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When a session gets Hijacked

The Shambles 15 Aug 01 - 04:20 PM
The Shambles 15 Aug 01 - 03:52 PM
Alice 15 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM
The Shambles 01 Aug 01 - 02:16 AM
ollaimh 31 Jul 01 - 08:07 PM
The Shambles 31 Jul 01 - 02:36 PM
Jeri 31 Jul 01 - 11:25 AM
Rick Fielding 31 Jul 01 - 11:12 AM
Jeri 31 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM
Jon Freeman 31 Jul 01 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,Rag 31 Jul 01 - 07:55 AM
The Shambles 30 Jul 01 - 11:48 AM
Rick Fielding 30 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM
The Shambles 30 Jul 01 - 10:52 AM
The Shambles 30 Jul 01 - 10:48 AM
Jon Freeman 30 Jul 01 - 09:20 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 30 Jul 01 - 08:45 AM
Jon Freeman 30 Jul 01 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,Rag 30 Jul 01 - 08:15 AM
M.Ted 30 Jul 01 - 01:44 AM
The Shambles 29 Jul 01 - 08:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jul 01 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,Raggytash 29 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Jul 01 - 07:03 PM
The Shambles 29 Jul 01 - 06:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jul 01 - 04:13 PM
Jon Freeman 29 Jul 01 - 03:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jul 01 - 02:54 PM
The Shambles 29 Jul 01 - 02:51 PM
Jon Freeman 29 Jul 01 - 02:30 PM
The Shambles 29 Jul 01 - 01:34 PM
Jon Freeman 29 Jul 01 - 12:53 PM
The Shambles 29 Jul 01 - 12:27 PM
Jon Freeman 29 Jul 01 - 11:46 AM
The Shambles 29 Jul 01 - 11:24 AM
Jon Freeman 29 Jul 01 - 11:18 AM
selby 29 Jul 01 - 11:10 AM
Celtic Soul 29 Jul 01 - 10:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jul 01 - 09:26 AM
Jon Freeman 29 Jul 01 - 09:17 AM
Jon Freeman 29 Jul 01 - 09:11 AM
Jon Freeman 29 Jul 01 - 08:27 AM
lady penelope 29 Jul 01 - 08:16 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jul 01 - 07:41 AM
Jon Freeman 29 Jul 01 - 07:27 AM
Cobble 29 Jul 01 - 07:14 AM
Jon Freeman 29 Jul 01 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,mike Cahill 29 Jul 01 - 06:29 AM
kendall 29 Jul 01 - 06:24 AM
kendall 29 Jul 01 - 06:19 AM
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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 04:20 PM

This is our council's view.

4. Public Entertainment Licensing
4.1 This Council is the Authority responsible for licensing public entertainment within the district of Weymouth and Portland. Members will be aware that the Government published a white paper last year proposing major review of licensing legislation. The current law however as regards the licensing of public entertainment is contained in the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982 Section 1 and Schedule 1.

4.2 It is it a requirements of the Act that public entertainment shall not be provided in any place except in accordance with a PEL issued by the Local Authority. The Act allows Authorities to grant Licenses subject to conditions and restrictions relating to the premises. In this Authority standard conditions are attached to PELs to promote public safety, public health and public order.

4.3 "Entertainment" is defined in the Act as "public dancing or music or any other entertainment of a like kind".

4.4 Exemptions from the need to obtain a Licence are contained in Section 182 of the Licensing Act 1964 including an exemption where the public entertainment is provided by not more than two performers.

4.5 Historically the Courts have determined that a licence is required not just where music is provided by paid performers to entertain the public but where members of the public themselves participate in music making. It has also been established that whether or not a fee is charged for admission to the performance is immaterial to the requirement for a Licence.

4.6Although these decisions date back to the 18th and 19th centuries they can be relied upon in interpreting current legislation since these points do not appear to have been tested by the Courts in recent times.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 03:52 PM

It is being done because not enough pressure is being placed by those that care on those that do not.

