, and who to make the check out to.)... ...And trust me, it doesn't matter what state you're in, the less money a person earns, the more trash you will find in their yard. I'm not against the government enforcing ordinances at the local level; If the town law says keep your yard clean, then fine the people who don't. Please don't use generalities to equate Libertarianism with Anarchy. I can assure you all attempts will fail. But don't let the facts stand in the way, come on back, both barrels blazing with generalities and justifications for the guilty feelings. I'll look foward to the next round :-) Don H. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 31 Aug 01 - 02:28 PM Hmmm. Toad, I live in Arizona and I haven't seen any of that "garbage, or rusted-out cars, etc., piled up in people's front yards!" Am I just looking in the wrong places? Great job of inaccurate generalization, it appears to me. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: toadfrog Date: 31 Aug 01 - 02:02 PM It may be that it is sound to have a tax rebate in a year when we could be looking at a recession, to prime the pump a bit. Doesn't seem to be working yet, but maybe we should be patient. Bear in mind, though, that the rebates this year are only a tiny part of W's tax cut plan, which lasts more than ten years and is going to to leave huge problems for whoever comes after W. And that this tax cut is linked to new programs, like SDI, requiring enormous new expenditures. Finally, I suppose it's a free country, so anybody is free to maintain that they are self-reliant, don't count on the government, and that everyone else should be self-reliant like them. However, they should be aware that that's just empty propaganda. We aren't living in 1770 any more. Everyone is dependent, either on the government or on a private employer, and people who brag of their "self reliance" basically mean, "I am in a position of power in the private sector, and I want more power. The government should be so weak, that I have power of life and death over you. And then maybe I'll wring your scrawny neck, if I happen not to like your accent, or the color of your skin, or your uppity attitude." Note also, that "self reliance," as these folks define it, means not being able to count on your neighbor, so that it is the "libertarian" States, like Nevada and Arizona, where the suicide rate is highest, and you see the most garbage, rusted-out cars, etc., piled up in people's front yards. And the world's richest nation now has crowds of homeless people begging on the streets - a problem which did not exist before Ronald Reagan (as governor of Cal.) decided that "self reliance" would be good for all the people in menatal institutions. Oh boy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: LoopySanchez Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:57 PM If you were to send out 60 million checks and not a single one bounced, that would be more surprising to me than for a small percentage to bounce due to computer or clerical errors. Funny though, the checks never bounce when it comes to funding any program that expands the role of government. If they do, I've never heard of NPR doing a story on it... Hmmmm... you don't think they might be? Naaahhh!
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: LoopySanchez Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:15 PM A Riddle: If this $40 billion Republican tax cut is too much, then what was the $80 billion tax cut proposed by Democrat Richard Gephardt? Democratic Answer: It was just the right amount, because surely his tax cut would've stuck it to rich white people. We don't worry about spending surpluses if the wealth is being transferred to acceptable people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: katlaughing Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:13 PM My dad heard on the news last night that a bunch more rebate checks bounced in the New England region. Any have any info on that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: LoopySanchez Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:10 PM Hola, Jacque & Doug, I was wondering the same thing when I saw your posts. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who enjoys diving knee-deep into the piranha when it comes to balancing the thread. I guess we should consider it a compliment that it takes 100 liberals to match 3 conservative viewpoints. And I rarely hear any evidence that what I've said is untrue--I usually get back replies that equate to "Bush is a fraud", "Bush is an idiot", "Reagan was the devil", "America is cruel because it doesn't practice western European socialism", "It's different in Great Britain so you must be wrong", or "You're a racist". Other times I'll read a post that changes my mind on an issue, or provides a perspective I hadn't considered. Either way, all responses have become music to my ears, because I realize that the debate is essentially over for the point in question, or I've learn something new that helps adjust my view on the subject as the debate continues. Keep em' honest, amigos! Don H. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 31 Aug 01 - 12:00 PM Uncle Jacque; Loopy, where you guys been? I read both of your posts, and for a moment thought I was in the wrong forum! It's nice to have company. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: Uncle Jaque Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:29 AM "... The goddam guy stole the f##king election and now, without a whimper from "the people", has effectively designed the eventual destruction of a meaningful future role for Social Security in the lives of those same people who,like me, paid into it for all the years ...." (AT) Sheesh!; It's gettng easier to spot a Liberal on these threads all the time; just scan for a few key words & phrases...
