BS: Attacks Begin, II

Subject: Attacks Begin, II
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:48 AM

PART ONE.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM

CarolC: I'm pleased that you are having a good day! As to to the author of the "Pledge," troll has it right. (Paraphrasing) "So Bellamy got one thing right!"

If it makes you and troll feel better to believe that, go for it. However, the information said that the contents of the Pledge were inspired by the author's and the author's brother's socialist beliefs.

I'm surprised, Carol, that you didn't point out my "for" error instead of "to." Peg picked up on it immediately, and it delighted me that she knew I had erred. :>)

I caught it, Doug. But considering the enormity of the other thing I found, I felt it would be unsubtle of me to heap yet another hot coal upon your head. I hate being unsubtle. So I let it slide.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM

Correction... the author's cousin not his brother.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:08 PM

Doug, The US has government "by the people, for the people etc." Obviously a democratic government. (Except maybe in South Florida) It is also a republic. As Little Hawk has pointed out. Your government does have socialist programs. (please note that being socialist is like being pregnant, you are or you aint!!!) Look for instance at the "Economic stimulus" package Mr Bush is advocating.

So I submit to you as that the country of which you are so rightfully proud, coulds accurately be describes as

The People's Democratic Socialist Republic of North America and Hawaii.

Joking aside. Party labels are pretty arbitrary. Republicans are generally just as democratic as Democrats, who also pledge alligience to the Republic. History's political spectrum has the NAZI's (National SOCIALISTs ) on the right and the Soviet Communists on the left. With all of the saner governments in between. So, DougR unless I am completely misreading you, you are somewhat of a socialist. Hail capitalism, my comrade.

BTW Comrade simply means friend. so if you tell me you don't want to be my comrade, it will sadden me.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: DougR Date: 07-Oct-01 - 08:25 PM

That may be your belief, CarolC, but it's not mine. I live in a Republic, not a Democracy and certainly not a Democratic Socialist whatever you want to call it. So you may be my friend, but you can't be my Comrade. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:12 PM

A piece of good news

British journalist Yvonne Ridley has been released by the Taleban in Afghanistan and has crossed into Pakistan, according to border officials.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Troll
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:13 PM

Upon reflection, I'm glad that the Pledge was written by a socialist.
By and large, all you liberal (socialist?) types are pretty nice folks and it pleases me that you have finally found something to be happy about.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:26 PM

Thanks troll. What's got me wondering now, though, is that considering that us pinko-commie hippie types used to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance back in the days of the revolution (late 1960s and early 1970s) because we saw it as representing all that was patriarchical and oppressive about the US government, will all of the right-wing commie haters refuse to say it now that we know that it represents socialist ideologies?

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM

Whenever I hear someone say that yesterday's attacks mean that "the war has begun", I want to kick them in the pants. All it means is that the West has finally joined the war which was already in progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:10 PM

Nope, I don't think so, Carol. Not all of us buy into the arguments you and so many others have so elequently presented anyway. I think the U.S. fits the description of a Republic L.H. found in his Canadian dictionary!

Jack the Sailor: I'll be happy to be your comrade! I doubt Karl and I would be very close friends though.

And CarolC: I'll certainly be your comrade, friend, or anything else you want me to be (other than a socialist)!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: heric
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM

Yes, Bartholomew, I saw Bush do that on television today, but I decided to give him a pass on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:25 PM

Hmmm. Perhaps he was speaking primarily to the American people, and for us, "war has just begun."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:40 PM

Sorry, Doug,

Unless you are ready to write your own dictionary and get your definitions readily accepted. You are a socialist. By the way If you support thr NRA you are quite liberal as well. The MRA's policy on gun ownership is liberalism which falls just short of anarchy.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:51 PM

Actually, the main driving force behind the rise of republicanism (in the 1700's) was opposition to the concept of arbitrary rule by a hereditary monarchy. So a republic was basically the alternative to a monarchy. A representative form of government by the will of the common people.

At that time it was an idea viewed by many, many people with the same sort of horror that was later reserved for communism and radical socialism. It was generally the disenfranchised and the poor who were more inclined toward republicanism, since it appeared to promise them greater equality in society than they were accustomed to.

