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Subject: Best way to learn tunes From: GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk Date: 22 Sep 01 - 11:00 AM I am trying to learn tunes on the mandola. I can play Morris, Country Dance and a few jigs but new tunes seem to take for ages. I can't really read music but I know where the notes are, so my wife plays them from the dots on the piano. I get the general drift then work from the dots myself. Any good advice? Is it best to learn tunes phrase by phrase or by playing all the way through eacg time? Is very slow to start with a good idea. Will I die before I master The Masons Apron?
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Sorcha Date: 22 Sep 01 - 11:08 AM Put the tune you want to learn on a cassette or CD,and make several complete repeats. Put it in your Walkman. Listen to it constantly until you can whistle or "dum ditty" the whole tune in your head. Then go try to play it. (This is the point at which I get out the music to follow along, (and find out where the differences in setting/arrangment) show up, grin). Works pretty well for me. By then, of course, I am so sick of the tune I don't want to play it, but that is another story! |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: 8_Pints Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:53 PM I don't think there is an easy way unless you have the gift of total recall! I do precisely what you suggested, learn phrase by phrase starting slowly at first. I also cheat by using the computer to copy the dots into a Noteworthy program that can replay the file through the speakers. Then I can hear what the composer/arranger intended. Best of all, though, is to ask someone to play it straight through for you so you can also pick up the phrasing and decoration. You can leave the latter until you become more proficient. Good luck, Bob vG |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 22 Sep 01 - 01:59 PM Virtual session ? |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: IvanB Date: 22 Sep 01 - 04:23 PM If you have recordings of the tunes that you can copy to your hard drive, Winamp has a couple plug-ins that are useful for learning tunes. One, Loop Master, allows you to 'mark' a section of the song for endless repetition and the other, Pacmaker, allows you to slow down the tempo of the tune without affecting the pitch (it also allows you to change the pitch without changing the tempo, useful if the tune's in an unhandy key) You can apply Pacemaker's effects singly or in combination. If you don't presently use Winamp, it's a free download here: Winamp Loop Master is here: Loop Master and Pacemaker is here: Pacemaker
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: bill\sables Date: 22 Sep 01 - 05:10 PM Les it depends on your age. If you are 95 ,Yes you probably will die before you learn Masons Apron, If you are just a young bloke you probably will die before you learn all of the variations of Masons Apron, but if you only want to learn the two usual parts of Masons Apron It should only take about a day or two. First remember that most session tunes were writen for fiddle and so are in keys reasonably easy for fiddle, ie G & D & A Masons is in A If the tune was writen for melodeon it will probably be in G or D ( But this is a music forum so we shouldn't talk about melodeons here)If you use your mandola in G D A E tuning you will be an octave below fiddle so fiddle keys should be no problem to you. When I learn a new tune I usually get a midi and play it on Cakewalk which also allows you to slow it down without altering the key. Play it slowly at first and then increase the speed till it is faster than usual and you should be able to play along with anyone. Before I had a computer I used to listen to the tune till I knew it well and then played it from memory. Another way is to attend a session and try to join in with others quietly at first. There are mandolin sites on the net which give you tabliture which is very easy to read and gives you positions for fingers. Bill |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: GUEST,Ned Ludd Date: 23 Sep 01 - 04:15 AM I'm glad I'm not alone. I have no problem with things which have lyrics,but can only remember a tune when I hear it, so I invent silly lyrics for the first couple of lines. |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Jon Freeman Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:32 AM Les, I have your problem with the dots. I have used my mother to play some tunes on the piano when all I have is dots to go by so that I can get a feel for where the tune is going before using the dots. I find a much better approach to just having the dots is to get hold of some music editing software. I use an Cakewalk. It is great, you just enter the dots which I do by hand (there is music recognitoin software around) and play the tune back. Another beauty of this approach is that you can alter the speed at which the piece is played. When learning by ear, I find sorcha's aproach good but there are times I like to play along. There is a plug-in availible for WinAmp that will slow CDs played on your computer down without altering the pitch that could be useful. Also, I had a modified tape player for a while to allow me to slow a tune down (OK pitch changes) when learning. All I did was connect an old volume control from something else into the motor circuit. As for mastering the Masons Apron, I'd guess that in the first instance it depends on what you mean by mastering and to a certain extent, you can make a tune easier or harder for yourself - playing every triplet that certain banjo players do and at the pace they do could be a lifetime ambition for example whereas on the other hand the basic 2 part tune is pretty straight forward even if it may not seem that way now. Jon
