Help: Vicar and the Frog

Subject: Vicar and the Frog
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:43 AM

Found this song in the digitrad (click)and it's attributed to Stan Crowther. We sang it recently and someone in the audience claimed authorship. His name is Peter Dauncy and he said he wrote it with Brian Dewhurst or Brian Preston ( same person, two names).

We learned it from a recording by Fred Wedlock about 25 years ago and Peter says Fred attributed it to himself on the album.

Anyone know who wrote this song?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:57 AM

Jerry and Bev, I thought you made your living singing to school children. Are you singing this one for business, or pleasure?? [grin]
In this thread (click), Tony in Darwin attributes it to Fred Wedlock. In this thread, Geoff the Duck says he believes it was written by Miles Wootton, although Geoff learned it from the Wedlock recording. No listing at ASCAP and BMI. I knew it as a joke, not a song.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: GUEST,,gargoyle
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:28 AM

And we have a Susanne Here attributing the song to Murphy and Crowther.

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Whippet
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:15 AM

Just a short aside. Stan Crowther was the Member of Parliament for Rotherham for many years and is/was a keen folk singer who was involved in running folk clubs in the revival during the 60's

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:05 PM

Joe:

We do sing in schools but we only do this song in Catholic Schools! (grin). Actually we have other personae and in this case we were singing at the Ninth World Town Crier Competition in Anacortes, Washington.

From the responses in this thread it would appear that no one is very certain who wrote this song. Peter did mention to us that Stan Crowther had also recorded it.

When Peter claimed to be the author he was very credible. In fact, it was someone else in the audience who first said Peter wrote it. Peter was then very careful to be sure we knew he wrote it with someone else. He also said that he contacted Fred Wedlock after the recording was out and Fred said, "Does it really matter who wrote it?" Peter replied, "Yes".

Bev and Jerry

ps: thanks for the blicky

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: breezy
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:46 PM

F.W. nicked most of his act from home county artists and used the remoteness of the avon area to build up his image.When I saw him it was only once and I'ld heard all his material before by others.Therefore this gives credence to the strong possibility that certain persons have been denied the rightful credit. By his own testimony he does not claim credit outright for the v and f. Bout time someone came clean.

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:00 PM

I e-mailed one of the Fred Wedlock Websites and got this response:

The song appears on two Fred Wedlock albums and is credited to Stan Crowther on both. The publisher is given simply as
"Copyright Control" on one album and as far as I can tell the publisher isn't mentioned at all on the other.

I guess we can infer that Wedlock didn't write the song, since he attributed it to somebody else - but that's the only conclusive information we may get out of Wedlock's recordings.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:09 PM

Thanks for the link, gargoyle. Maybe I shouldn't have put the attribution absolutely. I used to think it was written by Noel Murphy (on the sole evidence that his was the only recording I had). Then in October 2000 the song was discussed on uk.music.folk, and one John Meechan wrote "I think it was written by Stan Crowther, ex-MP for Rotherham". There was more about Crowther and Murphy, and it seemed credible to me, but if anyone pointed out this is no proof I can't deny it.
From what I've heard about Fred Wedlock from fellow musicians, that's just what he would say. Which means we have three contenders. Can anyone suggest a way of resolving this? (Like, contacting Murphy Crowther if he's still with us? Or Miles Wootton? If we can contact Peter O'Toole for song info anything is possible!)
This might turn into a classic Mudcat thread!

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:18 PM

Hang on, I'm a bit scatter-brained tonight. I only have Noel Murphy's recording on tape. Years later I found the song on an album by Noel, attributed to 'Murphy Crowther'. I thought this referred to one person. From the contribution mentioned in my previous post I realised it referred to two people - Noel and Stan. That's why I didn't question the attribution. Still no proof, though ...

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 05:33 AM

It was actually me who acredited the DT version to Stan Crowther - who I'm sure I heard describe it as one of his. My main desire at the time was to make sure that it wasn't acredited to FW who had somewhat of a habit of letting people assume that he had written many songs which he hadn't - two Miles Wooten songs HERE and HERE are other examples which come to mind. I don't know if Stan is still alive, but if so perhaps someone could contact him and find out. If it was Peter who wrote it, I'm sorry if I got it wrong. The one thing that I am sure of is that it wasn't written by FW.

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: s&r
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 05:57 AM

Didn't Ed Pickford write the Oldest Swinger in Town?

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 06:09 AM

For what it's worth, my understanding has always been that Stan Crowther wrote The Vicar and The Frog.

Mick

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 07:31 AM

I did hear way back then that Miles Wootton told F W that if he ever recorded any of Miles songs and didnt give Miles full credit he would sue the A**e off him. This may or may not be true but its a lovely story. I have a few of Miles songs but have never thought of V & F as a Wootton.

