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Tune Req: Tree Song / Oak, Ash and Thorn (Kipling)

DigiTrad:
AROUND ME BRAVE BOYS
BRISK YOUNG WIDOW
NOSTRADAMUS
OAK, ASH, AND THORN
On Board a 98
THE BARLEY AND THE RYE
THE GOOD LUCK SHIP
THE OLD SONGS
WE HAVE FED OUR SEA FOR A THOUSAND YEARS


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MMario 12 Apr 00 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,john henry 12 Apr 00 - 05:14 PM
MMario 12 Apr 00 - 05:16 PM
Jeri 12 Apr 00 - 05:19 PM
MMario 12 Apr 00 - 05:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Apr 00 - 07:09 PM
MMario 12 Apr 00 - 10:02 PM
John in Brisbane 12 Apr 00 - 10:13 PM
MMario 12 Apr 00 - 10:20 PM
MMario 13 Apr 00 - 02:55 PM
Bill D 13 Apr 00 - 05:42 PM
MMario 13 Apr 00 - 06:26 PM
Lanfranc 13 Apr 00 - 06:44 PM
MMario 13 Apr 00 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,walrus 14 Apr 00 - 09:00 AM
GUEST 30 Dec 07 - 09:07 AM
Charley Noble 01 Jan 08 - 12:31 PM
Malcolm Douglas 01 Jan 08 - 12:49 PM
Jim Dixon 03 Jun 09 - 12:53 AM
Jack Campin 03 Jun 09 - 06:01 AM
Jack Blandiver 03 Jun 09 - 07:02 AM
Barry Finn 14 Jul 09 - 01:21 AM
bseed(charleskratz) 14 Jul 09 - 02:29 AM
Jack Blandiver 14 Jul 09 - 04:57 AM
GUEST,MtheGM 18 Aug 09 - 02:04 AM
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Subject: kipling - A Tree Song
From: MMario
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 04:48 PM

Does anyone have any suggestion for traditional or public domain tunes for this?


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: GUEST,john henry
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 05:14 PM

sorry, but can you make your request a bit clearer please?

thanks

john


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: MMario
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 05:16 PM

Kipling's "A tree song" is usually sung to a (copyrighted) tune by Peter Bellamy. I am asking if anyone knows of a traditional or public domain tune that is comfortable and appropriate to use with the lyrics (it's a famous poem, look it up just about anywhere).

As stated above.


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 05:19 PM

MMario, you don't mean OAK, ASH, AND THORN, do you? If so, I can write out a MIDI (for you and the DT) if no one beats me to it.


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: MMario
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 05:29 PM

*I've lost this posting three times now....so if I sound peeved, it's at me*

Very slowly now, I KNOW the Peter Bellamy tune for Oak and Ash and Thorn, also known as "A Tree Song" which is where the lyrics come from. THAT tune is still under copyright. I am asking if anyone has a TRADITIONAL or PUBLIC DOMIAN tune that fits well with the words. "Why?" you ask? Well, if I decide to record it, then I don't have to worry about copyright. And if I decide to perform it, I don't have to worry about BMI or ASCAP.

In other words, I am being lazy, and before I spend the energy trying to come up with a tune myself, figured I'd see if someone else already had one they were using...

I'm sorry, I must really be tired. I really didn't think this was that difficult a question to understand


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 07:09 PM

You could try doing it to "Star of the County Down", or some variation of the tune. It fits well enough to have been in Kiping's mind when he was writing it, possibly a Dives and Lazarus version.

There's a midi of it at the bottom of this song.


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: MMario
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 10:02 PM

thanks. when the brain cell gets returned I'll try it.


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 10:13 PM

I'd love to hear the Peter Bellamy tune if someone cares to post it. It may only compound your copyright concerns but I'm sure that Jeri, myself or others could knock you up a suitable tune if you nominate the appropriate tempo. Regards, John


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: MMario
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 10:20 PM

john, I'll post a link to a midi tomorrow when my brain is functioning. (unless someone beats me to it)


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Subject: Tune Add: OAK ASH AND THORN (Kipling, Bellamy)
From: MMario
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 02:55 PM

okay - here's the midi....

