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OBITS and manners
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Subject: Tips for OBITS From: Jack the Sailor Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:08 AM Lets make a list of tips for writing and responding to Obits. The last OBIT for Aaliyah left bad taste in my mouth. 1. Don't criticize the Post. If you have more Info add it. If you have questions ask. If you want to whine about it, start your own thread, preferably with a title such as. WHINE: I don't like the OBIT for Mickey Mouse. 2. Don't Criticize the poster. Personal insults are just childish. 3. Never Never Never make blanket statements like. "I don't like the Way GUESTS do 'x'" or "THe Mudcat Clique is always doing 'y'." Sorry about the rant, But I had a vision of my funeral where everyone spends the whole day discussing the church parking lot. |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Clinton Hammond Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:35 AM One cannot control the wind... Especially the wind from other peoples mouths... |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:38 AM Some additional background-- One reason OBIT was chosen over RIP was that RIP gives too many wrong results when used as a search term, so although it was felt to be a great term to use, and many HAD been using it, it just wasn't practical as a filter-able prefix. The relevance there of course is that being able to search up by filter would be a great aid to researchers. Not only could people learn about the facts of the situation and the person's life-- there would be a repository that could always be added to later, to read the personal stories of people who had known them, as the stories emerged in the thread. And that brings us back to the main point that I think was the sticking point in a prior discussion of this-- AS THE STORIES EMERGED IN THE THREAD. See, it is often the sad task of someone nowadays to post promptly what little is known about someone's death, in this instant-news world. This is a simple notification, and it creates a place to hang what else becomes known or to add personal insights about the person or what occurred-- without having ten threads created, on the same death, when the news suddenly becomes broadly disseminated in the media, to inspire ten Catters to rush to the Create-a-Thread screen at once. Whatever additional information is posted is not really the responsibility of the person who was simply kind enough to open the one thread for others to use. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: SharonA Date: 31 Aug 01 - 12:11 PM Hear, hear, Jack! I love the idea of "WHINE" as a prefix – brilliant!! (*G* Maybe we should have a "FLAME" prefix just for the flamers!) I agree that "OBIT" threads are the place for information about the deceased and comments relative to the deceased (how the person's life or work affected you or someone you know), as well as expressions of grief or sorrow at the person's passing. I agree that they are NOT the place for criticisms of the posted obit, nor of its poster, nor of others whose posts contain information and/or comments about the deceased. A comment such as "I think you're all a bunch of tacky gossips" is in itself tacky and gossipy, and has no more place in an "OBIT" thread than it would have in an obituary published in a newspaper. But when such tacky comments do appear, as they inevitably will, how do you all suggest we react? Should we hush them as we would someone at a memorial service who tries to pick a fight with another attendee? Should we leap to the defense of the picked-upon poster and risk turning the thread into a melee? Should we take the standard ignore-the-flamer approach? Should we ask a joe-clone to remove comments that someone deems to be out of place in an "OBIT" thread? |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Clinton Hammond Date: 31 Aug 01 - 12:29 PM "Should we ask a joe-clone to remove comments that someone deems to be out of place in an "OBIT" thread?" I think OBIT threads are out of place at Mudcat... Can I ask a Joe Cloe to remove/ban them??? No... Ya gotta take the crunchy with the smooth... |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: SDShad Date: 31 Aug 01 - 12:46 PM Clinton-- I don't agree with you about OBIT threads (though admittedly, it's not been high on my List of Things to Think About lately), but "ya gotta take the crunchy with the smooth" is one of the best turns of phrase I've come across in a month of Sundays. I intend to steal it liberally. Chris |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Clinton Hammond Date: 31 Aug 01 - 12:53 PM I probably stole it from someone else already Chris! LOL!! Enjoy! |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Amos Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:13 PM This confirms my suspicions that the great landmarks of American cultural evolution in the 20th century were three: adding peanut butter and Mickey Mouse as universals, and deleting any framework of normal civility! :>) Not bad for only 100 years.
Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Jack the Sailor Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:14 PM There's no real solution. Personally, When I see whining, If I see it early enough, I may ask people to take it elsewhere, I see nothing wrong with OBIT threads but we are honouring no one's memory when we spend half the time grissling about what SHOULD be in the thread. I was thinking it might be nice to have this discussion once and point everyone who wants to talk about the relative merits of OBIT threads to it. I don't really expect this to happen but at least I've got it off my chest!