Say, Art; That was pretty clever of GWB to "steal" the said election when the other (your guy, I assume) had the #1 top-dog election Fraudmeister in the US of A, "Bugsy" DALY on his team... no doubt just to keep Bugsy from falling into the service of the GOP who, as it turned out, did all right without him. And all those cigarettes for votes, and the Union vans loaded with multiple-identity nomadic voters (must be nice to get the day off with pay in order to "get out the vote"), and the College Students (many at the behest of their Profs) who registered & voted locally, as well as absentee in their home states, and similar stunts used with impunity (when's the last time you saw a prosecution for voter fraud?) for decades.. Pretty darn crafty!
But... OH!! Wait!!;
In some states, I understand, these shenannigans are being looked into, and 2002 may be a somewhat different scenario. Beyond that I ain't gonna say... but it ain't over, sports fans; stay tuned!
Hey, Loopy! Welcome aboard! And Claymore - take the "cookie" and jump right in, lad; the pirrahnah are bitin' just fine (in case you haven't noticed by now)! Although "Conservative Musician" seems like a contradiction in terms, or an oxymoron in most circles, there are a few of us survivors out here tenaciously resisting extinction (Hillary is going to have to wait a few years before she has us dissenters rounded up and neutralized). Hold your ground; if we don't have time to post in your defence (as well as that of the Constitution) we'll be rootin' for ya! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: katlaughing Date: 31 Aug 01 - 10:49 AM John Hudson of Louisville, KY had his $300 tax prebate bounce on him. He has put it in a safety deposit box thinking it will be worth more, as the only one of 60 million which got sent back for insufficent funds. True story, on NPR this morning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: LoopySanchez Date: 31 Aug 01 - 10:47 AM A few observations on the "open letter to the president": ***"Spend the time before your inaugural convincing skittish investors that a "recession is right around the corner". "That way you could be guaranteed that there would be a downturn that you wouldn't have to be blamed for." Would it have been better for him to say that Clinton left us with a robust economy that showed no signs of a downturn? If he'd done that, Democrats would have called him a liar just as easily. And if a president-elect's words can convince an entire nation that an economy is headed in a certain direction, then why was it that America's economy was experiencing 3.2% growth under George Bush in in November 1992 when Clinton continued to claim that America had its worst economy in 50 years? Several leading economists who had gone along with Clinton's rhetoric issued a collective formal apology to Bush after they looked at the facts on that one. "This brilliantly ignored the fact that most of the working poor pay a greater proportion of the tax burden as Payroll taxes"... Everyone who works pays payroll taxes. Are you saying that the benefits that come from those payroll taxes should be less for some, and that others should essentially subsidize their benefit plan? Are you saying that if you make over x number of dollars, you have to pay more for your benefits than someone who makes less than x dollars? All so you can earn 1.9% interest on your benefits, if you live long enough to see them? If anyone can tell me how making a black man with an average life expectancy of 65 put 15% of his income into a retirement plan which the government takes back if he dies before he reaches retirement age (65) is not racist, and I'll buy you a Coke. But the government knows that his family doesn't need that money, old white people he's never heard of need it more. But privatization is a bad thing, right? ***"Thanks in good part to you, your badmouthing of the economy, and your tax cut, we will not have to worry about that pesky surplus". The surplus was originally predicted to be $730 billion over the next 3 years, now the CBO predicts it to be $702 billion. I tell you, that Bush is just destroying the economy, isn't he? And keep in mind that the $9 billion from social security surplus is actually nothing but IOUs written on government bonds. The bonds don't reflect real savings, as would an individual retirement account that earns interest on your money and has your name on it. Future retirees will have to depend on the kindness of politicians, not their own money. And remember, none of this would be an issue if the Democratic congress hadn't spent $326 billion in Social Security surpluses