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Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)

DigiTrad:
A PRESENT FROM THE GENTLEMEN
ENGLAND HAS TAKEN ME
ENGLAND SWINGS
GENTLEMEN-RANKERS
OAK, ASH, AND THORN
THE BASTARD KING OF ENGLAND
THE FRENCH WARS
THE LADIES
THE SONG OF THE BANJO
THE YOUNG BRITISH SOLDIER
WHEN 'OMER SMOTE 'IS BLOOMIN' LYRE


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Mark Cohen 10 Sep 01 - 02:42 AM
Mark Cohen 10 Sep 01 - 02:47 AM
nutty 10 Sep 01 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,micca at work. 10 Sep 01 - 04:47 AM
Ringer 10 Sep 01 - 05:18 AM
The Walrus at work 10 Sep 01 - 08:19 AM
Malcolm Douglas 10 Sep 01 - 10:06 AM
Bill D 10 Sep 01 - 12:40 PM
The Walrus at work 10 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM
Mark Cohen 10 Sep 01 - 01:41 PM
Peg 10 Sep 01 - 10:11 PM
Mark Cohen 10 Sep 01 - 10:56 PM
Bob Bolton 10 Sep 01 - 11:22 PM
Steve Parkes 11 Sep 01 - 03:37 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 11 Sep 01 - 04:54 AM
IanC 11 Sep 01 - 05:17 AM
Steve Parkes 11 Sep 01 - 05:20 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 11 Sep 01 - 05:25 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 11 Sep 01 - 05:26 AM
Ella who is Sooze 11 Sep 01 - 05:29 AM
Steve Parkes 11 Sep 01 - 07:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Sep 01 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,susanc 04 Sep 10 - 04:42 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 04 Sep 10 - 06:05 PM
Reinhard 04 Sep 10 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,Susanc 05 Sep 10 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Susanc 05 Sep 10 - 01:35 PM
Joe Offer 05 Sep 10 - 06:19 PM
Reinhard 06 Sep 10 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 06 Sep 10 - 02:40 AM
GUEST,susanc 12 Sep 10 - 03:26 PM
Artful Codger 13 Sep 10 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 13 Sep 10 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 13 Sep 10 - 08:41 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 13 Sep 10 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Susanc 17 Sep 10 - 12:20 AM
GUEST 17 Sep 10 - 02:38 AM
open mike 17 Sep 10 - 01:34 PM
Edthefolkie 17 Sep 10 - 07:00 PM
Artful Codger 18 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Susanc 18 Sep 10 - 08:43 PM
GUEST,susanc 18 Sep 10 - 08:49 PM
GUEST,susanc 18 Sep 10 - 08:55 PM
Jeri 18 Sep 10 - 09:11 PM
ollaimh 18 Sep 10 - 09:45 PM
Sandra in Sydney 19 Sep 10 - 12:53 AM
Reinhard 19 Sep 10 - 02:33 AM
GUEST,susanc 21 Sep 10 - 07:44 PM
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Subject: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 02:42 AM

I just learned from the Digital Tradition that the words to the song Oak, Ash & Thorn (not to be confused with Mudcatter Dave Swan's group of the same name) were written by Rudyard Kipling. I'd always assumed they were by Jeremy's former partner, Trad. Does anyone have any info on specific references in the song? The DT says it was the introduction to Kipling's "Puck of Pook's Hill"--I've heard about that collection but am unfamiliar with it.

My guess would be that the Kipling poem might be loosely based on some old verse referring to the ancient tree-alphabet described by Robert Graves in "The White Goddess"...or something like that. But maybe somebody knows the real story.

Also, the chorus says "all on a midsummer's morn", but then one verse says "conjuring summer in", which should occur at the solstice, not at midsummer day. "Now is the sun come up from the South" does sound like midsummer, since at the solstice the sun is farthest south, and is coming "up from the South" 6 1/2 weeks later, at midsummer. Or do I have that all wrong? (To alliteratively paraphrase the famous Dr. "Bones" McCoy, "I'm a doctor, dammit, not a Druid!")

