Music in the head (or not)

Subject: Music in the head (or not)
From: CapriUni
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:58 AM

Often, when I'm surfing through the DT, and download a midi, so I can read along with the tune, I find the music and the words don't seem to match up in my head -- there seem to be either too many notes, or too few. And recently, I composed a few songs of my own on NWC, and sent them through e-mail to my Dad, and he /insisted/ that the words and the tunes didn't match up, even though, since I wrote both, I *know* they do. the problem is magnified, of course, if there are a lot of grace notes or slurring in the melody -- or when the melody is split between two or more staves, and has the chords written in -- I'm never sure which note is the melody and which is the harmony, or if the "real" note is one in-between the high note and the low...(this last gripe not a problem in the DT, but in other sites like Kididdles)

I was wondering if any other folks here have had the same experience, how they deal with the problem (do you alter the words or tune until they match up in your own brain, or what?), and if you have any theories as to why this kind of thing happens. Any real reasons of course, will vary from person to person, but I'm just curious...

I guess this question is sort of related to the ideas discussed in these threads: Karaoke of the Mind? and The Song Stuck in Your Head, Science, though I guess this is a case of teflon (tm) brain -- what you *want* to stick, won't...

:::Grrrrr!:::

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: Amergin
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 10:05 AM

i don't listen to music in the head all that much....am usually too busy doing other things...like reading...or wiping my butt....or whatever....

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: MMario
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 10:07 AM

CapriUni - I suspect, at least with the original songs - you may have the same problem as I;

frequently with my poems - or with lyrics and a tune, others will read them and tell me that they don't scan properly - but when we get a chance to check them out verbally it is due to the phrasing and/or accentuation of various syllables that I automatically give the lyric (which of course I know if I wrote it) and a differeing phrasing that comes more naturally for the person reading it.

I know this has also happened to me when trying to match lyrics up with tunes for songs I do not know. When I finally hear someone who knows the song sing the verse - it seems obvious - but trying to do it "cold" I can't make sense of the way lyric and tunes fit. Sometimes the difference is very minor.

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 10:19 AM

Why would you not simply post all this in the existing threads?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: MMario
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 10:43 AM

probably because the question posed is actually very different from what is being discussed in those threads, even though they are referenced.

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 10:54 AM

Yes, the root question here has to do with the scanning of verse, not with not being able to get tunes out of your head.

For some reason I seem to be pretty well able to scan stuff I read in order to make it make sense -- which has to do with knowing which syllables to unnaturally unstress, how many "take-up" syllables tehre are at the start of a line, etc. I know others find this harder. I wonder if it's some sort of innate thing -- the tendency anyway. Just as there are other things I find very difficult that others do as easy as breathing.

Thanks for the visual, Amergin. Oy.

Alex

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: MMario
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 11:07 AM

This is a frustrating facet of putting together tunes for the DT when I am trying to match lyrics up with the midi's found or sent to me.

When it becomes REALLY frustrating is when I can SING the bleedin' words along with the midi - but STILL can't fit the syllables to the dots!!!! (And when I pass one of them along to Joe and HE can't either,- tho' I enjoy the sense of not being the only one - it is flat out aggravating!

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: CapriUni
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:34 PM

MMario --

The factor of accenting syllables is certainly part of it, but I have a theory that it also has to do with just simply the sounds of the words -- the vowels and the consonants -- that we hear when the words are spoken or sung (and what we use to distinguish one word from another), that are completely missing in the digital version of a tune.

Also, I don't know of any human who can sing (or play, for that matter) with the mathematical precision of a computer. We subconsciously shorten or lengthen the syllable of a word based on its context, meaning, or emotional impact. The time value of a dot on a score is only aproximate to our ears, but unvaringly precise to a computer. And those minute differences seemed magnified when they're overlapped in the brain.

So -- have any of you folks found a song in the DT that you just loved in theory (beautiful melody, powerful lyrics) and wanted to sing, but you couldn't get to work when the two halves are put together? And if so, how do you get around that?

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: MMario
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:40 PM

changed it, of course!

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: CapriUni
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:41 PM

Amergin --

Well, I don't search through the DT in the head, certainly (the computer cables aren't nearly long enough), but I do sing a lot -- after all, it's only a foot or two from the shower, so why not?

Also, I have seen musical toilet paper despensers in novelty catalogs that play music when they are spun...