during the time Dick Gephardt's reign as House Majority Leader. I'm curious as to how many people complaining about the $9 billion Bush is spending were more than happy to let the Democratic Congress approve that $326 billion. Oh, but that was Reagan's fault, right? Yep, the Deomcratic majority in both houses back then just couldn't stop Old Man Reagan from spending all that Social Security money, could they? One tip for those who've read this far: When it's time for Bush to sign the budget, in which the Democrats want more spending than he does, be sure to blame him if he vetoes their spending bills and causes some portions of the government to shut down... Just like you did when the Republican Congress wanted less spending in 1995 and Clinton vetoed their bills to shut down government that year. Oh what's that? Liberals and the national media (redundancy?) didn't blame the president for that shutdown? Well, it will certainly be nice to hear them play a new tune this go around. Here's hoping common sense prevails, with Bush cutting the amounts he wants to pour into Defense, and Democrats reducing some of their demands as well to keep the early eighties from happening all over again.
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:52 AM Thanks for the Fort Knox Analogy. Art. I now better understand the yearly "Budget Surplus". And I owe my conservative friends out there an apology for thinking the government would actually put aside any money for our future. A humbled and embarrassed Dewey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 30 Aug 01 - 06:21 PM Sigh! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: Lee Shore Date: 30 Aug 01 - 04:15 PM Thanks Mr. President, MY BONEY OLD ASS! First of all Dubya didn't think this up, his "handlers" did. That fool never had an idea of his own in his whole life. Secondly, the whole thing was a phony. The checks aren't even all distributed yet, and already the administration is fixing to raid our Social Security for 9 billion bucks, because they just "discovered" that the "surplus" was nothing but smoke and mirrors. Anybody want to start a pool to guess when that $9 billion is going to be returned to Soc. Sec.? I'm marking my ballot "Never." Congress will probably slide this deal through like greasy catfish through a goose, because that parliament of whores don't worry about social security. Why would they? Have you ever seen the sweetheart pension deal they set up for themselves? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: Deda Date: 30 Aug 01 - 02:42 PM I wanted to give my entire "W" check to a few environmental groups, to try to offset in small measure the hideous damage Dubya and his coal-&-oil-lobby cronies are doing and plan to continue to do to the air, land, water, and future of this once-lovely planet. At the time I got the check my funds were so low I couldn't give it away after all, but I'm still hoping to make up for that when I get my paycheck next week. It grieves me mightily to have a president with the IQ of a toaster. I agree with the previous poster who preferred a Rhodes scholar with a very loose zipper to this smirking, malevolent dummy. History is full of great and gifted leaders with messy personal lives, and, contrary-wise, with self-righteous prudes with huge egos but no noticeable talent, except perhaps a talent for doing harm. The unlamented Jesse Helms, for one. All that said, I'm kinda sorry to see and participate in a political thread here. The world is divided enough; I've felt for years that I was witnessing and living through a low-grade, subterranean civil war. This is a place to talk about music in its many, miraculous ramifications, which has always been and continues to be a source of endless joy for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 30 Aug 01 - 02:03 PM GUEST, GUEST: grateful to GW, but reluctant to identify yourself to the Catters, eh? Oh well. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,GUEST Date: 30 Aug 01 - 01:24 PM We just received our refund of taxes for 2001 already paid at a higher rate than that just enacted, and we deposited the entire amount, $ 600.00 into an IRA. The tax savings that accrue to this investment will total $ 128.00. The $ 600 will grow tax deferred for ten or more years and will help to supplement our pensions and social security. Thanks Mr. GW Bush! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: Walter Corey Date: 30 Aug 01 - 10:23 AM I wanted to add my thanks to the President:
Dear Mr. President,
Thanks to you, my wife & I will finally be able to get that new crock pot at Wal-marts that we have been dreaming of.
