BS: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)

Subject: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: GUEST,Butch at work
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:59 PM

We need to stop answering all trolling type messages. Don't even read them. This is a time for reflection and careful action. We can not let jerks get us off track and remove us from our much needed tasks. If you can't say something nice, shut up. If someone else says something that isn't nice, shut them down with resounding silence!

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:06 PM

Yes.

~S~

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:27 PM

I agree too. Unfortunatly I think you sometimes have to tell folks how pointless it is to post to such threads. Joe Offer does it well. Don't address the flamer at all. Just remind people that it's a waste of time to add to it.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:39 PM

And always remember that the people who do play around in this grotesque way are liars.

No point in arguing with them, because they aren't really saying anything, they are just using words as a way of goading people into responding. Words being used just as counters. And they step out of the way as we run at them.

It's fighting with shadows. And in a time and circumstances like this... I almost find it harder to put myself into that kind of mind than into the mind of the people who did this awful thing.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:19 PM

This might work: Next time you see someone responding to a troll, send a personal message to the responder, telling him why he shouldn't respond. I did that recently. Two people replied in a personal message to me, "Thanks, I forgot," or words to that effect. One replied that he didn't think the person he replied to was a troll. Later, after the thread turned into your typical piss-fight, he PM'd me again and said I was right.

If we keep this up, eventually everyone will be educated. But one person (me, for instance) can't do it alone. There is far too much trolling going on for one person to keep up with it. We all need to do it.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:37 PM

so not to respond to a "troll" but to share what was just sent to me:

-----Original Message----- From: [e-mail] To: (:> Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:42 PM Subject: GOD BLESS AMERICA

This is from a Canadian newspaper and IS worth sharing.......

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his broadcast.

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France,* Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for the things we do.

I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American that has read this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.

Stand proud, America

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:43 PM

*snort*

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:56 PM

Joy Bennett: That editorial is interesting, and may be authentic, but I bet it wasn't written recently. "draft-dodgers . . . here on our streets . . . getting American dollars from ma and pa . . ." COME ON! Most of those draft-dodgers should be grandparents by now!

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:26 PM

This might be more relevant perhaps

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Burke
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:05 PM

It's not even new to Mudcat.

A Canadian Tribute to the US

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM

Gordon Sinclair did write it a long time ago, so parts are out of date (He has been in his grave for some years now). He was sometimes right and sometimes wrong. As Jim Dixon says, the dodgers are now gray, and many are now successful Canadian citizens. Sinclair made the statements partly in opposition to the Liberal Party policies. I am of two minds about responding to trolls. Sometimes I feel better if I let fly ar them, but nothing, of course, bothers a sociopath of their ilk.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:16 PM

Or how about every time you find a real troll, you post the sillyass Sinclair piece?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: GUEST,I, hurricane
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM

I was kinda wondering why he hadn't heard of Airbus.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Troll
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM

Why is it silly, 'Spaw?

troll

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:02 AM

Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble?

It is silly to post such a piece especially now and it was factually wrong more than quarter of a century ago when it was written.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:07 AM

Things are pretty bleak when even your friends dont like you.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM

That Canadian editorial certainly distracted us from what we were discussing before: how to deal with trolls. It also nearly killed the thread. I would appreciate it if people would go back and read my post from 12-Sep-01 - 09:19 PM, and continue the discussion from there.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: MMario
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:57 PM

jim's post: Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12-Sep-01 - 09:19 PM

This might work: Next time you see someone responding to a troll, send a personal message to the responder, telling him why he shouldn't respond. I did that recently. Two people replied in a personal message to me, "Thanks, I forgot," or words to that effect. One replied that he didn't think the person he replied to was a troll. Later, after the thread turned into your typical piss-fight, he PM'd me again and said I was right.

If we keep this up, eventually everyone will be educated. But one person (me, for instance) can't do it alone. There is far too much trolling going on for one person to keep up with it. We all need to do it.

wise words Jim. I try to ignore them (suspected Trolling posts)- but sometimes they do manage to push my buttons.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM

If I am found guilty of feeding a troll, or a flamer, I give blanket permission for you all to tell me.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Deda
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM

As a relative newbie who posted the Sinclair piece this morning in all innocence, not having read it before this morning, I'd love a little advice. How do you define trolling? Is there some rule of thumb as to what is deserving of a response and what is not? And I would really hope that familiarity all the mudcat posts of the last few months or years is NOT a prerequisite to posting. I can only hang out here in spare moments from work. Just how savvy do we have to be to be good enough? I tend not to correspond with flamers, just because there's no point -- it's like trying to have a dialogue with a drunk. I'm just trying to understand what the rules and customs and expectations are.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: MMario
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:24 PM