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 02:47 AM

No, wait a minute: at the summer solstice in the Northern Hemisphere, the sun is farthest North. (Guess I'm not an astronomer either...) Which makes "Now is the sun come up from the South" even more puzzling. To me, at least. Or was Kipling even less of an astronomer than I?

M


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: nutty
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 03:38 AM

Written in 1908, Puck of Pooks Hill was a Childrens Story. It was a figment of Kiplings imagination and not intended to be factual ... by todays standards it would probably be considered to be quite badly written and I believe such narratives were primarily responsible for Kipling, at the time, being considered a "writer of verse" rather than a "poet"


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: GUEST,micca at work.
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 04:47 AM

Mark, your guess about Graves is fairly accurate ,I think, as the three trees mentioned are part of the "Beth-Luis-Nion" alphabet of the trees, used in Druidic circles, but also these trees are of particular magical significance to many pagans as they are regarded as having magical powers, esp. in combination, a staff made from the 3 woods being very powerful. As for Kiplings uses, I know at least a few Pagans who think the chant in "Puck of Pooks Hill" is an attempt by Kipling to reproduce a " spell" he learned either from the Roma, or from elsewhere as they claim that much of the poem follows a "known spell"(cf. Shakespeare ,Macbeth, where it is surmised that the list of ingredients in the witches spell is a Mnemonic for the REAL list)
The "sun coming up from the south" probably refers to the gradual move north to its most northerly reach at mid summer here in the UK(Kipling lived in Sussex, in the area described in Puck). "Conjuring summer in" is usually done on Mayday in that area by " Jack in the green " processing through the town and being ritually "killed " and dismantlked and his leaves carried home by the spectators, to release the spirit of Summer, and take it home to sustain through the year, the leaves should be burned on Halloween to allow the dying Summer to go to its rest to be reborn next Mayday.
If you want a copy of "Puck" I could probably find you one fairly cheap from a 2nd hand bookshop. PM me.


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Ringer
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 05:18 AM

Puck "badly written"? Not so far as I'm concerned: I enjoyed & still enjoy both it & its companion Rewards and Faries". "Oak & ash & thorn" occurs as an oath in the song Jack O'Ryan (Glasgerion or w.h.y.), so is probably ancient.


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Subject: Lyr Add: A TREE SONG (Rudyard Kipling)
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 08:19 AM

To those that don't know it, here is Kipling's verse: ^^^ A Tree Song
(A. D. 1200)

A TREE SONG
(Rudyard Kipling)

Of all the trees that grow so fair,
Old England to adorn,
Greater are none beneath the Sun,
Than Oak, and Ash, and Thorn.
Sing Oak, and Ash, and Thorn, good sirs,
(All of a Midsummer morn!)
Surely we sing no little thing,
In Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!

Oak of the Clay lived many a day,
Or ever Aeneas began.
Ash of the Loam was a lady at home,
When Brut was an outlaw man.
Thorn of the Down saw New Troy Town
(From which was London born);
Witness hereby the ancientry
Of Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!

Yew that is old in churchyard-mould,
He breedeth a mighty bow.
Alder for shoes do wise men choose,
And beech for cups also.
But when ye have killed, and your bowl is spilled,
And your shoes are clean outworn,
Back ye must speed for all that ye need,
To Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!

Ellum she hateth mankind, and waiteth
Till every gust be laid,
To drop a limb on the head of him
That anyway trusts her shade:
But whether a lad be sober or sad,
Or mellow with ale from the horn,
He will take no wrong when he lieth along
'Neath Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!

Oh, do not tell the Priest our plight,
Or he would call it a sin;
But--we have been out in the woods all night,
A-conjuring Summer in!
And we bring you news by word of mouth-
Good news for cattle and corn--

Now is the Sun come up from the South,
With Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!

Sing Oak, and Ash, and Thorn, good sirs
(All of a Midsummer morn):
England shall bide till Judgment Tide,
By Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!


