Disgusting singing problems

Subject: Disgusting singing problems
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:12 PM

Sorry about your appetite here...

I have a kind of chronic cough, allergy-based, never goes away, and which varies in, shall we say, productivity. I find that sometimes the phlegm or whatever it is I'm coughing up makes singing difficult, as in I lose control of where I'm trying to take my vocal cords. If I cough, it will clear them. BUT (I warned you it was gross) since the phlegm doesn't usually make it out of my throat I usually then have to swallow it, at which point my vocal cords get all gummy again. (Even if I could spit it out, I might not, that is grosser, in my mind, than swallowing it.)

My question is rather anatomical - how can SWALLOWING something gummy affect your vocal cords anyway, aren't they in the trachea, not the esophagus? And my follow-up question is, does anybody know a way around this problem?

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:14 PM

OK, unclear: the need to cough is what gums them up first, not the coughing. Then I cough which brings it up to the back of my throat, clearing the cords; then I swallow which gums the cords back up again, when I didn't think that was where they were...

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:24 PM

I wrote a song which is a sort of foundary man's shanty but in winter I call it the coughing shanty.
It is gruff and there are natural places in the chorus to clear one's throat. Problem is, you can only sing one of these songs in a night. I would guess there are a few shanties that could act in the same manner - I often growl in parts of shanty choruses. Particularly the "H"'s like HAUL and HEAVE.
South Australia is good for that, you get both in the chorus. Come to think about it it is the only shanty with both HEAVE & HAUL
(yes I do know why).

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:30 PM

Do tell why, thread creep forgiven.

However, my issue is that I can't keep on TUNE with what is in my throat... so I'm not sure bringing the throat-clearing into the song, as above, would help...

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:51 PM

I have heard that a chronic cough sets up a chronic irritative bronchitis that means that the more you cough, the more you will need to later-- the phlegm comes to soothe the irritation caused by the cough.

First thing would be see a doc about the cough--

But what I have done to stop the cycle when I see it occurring is do the coughing that is productive maybe twice a day to clear out the crud, then use a cough suppressant to keep me from that reactive coughing that is NOT productive and that keeps the irritation going, producing more crud.

Make sense?

So on gig day you could try doing your coughing that afternoon, and try hard NOT to during the gig.

Alice (I think) has written a lot about the singing voice; maybe dry vocal cords are part of the problem, and the phlegm is coming to coat them? Maybe the coating is too thick and you need to drink a LOT more water in the day?

~S~

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:58 PM

Don't use milk products. They tend to coat the vocal cords with mucus as well. I find that lately I have to do the vocal exercises before performing I swore I'd never do when I was younger. I thought they were 'pretentious." But now, many years later, I know they're not. If the cough and the phlegm persists, you need to see a doctor; it could be something more serious.

All the best.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM

I've seen doctors, which is how I know that it's allergies and not a chronic bronchitis, as I thought. I'm allergic to so much stuff that there is no seasonal component to it - although I probably do need to drink more water. I am unwilling to take anti-allergy drugs for something that really only bothers me slightly (since I am not a professional, who cares if my voice cracks in the shower) - I already have enough prescriptions for one, and for another, they all conk me out so far, even the ones that are specifically not supposed to.

The anatomical question remains... why would swallowing have anything at all to do with what is around your vocal cords?

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Gary T
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:20 PM

My guess would be a small amount of what is swallowed lodges in crevices around the edge of the epiglottis, and is then brought down to the vocal chords with the next inhale.

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:23 PM

Perhaps it's the stuff that didn't quite get coughed out, settling back down again. It's probably throughout your respiritory tract, and you're just getting the loose stuff out. Expectorants that thin the gunk out work for me. (I get this at sundown in spring and fall when the weather changes.)

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Mudlark
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:36 PM

Mrrzy....I have a similiar problem...chronic nasal drip, gunked up back of throat, etc. Haven't a clue anatomically, but what works for me is sniffing salt water.. start mild with like a quarter of a teapoon of salt to juice glass of warm water (to dissolve the salt), then work up to whatever level you can stand. Pour some in your cupped hand and snort it (sorry, no other word for it) into the back of your throat. If you can finish off the glass this way it really clears the pipes...done an hour or so before a gig should leave you a lot clearer for the evening. This works well for snuffly colds, chronic sinus conditions, even sore throats. It IS something you want to do in the bathroom with the door closed, however! NOT a pretty sight...or sound.