Deda - "trolling" are posts that seem deliberately designed to raise controvery.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Jelly bean
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:11 AM

From a new member - Although I may be in danger of showing my ignorance I would appreciate it if someone could tell me what 'trolling' and 'flaming' means and how to recognise it. It seems to me from reading the above that it's someone posting a controversial statement - but maybe I'm wrong........regards Ann

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:19 AM

Jelly bean - have a look at the guide for newcomers to Mudcat, which of course you've already read and committed to memory, and are just testing us...

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:26 AM

I was accused on another list of baiting, when in fact my remarks were made in good faith. Usually I think it is pretty obvious when someone's trying to yank a chain or mash a button... but sometimes maybe it ain't.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: toadfrog
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM

Isn't obvious. Lots of differences as to who's a troll. But I suggest the following is infallible: any political thread signed "GUEST" should be conslusively presumed to be trolling.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:25 PM

Thgere are times when you have something to say that you kniw oither people are not going to agree with, and that in some ways may be contrversial.

I don't see that as trolling, or believe that we should only say things which we are sure everyone will agree with - what makes it trolling is when the aim is to start a fight, and raise the remperature while lowerinmg the tone - and when the person doing it doesn't even necessarily care one way or another about what they are saying.

One indication that this is the case generally seems to be a tendency to come in as unadorned GUEST.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 08:41 PM

Well put, Mr McGrath!

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Jelly bean
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:44 AM

Thanks The one and only Dai. I had not read the guide - have now - the line between flaming/trolling and introducing a controversial thread seems a very fine one, although the thread ' veggies are prats' is perhaps an eg of the former???.......regards, Ann

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:03 AM

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:23 AM

Iwas in two minds about posting to this, because the trouble with threads discussing Trolling is that they tend to attract this very response themselves. Surprisingly, we've only attracted one unamed GUEST so far, and he seems to be mute.

Perhaps we should use the same method of dealing with Trolls that seems to be effective with that other nuisance - wasps (the sort that buzz and sting - mind you that sounds a bit like Trolls anyway). You know the idea of using a sticky jam-jar full of water to attract them away to somewhere else where they'll become entrapped and drown themselves. Carefully designed threads that no Troll could resist, with computer generated mock postings to keep them coming. Perhaps (if they're not using a killer) it could drop some undesirable pop-ups on them as well. When there's enough of them hooked, just delete the thread. Might keep them out of other people's hair.

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:28 AM

LOL, Dave

You forget that most trolls are also members, are quite intelligent too.

Frustrating them would make the problem worse.

Wasps are weak and stupid, trollers aren't

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:16 AM

Nah, Dave, (s)he's just going round pulling up moribund threads about guests and trolling. The price of Freedom is eternal wossname ...

Steve

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: RichM
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:16 AM

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: GUEST,Laura
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:39 AM

I am a guest. I've looked up lyrics here in the past week and have had some help from some of the members in finding lyrics too. I really like the site, but am surprised at all the hostility between regular members and guests. From scanning thru some of the threads, I gather that it is caused from guests whose purpose is not to discuss or look up music, but to cause controversy and agitate people. Now I am only a guest and maybe should not even be posting this in here, but it seems to me that fighting back and responding to their ignorance only feeds the fire. If they were completely ignored, they would soon tire of this site and move on to somewhere else that they could get attention. There is a saying that the more you stir s**t, the more it stinks. I think that many of you have the right idea. Good luck!

Subject: RE: Stop the maddness (trolling that is)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:45 AM

Several revealing comments from several members here about their beliefs re: trolling behavior.

One is that posting without filling in the from line is trolling. This despite the fact that most website message boards with guest log-ins allow it. I post as an anon guest on a number of message boards in cyberspace, and Mudcat is the only place where I've been challenged for doing it.

Second, is the idea that posting something controversial is not trolling if you are a member, but is if you are a guest. Again--that troublesome double standard Mudcat loves so much.

Third, that pseudonomic posting isn't anonymous posting seems to be presumed. Pseudonomic posting IS anonymous posting, as defined anywhere else in cyberspace. But because so many Mudcat members post with pseudonyms, whether they remain anonymous or not, that they are in denial about the fact that most posting done on website message boards on the internet are done anonymously using pseudonyms.

Thanks for refreshing this RichM.