It fits (just) to the tune to "Seven Joys of Mary"

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 10:06 AM

The song is already in the DT, as Mark indicated, with chords for the tune to which Peter Bellamy set Kipling's verses, and which is the only tune I have heard it sung to.  Bellamy's tune is given in abc and miditext formats in this thread:  Help: kipling - A Tree Song

Kipling was well aware of the folkloric background (and had almost certainly read The Golden Bough), but there is no evidence that he was "adapting" some unknown earlier text, and I fear that the suggestion that it's a modified "spell" is just the kind of wishful thinking that has bedevilled folklore studies over the years, and which makes it so hard to take many Neo-Pagans seriously.  Graves has many interesting things to say about trees, but he should not be read uncritically; The White Goddess is a problematic mix of genuine scholarship and pure fantasy.  There's really no need to posit some complicated "Celtic Tree Alphabet" connection; the tree references are all to folkloric beliefs common throughout Britain.

I have always liked Puck of Pook's Hill, and that Kipling was an adept and knowledgable versifier is clearly demonstrated by the fact that so many people imagine his work to be older than it really is, or that he must have based it on somebody else's.  Sometimes, after all, a tree is just a tree. %)


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 12:40 PM

I was intrigued that a few of the words posted by Walrus are 'slightly' different than I had been singig....so I went surfing...and LO!...the WWW delivers again! Within 5 minutes I had this site and a download of the entire text of Puck in Adobe PDF format, unzipped, and had clicked on "A Tree Song" and read the poem as written....and as Walrus said. *smile*...I do love the cyber-life! (They have The Jungle Book and Plain Tales from the Hills too...while other sites have some other works...)


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM

Bill,

I clipped the words from "The Poetry Lover's page" at http://www.poetryloverspage.com/ (sorry, I don't know how to do "blickies") it's a site worth visiting, but don't believe that bit about the Kipling being complete (the Epitaphs are missing).

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 01:41 PM

Exactly the information I'd hoped for...thanks to all! And now that the sun has reached the mid-Pacific, I can see that "the sun come up from the South" is perfectly sensible. I guess I had the world turned upside down. (Now there's a song for another thread...)

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Peg
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 10:11 PM

I have heard summer solstice referred to as "midsummer" before; in fact my coven calls out solstice rites "Midsummer."

Just as winter solstice is sometimes referred to as "midwinter." (as in, In the Bleak Midwinter)

Not sure why; but there are plenty of examples of it in folklore, myth and historical texts. Ronald Hutton mentions it in his books on various English festivals and rites.

Peg (a serious Neo-Pagan)


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 10:56 PM

Thanks, Peg, I had suspected that but wasn't sure. Still don't understand why. But tell me, if two Neo-Pagans have an argument, can it turn into a Neo-Fight? (sorry)

Aloha,
Mark (seriously avoiding seriousness whenever possible)


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 11:22 PM

G'day Mark,

The problem is that people try to squeeze the astronomical / solar event into a significant position ... and it doesn't quite fit. The summer solstice is the longest day - so you would think it is the hottest ... midsummer - but in the real world it is not. there is a thermal inertia or hysteresis, which means the hottest day is a few weeks later.

After finding the solstice didn't work as midseason, they tried the other significant position - the start of the season ... but that would need a 6½ weeks lag - and it is not that much, so it still doesn't work (but that's what the northern hemisphere tends to stay with).

Here in Australia, the scientists who were the colonial administrators (the first Governors were Royal Navy officers, trained in astronomy, meteorology ... and sailing and ballistics) got very modern and radical - they looked at the actual weather. That's why our (southern) summer starts 1 December and our winter starts 1 June.

This is much closer to the actual weather cycle ... but our weather pattern is somewhat different in its dynamics, since we have a completely open circumpolar ocean and this allows strong currents and winds to circle the (much larger) South Pole. The actual level of hysteresis may be a bit different in Europe and America (and, of course, completely different again in tropical Hawaii).