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Alice
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 03:05 PM

I've also read that chewing papaya tablets help break up and thin out plegm in your throat, as well as sinus coating.... I found that bit of info when I was desperate with a year-long sinusitis. I'm not sure if it works, but it's cheap and safe, so you could give papaya tablets a try. Papain, in papaya, breaks down protein. The tablets are sold as a supplement for digesting protein. I think you should see a doctor if the problem continues... read on.

Here is something that may help explain the anatomical process of singing, from The Wake Forest University Center for Voice Disorders:

Pay note to the part about reflux - a symptom can be chronic throat clearing/cough. Maybe you should see an ENT (eye, nose, throat) physician and get it checked out.

---------------

The voice is not an organ, but rather, the external phonatory output of the vocal tract. While this may seem obvious, it has important implications for all voice clinicians (laryngologist, speech language pathologist, voice teacher, voice coach, and voice scientist).

The vocal tract consists of four component systems:

1.The "Generator", which is the breath support provided by the lungs. A regulated breath stream is the principal force that drives the vibration of the vocal folds. Without air flowing through the larynx, the vocal folds can make no sound. Thus, the condition of the lungs and how efficiently the breath stream is utilized have a great influence on vocal function.

2.The "Vibrator", which is the larynx; specifically, the vocal folds themselves. The folds are actually little more than a vibrator. The richness of sound and the subtleties of articulation are the result of the "resonator" and the "articulator" above the larynx. Problems of the vibrator include all problems of the larynx and its supporting structures.

3.The "Resonator", which consists of the space above the larynx, and includes most of the pharynx. This resonating cavity gives the voice its harmonic overtones, its richness. (The trained opera singer is able to manipulate the resonator to produce resonance at 2,500 Hz, which allows the singer's voice to be heard above an entire orchestra.) Problems with the resonator are uncommon, although, for example, tonsillectomy in a singer may temporarily adversely alter the resonator.

4.The "Articulator", which is made up of the tongue, lips, cheeks, teeth, and palate. These structures shape the sound from below into words and other vocal gestures. Medical problems involving the articulator are uncommon; for the singer, most problems of the articulator are corrected by the voice coach or teacher.

The term voice disorder implies that the problem is laryngeal (within the vibrator); however, it is important to remember that the four component systems of the vocal tract interact in complex ways. For example, poor breath support often gives rise to muscle tension dysphonia (abnormal muscle tension in the larynx that alters the voice). It is also important to remember that the neural regulation of these systems is complex and involves many sensory, motor, and integrating pathways within the brain. In actuality, the vocal tract is the entire person, since any abnormality of the psyche or soma can give rise to an abnormality of the voice. The voice is therefore a measure of a person's overall sense of well-being.
------snip------

Gastroesophageal Reflux ("Reflux Laryngitis")

Gastroesophageal reflux, specifically laryngopharyngeal reflux, is the cause of, or an important cofactor in, voice disorders in approximately half of all professional voice patients who seek medical attention. In addition, these patients often appear to have "occult reflux," in that many deny having any heartburn or regurgitation, symptoms generally thought to be necessary to make a diagnosis of reflux. Voice patients who complain of chronic or intermittent hoarseness, "a lump in the throat" (globus pharyngeus), difficulty in swallowing (cervical dysphagia), excessive throat mucus or post-nasal drip, chronic throat clearing, and/or cough may have clinically significant laryngeal reflux. This diagnosis should be entertained in every patient with any of the above symptoms or findings of unexplained laryngeal swelling, particularly diffuse swelling. Reflux is a factor in the development of vocal fold granulomas, Reinke's edema (polypoid degeneration), and vocal fold carcinoma. In addition, reflux often is causally associated with the muscle tension dysphonias and vocal nodules.

Patients with laryngopharyngeal reflux are different from the "typical" reflux patients with esophagitis commonly encountered by gastroenterologists. Voice patients with reflux laryngitis appear to have a high incidence of upright (daytime) reflux, a low incidence of esophagitis, and a high rate of treatment failure using traditional antireflux therapy, such as dietary and lifestyle modifications and H2 blockers.

The most sensitive diagnostic test in the reflux laryngitis group of patients is ambulatory 24-hour double-probe pH monitoring. Omeprazole, 20 mg. b.i.d., appears to be the most effective treatment. Vocalists appear to be extraordinarily prone to develop reflux, but why they are so inclined remains unknown.