I think your plan was sheer genius;
a)Spend the time before your inaugural convincing skittish investors that a "recession is right around the corner". That way you could be guaranteed that there would be a downturn that you wouldn't have to be blamed for.
b)Pretend that the income tax is the only tax that people pay, and that reducing that tax is a fair way to reduce taxes for all. This brilliantly ignored the fact that most of the working poor pay a greater proportion of the tax burden as Payroll taxes. The rich get a relatively free ride on this because there is a cutoff, beyond which you pay no further taxes. Thus you were able to give your rich compatriots not only a greater absolute amount of the total rebate, but also a greater relative reduction in total taxes paid. Ronald Reagan at his best could not have done as well!
c)When you finally did take office, and the economy really was tanking, you could then step into the breach and offer the tax cut as the way out of the problem. (A little like the arsonist staying around to help put out the fire?)
Thanks in good part to you, your badmouthing of the economy, and your tax cut, we will not have to worry about that pesky surplus, and will not have to make the hard decisions about which truly needy finally get a piece of the American Pie. Pretty good for a guy who couldn't even get a majority of Americans to vote for him! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:50 AM No Doug, I read the threads instead. So often a movie just doesn't translate the crappola we have on a thread, although they often make as little sense. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:47 AM But it's not clear to me yet, Spaw, whether or not YOU have seen it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:24 AM Maybe we could get some of that SS money to fund another "Songcatcher" movie? I mean the first has hardly been seen by anyone yet, but we have ten threads on it. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: Kaleea Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:20 AM Read his lips! "There will be no need to dip into Social Security." Read his lips! Albert Gore, "The plan Mr. Bush has put forth will force the country to use funds from the Social Security funds." Read his lips! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 29 Aug 01 - 07:11 PM I don't think that's too much to expect Celtic Soul. Loopy, you don't sound loopy to me. Right on! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: Celtic Soul Date: 29 Aug 01 - 05:41 PM Well, Sanchez, there's another option altogether. :D We could not take our political parties so seriously, and allow that what we think we "know" may very well be what we are already predisposed to believe, and not necessarily the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Stats are skewed all the time (from all corners of the arena). Thus, there is probably at least some truth no matter which set of stats you're reading. For me, the idea is simply to vote for someone I believe won't be an idiot or a liar, regardless of what party he/she calls "home". Call me idealistic, but I'd like the leader of my country to have both integrity and intelligence. ;D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: LoopySanchez Date: 29 Aug 01 - 04:29 PM Decrease taxes during economic slowdowns, and the economy improves. Reagan proved it in 1982, when he cut taxes and increased tax revenue at the same time. By 1989 when he left office, yearly tax revenues to the Fed. Govt had doubled (in real dollars). At the same time, unemployment decreased, interest rates decreased, and economic growth increased. (He just sucked at deciding how to spend it--Then again, we're still around, and managed to successfully out-spend the USSR into oblivion... I know that's still a tender subject for some at Mudcat who think that Communism is an ideal political system that just hasn't been tried in its pure form yet. Back to the tax cut results: The same thing happened in 1995 when the Republicans took control of both seats of Congress. They lowered capital gains taxes from 28% to 21%, and the stock market (which had hovered around 3000 since Clinton took office) soared to over 10,000 by the end of his second term. It's too simple really. What never seems to be simple is any explanation from a Democrat when you ask them how a tax rebate cuts into Social Security surpluses, but new governemnt spending does not.