In the 1800's and the 1900's it was the disenfranchised and the poor who were attracted to socialism and communism for much the same reasons...they hoped it would bring them greater equality...a bigger piece of the pie.

Most of the privileged people at the top bitterly opposed the rise of republicanism (except for idealists, like Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc.). The privileged classes also bitterly opposed the rise of socialism...in both cases, because they saw no reason why they should give away any of the advantages they held over the working classes. This is the same mentality that opposed ending slavery, by the way. It's the "I'm all right, Jack, so don't try and change anything around here!" attitude.

It appears to me that the roots of republicanism and the roots of socialism therefore belong to the same original tree. The attempt to liberate the common man from domination by a privileged autocratic class.

Thus it is poetic justice that a socialist should have composed the Pledge of Alliegance to the flag!

You're either for the many...or you're for the few...and all progressive social movements have been for the many.

Republicans! Stop betraying your own heritage and get out there and fight for socialism!!! Remember, Nixon's wife wore a "Republican cloth coat". If that ain't the common touch, what is? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:51 PM

Well, Jack old Comrade, you believe what you want. Fine by me ...but I ain't no socialist. If I were, I would think like you, CarolC, L.H., etc. etc. etc., and I don't. As a matter of fact, if we all thought like that, it might make for a pretty dull Mudcat except for the music threads.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:13 PM

Ain't that the truth!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:14 PM

Doug,

Do you support antitrust laws?

Proportional taxation?

Not letting the poor starve in the streets?

The federal reserve bank?

Medicaid?

Social Security?

Publically funded Schools?, Hospitals? EMS Services, Fire Departments?

Equal Rights?

Miranda?

That "All men (meaning people) are created equal?

The current "Stimulus Package"?

If you answered "Yes" to any of those then to some degree, you are a socialist. All of these things take wealth or power out of the hands of the elite and hands it to everyone. Socialism is a part of any democratic society. If you support the United States and its constitution, you are part socialist. It is not a question of whether you are a socialist, but how socialist you are.

I've said before that I am probably more convervative than you. Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. You are obviously a Republican. But you seem to toe their party line without educating yourself about its origins.

Think of the modern political process and a beast governed by only three things: Image, Opinion Polls and Money. Your political leaders at the GOP had the nerve to give a tax rebate while continuing the largest public sector debt in the history of the planet. This is well and good, but they lost all claim to the term conservative when they did so. This country could use some actual conservatives in politics. But it won't happen...image.... opinion polls...money

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Troll
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:29 PM

OK, Jack. You've told us what's wrong. Now , who do you recommend to fix it?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:32 PM

Socialism is not a form of Communism. Socialism is a variety of Capitalism. It is, in fact, the form of Capitalism that developed following the economic crash of 1929. It was at that time that the "Free Market Capitalism" that many industrialists espoused was exposed as a failed system.

Of course, Roosevelt couldn't come out and say "Free Market Capitalism is dead" openly, or the moneyed interests would have succeeded in lumping him in with the godless communist horde in the minds of the simple wage earner. So he launched the New Deal, which was socialism on a pretty big scale, but acceptable because the frigging economies all around the world were in the frigging toilet and everybody was frigging desparate.

After things began to get rolling again, the money guys got their pet Supreme Court Justices to roll back a large portion of Roosevelt's programs. Then the GREAT WAR began and the revamped US economy was able to do what it does best - churn out lots of disposable stuff. And so was born social security, unemployment insurance, deposit insurance, free public education for all, government pensions, the military industrial complex and all the other trappings of the modern welfare state. The End.