I would be grateful if you feel strongly about this (where ever you may live), if you could email you views to my local council and local paper? Details on how to do this can be found in the thread linked to above.

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Alice
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM

However the problems get worked out, I hope people continue forming sessions. What is happening in the UK to ban them is shocking to me. The teenagers that are now showing up at our session to join in are the future of this tradition. I am gladdened to see them take such a keen interest in being part of the music. I am astounded that a government would want to block this activity.

Alice in Montana


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 02:16 AM

Pleases excuse me if this is considered as hijacking the thread, but this issue is rather important and threatens the whole future of all these folk events in the UK.

The council's officers did not actually say 'take me to Cuba" or request any other song but they did terminally hijack the session.

Council Bans Etc


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: ollaimh
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 08:07 PM

i think that anyone who has hung around sessiuns for more than a few weeks will see that they are hotbeds of weird personal conflict. it's unfortunate but it is the nature of the beast. the veterns want it the way it was, new people want to paly their tunes, ira fight inla,blue grass meets irish without sucess, good players want to play, bad players think they are good players, i could go on.

you've got to expect it. i don't go to them, not that i wouldn't some time, but after too much of this i find it's easier just to go to listen if i go. i am also nova scotian so i'm not irish enough for the irish and not north american enough for the rest--what can i say?

i've seen a few that were encourgaging, but not often. there used to be a very friendly one in ottawa. cultus in toronto seems ok but i've only been a few times any i don't know many of their tunes.

but if you want to loose the bluegrassers just start a set or three of slipjigs--that'll get em almost everytime--oops that'll get me in trouble.

song circles are much the same.it's my take that both get quickly dominated by nine tio fivers and roving musicians are really not very welcome. as bill morrissey put it.

in all my travels this one thing i've found the laws they are not made for the man from out of town.

it was probably ever so.

i will say as a singer, as well as instrumentalist, that irish sessiuns usually shut up and listen when you sing a song, sometimes you can hear a pin drop by the second verse--i like that.

sessions at folk festivals are by necessity a mixed bag and you have to go with the flow or go away.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 02:36 PM

Maybe this is the answer?

The Virtual Session


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 11:25 AM

Rick, perhaps discapella is supplied by unaccompanists?

Is noodling hyperdiddlyism?


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 11:12 AM

Jeri said:

"I've had folks gently put their hands on my fiddle to get me to stop noodling, and I've been shushed for continuing a bit of chat when someone was starting a song. I consider the people who do this friends. I don't make a habit of annoying people, and I don't like it when I do - but it happens. They shush me, I shush them, and it works great unless someone takes it personally."

Jeri, if your attitude could be cloned, we'd live in a much better world.

Jeri said:

"Is there a term (besides the generic ones with asterisks in them) for people who play along on everything, including tha unaccompanied songs?"

PLEASE come up with one......in the meantime I still call them "assholes".

Rick


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM

Rag, I didn't say it earlier (about your "good old chestnut" post) but...Jon, me too - great post!!! People are people and there will always be disagreements and dislikes, and feelings will not be universally shared. One mark of a good session (or perhaps a good group) is that folks find ways to deal with those things that build the session instead of destroy it. It's always too easy to let anger at annoyances take over from reason and let the focus slip to be about the anger instead of the reason for the anger.

As for your post on "nurdlers and pootlers" (never heard those terms before) - we call 'em "noodlers." Noodling interferes with 1) folks who are trying to remember how a tune starts so they can play it, and 2) singers who are trying to find a key. (I once saw a t-shirt that had "Noodling" in a red circle with a diagonal slash through it - the international "NO" sign.)

You have to be careful though, because sometimes its a shy person actually trying to start a tune. They think perhaps a stronger player will hear them and give them a hand.

I'd hazard a guess that none of us are perfect. I've had folks gently put their hands on my fiddle to get me to stop noodling, and I've been shushed for continuing a bit of chat when someone was starting a song. I consider the people who do this friends. I don't make a habit of annoying people, and I don't like it when I do - but it happens. They shush me, I shush them, and it works great unless someone takes it personally.