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 03:37 AM

Re Kipling's sources: I find it both amusing and annoying that there are always people who can't accept that anyone can make up a story or a poem; they always have to find an earlier source it must have been pinched from. I know RK was familiar with folklore and traditional ballads: it's obvious from some of his material and the styles he pastiches (is that a verb?!). But to say he wasn't creative enough to invent something and make it look trad shows a lack of understanding of people in general, not just writers and poets.

There--rant over!

I always wondered, but never got round to finding out, about oak ash & thorn: there's an Old English letter "ash"--the "AE" ligature, and another "thorn"--the "th" sound that gets misread as "y", as in "ye Olde Tea-Shoppe"--but I don't know whether there's a conection. There's another ligature "OE", which I don't know the name of, but I'm pretty sure it's not "oak".

Steve


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:54 AM

Old English for 'Oak' is 'ac'. The 'aesc' and 'thorn' letters seem to be hangovers from a Runic script (in fact, 'thorn' is still written the same way - you just ask Skarpi).

Until the c19th, Welsh had ligatures and unique letters which disappeared for expediency when written (read: printed) Welsh became more common. This is the reason modern Welsh has the peculiar-looking compound elements like 'll', 'ff' and 'dd' which are actually 'letters' in their own right.

I don't think the 'oe' ligature has a name, as it has no equivalent in Runic script systems... don't know why that is...


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: IanC
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:17 AM

In English (as opposed to Danish, Swedish and Norwegian runes) the "alphabet" is called the FUTHARC (the TH should be a thorn). The A is called AC.

:-)
Ian

BTW bet you don't know where the best 7-8th century Anglo Saxon runic inscription is! ;-)!


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:20 AM

Let's all wait and see how long it takes before you crack and tell us anyway, Ian!


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:25 AM

I don't know about Anglo-Saxon, but on what was an latar-rail in what was Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, there's a runic inscription which reads 'Hagar was here' or something like that...


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:26 AM

oops that's 'altar-rail'. A latar-rail is what happens between Milton Keynes and Euston every morning.


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:29 AM

oooo spoooky!

Went to a session last night... and someone sang this song.....

never heard of it til yesterday!


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:30 AM

Synchronicity strikes again!


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Subject: RE: 'Oak, Ash & Thorn' (the song) question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:47 AM

I think that the suggestion that "... by todays standards it would probably be considered to be quite badly written", if referring to Kiling's prose anyway, is a bit wide of the mark.

it were true it would just reflect badly on "today's standards", but I think most critics would rate Kipling's prose style very highly even today.

The whole question of the relation between "verse" and poetry" is a convoluted one. Personally I think that the way that the terms ever have been confused the way they have has been a seriously damaging mistake.

I prefer to see it this way: there is prose, of various sorts, and there is verse of various sorts, and they overlap. Whether you call certain types of writing a kind of free verse or a kind of prose is a purely arbitrary distinction.

Poetry is what you get when the language and the thought attain a certain level of power, and it can happen in prose or in verse.

And Kipling's prose and verse does attain that level not infrequently.

All this has nothing to do with the vexed question of Kipling's views about all kinds of other things.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
From: GUEST,susanc
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:42 PM

Does anyone know what recordings by Peter Bellamy "The Tree Song" and "Sir Richard's Song" are on? They are on a collection but it costs almost $400 so that's out.

Thanks very much.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:05 PM

Eek! Four Hundred dollars? I got mine utterly freebie through monstrous illegal means (no children or animals were hurt I hasten to add).


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Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
From: Reinhard
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:26 PM

A re-recording of Sir Richard's Song (and five other songs from Oak, Ash & Thorn) is on the Fellside double CD Mr Bellamy, Mr Kipling & The Tradition for £12 from Fellside or as MP3 for $15.98 from Amazon.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
From: GUEST,Susanc
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 01:12 PM

Crow Sister,

$395 and it's used! Glad you wrangled a copy.

Richard, thanks so much for the info. I'm going to look into the cds.
I have dialup so mp3s wouldn't be good for me unless I leave it on for days.