MIDI file: treesong.mid

Timebase: 192

Name: OakAsh
Text: Generated by NoteWorthy Composer
Key: D
TimeSig: 6/8 24 8
Start
0480 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 59 110 0160 0 59 000 0032 1 61 110 0094 0 61 000 0002 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 66 110 0528 0 66 000 0048 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 73 110 0094 0 73 000 0002 1 74 110 0160 0 74 000 0032 1 73 110 0094 0 73 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 59 110 0478 0 59 000 0002 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 59 110 0160 0 59 000 0032 1 61 110 0094 0 61 000 0002 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 66 110 0528 0 66 000 0048 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 66 110 0528 0 66 000 0048 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 73 110 0094 0 73 000 0002 1 74 110 0160 0 74 000 0032 1 73 110 0094 0 73 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 59 110 0528 0 59 000
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:OakAsh
M:6/8
Q:1/4=120
K:D
F6|B,2CD2E|F2DE2F|B2BABA|F6|BBcd2c|BABF2D|
E2DE2D|B,5F|B,2CD2E|F6|BBBABA|F6|BBcd2c|BABF2D|
E2DE2D|B,11/2||


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 05:42 PM

the Bellamy tune is so engraved on my mind, and fits so well, I can't imagine doing it any other way, It is so sad when performers feel they need 'different' tunes just for protection against ASCAP & such...I guess I am half-way glad I am not good enough to have to fight that battle...

(now, if you find a tune you 'really' think is better, we could have a honest debate and trade notes..*grin*)


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: MMario
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 06:26 PM

I'm not too thrilled with it either, but if I find one, I'll let you know....sometimes it's better when you don't KNOW there's a "correct" tune.


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: Lanfranc
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 06:44 PM

Why not sing Peter Bellamy's version, attribute it, pay the royalties and make a small contribution to Peter's estate in return for all that he did for Folk Music?


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: MMario
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 07:09 PM

if I knew it would get to peter's estate, I would.


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: GUEST,walrus
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:00 AM

"Tree Song" fits "The Seven joys of Mary" IIRC

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 09:07 AM

Oddly enough, there is a Russian translation, but with an original tune, not Bellamy's. Natalie O'Shee, despite the name, is a Russian musician who plays Celtic and folk rock.
http://zarez.narod.ru/Sound/07_oak.mp3


Гимн Деревьям (слова: Редьярд Киплинг, пер. Г.Усовой, музыка - Хелависы)


а)
    Am            F
В Старой Англии, как всегда,
   G    Em      Am    E
Зелёный лес прекрасен,
    Am               F
Но всех пышней и для нас родней
    G       Em   Am G
Терновник, Дуб и Ясень.
    Dm             G
Терновник, Ясень и Дуб воспой,
       Dm             G
День Иванов светел и ясен,
    C    Em    Am       F
От всей души прославить спеши
Dm      Em      Am      F
Дуб, Терновник и Ясень.

C G Am F C G

б)
Am            Em    С
Дуба листва была жива
Dm                   Em
До бегства Энея из Трои
Am             Em   C
Ясеня ствол в небеса ушёл
Dm                         G Em
Когда Брут еще Лондон не строил
    Gm         A       Dm    C
Терновник из Трои в Лондон попал
    F               Em
И с этим каждый согласен
          Am               F
Прежних дней рассказ сохранили для нас
Dm    Em         Am    F
Дуб Терновник и Ясень

C G Am F C G

a)
Могучий тис ветвями повис -
Лучше всех эти ветки для лука.
Из ольхи башмаки выходят легки,
И круглые чаши - из бука.
Но подмётки протрёшь, но вино разольёшь,
Хоть твой лук был в бою ненапрасен.
И вернёшься опять сюда воспевать
Дуб, Терновник и Ясень.

б)
Вяз, коварный злодей, не любит людей;
Он ветров и бурь поджидает,
Чтобы ради утех сучья сбросить на тех,
Кто тени его доверяет.
Но путник любой, искушённый судьбой,
Знает, где его сон безопасен,
И, прервав дальний путь, ляжет он отдохнуть
Под Терновник, Дуб или Ясень...

a)
Нет, попу не надо об этом знать,
Он ведь это грехом назовёт, -
Мы всю ночь бродили по лесу опять,
Чтобы вызвать лета приход.
И теперь мы новость вам принесли:
Урожай будет нынче прекрасен,
Осветило ведь солнце с южной земли
И Дуб, и Терновник, и Ясень.

   Dm                      G
Терновник, Ясень и Дуб воспой
       Dm             G
(День Иванов светел и ясен)!
       C       Em          Am    F
До последних дней пусть цветут пышней
Dm      Em       Am   F
Дуб, Терновник и Ясень.

C G Am F C G Am F C G Am F C G Am
А-а..............................