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Jeri Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:44 AM When I started learning fiddle, I had a lot of tunes in my head already because I was a dance addict. I only had to figure out what key they were in/what note they started on, and pick them out. I agree with everyone who's said to get the tune in your head first. You can use the software Jon mentioned to find the difficult notes. I also agree with simple and slow to start off with. Simple because you'll be able to play the tunes and you can always add ornamentation later. A lot of tune books and ABC notation includes a lot of twiddly bits. You don't want the twiddly bits at first, and they're often just one person's way of ornamenting a tune. Find the "bones." Slow because you have to train your fingers to play the patterns. I find that if I make a mistake, I'll keep making the same mistake, and my fingers will learn it that way even if my brain knows better. Start slow and concentrate, then gradually bring it up to speed when you can play it without thinking about it. |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Gypsy Date: 23 Sep 01 - 10:08 AM We use an answering machine tape, and put the tune one about three times. Then stick it into walkman, car, whatever, and don't even pay attention. Just play it. Then, learn phrase by phrase. I find when i learn a tune that way, i can jump in at any point in the song, without having to wait for the beginning. Tunes usually have 5-6 beginnings for me. And too, once you get into a style of music, you'll find that there are a finite amount of phrases....once you learn those, then new tunes are a piece of cake! |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk Date: 23 Sep 01 - 01:52 PM Well, thanks to you all. So many strategies, some I can use straight away and some for a rainy day. As to my age I am 55 and have played guitar - mostly chords for songs - and tunes on tenor banjo and mandolin. I bought a mandola from Hobgoblin about 3 months ago and it has inspired me. It sounds so good but I am, like Sorcha getting bored, with the same tunes. I suppose we all get slower as we get older but perhaps I have a few months left. I will chuck my concept of age and time at this point. It revolves around always being half way through my life. My Mother lasted to nearly 90. As I can't remember much of the first 10 years I am a about half way. As I age I will realise that I wasted much of my youth so I will still have half of my most useful years ahead of me. So, thanks to all again, ever the optimist, on to Mason's Apron! |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: dick greenhaus Date: 23 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM you could always learn to read the dots. Not difficult, and quite useful. Working strictly aurally is like learning words when you're illiterate. |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Ralphie Date: 23 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM A small point I'm hopeless at remembering tunes generally, so. I got myself a Filofax notebook with manuscript pages, and have written out the first 8 bars or so of my fave tunes (along with the titles !!) It's a real "aide memoire" at those difficult moments in a session, you know what I mean!! Ralphie Shurely Shome Mishtake....I thought was "The Mason's a Prune" !! |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Jon Freeman Date: 23 Sep 01 - 04:41 PM I'm not sure about "not difficult" Dick. I suspect there are others like me who have a complete mental block when it comes to trying to read music. I've known the basic principles since primary school but I still can't pick up the timing from a piece of music. The notes are no problem - that is at least within the range I would normally use in folk dance stuff on the tenor banjo - I'll often find the string from the dots without converting to a note then to a string/ fret but without the ability to get durations, if I have't heard a piece what comes out is usually meaningless. People can tell me 1/2 notes, quarter notes, etc for all they want - I know all that but it doesn't help. I've got a pretty good natural sense of rythm but that doesn't help... Jon |
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Subject: BBC CrowdScience From: GUEST Date: 26 Aug 21 - 07:16 AM CrowdScience - Why is learning stuff harder as you get older? - BBC ,,, what neuroscience can tell us about muscle memory and learning. Do musicians and sportsmen share the same challenges? By understanding what’s happening in the brain, can we learn how to learn better? With tabla-teacher Satvinder Sehmbey, neuroscientist Dr Jessica Grahn, viola-player Dr Molly Gebrian and sports scientist Prof Yannis Pitsiladis. Presented by Anand Jagatia Produced by Dom Byrne for the BBC World Service https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct1pqb |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: GUEST Date: 26 Aug 21 - 07:27 AM There is no best way. Both ear and notation are useful. In my opinion learning to sing the song or tune is good |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: GUEST Date: 27 Aug 21 - 05:45 AM No-one seems to have said it - Over the hills and far away |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Aug 21 - 05:18 AM My context is traditional Irish music (mostly). I think that if you want to be authentic in that genre you simply must learn tunes by ear. Once you have hundreds under your belt, and you're thoroughly steeped in the whys and wherefores of listening, compromising (as there's no such thing as a "correct version") and putting on your own stamp in terms of ornamentation and decoration, then you can get away with learning the odd one from a tune book. If you learn that