Jon, I've started tunes and realised, while well into it, I've never played it before, and I don't have a clue how the B part goes. You just hope by that time, someone who does know the tune has joined in so they can keep it going.

Is there a term (besides the generic ones with asterisks in them) for people who play along on everything, including tha unaccompanied songs?


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 08:28 AM

Don't know about other vocabulary but I know the types...

Then there is the beginner or nervous player who attempts to start a tune but are playing it so badly that everyone else in the room are playing "guess the tune" until someone realises that te jumble is say "The Lark In The Morning". I always feel sorry for the person who is struggling like this but until you can work out what the tune is, there is nothing you can do to help. Once a stronger player does join and others join, the beginner usualy plays along quite happily and often looks relieved that their ordeal is over.

Then there are idiots like me who are quite capable of running into a tune I don't play - I get so far and then get stuck. Usually, it is not a disaster as others keep on going but I have been caught out a few times when the others have been as uncertain of the tune as I am and the whole thing comes to a grinding halt.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: GUEST,Rag
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 07:55 AM

While we are having a good old constructive dialog about wingeing about sessions, how about the nurdlers and the pootlers?

In our area, we sometimes get a few fiddlers who want to play a tune set but haven't yet decided on what they are going to play so they start up a bit of a rhythm by scraping two strings at a time - not a tune, more of a chair in the parking space to stop anyone else getting in. These are the nurdlers.

At the other end of the set, while they are trying to think of another tune to add on the end, they go for a but of experimental unstructured pootling where they play bits of parts of sections of tunes more or less at random for a few minutes until they come up with something they like.

Meanwhile, everyone else is, well, you get the idea.

Any other vocabulary that fits the sessions experience?


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:48 AM

Smiles


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM

Nah, Sham. Wouldn't work. DADGAD sounds lousy on nylon strung guitars.

Rick


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:52 AM

I can't help thinking every time I see this tread title, of heavly armed men bursting into a tiny 'boozer' and demanding "take me to Cuba"!


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:48 AM

Just remember to go for the music rather than the whingeing

Without The Song (There's no Show). In the Mudcat Songbook


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 09:20 AM

Just to pick up on Rag's, "it helps the music and those involved in it":

When I was in Wales, I knew 2 young girls (sisters) who both played the flute. I'm not a flute player but I always had the feeling that they both had about the same potential to be very good players.

The last time I heard them, the elder one had become a much better player (at least IMO) than the younger one and I believe the reason was that while one was studying in Sheffield and had the oppertunities to get out to very high quality sessions, the other was just sitting around with us lot.

We as a group never had the capabilities of offering the standard of playing that I've heard in say Fagin's, Sheffield but I can't help feeling that if the effort had been made locally to get things right to the best of our ability, the difference in standard between these 2 which was mostly in expression (one played rythmically and the other was producing more of a "wash" of notes) would have been less noticable.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:45 AM

Well said Guest, I have been to loads of sessions, some of them have been really good, whilst others have been a load of rubbish. I have just found one that is really good, the people there are all friendly and the music is very nice, unfortunatley for me it is on Fridays, I sometimes have to work fridays so I cant't always go, but I go when I can.I am not going to say where it is in case everybody else goes and gets all the seats.BG :-)


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:35 AM

Wow rag, I hate just doing the me too tpye posts but this time I've got to:

Great post!

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: GUEST,Rag
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:15 AM

Good old chestnut this one.

Ingredients:

Musicians who have practiced and learned their tunes and songs and who want to do the best they can

Audience, some of whom think you are only there for their benefit

Young musicians who are really keen and try to join in with everything even when they don't know the tune (That Eb chord was just what was missing...)

Nervous newcomers who just want a chance to have a go.

Old stagers who have very firm views on everything from the speed of a jig to the number of times each tune should be played and when.

And then there's usually half a dozen who have played sessions for years, seen it all come and go, watched the pub close, another one open, sessions moving around.