F C G Am F C G Am

Gimn Derevyam

Lyrics: R. Kipling
Translation: G. Usovaya
Music: Hellawis(Natalie O'Shee)

V Staroy Anglii, kak vsyegda,
zelyony lyes pryekrasen,
no vsyekh pyshnyey i dlya nas radnyey
tyernovik, dub i yasen.

Tyernovik, yasen i dub vaspoy,
dyen ivanov svyetel i yasen,
at vsyey dushi praslavit spyeshi
dub, tyernovik i yasen.

Duba listva byla zhiva
do byegstva Eneya iz Troi
yasenya stvol v nyebesa ushyol
kagda Brut yeshyo London nye stroil
tyernovnik iz Troi v London papal
i s etim kazhdy saglasen
pryezhnikh nyey raskaz sakhranili dlya nas
dub, tyernovik i yasen.

Maguchy tis vyetvyami pavis -
luchshe vsyekh eti vyetki dlya luka.
iz olkhi bashmaki vykhodyet lyekhki,
i krugliye chashi - iz buka.
no padmyotki pratryosh, no vino razalyosh,
khot tvoy luk byl v bayu nyenaprasen.
i vyernyoshsa apyat syuda vaspyevat
dub, tyernovik i yasen.


Vyas, kovarny zlodyey, nye lyubit lyudyey;
on vyetrov i bur padzhidayet,
shtoby radi utyex suchya zbrosit na tyex,
kto tyeni yevo daveryayet.
no putnik lyuboy, iskushyony sudboy,
znayet, gdye yevo son byezapasen,
i, pryervav dalny put, lyazhet on atdakhnut
pad tyernovik, dub ili yasen...

Nyet, papu nye nado ab etam znat,
on vyed eta gryekhom nazavyot, -
my vsyu noch brodili pa lyesu apyat,
shtoby vysvat lyeta prikhod.
asvyetilo vyed sontsye s yuzhnoy zyemli
i dub, i tyernovik, i yasen.

Tyernovik, yasen i dub vaspoy
(dyen ivanov svyetel i yasen)!
do paslyednikh nyey pust tzvyetut pyshnyey
dub, tyernovik i yasen.


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 12:31 PM

MMario-

We found Peter's sister Jenny Bellamy very cooperative when Roll & Go wanted a release for recording "Roll Down." IF you're interested in contacting her, send me a PM and I'll send you her e-mail address.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Help: kipling - A Tree Song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 12:49 PM

Note, however, that Jenny Bellamy is Peter's widow, not his sister.


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Subject: Lyr Add: A TREE SONG / Oak Ash and Thorn (Kipling)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 12:53 AM

From Puck of Pook's Hill by Rudyard Kipling (New York: Doubleday, Page & Company, 1906). I have boldfaced the differences between this and the version in the DT.


A TREE SONG
Rudyard Kipling

Of all the trees that grow so fair,
    Old England to adorn,
Greater are none beneath the Sun,
    Than Oak, and Ash, and Thorn.
Sing Oak, and Ash, and Thorn, good Sirs
    (All of a Midsummer's morn)!
Surely we sing of no little thing,
    In Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!

Oak of the Clay lived many a day,
    Or ever Жneas began;
Ash of the Loam was a lady at home,
    When Brut was an outlaw man;
And Thorn of the Down saw New Troy Town
    (From which was London born);
Witness hereby the ancientry
    Of Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!

Yew that is old in churchyard mould,
    He breedeth a mighty bow;
Alder for shoes do wise men choose,
    And beech for cups also.
But when ye have killed, and your bowl it is spilled,
    And your shoes are clean outworn,
Back ye must speed for all that ye need,
    To Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!

Ellum she hateth mankind, and waiteth
    Till every gust be laid,
To drop a limb on the head of him,
    That anyway trusts her shade:
But whether a lad be sober or sad,
    Or mellow with ale from the horn,
He will take no wrong when he lieth along
    'Neath Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!

Oh, do not tell the Priest our plight,
    Or he would call it a sin;
But?we have been out in the woods all night
    A-conjuring Summer in!
And we bring you good news by word of mouth?
    Good news for cattle and corn?
Now is the Sun come up from the South,
    With Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!

Sing Oak, and Ash, and Thorn, good Sirs
    (All of a Midsummer's morn)!
England shall bide till Judgment Tide,
    By Oak, and Ash, and Thorn!