By the way, for those who are upset about Bush using some of the SS surplus to pay back some excess taxes to the citizens, keep in mind that SS has always been part of the general budget, and has been raided far more often and severely by Democrats in years past. During the years in which Dick Gephardt was House Majority Leader, Congress spent $326 BILLION in Social Security surpluses on other government projects? And that was when the nation was running a DEFICIT! Kettle, this is the pot... have you two met? I'm outtahere and off to talk about music, of all things. Hope everyone's having a good one!
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 29 Aug 01 - 04:18 PM I think what your honeys ex did is kinda funny too, Celtic Soul. Maybe she was seeking advance retribution? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: Kim C Date: 29 Aug 01 - 03:20 PM We got ours. It went right into the savings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,Celtic Soul Date: 29 Aug 01 - 02:33 PM If it is a pre-fund and not a re-fund, consider this. You can put it somewhere and earn a little interest on it before Unca Sam asks for it in earnest. Mine will likely be going right back to the IRS to pay my honeys back taxes from a year when his (then) girlfriend did their taxes and decided that, if she didn't know what to do with a 1099 income advice, she'd ignore it in hopes it would go away (this woman has an MCSE and a host of other accomplishments, please someone explain this so I can understand). Politics makes my brain bleed, which is why I am an independent, and have voted the crazy ticket for many years now. What I thought was very notable in the initial post was this, though: "The car rental for my Ireland trip in the latter part of August just got a significant upgrade, (an automatic transmission, since I don't want to be downshifting my door handle as I approach one of them round-about things)." Now *that* is funny!! Oh how I howled! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 29 Aug 01 - 02:04 PM I'd like a piece too, Spaw! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Aug 01 - 12:59 PM You've got to be kidding Doug. De-politicize the greatest political football? Whatever will they play with? Strange how we rebate all this and do the tax cut thing and the economy goes into the shitter.........I guess a blowjob IS good for the economy as it turns out, whereas two generations of drunk drivers produce a "slight downturn." And BJ's are a lot more fun too................ Gimmee peace................ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 29 Aug 01 - 12:49 PM Dewey: I congratulate you on your willingness to get out and make it on your own without looking to the government to take care of your needs. You are obviously bright, aggressive and ambitious. All good qualities. The government should not have to rely on surpluses to save social security. The social security program is a whole other subject in my view from the government accruing a surplus. If the government has a surplus (and evidently it will be 100+ billion at the close of this fiscal year), it is a sure sign that that the government is taxing us too much. It should not take more from us than it needs to operate government programs. I think the SS commission appointed by the president will come up with a workable program to save SS. There is no guarantee, however, that the democratic senate will approve it, however. Both parties should de-politicize social security. My view, at least. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,artbrooks@work Date: 29 Aug 01 - 12:45 PM A government "budget surplus" doesn't mean that there are excess funds sitting someplace (Ft. Knox?). It means that future income (which is essentially made up of income taxes plus government borrowing) will exceed future expenses/expenditures by some amount. This is all based on projections and assumptions, and when these turn out to be wrong then everything goes belly-up. During an economic downturn (let's not use the R word) is probably the wrong time to increase spending (have you seen the Defense bill?!!), decrease taxes, send out a $300/$600 bribe to most US citizens, and still expect there to be a surplus when you're finished. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 29 Aug 01 - 06:27 AM DougR I agree with you that the Government should give us back some of our hard earned cash. I hope however, you are not suggesting that the government run on a zero-surplus status. This would not be very wise fiscally and morally. There are such things as entitlements, which is what this entire Tax Rebate debate is about. The Bush Team gave a rebate in which they will have to borrow from other government sources at present just to make sure all of those checks clear. Entitlements are important which is what the social security/medicare debate is all about. We don't want to merely blow this entitlement money now, when thousands of seniors and disabled people (past and present) will be depending of it for there sustainance. that