way from the beginning, you'll be found out. Another thing is that ornamentation and variation are absolutely integral and (in m'humble) shouldn't be regarded as "later add-ons to the bare bones." If you're proficient on your instrument you should be ornamenting from the get-go. Notes on a page are not a tune. Learning in sessions is the gold standard. Learning by listening to a CD is a poor second because you can't interact and you're listening to the exact same thing, cast in stone, over and over again, though I know that there isn't a practical alternative for a lot of people. . Learn it slow and learn it right! |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: The Sandman Date: 30 Aug 21 - 06:33 AM if you are learning from notes,whatever music genre, if you make a note of which phrases are repeated can help some listeners, an example is the tune The Butterfly,BARS ONE AND THREE OF THE A MUSIC ARE REPEATS OF EACH OTHER AS ARE BARS 1 AND THREE OF THE C MUSIC. Recognising repeated sounds can be helpful for some people when learning, Recognising the sound of different keys when you are in a session can help too, then recognising the sounds of particular notes and intervals in the most commonly played keys for trad music EXAMPLES G D A and their related minor keys., Plus listening a lot, ornamentation is not as important as playing with lift and lilt , this is dance music, danceabilty is First and Foremost, ornamentaion is secondary and must not interfere with rhythym lilt and danciness, ornamentation is important but is of secondary importance., it must not stop the dancer from wanting to dance for example playing Sliabh luchra polkas, getting the feel and an off beat emphasis is of paramount importance, ornamention must not hinder rhythym and lilt, when playing jigs there is an emphasis on the first beat and to a lesser extent the fourth beat. this subtlety is not evident in written notation which is why it is important to listen to players who play for dancing, if it dance tunes you are learning |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Aug 21 - 06:55 AM Ornamentation is generally a bit more sparse in Sliabh Luachra polkas and slides, for sure. I also think that playing with lift and lilt, indefinable unless you listen to players who possess it and emulate them, is a sine qua non. Ornamentation obviously depends not just on you but also on your instrument, but I wouldn't relegate it to secondary importance. Again, you learn to do it your own way by listening to those who have got the knack. Try Matt Molloy on flute and Noel Hill on concertina (I haven't got any of your records, Dick...), and Jackie Daly on button accordeon. Kevin Burke on fiddle is a great example of a player who is effective yet restrained with ornamentation. There are so many things you simply can't learn from the notes in a tune book. I gave all mine away many years ago, and in my misspent youth I had lots of 'em... |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: The Sandman Date: 30 Aug 21 - 09:24 AM i agree, my recods are more examples of songs and northumbrian style. i would recommend seamus creagh fojulia clifford and denis murphy for sliabh luchra style |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Aug 21 - 09:34 AM I've got those! |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Sep 21 - 06:48 PM By the way, when I say emulate, I don't mean copy. |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 01 Sep 21 - 07:13 PM I have a difficult time understanding your situation. When I awake on the morning...(My head is full of tunes and verses - mostly Christian) I do not wish them there ... They just are .... and follow me.). Perhaps, just pray for your desire. And it will appear. Sincerely, Gargoyle font color=lime> Having an instrument immediately mearhwlps. It becomes a piece of your being. |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Sep 21 - 09:01 PM I don't know whether you're talking about ear worms, but they plague me. They might even be the death of me. Keeping a blues harp to hand is a grand ploy. |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Tattie Bogle Date: 02 Sep 21 - 07:41 PM Repetition, repetition, repetition: whether you learn from written music or by ear, it will eventually sink in, and hopefully if you learn from dots you'll then be able to throw the sheet music away and play without but with all that extra expression and ornamentation and fancy stuff to make it sound like real music! As Guest said, there's no one best way, apart from whatever is the best way for YOU! |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Sep 21 - 08:03 PM When it comes to traditional instrumental music, I do think there's a best way (though not the only way) and that's to learn tunes by ear. And, to me, ornamentation has always been the tune, never a bolt-on. All in m'humble...But it's the way I've always done it... |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: Tattie Bogle Date: 02 Sep 21 - 08:43 PM You did it …..”my way” Steve! |
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Subject: RE: Best way to learn tunes From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 03 Sep 21 - 07:28 PM Verses for me are very different than tunes. Tunes just rise from within. I was brought up, from age eight or before, to memorize,"because it is easier than looking it up". Short ditties and 10 minute pieces: Owl and the Pussy Cat Tom Twist Sam McGee Lady that was Known as Lou Bar Room Floor Raven Bells As many of ... or more soliloquy. And then come the songs. So easy, so natural. The more ribald, the easier.I They cling like lichens to a rock within my brain. Sincerely, Gargoyle Such waisted youth - imagine if it had been chapter and verse of scripture. |
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