Vocal Abuse, Misuse, And Overuse Syndromes: The Muscle Tension Dysphonias

This group of disorders is very common in professional vocalists, and may be lumped together under the heading of muscle tension dysphonias (MTDs). The MTDs may occur in isolation, after a URI, or, as mentioned above, in association with reflux. It is important for the voice clinician to evaluate each patient for each of these possible causative factors, since every underlying cause must be identified and corrected if treatment is to be effective.

Vocal Abuse

Yelling, screaming, singing too loudly or "out of range," and using certain character voices may result in traumatic laryngeal damage, including the development of contact ulcers of the vocal processes, vocal fold hemorrhages, nodules (localized vocal fold swellings), or diffuse vocal fold swelling. These lesions are the consequences of traumatic vocal behavior and they result in vocal impairment. The best treatment for all of these dysphonias is prevention.

Vocalists should strictly avoid screaming (to the point of causing hoarseness) at athletic events and at other times, including when performing. Professional vocalists who demonstrate findings of vocal abuse should be offered a program of vocal education designed to modify the abusive vocal behavior(s). Vocal-fold hematomas are best treated by voice rest, occasionally by surgical drainage. Contact ulcers on the vocal processes may be due to use of a loud speaking voice alone, but also often are associated with poor breath support, very low pitching of the voice, and chronic throat clearing. Such ulcerations may produce referred pain to the ipsilateral ear (often during performance), and yet may only minimally alter the vocal quality. Patients with contact ulcers and granulomas usually need treatment for both reflux and vocal abuse/misuse (voice therapy).

Vocal nodules, small discrete swellings at the junction of the anterior and middle thirds of the vocal folds, are common in vocalists, and are always the result of vocal trauma. These swellings may represent nothing more than discrete areas of mucosal thickening, or the nodules may be keratinized (like a callus), or angioma-like (vascular).

Most patients with vocal nodules do not need to have them removed, and in many cases, the nodules do not significantly alter vocal quality. However, when the nodules are associated with an underlying submucosal cyst or have a red "angioma-like" appearance, then surgical treatment should be considered, but only after voice therapy has been instituted. It is important to remember that these are functional lesions and that, with the exception of cysts and "red nodules" (as above), they are reversible -- that is, they may resolve completely when vocally abusive behavior is eradicated. Relatively few patients with vocal nodules ever require surgery.

All patients with traumatic vocal-fold injuries should be subjected to intense scrutiny by the voice team. Abusive vocal behaviors, including chronic traumatic throat clearing, should be eliminated, and voice therapy designed to optimize vocal efficiency should be provided. Vocal abuse in a vocal professional is tantamount to a musician's leaving his or her instrument out in the rain: it is inappropriate and neglectful. For most vocal abuse patients, including those with vocal nodules, vocal education (or reeducation) is effective remedial therapy.

Vocal Misuse

Vocal misuse is somewhat different from abuse, in that misuse tends to be less acute, more habitual, and more insidious in its effects. Speaking or singing out of range and the use of certain character voices are the most common forms of misuse.

In many singers who seek medical attention for a voice problem, it is actually the speaking voice that is at the root of the problem. In both men and women, the habitual use of a very-low- pitched speaking voice may be the cause. To produce a low-pitched voice requires considerable muscular tension. This type of muscle tension dysphonia is termed Bogart-Bacall syndrome. (This syndrome is named after these two great actors, not because they had anything wrong with their voices, but because the term suggests that people with the voice disorder often have voices that are similar in pitch to Bogart's or Bacall's).

Patients with this condition almost always speak using the lowest note of the pitch range, and also usually demonstrate poor breath support. Why this condition occurs is conjectural; however, in contemporary society, a low-pitched speaking voice is considered desirable. In men, a low-pitched voice confers authority and masculinity; in woman, it confers sophistication, worldliness, and confidence. Diagnosis of the Bogart-Bacall syndrome requires a high index of suspicion, and correction of the syndrome depends upon the cooperative efforts of the patient, the laryngologist, and the speech pathologist.

Singing out of range is also a common problem. Most vocalists know their own tesitura, that is, their "best range", but occasionally, a vocalist will take on a role that is inappropriate, and when this happens, vocal difficulties may result.