Of course there is a session etiquette. It's just plain rude to push in and take over someone else's tune set, or accompany an unaccompanied singer, or thrash about droning away in DADGAD when someone is trying to play a carefully chosen chords on a concertina. These things are just about maturity and understanding that no-one has an automatic right to treat everyone else at the session as background to practice against.

I sympathise with all the groans and moans and after more than 25 years I still go to sessions and try to find a comfortable way through the mass of hopelessly out of tune fiddlers, off-key singers, randomly-twitching bodhran owners, assorted clicking bits of bones, spoons, keys and anything else that will rattle, bloody-minded drone guitarists, loud parping concertina players, and all the other people we love to winge at.

On the other hand, I can think of loads of people who went through that stage, learned that courtesy extends to people in sessions, that they should try to develop some consideration for others and play a constructive part. Even to the extent of joining the elite ranks of the grumpy old buggers themselves! I think we do have to keep reminding people that a sesion is not a free-for-all, that we don't do it to provide people with somewhere to practice, that they music is worth listening to, and that just because you own an instrument you are not entitled to ride roughshod over other singers and musicians.

Getting the message across is not easy and you do risk being seen as the miserable old bugger who wants to control everything. But in my experience, there are very few people who take part in sessions who fail to see the point. It's worth making the effort to stop sessions degeneratng into a free-for-all, it helps the music and all those involved in it.

I say, keep wingeing, but do it kindly.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:44 AM

McGrath,

If you like a bit of the roughstuff with your music, perhaps you'd better move over to this side of the pond. I've got quite a few stories that are more or less true--everything from a real wild west style brawl where one of the participants smashed the mirror hehind the bar with a chair, to the night I stepped out to get some extra strings from my car just in time to see a shooting(and this a coffee house gig)--when the cops finally showed up, it was to tell us that the band was too loud (the neighbors apparently called them and complained that we drowned out the shooting), though perhaps you shouldn't judge the whole country by my experience, as I do a lot of original material--


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 08:02 PM

They didn't need a PEL as there were only two performers?

Remember the exemption.

Unless anybody clapped along?


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:20 PM

I remember the day the man in a wheelchair decked a conservative MP at Cambridge.

I felt good about that.

But they had a PEL.

I should hope so. That is what I call real public entertainnent


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM

Fiddlesticks, I've not read all the responses you've had, but I often find that when a session is being taken away from the instigators a very slow very quite song is enough to focus the attention of the assembled company. Try it , it may well work to create the ambiance you would like to make. Good Luck, May you be in heaven half an hour before the devil knows you're dead


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:03 PM

I remember the day the man in a wheelchair decked a conservative MP at Cambridge.

I felt good about that.

But they had a PEL.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 06:41 PM

"Mind me harp"!

Not too sure I like the turn this thread has taken?

There I am trying to demonstrate to Local Authorities the benificial aspects to the local community of sessions.

The important cultural contribution they make to freedom of expression and that there are no implications for safety of public disorder.

And all you two can talk about are 'punch ups'!


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 04:13 PM

I take it people remember the Peter Sellers session record, A Drop of the Hard Stuff. (The point of which was that in all the mayhem, the lads never missed a beat.)


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 03:43 PM

That was just a tale I got McGrath so I don't know how close it really did get. Most sessions I have been to have been trouble free fortunatly and I have only once witnessed violence involving a participant in a session or a folk club - not a bad record since lets say about 1980.

The pub where the fiddle and the guitar player had there fallout did have one arrest during a session night though. There was this chap who was very drunk and had come into the pub with his own supply of whiskey. Not only was he drinking it but he was tipping some into other peoples glasses and helping himself to others beer... The landlord called the police as he refused to leave the premises.

There was a tale of an incident in a party/session for musicians and their friends after a night in the pub during the Bangor Festival. Apparently some gate crashers arrived and were told they weren't welcome. One of the gate crashers hit the host and suddenly one of the musicians, someome from away, ?one of the Manchester crowd? who was a big chap got up, knocked the offender clean out with one punch and soon had order restored.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 02:54 PM

It nearly got far as a fiddle player and the guitar player nearly having a punch up outside the pub

Why can I never find sessions like that? I mean, you get people grousing about each other in the car home, or going off and drinking in the other bar, from time to time. But never anything lively.