We are ALL socialists. Some more, some less. Or we are in denial. Even the so-called "self-made men" don't make it without some form of social/economic protection or lever. The latest display of this? The airlines. Just one more example (added to farm subsidies, the Dodge bailout, the savings and loan fiasco, etc.) of an industry that benefitted from capitalism's need to prop up it's failing institutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:46 PM

Ain't no fix Troll. But a way to improve things is to realize the source of the information and make your opinion known issue by issue. For instance I am for drilling for the oil in Alaska, but I am also for extracting a large percentage of the revenues for the People of the US a. because the government bought the land for the Russians 2. Because if the oil comapnies screw things up seriously they will go bankrupt before they pay for the cleanup. That puts me at odds with both the Democrats and Republicans on this issue. My views have no representation in the current process. Why? Image...Opinion Polls... Money.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:50 PM

There is a fix. term limits and campaign finance reform.

If the people had a voice , corporations would actually need to earn our trust.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:50 PM

Okay, Jack the Sailor, I think you're right.

Happy now? Good. That's one of my main goals in life! To make you, CarolC, L.H., Genie, Spaw, Bart, and others that share your views happy! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: GUEST,Newsboy
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:19 PM

CarolC, I love you - and my wife says it's OK.

Shame about DougR.

It seems we were in the same demos but different sides of the pond many years ago. Nice to think that we have kept our beliefs. Sometimes now it seems as if it's forbidden. Joy and peace Ivan

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:27 PM

I am sorry DougR but you don't agree. You don't even read what I write.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:46 PM

Geeze, Jack, what does it take to please you? I said I think you're right!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: SeanM
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 08:34 PM

On another tack, I just watched one of the functionaries of the department of Defense proclaim that our attacks would not end until ALL "terrorist networks and those who would support them" were destroyed.

Quick! Anyone living next to an Irish bar with 'republican' leanings, or anyone with a Clancy Brothers cd! RUN! You might be able to make it to Canada before the Air Force starts launching missles!

Wait - the Quebec separatists have been called 'terrorists'. Crap! There goes Montreal. Let me know when they shell Boston.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 09:24 PM

*blush*

Gee, Ivan, thanks. Thank your wife for me, too.

Bartholomew, just in case my use of the terms "pinko-commie" and "commie haters" has led you to think that I think Communism and Socialism are the same thing, I should probably make a clarification.

I don't know how old you are, so I don't know if you were around and aware of what was going on in the late 1960s and early 1970s. In case you weren't, those terms were being applied by right-wing types to anyone who disagreed with the government during that period in our (US) history.

I don't know if you saw the following information about the US Pledge of Allegiance on the other thread or not. I'm not familiar with the history of Socialism. But theoretically, at least, it predated the economic crash of 1929 by a few decades...

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

Click here for more.

In terms of my own political and economic ideologies, I think the categories into which I would fit haven't been created yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 09:32 PM

Oops. Correction. The term "commie-haters" was not applied in the way I said in my last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Troll
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:32 PM

I think you maybe meant "Commie Lovers". Times change. My "commie lover" annd I will be married 20 years next May.
We DO NOT discuss politics.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:39 PM

Six of the current eight top threads are B.S.

And people wonder, "what has happened to the DT/MC

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:49 PM

I bet if you wait a bit, GUEST, you'll find that the numbers have changed, and there will be more music threads in the top eight than BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Troll
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:50 PM

Guest, please see my post on the Rush Limbaugh thread.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:44 PM

CarolC, I took Bart's meaning to be that Official, Federal Government socialism started then. While I don't completely share his point of view, it was a very good point. It was certianly quite a quantum leap. I don't think any Subsequent government has gotten much right of there since then. After all even our resident capitalist proudly supports Social Security.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:00 AM

Jack the Sailor, I though that might be the case also, but I figured it couldn't hurt to post the other information just in case.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:12 AM

Hey GUEST, check it out. As of right now, five out of the top eight threads are about music.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:13 AM

SeanM The last I heard of the Quebec terrorists, they'd got pardons and one of them was in the legislature. Ahh Canada, Peace Order and Good government!

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: SeanM
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:30 AM

AAAAAUGH! RUN, JACK! RUN! That just means the CANADIAN GOVERNMENT CONDONES TERRORISTS!