Really appreciate your answers.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
From: GUEST,Susanc
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 01:35 PM

Just checked Amazon and the boxed set is now $427.88! Wonder if my looking at it raised the price.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 06:19 PM

Gee, I don't think I'd pay astronomical prices for Peter Bellamy recordings. Topic and Fellside have reissued a number of Peter Bellamy's albums, and I'll betcha they'll reissue more.

Here's what I see available:
  • Mr Bellamy, Mr Kipling, & The Tradition
  • The Fox Jumps Over The Parson's Gate
  • Both Sides Then
  • Fair Annie & Peter Bellamy (double album)

    -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: Reinhard
    Date: 06 Sep 10 - 12:17 AM

    Here's what is available (cont'd):

    • Fair England's Shore (double CD with Bellamy's first three albums, Mainly Norfolk, Fair England's Shore, The Fox Jumps Over The Parson's Gate)

    I wouldn't be very surprised (but very pleased!) of Fellside reissues the Kipling albums in about a year to commemorate the 20th anniversary of Bellamy's death.


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
    Date: 06 Sep 10 - 02:40 AM

    We're unlikely to to see either Oak, Ash & Thorn or Merlin's Isle of Gramarye on CD any time soon - they are languishing somewhere in the vaults of the Vivendi Megacorp who are apparently not interested in either reissuing them or licencing them (without silly money changing hands). However, in the meantime... The Oak, Ash & Thorn Project


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: GUEST,susanc
    Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:26 PM

    Thanks everyone. I'll keep an eye out for re-releases of of the albums.


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: Artful Codger
    Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:42 AM

    Both songs are on the first CD of the 3-CD collection Wake the Vaulted Echoes, for which I paid less than $40, though this was a few years ago. I hope this isn't the box set you're referring to!

    Both songs were first released on Bellamy's Oak, Ash and Thorn (1970). "A Tree Song" was performed with the other members of The Young Tradition, Royston Wood and Heather Wood. Bellamy rereleased some or all of these songs in his private cassette Puck's Songs (1974); since both songs were taken from Kipling's "Puck at Pook's Hill," it's a good bet they were both included.

    If you only need the tune for "A Tree Song," check out YouTube, for instance:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYJimQx2W1M
    You might check whether Heather Wood has included this song on any of her albums, possibly with a Bellamy cut.

    The recording of "Sir Richard's Song" on Wake was taken from a session for Pennine Radio (1986). You can hear Debra Cowan sing the song on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFhwaMBHF4I . It's a fine rendition, but, if I may say, too sweet and homogenous; Bellamy captured the bitter spirit of Kipling's poem perfectly, and his guitar part nearly holds a dialog with the voice, so to my ears any other rendition pales in comparison. Bellamy kept it in his repertoire throughout his career. He said the tune was patterned after that of the Scots ballad "The Gardener Child."


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
    Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:05 AM

    For the curious, you can download Peter Bellamy's Oak Ash & Thorn album HERE; hopefully it'll be in better nick than the one I passed on to CS some time ago. And for a comprehensive blog post on Merlin's Isle of Gramarye see HERE.


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
    Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:41 AM

    hopefully it'll be in better nick than the one I passed on to CS some time ago

    Just had a listen; it isn't - but what the hell? Go fill your boots! God knows the music remains in its timeless splendour and it's the only chance many will ever get to hear one of the classics of the revival. In truth, they don't make 'em like that anymore...


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
    Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:48 AM

    Some albums sound better for a bit of crackle. Just like some books are better with yellow pages. And I don't think Bellamy suffers any. I used to collect 2nd hand records all the time. My favourite rough LP is a tatty old pressing of After the Goldrush, don't think I could cope with hearing it on shiny CD now.


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: GUEST,Susanc
    Date: 17 Sep 10 - 12:20 AM

    Artful Codger,

    Yes it is the box set which is selling for over four-hundred dollars!
    What a great buy you got at $40.00. I hadn't even heard of it until a few weeks ago when going through Bellamy's catalog.

    Thanks to all of you for the great info.


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: GUEST
    Date: 17 Sep 10 - 02:38 AM

    Susan - only two days left on eBay for this copy...