Mind there was the fat man with the bones one time who took against me, and I was quite glad that never got beyond words, because he was about six stone heavier than me and a good few years younger.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 02:51 PM

Not a bad exchange from two people who are not here? Smiles.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 02:30 PM

Shambles, as I said, the problems (which were largely due to a need for some discipline and concentration) were addressed after I left (one of the tales I heard was that it nearly got far as a fiddle player and the guitar player nearly having a punch up outside the pub before they were resolved) so yes it kept going. As far as I know, the same old crowd still go there but they now use a PA - at least they had one about 1 yr ago when I last visted the pub. I did actually play along with them that night and it was a LOT better than it was at the time I left.

My answer existed - the session in Bangor - about 25 miles from me where I enjoyed the music but sadly public transport made that option impossible for me and there weren't enough reasonable session orientated musicians left in the immediate area to try and start anything else. I basically eneded up not going out to sessions but in a way I was happier.

I'm waffling on but the move to Norfolk has worked really well for me. The standard in the Norwich session is quite high and apart from me enjoying the session itself, it has given me reason to want to practice and to improve again.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 01:34 PM

You have my sympathy over that one. You did try before you left and possibly it would have been just better to just done the inevitable?

Is this one still going I wonder, for it did obviously satisfy those present, if not you?

I have no problem with excellence. I just view the participatory activities to be a valuable part of the road to it.

It is easier to inhibit most people than to encourage them. We have produced many fine musicians, due to their nature and egos, who it would always have been impossible to inhibit, now matter how hard you might try.

Maybe we have been encouraging the wrong personalities?

If the players you refer to, leave the sessions they consider not to be up to their standard and find or start others, the original one would have served its purpose, would it not?

I see the answer to be many sessions everywhere. These catering for all tastes and ablilties rather than trying to make a few sessions cater for all.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 12:53 PM

I'd be inclined to agree on the singing and instrumental although I do find a place for the occasional (maybe a singer or 2 taking 1 song) within an instrumental session. In my experience, if you get a lot of people wanting to sing and a lot of people wanting to play, and "us and them" situation can occur.

I too have dificulties with the control over standard issue and overall, I agree with the participation being the main point. I do however have the problem of not only (as I'm sure we all have) experiencing the one off nightmare player but times where sessions have got dragged down on a regular basis.

It is pretty near impossible to describe how bad the session I mentioned got and my issues were all over timing and wrong chords - as an example, take the Jig of Slurs which we played regularly, I couldn't get it through to one guitarist with only something like 35 years playing experience that the tune changes key...

As I mentioned before, I did become the "bastard" by trying to point some of these things out... I also mentioned that when I left, the same battles continued as someone else had the task to trying to hold the mess together and found it impossible. In other words - they had to sort the problem out simply to keep any form for public music going - it was that bad!

I guess if we are talking the odd bum note or mistake, I couldn't care less and I play enough of my own but if I see a session go the way that one did, I cringe.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 12:27 PM

I was not suggesting that all regular sessions should be anythings goes. I do not think for example that singing and instrumental sessions ever satisfy many folk.

It is a good idea of course to have it known what style of music is proposed and this solves many of the potential problems.

If someone comes to play a different style, they should not expect to change that sessions style but their music could be welcomed, at least for their first vist?

It is the more the idea of trying too hard to maintain a standard of play, within that session's style, I have a problem with. I don't think that is the point of participatory public activities. I think the point is participation, not excellence.

I am a great supporter of the traditional music summer schools and of encouraging all ages to make music. I do wish however that players from these schools could be asked to consider the effects of them arriving in considerable numbers and as an insular grouping, on existing sessions.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 11:46 AM

Seems like I'm a lone voice of dissent on the control issue...

I have Tuesday night for an Irish traditional night, I have the occasional Wednesday for a sing-around an occasional tune, I have Fridays for a Folk club and also a monthly Irish do which has singing and playing and there are probably lots of other things going.