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 09:03 AM

I certainly was mistaken in thinking it was credited to Miles Wootton, although many of the songs Fred Wedlock sang WERE written by Miles (so Joe, in future - forget what I said - it was a mistake).
My source for it was a Fred Wedlock LP, and when I had a chance to find it the song IS credited to Stan Crowther. In general, despite some comments otherwise, I have found that Fred Wedlock does credit on his LPs the writer of songs which he performs. Of course, in a live performance, the song is usually the culmination of some shaggy dog story or anecdote, possibly based on an actual event, but probably just made up. BUT let's face it, if you are telling a story, with yourself as the subject, and it leads into a linked song, it would spoil the effect if you then stopped to say the song was actually written by Joe Bloggs, and the event never really happened.

Over the years I have heard a number of comic songs and parodies which are of indeterminate ownership. I have heard people claim to have written a specific song, and then on several other occasions in different parts of the country, heard some other individual also claiming to have written the self same song, with identical words and tune. As a result, I tend to not believe these claims, or at least treat them warily.
Some claims have been documented, and the writer can prove that they ARE the author - see threads covering the similarity to Paddy's Sick Note, and a lecture given by Gerard Hoffnung telling essentially the same story, but not in song.
As for parodies, I believe there are at least three songs entitled Not the Fields of Athenry. It ties in with the fact that some jokes (particularly something based on a topical subject) seem to just "appear" spontaneously at all points of the English Speaking globe, in identical format and almost identical wording without there being any physical connection between the sources of the joke.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: GUEST,Dan Farns.
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 09:29 AM

Noel Murphy always gave the impression that he wrote, or had a part in writing The Vicar and the Frog, for many years people also thought he wrote Paddy's Sick Note, at least he never denied it, sad.

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 10:19 AM

Fred Wedlock never used to actually claim he wrote the songs, but he often wouldn't give the name of the author on the record sleeve -although it was usually on the record label if you looked hard enough. People just assumed that he had written his own material and he wouldn't dispute it.

Talking about Stan Crowther - does anyone have the words to his "Ballad of Camberley Kate" ? It's all based on an incident many years ago when the council of Camberley, Surrey issued all their workmen with a list of lady householders who might try and seduce them. The council made things even worse by trying to deny it, but finally admitting that it was true. Stan's song was a parody of Eskimo Nell which started "In the street of a thousand dustbins".

I can also remember a bit like:

So they called for the army and sent in platoons
But troops came back depleted and completely defeated.

I'd be happy to have any of Stan's songs - I heard him about four or five times and loved his humour.

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Ian
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 11:26 AM

I will look on my brian dewhurst / preston LP for his comments.
What is brian doing now.

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 06:36 PM

Maybe someone is in touch with Noel Murphy and could ask him about the attribution 'Murphy Crowther'? (Can't remember if it was hyphenated or not, sorry!) I hear he lives in the west of England somewhere.

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: GUEST,Lancashire Lad
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 06:57 PM

Brian Preston (aka Dewhusrt) was still singing recently. I saw him aprox 12 - 18 months back in the grimy hamlet of Longridge

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 07:20 PM

Stan Crowther wrote "The Vicar and the Frog" and "The Birmingham Brothel" and lots of other good songs. There are still some of us around in Rotherham who remember hearing their first performances at the Folk Club Stan ran in the town before he became its MP.
And if anyone still has any doubts, they might want to try asking the man himself, as Stan's still here, actively involved in running The Civic Society and even singing songs on the odd occasion.

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 09:10 AM

Are people actually still singing this homophobic, paedophilic piece of garbage?

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 06:05 PM

Chris, from what I read in the papers, it may be all the things you say, but it's also become fairly topical! :-)

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 06:31 PM

Piece of garbage? The song's based on a joke that exists in oral tradition and is a parodic reversal of Aarne-Thompson Tale Type 440, "The Frog King" / "Iron Henry". Versions of this traditional tale have been recorded from India to the Southern States of the USA and include "The Frog Prince"(German), The Frog Prince(Balinese), The Toad Bridegroom(Korean), The Enchanted Toad(Scandinavian), as well as three versions - two from Russia, one Cajun, where the Frog is a Princess. They form part of a larger group of internationally occurring narratives about Supernatural or Enchanted Husbands/Wives/Other Relatives.
The modern song shares other characteristics with traditional narratives in that it's anti-clerical and mocks the legal process. It doesn't condone paedophilia, and it's only homophobic if you believe the old slur that all homosexuals are pederasts.
Oh, and you don't have to sing it if you don't agree with it.

Subject: RE: Help: Vicar and the Frog
From: GUEST,Dave Plems. Somerset. England.
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 07:53 PM

I have also heard Noel Murphy sing this song many years ago in the MSG in Manchester. This is about the level of performance that this stage Irishman can deliver, Murphy was very content to sing songs on television in many different countries, sometimes claiming to be the author, Murphy and the Bricks springs to mind, which he sang on the McCalmans show in Scotland some years ago. On the same show I remember, the great Hamish Imlach, R.I.P. took Murphy to task on live television as he had played with the real author, Pat Cooksey, in Dublin, the previous week.