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Tree Song / Oak, Ash and Thorn (Kipling)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:01 AM

"God Rest You Merry Gentlemen"?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Tree Song / Oak, Ash and Thorn (Kipling)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:02 AM

As with Kipling's Puck's Song, A Tree Song fits the morris tune London Pride / Idbury Hill quite snugly. Although a committed Bellamist I sing both of these to this tune to enhance the ritual potency as embodied in Kipling's verse, although in the case of Puck it was initially because I couldn't figure out the one Bellamy wrote.

Anyway, just uploaded a recording of Puck's Song onto my Myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/sedayne - all live in real-time: citera, low-D 3-hole pipe, Shruti box & singing...

Trackway and Camp and City lost,
Salt Marsh where now is corn -
Old Wars, old Peace, old Arts that cease,
And so was England born!

She is not any common Earth,
Water or wood or air,
But Merlin's Isle of Gramarye,
Where you and I will fare!


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Tree Song / Oak, Ash and Thorn (Kipling)
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 01:21 AM

IMHO you'd be hard pressed to come up with a better tune to any Kipling verse that's been already set to a tune by Peter Belamy. It's not often that genius is set to the spoken word & even less often that genius comes by & takes that spoken word & transforms it into song.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Tree Song / Oak, Ash and Thorn (Kipl
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 02:29 AM

Another possible tune is "Greensleeves" with the last syllable of each second line extended over three notes.

Charles


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Tree Song / Oak, Ash and Thorn (Kipling)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 04:57 AM

you'd be hard pressed to come up with a better tune to any Kipling verse that's been already set to a tune by Peter Belamy.

Peter Bellamy's original idea was that Kipling awareness of Traditional Folk Song is revealed by his verse structure, so that in all probability he wrote a good many of his poems with Traditional melodies in mind. In a Folk on 2 interview with Jim Lloyd PB points out that Kipling's wife once wrote in her journal that Ruddy was singing a new poem today, so the notion that Kipling thought of his poems as songs is fairly well established, although what tunes he sang them to isn't, of course, recorded. Many of PB's settings use traditional melodies - such as Danny Deever, set to the tune of Derwentwater's Farewell - but many of them don't, which in one way strikes me as odd, but in another way, of course, this only serves to highlight PB's genius as a melody writer, especially those in a Traditional Idiom! One wonders, did he ever write any other? Knowing PB's musical eclecticism it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, but whatever the case, PB's mastery in this respect is beyond question.

Whilst the melody PB used for A Tree Song is amongst his finest, it is interesting to continue with PB's original remit in mind and speculate on Traditional tunes that might do the job just as well - not just in terms of melody, but also ceremonial association. I mentioned Danny Deever above - I gave up singing this in North East Folk Clubs because of various anti-Bellamist sentiments voiced with respect to his having hiked a cherished Northumbrian air to Kipling's gratuitous slab of grand-guignol*. Which is to say, whilst it works musically, in terms of appropriateness of association it is, alas, way off. The same might be said of Way Through the Woods and Poverty Knock, though I believe there PB was of the opinion he'd came up with the tune independently! So - by singing A Tree Song to something genuinely folkloric - upon which certain speculations of the sort found in the lyrics have oft been entered into - is, in my view, a reinforcement of Kipling's fanstasy folklore with some fantasy folklore of our own. In other words - a Morris Tune, especially one possessed of so hoary a ritual charm as Idbury Hill, does the job just perfectly!

* Defined by WIKI as graphic, amoral horror entertainment - so that fits Danny Deever just perfectly, although in said North East Folk Clubs an idea persisted that the sentiments of the piece were anti capital punishment, which is as absurd as saying The Land is a Socialist polemic, another queer notion one encounters in the North East Folk Clubs!


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Tree Song / Oak, Ash and Thorn (Kipling)
From: GUEST,MtheGM
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 02:04 AM

All the tunes in Pete's The Transports ballad opera were his original compositions, apart from those used for the narrator's threads. One of them, tho, as I and others pointed out to him, I Once Worked In Service To A Lady So Fine, bore a strong resemblance to Fair Maid On The Shore. He swore he had never heard that tune, & asked me how it went. When I sang him a verse, he agreed that indeed he must have heard it somewhere and been unconsciously influenced by the recollection. But all those other superb songs do demonstrate his talent for original tunes. I once asked if he wwould authorise my recording DannyDeever/Derwentwater with Northumbrian smallpipe accompt [in fact I never did]: he replied that, as he had no rights of his own over words or tune, he didn't think he could claim copyright in the idea of combining them. As I have said on another thread, Best Song Of 60s, I think his Farewell To The Land, his own words set to a Copper Family tune, is the best original song of the whole Folk Revival.


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