When I was in Wales (at least when I had transport availible), I had Sunday night for an anything goes bash, Monday for either a folk club or a Welsh, Wednesday night for a mixed session, and Friday for a mostly Irish night.

I was/am quite happy taking each event for what they are/were and have felt no need to try to change the intentions of the nights.

If they all became anything goes, although they would have all had their own uniquness, I and many others would have lost out badly by loosing the oppertunity to attend and enjoy more specialist events and if as has been suggested, they became invite only, I'd never have found them.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 11:24 AM

Yes why couldn't I just say that?

Those that wish to control more than just getting folk in the same place and at the same time, I think are missing the point. For there really is nothing to take over, just to something to contribute to. You should always be prepared for the dynamics to be different.

Build it and they will come.

Then what happens will happen and you can either go with it or leave. All levels of expertise are needed, to encourage and be encouraged.

Those that are so accomplished that they cannot be encouraged or are not prepared to gently encourage others, except by displays of their personal brilliance should not attend but stick to performance.

It probably works better with people present as individuals rather than arriving in groups. A single newbie arriving will not be seen to present any serious threat to the established order (or disorder) and can be assimilated much easier than a group.

In my experience the best such events are one-offs, usually at festivals. This is due to their being comprised of musicians largely unknown to one another and taking place on neutral ground. The emphasis can then be on the music rather territorial disputes.

The challenge is to try and introduce thse elements into regular sessions, can it be done?


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 11:18 AM

I don't think Celtic Souls statement has anything to do with the type of playing I'm trying to address and is IMO destrutive to a session. Let's say we have 2 bodhrans badly beaten in any old fashion and say 2 guitars strumming different sets of chords that may or may not fit the music to slightly different rythms.

Whether one considers it a matter of ego or not, I can assure you the better players in a session will up and leave if there isn't some control excercised over the standard of playing.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: selby
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 11:10 AM

In support of Celtic souls statment. I have just returned home from picking up our eldest from the folkworks summer school the orginisation see's the session as an intregal part of the learning prossess and to listen to the youngsters who performed it was awesome that is why in my humble opinion it is important that we all ensure that sesions can continue for the sake of future generations and not get carried away with ego's and politics


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 10:11 AM

If you want it to be exclusionary, why not have it as an invite only, and do so in your livingroom? Or call it a concert instead of a session if you desire an audience?

The thing I have personally enjoyed more than anything is to be part of group music that involved all ranges of ability and experience. I was present for a session where a 5 year old child played his violin for the first time in public. He was not even close to the level of expertise of the most accomplished amongst the group, but they all applauded and supported him. I think that this will help inspire him to grow beyond where he is a lot more than to be excluded because he was not up to the level of those that are "established". I personally love that sort of community. Where all are welcome, and no one is judged as being unworthy of contribution.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 09:26 AM

It sees to me that while are differences in emphasis here, they really aren't that great. There's a balance between keeping to established ways that have worked, and allowing change, and a balance between musicians with different skills, and different approaches. But it's a balance, not a battle.

I haven't seen anything that I'd call an extreme position either way. But I have seen some people reacting to other people as if what they had said was extreme. When that sort of thing happens it normally means that what we are really doing is sounding off against someone else who isn't even here. Like shouting at the dog because the work mate who's been driving us mad isn't there to be shouted at.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 09:17 AM

To continue, what happened in one of the sessions I mentioned was I complained about standards slipping and got the "Oh this is fun, lighten up", "we are not professionals"... sort of things thrown at me and eventually I gave up and left.

When I left, someone else had the job of trying to hold the thing together and couldn't do it because of the problems I complained about and after more rows, it was finally agreed that a certain degree of competence was necessary simply for there to be some form of music and enjoyment for those participating.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 09:11 AM

Oh and Lady P, there is a big difference between a session having the one session "pain in the arse" and a session becoming a place where the problems of bad playing become part of the accepted normal.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 08:27 AM

Lady P, what I want to listen to is pretty well irrelevent unless it happens to be a session I started as I believe it is right to go along with the wishes of those who started and made an event successful rather than (as far to many people I know have done) turn it into what I would like it to be.