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: open mike
    Date: 17 Sep 10 - 01:34 PM

    also discussed here:
    http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=20317#210954
    Tune Req: Tree Song / Oak, Ash and Thorn (Kipling)


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: Edthefolkie
    Date: 17 Sep 10 - 07:00 PM

    Susanc, was the $400 set on Ebay? Or was that a non negotiable price?

    If so I think I had better put my copy (and the various Peter and YT vinyl albums) in a nitrogen-filled safe.

    Seriously, that is absolutely crazy. I wonder if Heather Wood knows about this? Royston and Peter must be laughing their socks off - if they wear them "Over There In Paradise" (© Steve Ashley™)


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: Artful Codger
    Date: 18 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM

    TM? Can we expect Steve Ashley action figures, bobble heads and sneakers soon?


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: GUEST,Susanc
    Date: 18 Sep 10 - 08:43 PM

    I just bid on eBay but I guess someone put in a maximum bid and my bids are too low. Can't afford to go high, but thanks GUEST for the tip. Will check in with eBay and Amazon peridically.


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: GUEST,susanc
    Date: 18 Sep 10 - 08:49 PM

    Edthefolkie,

    This was a used copy by an Amazon seller. Maybe it's negotiable but they would have to come down to Earth from whatever planet they are on. I hope I'm posting correctly. I really don't know how to answer specific posters. Maybe this one is ok but my stuff is all over the place. Disordered mind, etc.


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: GUEST,susanc
    Date: 18 Sep 10 - 08:55 PM

    I can download the whole album for free? With my dialup? Is the site ok to put my info on? Is there a fee for joining? Do I just download to my computer (which is iffy) or mp3?

    Thanks for everyone's help.

    susan


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: Jeri
    Date: 18 Sep 10 - 09:11 PM

    This one on Ebay is going for less, with a bit less than 19 hours left. The booklet doesn't look as detailed and I don't know if the DVD/not sound part of it is included, but it has your song.


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: ollaimh
    Date: 18 Sep 10 - 09:45 PM

    with books and records on ebay i have found a hotly contested bidding war will go once or twice on a rare item, even a third time, but then the prices come back to earth, so keep looking.

    i lost out on one of my favourite records(kiss in the morning early by mick hanly). it went fot something unbelievable like 150 bucks, then on the next time no one but me bid and i got it for $10. so patience.

    the rabid bidders get their item then there are often no others willing to run upm the price.

    as for the tree alphabet. graves was a fabulously creative writer of great insight but there is little real eveidence that the tree alphabet was anything but a noe pagan creation. a misunderstanding of ogham. few of the "scholars" of neo paganism who freely use gaelic words and phrases, actually read or speck gaelic, especially they miss thre grammar--which is very different from english. i've seen arguments that they misunderstand the ogham writing both in its age and the meaning of the strokes it is made up from, to really have achance of understanding them you need the gaelic, or cymric as the case may be.

    people are free to make up their own religion but why do so many have to base it on other peoples cultures? its not respectfull to miss use others cultures unless you acknowledge it. i have way too often met neo pagans with absurd translations of gaelic. and they are often hostile to any help.

    so i don't think the tree alphabet has anything to do with traditional usuage. its alglo neo paganism.


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: Sandra in Sydney
    Date: 19 Sep 10 - 12:53 AM

    lucky me, I've got one of those US$400 Bellamy sets!

    I paid AUD$56 for it sometime after 2000. It comes with a 72 page booklet. I never looked at the CD-Rom section, I might do so later today.

    I also own a rare Australian LP that could sell for up to %1500 new some years back, tho mine is used.

    sandra (potentially rich)


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: Reinhard
    Date: 19 Sep 10 - 02:33 AM

    Sandra, the CD-ROM section is available online.


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    Subject: RE: Origin: Oak, Ash and Thorn / Tree Song (Kipling)
    From: GUEST,susanc
    Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:44 PM

    Well, it went for about $45 plus shipping. I think there was no booklet or cd-rom. It was just in plastic covers. Still, the music is there.


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