Similarly, actors may take on roles that require use of a "character voice" that pushes beyond the limits of "safe vocal physiology." Laryngeal muscle tension increases dramatically when a vocalist is speaking or singing out of range, and thus the likelihood of laryngeal trauma increases. When singers and actors sound as if they are straining, they are straining. Occasionally, the voice clinician must point out the obvious when vocal misuse of this type occurs.

Table 5: Suggestions For The Professional Vocalist:

"How To Save Your Voice"

1.Avoid abusing your voice.
You should do nothing to your voice that results in hoarseness and/or throat pain.
Avoid yelling or screaming to the point of causing hoarseness.
Avoid singing so loudly that you develop hoarseness, and avoid singing in situations that are so noisy that you cannot hear yourself singing.
When you have a cold or laryngitis, do not try to talk or sing "over" the problem, since this can lead to vocal-fold damage. See your doctor.

2.Avoid misusing your voice.
Be careful when using "character voices" not to strain, and use especially good breath support.
Do not attempt to alter your "normal" speaking voice to create an effect; particularly avoid pitching your voice too low. (If you are using the lowest note of your pitch range for everyday conversation, this is too low).
Avoid taking on roles that you cannot do, that is, don't attempt roles that are out of your range.
Avoid using long run-on sentences and a rapid speaking rate that stresses the vocal apparatus; good breath support for conversational speech is every bit as important as good breath support for singing. (If you don't know what this means, you should consider taking voice lessons, and/or seeing a voice therapist).

3.Avoid overusing your voice.
In very noisy environments such as airplanes, keep conversation to a minimum.
Examine your "vocal schedule" carefully. Remember that all your vocal demands are not of equal importance. Avoid making a schedule that leaves no room for rest and recovery.
Use amplification when available and appropriate, especially for rehearsals.
Use "marking" techniques when appropriate, especially for rehearsals.

4.Monitor your work and home environments for possible problems.
Avoid, if possible, performing in smoky, dusty, and noisy environments.
Use humidification in your bedroom, especially during the winter.

5.Monitor your diet and life style.
Eat regularly, and eat a healthy diet.
Avoid fried and other fatty foods.
Avoid dehydration, since this adversely affects the vocal folds; drink plenty of water.
Avoid eating or drinking, particularly alcoholic beverages, within three hours of bedtime.
Minimize consumption of caffeine-containing foods and beverages.
Strictly avoid smoking or other tobacco consumption; if you already smoke, quit.
Exercise regularly; aerobic exercise is best.

6.Avoid unnecessary medications.
Don't treat yourself.
Avoid drying medications such as antihistamines.
Avoid anesthetic throat sprays.

7.Consider taking voice lessons, even if you have never had a voice problem; voice lessons have been shown to increase vocal efficiency, and decrease the likelihood of developing voice problems.

8.If you need a physician, consult with other singers to find an otolaryngologist who has experience in treating vocalists.

-----------------

The above is alot of info, but there is even more at this site: Center For Voice Disorders of Wake Forest University

Alice

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 03:37 PM

When coughing, hang over a chair, with your arse higher than your chest, cough into a bowl and see what you get.

Works for asthmatics too....

LTS

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM

My doctor had me take a test for "aspiration". Barium swallow and all. Negative. I dont abuse my voice at all, but I still get laryngitis, and it's driving me batty. I'm on Prednizone.

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 04:05 PM

Ooh steroids.. Ain't they fun! Do you play a wind instrument at all? Have air conditioned office? Someone in your office got a cough they can't or won't get treated??

LTS

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Gloredhel
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 07:55 PM

In regard to the query as to how swallowing something can affect the voice, it isn't what's swallowed that's the problem--it's what isn't. When something is consumed, not all of it immediately travels to the esophagus. Some remains at the very back of the mouth where the throat begins. This is what affects the voice. Foods not to be consumed for about two hours before the singer begins to warm up include chocolate, dairy products, fruit or fruit products (juices, etc.), and anything else high in sugar. To be safest, drink only room-temperature water. (Cold will cool the muscles of your throat, tends to close things off, reversing any warming-up you've done.)

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:29 PM

I am nominating this for the "Single Most Disgusting Thread To Date, Bar None" award. That includes all the threads regarding flatulance, possum recipes, and thong controlled potatoes.

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: DancingMom
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:44 PM

I hear you... It can be quite disconcerting. I feel like I don't have as much voice control as I would like. I can sound fine in rehearsals, but then on the day I sing the pollen count will be up, or something. What works for me (as Seamus mentioned earlier) is to avoid milk and dairy on performance day, or maybe the day before, as well. I think it helps me too, to stay away from sugar and carbonated drinks before a performance. I like to stick with water and tea if I can.