My preffered mix is mostly Irish Traditional with the OCCASIONAL song and the OCCASIONAL venture into other types of instrumental music. Where we seem to differ is that you seem to think that should give me the rights to muscle in on other people's sessions and play or sing something I might like to, perhaps on the grounds "that its no crime..." and I prefer to respect the wishes of the people running the session.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: lady penelope
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 08:16 AM

Dear Jon,

When happening upon a new session, it is only common sense to ask someone what is going on. Is this a formal session, if so, what's the state ( excuse the pun, unintended ) of play?

If the session is informal, then I see no crime in playing the odd morris tune in a session dominated by a different style, say Irish music for instance.

I also don't remember saying it was ok for ANYONE to highjack a session. That includes the people running it. If you run a public/ informal session, I assume that you are interested in what other people come up with, not just what you want to listen to.

If a musician or singer is having trouble with their contribution, be it bad timing, tuning, being too loud etcetera, a quiet word in their ear with maybe some advice to help them become more competant would be appropriate. If they can't take constructive critisism and persist in being musically unsociable then other threads have discussed at length how to either re-educate or remove the offender.

Other than that I'm afraid we'll just have to differ on the subject.

TTFN M'Lady P.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:41 AM

And here's the post I put in after Mike's. (This could get confusing...):

Good transport networks mean that people can move relatively large distances easily and cheaply.

Well, that may apply to aeroplanes, and car drivers. But public transport of any kind isn't too brilliant in this country anyway. And as the crackdown on drinking and driving builds up, and the accepted alcohol level for a driver goes down to pretty well zero, the attraction of getting your pubtime in within walking distance will grow.

So I don't think it's by any means clear that long-distance sessions in pubs are going to catch on. What I think is more likely is that in many places anyway, it's going to be relatively local. Walking distance of a few people, a fairly short drive for the others, with informal arrangements under which one person who isn't drinking that night picks up a few people.

Long-distance sessions, if they develop, with people coming in from far and near for eyeballing and jamming with internet friends, are more likely to be based in non-drinking establishments like coffee bars, I'd say.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:27 AM

With respect Cobble, I think there is enough to discuss here without any direct references to the Jug. Most of the issues raised here could be of concern to anyone involved in session anywhere.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Cobble
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:14 AM

I think this whole thing should now be settled by the landlord from the first mail that was posted on Mudcat telling people not to turn up at the Jug.

Cobble.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:07 AM

Rick, the need to ask for hush for a singer can be quite common. What tends to happen in some sessions is that the noise levels gradually increase when the musicians are playing and by the time a singer starts, the only people who can hear the singer starting are those very close to the singer.

The singer is quite rightly given silence when it is realised they have started but I don't think they realise that they often contribute to thier own problem by talking when people are playing and how difficult it can be for the musicians at times to compete with noise.

They make think that they are only talking quitely but it pushes the instruments up, then the chat gets louder so people can hear themselves talking... It can be a viscious circle. I wish when a singer gets the silence, they noted the level of noise when they started to sing (and in some cases couldn't even make themselves heard for more than a few yards) and realise that was what the musicans were having to cope with.

Jon


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: GUEST,mike Cahill
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 06:29 AM

I've posted almost the same message on the other thread, It will be interesting to see how the responses differ


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 06:24 AM

Equally unbearable is the off key "singer". I simply cant stand it, it makes my nerves bleed. In regards to former boxer, Joe Frazier, someone one asked, "Who ever told him he could sing"? another replied, "Who's going to tell him he cant"?

I never could stand Lester Flatts singing, he was well named. 'nuff to make the bottom of your feet hurt. There is no way to tell someone that they sing off key, so, just leave.


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Subject: RE: When a session gets Hijacked
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 06:19 AM

Rick, I'm afraid that there are people who just dont feel the pain that an out of tune instrument causes. If you simply cant stand that kind of noise, you are a prima donna. Like I said, I just leave. It's more diplomatic than using my wire cutters.


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