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: CapriUni
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:42 PM

heh, heh, Mmario. Which do you change, the music or the lyrics?

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: CapriUni
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:54 PM

Mousethief --

I think it probably is some sort of innate thing. Psychologist Howard Gardner came up with the theory of Multiple Intelligences. For a little more info here is a Multiple Intelligence Pie Chart , though I'm not sure whether this ability is more linguistic or musical -- probably a little of both.

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: MMario
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:05 PM

seriously, depends on the situation.

A lot of times where you will have a quarter note in one verse, you might need two eights on another verse, or versa-vice. Sometimes the time values of two adjacent notes will reverse from one verse to another.

I,more frequently then I should, will change a word because I either have trouble pronouncing it or stumble over it while a near synonym I can sing cleanly.

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:11 PM

CapriUni--

In terms of the lyrics not quite fitting with melodies that are in MIDI files--I have noticed this as well--part of it comes from the fact that each lyric phrase really is slightly different, melodically, and generally, the midi programmer doesn't enter the melody so that it corresponds exactly to each verse--You really have to learn the melody, then interpret so that it fits the lyrics-- Most of us learn songs by listening to a singer who has already done this already--

As to your own songs, if I understand you, you don't know which notes are the melody and which are chords in your own compositions--If you don't know, why would anyone else know? You need clean up what you have written so that there is nothing there that you don't want, and so that there is a good reason for everything that is there--

For instance, the melody shouldn't be split between two staves, and you need to clean that up--And if you have a melody note in the middle of two chord notes, you are not doing your job as a composer--

You should write your melody out as a single note line, without any harmonizations or chords first--It should be written all in one staff, and it should be in treble clef--The chords, if you write them out in notation, should be written on a separate staff, even if it is in the treble clef--You can write a single voice harmony part on the same staff, but you must make sure that the top notes are one part and the bottom notes are another

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: CapriUni
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 08:00 PM

M.Ted, you wrote:

"As to your own songs, if I understand you, you don't know which notes are the melody and which are chords in your own compositions"

You don't understand me. I don't use chords at all when I write songs, and the only time I use multiple staves when I'm writing a round or a quodlibet... As you suggest, I've always written single line melodies (I've always considered myself a poet first, and only write melodies for those poems which seem like they need to be sung, rather than spoken. Since I can't sing a chord, I don't write any)

The multiple staves/chords problem I have is on other musical sites with midis, particularly childen's sites like Kididdles. I hear the midi cleanly when it is playing through both speakers, but when I download them into my own computer, so I can put words and music together, and get rid of extraneous onamentation (I only do this with public domain songs), I'm faced with a jumble. Basically, I just try deleting "extra" notes by trial and error: delete a note, play the measure back, see if it sounds "right". If it doesn't, put the old note back, and take out another one instead. Repeat.

Takes an awfully long time. I was wondering if there were a system I could use...

The confusion over my own compositions comes from my father, who insists my melodies and words don't match, even though I know they do...

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: Crane Driver
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:58 PM

Traditional singers often varied the tune from verse to verse, to fit the words. "The tune" isn't a straightjacket but a series of melodic guidelines that is secondary to and supportative of the words. And of course different singers with different dialects and ways of speaking will stress lyrics differently. Make the song work for you, don't spend your time trying to "accurately" match up words to dots - life's too short for that!

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:31 AM

Sorry that I misunderstood--I have problems like that with my father too---

I do the same thing as you do, on occasion, and have had jumble problems as well(hope I understand what your talking about this time)--I usually open the MIDI file in my sequencer program, rather than in the notation program, so that each track(and, at least usually) comes up separately--if I am lucky, there will be one track that has the melody, one with bass, etc, and I can strip the rest off--then it is just a question of removing the repeats and dealing with the intros and solos--

I've had problems for a number of reasons, the main one is when it turns out that the sequencer has been sloppy or even faked the melody--the melody notes are often slight variations of what the melody really is, or the sequencer decided to be "creative" and stuck a lot of his/her(tho guys are usually the ones who do this) ornamentation--I have even run across files that have extra bars in the melody! Another thing that can happen is that the arranger/sequencer has the melody move around from one voice to another, and rather than simply changing the patch(from say trumpet to clarinet) on the melody track, they move the melody to a whole other track--The worst problem is when the arranger/sequencer is not a very precise musician, so that notes end before they should or there are extra notes in phrases, well, you know what I mean--