I'm sure the Pentagon is drawing up invasion plans right now. Guess that they're going to make SURE that the Stanley Cup stays in the Good Ol' US.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Willie-O
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:37 AM

Jack, that ain't real accurate. At all. First, we have lots of legislatures. Paul Rose, who may have actually murdered Pierre Laporte (he was in the cell that did it, but they have never revealed who the killer was), tried to get nominated to run as the NDP candidate in a Quebec riding a few years ago. I forget whether it was a federal or provincial seat. Anyway he may have got the nomination, temporarily, to the intense embarrassment of the larger NDP, but he certainly didn't win the seat.

A Quebec judge was recently forced to resign due to revelations that he had temporarily sheltered some fugitive FLQ members during the October Crisis of 1970. There are still consequences even for those who played minor roles.

Most of the FLQ members who provoked the October Crisis spent many years in Cuba, Algeria, and other fun spots, before returning home to face the music--and for most, relatively short prison terms. You see, we have this funny attitude that most people can mature and learn from their mistakes, and fifteen or twenty years of exile and punishment is enough of a deterrent. None of the now late-middle-aged former FLQ members have gone back to blowing up mailboxes or kidnapping diplomats.

What a ridiculous country is Canada! But never fear, soon we shall be "harmonized" with the United States. Soon as we build sixty new prisons.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: GUEST,Karl Marx
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:59 AM

That's a couple of times DougR has said that he and I could not be close friends.

That's because of your predjudice, not mine, comrade.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:02 AM

Doug,

twenty hours later my response may seem completely out of time, but anyway: You're right about the reason for the opinion split in Germany. 45 years of being told that the USA is the worst enemy (and that is not counting the Nazi time before) doesn't get lost in ten years. It'll take perhaps more than a generation.

The Roman limes had split 'Germany' for about 300 years. Though that was more than 1500 years ago, it still can be felt. The Germans on the Roman side of the limes are wine drinkers and not beer drinkers and they are more sociable and easy going. (I doubt many other German would agree with me on that)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Troll
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 08:47 AM

"That's a couple of times DougR has said that he and I could not be close friends.

That's because of your predjudice, not mine, comrade. "

GUEST Karl Marx

Maybe it's not predjudice. Maybe it's a matter of taste.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:01 AM

Willie-O I seem to recall one of them being elected to the "National Assembly" (Quebec calls her provincial legislature that.) It's been a while I am vague on the details...

At the time I, and many other Canadians thought that they were treated way too leniently. But in retrospect, they were rehabilitated and further punishing them worse than common murderers would have sent the wrong message.

I am proud of Canada's tolerance as well as her respect for law and order. With all due respect to other countries, I believe that "Peace Order and Good Government" Is as good as a national motto can get.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: DougR
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:54 PM

Perhaps, Karl, we COULD be friends, comrades, whatever, if I knew who you were. The Karl Marx I do not admire is dead.

But then, maybe not.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:59 PM

We're gonna rock this town
Rock it inside out
We're gonna rock this town
Make'em scream and shout
Let's rock, rock, rock, man, rock
We're gonna rock till you pop
We're gonna rock till you drop
We're gonna rock this town
Rock this place apart

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Troll
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:14 PM

Cool! When do we start?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: DougR
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:34 PM

Guest: you sure you know which thread you're posting to? Or maybe you were just trying to make it qualify as a music thread! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:46 PM

Hey, Amos: did you just see/hear that four engine miltary behemoth drop into Lindbergh? wazzupp? (I nearly did a drop and cover. . . . (The engines had almost a ~musical~ whine to them (how's that?))

Amos? Amos???!

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 05:13 PM

Boy did I get surprised!! I thought this thread was about the attacks in the other side of the world - just goes to show that a farm kid never will figure it out.

Guest - you married? (just curious)

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Amos
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 07:07 PM

Hurricane:

I was safe on the other side of Point Loma, so I guess it got muted. We were a little nervous about two unmarked frigates or related that were bobbing along off the shore, but I think they were Candian.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 07:59 PM

Canadians should be okay. I guess that was a C-5, which is smaller than a 747-200F. Could have fooled me though. It FELT a lot larger than that because of the noise, I guess.

We now return to your regularly scheduled music discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:51 PM

Not the wrong thread! And Troll, I believe it started on Sunday!