I tried taking a decongestant before a show once. Disastrous. TOO dry. Find out what works for you. Good luck. Sharon

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 12:46 PM

Johnny Collins drinks LIme Juice in water, not sure if is at all related but that is what he does. Smelling ground Coffee has some sort of effect on the neurons or something in your snitch, which supresses the sneezy urge, it may help. Both the above are cheap enough to try, the second one I got from a lady who keeps a small phial of coffee on a necklace. Let me know if any of the above works. I have tried the coffee thing a few times and it does seem to do something. JohnB

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:41 PM

Sinsull, at least I WARNED you it was disgusting! But I'll take the award (clearing throat, this time modestly)...And Alice - THANKS for all that great info! It should stay available to folks, even if they aren't interested in my gobs of goopy gunk...

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: lady penelope
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:51 PM

I too have a mild allergy to large particles ( pollen, car crud, brick dust etc. ) this produces a persistent cough in me as well. Mostly the cough is non-productve but occasionally ( especially last year before I figured out what was causing the cough ) it got 'orrible. My mate at work swore by her mothers' remedy for phlegmmy people - a couple of teaspoons of lemon juice in hot water, drunk first thing in the morning - and I found that it did seem to get rid of that constant need to clear your throat. But you must drink plenty of water too!

Good luck, I know how wearing this problem can be.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: GUEST,Broken Biscuit, John J at home
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 04:35 AM

Is there any mileage in investigating the effects of passive and / or active smoking on the voice?

John, who doesn't smoke.

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: John J at home
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 04:41 AM

Mended me biscuit, that's better!

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Escamillo
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 05:56 AM

Alice, how are you ? Your information is tremendously useful, thanks very much.

I'm a smoker (willing to quit). What works for me is avoid dairy substances, drink lots of water (visit the WC before performance) and a mild expectorant made of herbs. It could be interesting that I've SEEN particles of phlegm in my vocal cords, once when I went to a specialist who took a complete video of my vocal tract. They are few (seen only one) thin filaments of flexible and solid material which adhere to any tissue they find in their way. In particular when one sticks across the cords, you have a perfect vibration effect totally alien to the normal vibration.

The doctor told me I have a great larynx and everything was ok, but recommended me to quit smoking. I would prefer he to tell me that I was en serious danger !

A recommendation from my vocal teacher: if you have to cough, open cords so as to avoid phonation, make a silent cough of pure air with no sound of the voice.

Liz, please don't pass that recommendation of hanging over the chair, etc. to Spaw.

Un abrazo - Andrés (still alive)

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:38 AM

Adnrés, hello! I had not seen your name here for so long, I did wonder what happened to you.

Alice

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: MAG
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 11:59 AM

Good thread, Mrrzy. I was taught never ever to clear my throat or cough, but to gargle instead. Fisherman's Friend cough drops seem to cut the phlegm just great. I've got the allergy thing, too, and chronic sinusitis. You seemed to like my voice fine; it is overcomable.

Somebody mentioned snorting salt water -- it's easier to do this if you get a netti pot -- yogic device for clearing the passages -- I use it for the sinusitis.

Great info, Alice; great site.

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 12:07 PM

Spitting it out won't be so gross if you have a spittoon!

Plegm isn't all that bad...it can give your voice a certain grit or edginess.

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: GUEST,ponytrax
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 02:17 AM

still haven't fixed the cookies oh well.

Mrrzy, I'm sorry to tell you I thought this thread was about the problems you had singing songs you found disgusting.....

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 06:19 AM

I have seasonal allergies, so I haven't really done anything about them yet. However, considering how I feel right now, I am considering getting medical attention myself.

The Docs didn't suggest anything (like claritan)? There is always going the shot route too. For chronic (as in year round) allergies, I think I'd look that way.

As it is, sometimes twice a year, I get so gummed up I wind up with bronchitis.

I was told at one particularly bad episode (as 'mag stated above) that "abusive throat clearing" was the reason I was having a hard time singing, not the presence of the phlegm itself.

Subject: RE: Disgusting singing problems
From: GUEST,Mrr-at-work-cookieless
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 09:14 AM

Ponytrax, I'd like to think there aren't any songs I'd find too disgusting to sing!