is unfair! The goverment needs a surplus to defend social security's near future. Many Americans are displeased with the rebate and I believe THIS is why. It doesn't protect the future needs of entitlements. Not that Americans wouldn't like to see a bit of their hard earned tax money returned to them. If social security is to be overhauled, well then that is another issue entirely. Dewey |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 29 Aug 01 - 03:22 AM I can't see this tax break, or any other break the government gives as helping the economy much. The tax rebate is Politics and nothing else. Our future and our economy depends on each of us, not Uncle Sam. Why not save your hard earned money by reducing your expendetures by 10 percent! Why not take this 10 percent and stick it into a safe and secure vehicle of investment! Anybody in the world can gain wealth, if they will but save a portion of their income, and create for themselves an estate. Try getting by on 10 percent less, and you will soon find you will have an economic future. Give it all to the Bankers, Auto Dealers, Booze Salemen, etc. and you will not only have nothing, but you will find yourself falling behind, as you will owe others, and still remained unsatisfied and unable to gratify your so called "needs" Why not start a seed and nurture it? Don't have money? Tighten your belt! Do without something for a while. Get an extra part-time. Maybe even three if it is necessary! Do whatever it takes: work hard, mess around less, tear up your credit cards and pay cash whenever it is possible! We are a nation of DEBTORS and SPENDERS not a nation of savers and investors. This is the reason for the bad economy, NOT THE BAD ECONOMY ITSELF. Create an estate for yourself and your future. Money in the hands of fools is soon gone, despite any gratuity from the government. (if you doubt me, consult your local banker) If the only thing, the American People have to help prop up this economy is the lousy $300 tax rebate, We are in trouble far beyond anyone's imagination. I was 100 percent broke last year. I got myself a sleeping room, worked 70 hour work weeks, and saved $12,000 which went directly into the bank. (I am young and single). From this $12,000 I bought my own mobile, I own my car (which is reliable and about 4 years old now) I have a CREDIT CARD balance which I now am paying off every month in about $650.00 increments. I wouldn't have even had a credit card debt, but I used it as a cash advance for a couple of thousand dollars for start up living expenses when I moved in. By December I will be entirely debt free. And will be able to keep $1200 of what I earn EVERY SINGLE MONTH. This money goes directly to me. Not to everyone else to make someone else rich. You may be thinking: Big deal! A mobile home. He's Trailer Trash. But big trees grow from small acorns! I have no expenses! Everything I own is mine: paid for in cash! If I keep doing this (which I intend to) I can use my present assetts and savings to buy a HOUSE in cash. Within about 6 more years. I deliver pizzas for a living which isn't all that great of an income. So nobody give me that crap about low wages. Granted I don't have a family, (which I can sympathize might be a legitimate excuse for lack of money) but I am an un-insured type one diabetic who spends close about $300 out of my own pocket in medical expenses. Anyway learn to manage your money and you will have a great economic future, despite the poor economy unemployment figures, taxes etc. This above anything else is the economic break we should be looking for, not the tax rebate. I am spending mine! Dewey
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: DougR Date: 28 Aug 01 - 10:38 PM There is no Social Security Trust Fund. Believe me! The Republicans AND the Democrats tout the existance of such a fund, but EVERYTHING comes out of the general budget. So now the U.S. government ONLY has a SURPLUS of 150 Billion! Or 100 Billion! Or one Billion! Big deal, the government should not have ANY surplus. The national government is not supposed to be a profit oriented organization. Is it? DougR
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: Art Thieme Date: 28 Aug 01 - 08:54 PM If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can usually depend on the support of Paul. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President From: GUEST,Melani Date: 28 Aug 01 - 02:15 PM As I believe I said once before, the $600 that our kind president has sent us will not do anything to educate my kid--a., it wouldn't even pay a year's worth of tuition at a private school, and b., there are no private schools that we have been able to find (and we have looked) for kids with disabilities like his. The only suitable placement we have found for him is public school special ed, which is now going to be without great big bunches of money that has been mailed out to all of us to "stimulate" the economy. We have not yet decided what to do with the money, but will probably be forced to just put it on the credit card bill. |