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: GUEST Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:33 PM Jack the Sailor: Amen. Good thought, good thread. Ditto on crunchy/smooth. On not controlling the wind, there might be a more applicable one. Marty Luther: "You cannot prevent the birds flying over your head, but you can keep them from building nests in your hair." CC |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Gareth Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:42 PM Clinton, You can not control the wind from other peoples mouths - Mouths ? The Golden rule should be if you can not say anything good about a recent dedeased - say nothing. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Clinton Hammond Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:50 PM There are NO golden rules... Besdies... what care the dead, for the affairs of men? |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Deda Date: 31 Aug 01 - 02:01 PM Warning -- poster is a Latin teacher. Nihil nisi bonum -- nothing but good (about the dead), an ancient custom. The word obit means "he/she has gone"("-it", as in transit, exit, and inITiate), plus ob-, which can be in contrast, against, finally, or because of. So obit is really a latin word which could loosely be translated as "because of {this} he (or she or it) has gone", or "he/she has gone in a final way". It's the exactly right name for these threads, and I agree that a little decorum and respect, both for the lamented and the lamenters, would be a good thing.
I'm a good old Latin teacher, and that's just what I am |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Jack the Sailor Date: 31 Aug 01 - 02:08 PM OBIT When I see "OBIT:" I assume that some has started a thread because they want to pay their respects to the recently deceased. On Mudcat, this cane lead to some very interesting discussions because most of our posters, even the trolls are fairly literate. And because often our members have personal memories of the person in question. I think "Discussion and celebration of the recently departed" would be a more accurate category, but "OBIT:" says enough and it is easier to read. Let's try not to let semantics get in the way of communication. |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Grab Date: 31 Aug 01 - 02:26 PM I'm not a great fan of "nil nisi bonum". It's surely perfectly legitimate to say (as in the Aaliyah thread) "She wasn't a folk/blues singer and I didn't like the music she did, so it doesn't really affect me, but it's a shame all those ppl died for such a stupid reason". Graham. |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Hollowfox Date: 31 Aug 01 - 03:00 PM Clinton, I hope the OBIT threads are never banned. Since I joined the 'Cat, I've been informed through this forum about the passing of dear friends, several of whom I hadn't seen in years, although they were often in my thoughts. But for those threads, I might not have found out in time to send condolences to friends and family. Going to a festival and finding out that a friend (that I only see at that festival) died six months earlier is more jarring than I want to deal with. Thanks to the 'Cat, I had six months to deal with visiting our old haunts without her. |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: katlaughing Date: 31 Aug 01 - 03:12 PM They won't get banned. Max doesn't favour any kind of censorship, which means joeclones will not remove offensive posts, either. In fact joeclones do not remove any kind of post unless it is a duplicate or, in rare cases, where the actual poster has requested that it be removed. Joe or Max or Jeff might delete a post if it is a personal attack. I would prefer "Passed On" to "Obit" but either one works. Sharon, I would suggest the answer to the flamers, if one feels the needs to respond, is simply to post "SOS" which, in this instance stands for "Same Old Shit" which I think should be a prefix used by whiners, flames, etc.:-) Deda, fun to see an old Latin teacher on here! I now treasure old Mrs. Worcester who fought so hard to get it into our heads in school.:-) Italia est non peninsula. (If I remember right, the first phrase we learned.) kat |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Amos Date: 31 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM Hey, she's not THAT old!!! (My god, am I still defending my sister after all these years???) I believe that the code of courtesy includes NOT broadcasting your complaints or ailments in a victimish tone. I think it is acceptable to broadcast them in a responsible way, as in "When are you assholes going to learn some manners?!!?", but not in the form "Oh, i amm sick and upset because of what you SAID to meeeee!". I really can't explain why except that the former strikes me as pro-life and the latter more pro-death. Maybe it should be a rule of the commons, the sharedness of this spacetime continuum that you must demonstrate that you are in there pitching for the best. Sorry for waxing.... Regards,
A |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: katlaughing Date: 31 Aug 01 - 03:34 PM THREAD DRIFT ALERT: Ahem, pardon me, should have quoted her correctly, "GOOD, old Latin teacher!" **BG** Ya know, Amos, I feel really badly about you pointing out that I'd got your sister's age wrong. Geez, didja ever think about how that mighta made ME feel? Huh? And, if you've still got sibling issues to work out about defending one another, well don't go blaming it on me or whining about it on the 'Cat, okay? Huh?! I mean think about the rest of us, willya? *VBG* with TIC! stillluvyakat {*_*} |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Lepus Rex Date: 31 Aug 01 - 03:39 PM Well, since I was the person fighting with GUEST,Shenandoah the most on the Aaliyah obit thread (OK, so I was the only one), I guess I'll say something... I do feel bad for helping to ruin an OBIT thread, and I apologise to anyone who was offended by the posts I directed at G,S. (No, not to you, G,S. You can still blow goats in Hell.) So, I promise not to fight on OBIT threads in the future. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Jack the Sailor Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:09 PM A lot of these folks have legit points. If you are reading an OBIT for the first time, certian thoughts may cross your mind. I say, refer people who raise them to a place where these points have been covered already. Hopefully, Amos, without calling them assholes. *g* ;) Lepus, I was not condemning what you did. Just trying to suggest another way. |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: SharonA Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:12 PM Blow goats? With the horns. too? That WOULD be hellish. Well, I didn't fight WITH "GUEST,Shenandoah", but only because he didn't answer my challenging remarks to him. If I offended anyone else besides "G,S", I apologize too. I join the pledge not to fight on OBIT threads. (I can always start another thread and fight there!) SharonA |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: GUEST,katspawlaughing666 Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:14 PM What amuses me in the obit threads are the people writing personal notes to the deceased. I've always figured that when people die, they aren't reading Mudcat anymore (as if most of them were reading it when they were alive). |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Lepus Rex Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:15 PM Jack, oh, I know. I really did feel bad about it since last night, though. OBITs aren't the place for that sort of thing. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: GUEST Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:18 PM Methinks some here protest too much. Seems that the self-righteously offended here seem to have overlooked the fact that celebrity gossip being passed off as an OBIT is what offended Shenandoah to begin with... That can be pretty offensive too, no? Let's not forget, there was a certain amount of agreement with some of what Shenandoah said in the Aaliyah thread. I just read through the entire thread, and I certainly didn't see any information that I hadn't heard in the last few nights on Entertainment Tonight. In other words, the thread here pretty much *is* mirroring the media frenzy/celeb gossip aspect of the news story. Biographical information of the sort one finds in conventional obits does seem to be lacking in the Mudcat OBIT thread as much as it is in the media.
C'mon...if it really *is* just gossip about a celeb death people are interested in discussing, why not be honest enough with yourselves to admit it? And turn it into a BS thread, which is what it really is anyway. |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:21 PM Besides SOS, we had another effective way of indicating displeasure that was kinda nifty, because it was nonverbal and hard to flame back at: : - ( *G* ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:36 PM The following is my own opinion, not Mudcat policy. Some of us still hold to the archaic idea that this should be a folk music forum. We may seem to be outnumbered at times, but I think we still have a right to express our crotchety, outdated complaints. It may seem pleasant and polite for us to confine our complaints to "whine" threads - but confining complaints to certain threads is almost as restrictive as banning complaints altogether. I figure that if you post something in an open forum, you have to accept the fact that others have a right to disagree with you - and you don't have a right to control the way they express their disagreement. If you don't like having people disagree with you, maybe you shouldn't post what you were thinking of posting. We try to control the worst of the flames, especially if they are threats or personal attacks, but we are also careful to limit editing and deletions to a minimum. Somebody sent me a letter last week and said he was entertained by my "annual outbursts" against prayer and healing threads. I guess I have to plead guilty - I can be patient for about a year, and then I have to say something. Maybe the writer will have to add non-folk obituaries to the list next year. From a personal standpoint, I wasn't interested in the obituary on Aaliyah, or whatever her name is. I take it that her "Rhythm and Blues" music was more pop than blues. Still, the posting of her obituary wasn't enough to garner a complaint from me. We've seen much worse here. I'm bored to tears by threads that are filled with platitudes - be they healing requests, prayer threads, or obituaries. If the threads have information that's of interest to folk musicians, then I usually find such threads interesting. So, if somebody's going to start an obituary thread, I think the first thing they should post is information about the dead person's life and death. We have some people here who appear to be very impressed by their own words, and their goal here seems to be to post as many words as possible (intelligent verbiage not required). They copy-paste long lists of things that somebody else copy-pasted to them. They start multiple threads on the most inane topics. The start answer-threads instead of posting to the original thread, and they start copycat threads when they see that a thread has received a number of replies. Sometimes, they even start threads to call attention to other threads they've posted. I suppose it might be polite to simply ignore such logorrhea, but there's so much of it here that it's impossible to ignore it. I certainly don't advocate the nastiness of the flamers, but maybe all this wordiness calls for some creative curmudgeonry. I think that if I start a thread, I need to realize that I risk being criticized. People will usually leave others alone about whatever they choose to say in most individual messages, but starting threads is another matter. If I find that I frequently get negative reactions to the threads you start, maybe that's a sign that I might want to think a little longer before hitting that "create new thread" button. Another thing I've noticed - it seems that the majority of threads are started by a small minority of Mudcatters. Is this a good thing? If I create more than a couple of threads a week, could it be that I'm starting too many? OK, so the above is my personal opinion, not Mudcat policy. I've learned my lesson - I won't post it in the FAQ. However, I still insist that I do have a right to express my opinion and maybe be just a bit grumpy at times. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Jack the Sailor Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:51 PM GUEST, Have you read this thread? The point is that an OBIT thread is not the place to whine about it. It is inconsiderate to assume that Fiolar intended celibrity gossip and it is short sighted to assume that gossip will come out of a post when one is started. And you, and every other mudcatter has the option to improve the thread by providing better information etc. A much better approach than complaining. Also I, like many others, have not been following the coverage. I also am more interested in a mudcatter's take on the young lady's death than CNN's. GUEST you have done the right thing by taking your complaints to this thread. Thank you. If you are calling ME righteously offended when all I have done is politely asked for some consideration. You need to work on your banter. Would you go to a funeral and openly accuse the other mourners of gossip? |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: GUEST Date: 31 Aug 01 - 05:05 PM Look Jack the Sailor, To compare the Mudcat Forum OBIT threads to an actual funeral is pretty offensive, considering the disrespect we see being expressed about and to others in this forum every day. This is a discussion forum, and the etiquette and manners of a discussion forum, even when discussing a person's death, are totally different than the etiquette and manners expected at a funeral. This has got to be one of the most disingenuous arguments I've ever seen here. My point is similar to that of Joe's--if you start a thread labelled "OBIT" and then fail to include any information about the person or commonly found in an obituary, you leave yourself open to criticism by others. Especially when it appears to some that you aren't doing anything more than starting a celebrity gossip thread, and trying to pass it off as something truly sacred. Bullshit is what I says to that. |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: GUEST Date: 31 Aug 01 - 05:24 PM I still am not getting the "gossip" term being used. If the thread had started "Psssst...did you hear about that singer Aaliyah? You know, she sang that song? I heard she died in an awful plane crash! I think I heard it on NPR while I was ironing. A plane crash I think. Isn't that so terrible?" That's gossip. I've seen nothing like that anyt threads. |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 31 Aug 01 - 06:28 PM I'm surprised Joe didn't say it, so I'll have to. The best way to deal with a flame is to leave it alone. We've been through this. The best way to deal with a thread we're not interested in is to read another thread. Rich |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:01 PM There were 8 posts, including a link to a news article concerning her death and half of those would probably not even made it had the thread not been turned into a pissing contest right out of the gate and thus kept at the top of the forum. That was hardly more attention than was paid to the passing of John Hartford, both in the original Rip thread and the subsequent upsurge in lyric requests et.al. When Doc Watson goes to his reward (God forbid it happens too soon), I doubt any thread not mentioning him in the title will stay up for more than a day. A brief mention of a singer seemed insignificant by one folkier-than-thou individual is hardly a threat to the focus of this forum Rich |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:01 PM Ah, but Joe wouldn't come to the same conclusion. I hate flamers and I wish Mudcatters would have the discipline to refuse to respond to them. Trivial threads like celebrity obituaries are another matter - I've tried to ignore them, and they haven't gone away. Flamers usually act by themselves - if you ignore them, they go away. Posters of trivialities travel in packs, and they feed each other and crowd out everything else - they don't care if others ignore them. So, every once in a while, I play curmudgeon and speak out against Mudcat Mindlessness; and get accused of being a flamer or troll myself. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: GUEST,Shenandoah Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:40 PM I am so touched by the genuine outpouring of grief over this beautiful young woman's tragic death. Especially among the many Mudcatters who knew her so well. What does "Diana" stand for? Died in a nasty accident. Now, where did I leave this week's copy of People magazine anyway?
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Lepus Rex Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:54 PM I love you, GUEST,Shenandoah. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: catspaw49 Date: 31 Aug 01 - 09:26 PM Obits and Manners huh? How about Gonads and Strife Spaw |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: GUEST,PAH Date: 31 Aug 01 - 09:55 PM This is why people leave Mudcat and don't come back. It's not the fact that there are trivial threads, they are easily ignored. It is the folks around here who feel they have the right to decide what we should all think. The ones who feel that because what's in a given thread doesn't interest them (i.e. prayer themes or OBITs) then they shouldn't interest ANY of us. To me, the "thread nazis" will be a lot more likely to drive someone away than someone else's taste in threads. It's really sad....... PAH |
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Subject: RE: OBITS and manners From: Cappuccino Date: 01 Sep 01 - 04:25 AM I hope it won't delay any arguments if I put in a mention of Obituary language. While writing for newspapers some years ago, I was taught the Times code for obituary language, and the common phrases that the great newspaper uses:- "He did not suffer fools gladly" - he was a bad-tempered old sod. "He enjoyed the good things in life" - he was a drunk "He lived life to the full" - he was a drunk and an adulterer as well. Ah, I feel a new thread coming on... Ian B |
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