At lot of times, you can get what you need, but other times it is just too much work, and you might as well just work out the melody, one finger style, and create a file from scratch--

Your best bet is to try to work with files that have been created by someone who is a good musician and that is faithful to their original source material--Lesley Nelson, who does the Contemplator site, is one of the best that way, at least for traditional music, and when I am looking for a tune, I usually check her site first--The other people who contribute there are very good, as well-- I often take MIDI's from there and learn the tune by "following" on either the keyboard or the guitar--

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 08:45 AM

Crane Driver --

(BTW, isn't it awfully hard to hitch a team of cranes to a wagon? And what kind of harnesses do they make for birds, anyhoo? ;-))

While I agree that life is too short to worry about being *pure* in the singing (after all, we *Are* talking about "folk music", where each new singer contributes to the composition), but sometimes, there are so many slurs and grace notes, it's hard to tell where to even begin, as in this song: Black-eyed Susan

(I'll probably figure it out, simply by listening to it over and over... now *this* is where this thread meshes perfectly with "Karaoke of the mind?" ... listen to it so much until *everything* you read starts sliding into the melody, then go back and read the lyrics... But there's got to be a much less annoying way to go about it...) ;-)

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 09:20 AM

CapriUni, I've had several problems which may also be similar to what you're talking about.

Some midis are synthesized or "made" by playing a keyboard as opposed to entering the notes by hand (or mouse). These sound beautiful but are nearly impossible to understand by looking at the notation. Sometimes chords (notes that sound like they are played at the same time) are actually written as 16th or 32nd notes in different staves and with crazy rests. One arrangement of Amazing Grace I transcribed from this type of arrangement was extremely simple to play, but the notation was a jumble. I just had to listen to it instead of relying on the score. One thing that helped me with this particular one was to continually change the resolution in my midi software. Sometimes changing the snap helped, but not as much as the resolution.

As far as hearing the melody, I also found that some midis that aren't quality midis don't have a good balance (volume) between voices. I like to make the melody a little louder, also accents. I suspect that for some reason the same midi sounds different on my two different computers, speakers, etc. Just last night I was trying to write a midi for Holy Manna (a choral arrangement that has a beautiful countermelody). It is soooooo easy to play on the piano, but quite difficult to do all that phrasing electronically.

I looked at your Black-eyed Susan midi. Actually I think the midi is very clean and could not be written simpler. But then I love the traditional Irish manner of singing (with lots of grace notes), similar to the American Gospel-type where the singer hovers all around a note. One other suggestion is to use a midi search engine to find a particular midi you like (if it's available).

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:21 PM

Mary, you wrote:

"I looked at your Black-eyed Susan midi. Actually I think the midi is very clean and could not be written simpler." Well, the midi itself is clean, it's just that this is one of those songs I wish I had someone to sing for me, so I could hear which words are slurred among which notes. Of course, when a human sings, a slid or slurred note is very smooth -- like a slide whistle or trombone. But a midi treats each different pitch as a seperate syllable.

I can usually figure it out after three or four listenings... but it's just disconcerting the first time through.

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:54 AM

Re: Black-Eyed Susan

Converted it from Midi to NWC last night, to see if I could get the lyrics and dots to match up (gee, maybe I should have titled this thread "Connecting the dots" ;-}), and discovered that this is the wierdest song, rhythmicly speaking, that I've seen. The time signature switches between 3/1 (that's three *over* one) to 5/4 -- a few times, even in the middle of a measure. Has anyone here ever heard of something like that?

And no matter what I do with the dots (slurring, converting to grace notes) the words come up short half way through the verse...

Any suggestions on how to "fix" this?

I'm wondering if maybe we hear music (As opposed to just hearing sound) if it meshes with our own body's rhythms -- breathing, heartbeat and the like. If so, I may need to be an alien to figure this song out! ;-)

:::Sigh::: maybe I can find an MP3 or real audio of someone singing this song...

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: Crane Driver
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 08:15 PM

CapriUni

Its not crane as in bird

And its not crane as in lifting machinery

Its a CLUE

Fresh rasberry to the first 'catter to figure it out

Subject: RE: Music in the head (or not)
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:28 PM

Crane Driver --

I realized that it might not be the bird... that's just the image that popped into my head ...

er... is my wierdness showing, right now? ;-)