Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS

Subject: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 01:39 PM

In doing more research for my dad's book, I happened across an eye-witness account of Quantrell's Massacre at Lawrence, Kansas, written by Chaplain Fischer. It is a fascinating read, plus it looks as though there are other interesting reads linked at the bottom of the page. Just thought some of you might be interested: please click here.

kat

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: 53
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 02:21 PM

i'm not in to civil war history that much, i like ww2 history better, but thanks for the info.

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 07:17 PM

Kat, That's grand stuff. Thanks so much. I'm gonna get the info to Dave Para and Cathy Barton. I'm certain they'll enjoy seeing it. (Cathy wrote a wonderful song about Kate Quantrell -- wife of William.

You're amazing,

Art

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 08:01 PM

Kathy and Dave's website is here. Kat, you might be interested in their link to "Civil War on the Western Border."

I'll always remember Kathy and Dave clowning around at a dulcimer get together when they got hold of some kid's masks. Kathy has a very infectious smile and giggle.

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 12:06 AM

Thanks, Kat

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 12:23 AM

Ah, Art, you are much more amazing. Welcome to you all. I just thought this was incredible to read, being a first-hand account and all.

I happened to find this because I wanted some more background on Quantrell and the James boys. According to my dad's stories, my great-grandmother, whose father was a Confederate spy, had met Quantrell and said, despite all the horrible things he did, she found him to be quite a kind gentleman. I guess he passed through where they were once and she wound up doing some laundry for him.

Thanks, again,

kat

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 12:26 AM

she found him to be quite a kind gentleman.

Maybe he was just having one of those days.

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 12:32 AM

Musta been, LeeJ! LOL, I don't know if this was pre-Kansas massacre or later on. Maybe he just dazzled the eyes of a young girl.:-)

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: toadfrog
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 01:29 AM

A much more plausible account than this one. So much for the "folk song as history"!

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 01:52 AM

Well, toadfrog, it could still be history, depending on through whose eyes one views it, eh? Though, of course, the eyewitness account is riveting and much more plausible, as you say.

This is sort of strange for me. On the one hand my dad's exact words are, in talking about my great-great-grandfather and his daughter, my great-grandma, "He (Abe Forsythe) was a friend of the James boys and Quantrell, which incidentally, for all the bloody reputation the history books give him, my Grandmother Hudson (Abe's daughter, Beulah) said she believed him to be one of the kindest, most thoughtful men she had ever met."

On the other hand, my other great-granddad served on the Union side for Kansas; fought in many, many battles and would never speak a word of it no matter how often his children begged for stories. He wouldn't even let them get out his sword. As he and his family lived south of Kansas city, I would imagibe they were not far from Lawrence. I'll have to look it up on the map.

So, it's a little odd thinking the two of them may have actually fought against each other, although Abe was mostly in West Virginia, from what I know, so probably not.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 11:41 AM

It is a funny thing about outlaws. They often seem to lead very separate double lives.

I have no doubt that Quantrill was probably very tender toward his wife.

Jesse James was quite the family man, and when he lived in Nashville for a time, a respected businessman as well. The house he lived in, on what is now Boscobel Street in East Nashville, is still there, or at least it was a few years ago. (There may be a gas station on it now, or some such.)

Al Capone apparently had a soft spot for children and often gave them money out of his pockets.

The Civil War on the Kansas/Missouri border, and the events leading up to the War, are pretty darn interesting. There was a lot more to the War than Gettysburg. And it was the War that gave rise to such folk "heroes" as Jesse James.

"The Long Riders" is an excellent movie about the James brothers (with a really cool soundtrack); and a newer movie, "Ride With the Devil" gives a pretty good picture of what things were like on the Kansas/Missouri border, even if it is fiction.

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 09:55 PM

Thanks, Kim. I know I've seen the Long Riders, but it was a while ago. I've wondered about the new one.

Things just got a little stranger for me. I called Dad tonight to ask him more. He told me my granddad was in Lawrence, KS once and made a remark about his grandfather helping to burn the place down back when. He quickly learned he should have kept quiet as he almost got "rode out of town." So, it seems my great-great-grandfather rode with Quantrell and participated in the massacre at Lawrence.

Of course, my dad also had to add that history is written by the victors and there's never been much mention about what the "red-legs" did down South. I didn't tell him much about this first hand account and didn't ask what he meant by "red-legs" as it was getting late in the day for him. Can anyone shed any light? I did tell him that more and more history is coming to light with the years in between growing longer. I shall ask him what stories he may know of this, another day.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:06 AM

Sherman was seen as a monster in Georgia and throughout the South too, so it all depends which side of the line you're on, and at what time.

The language of the time is a good deal more melodramatic than what one might hear nowadays, which makes for an interesting look into how the human mindset has changed.

For instance, there's a part about the dark, forbidding wilderness (where Quantrill hid out), not trodden by man or domesticated beast...as if to say, what could be more horrible than that!

Hmmm....sounds like Indian country to me. Pity there isn't more land left like that.

- LH

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:50 AM

I was adding this info to my book and remembered to find out more about "red legs." Thought those of you who are interested might enjoy the following excerpts. Both have a bit of a different take on things:

From the US Genweb Kansas library archives; transcribed from volume II of Kansas: a cyclopedia of state history, embracing events, institutions, industries, counties, cities, towns, prominent persons, etc. ... / with a supplementary volume devoted to selected personal history and reminiscence. Standard Pub. Co. Chicago : 1912. 3 v. in 4. : front., ill., ports.; 28 cm. Vols. I-II edited by Frank W. Blackmar. Transcribed July 2002 by Carolyn Ward. (there's more, good info there):

"Red Legs.—During the early part of the Civil war western Missouri was infested with bands of guerrillas, and it was no uncommon occurrence for some of these lawless gangs to cross the border and commit depredations in Kansas. To guard against these incursions, and otherwise to aid the Union cause, a company of border scouts was formed sometime in the year 1862. As it was an independent organization, never regularly mustered into the United States service, no official record of it has been preserved. The men composing the company became known as "Red Legs," from the fact that they wore leggings of red or tan-colored leather. Wilder, in his Annals of Kansas (p. 956), says it was a secret Union military society, that it was organized in June, 1862, and numbered 163 men, with George H. Hoyt as commander. John M. Dean, who was a member of the company, says it was organized in Oct., 1862. Connelley, in his Quantrill and the Border Wars, says it was organized by Gens. Ewing and Blunt for desperate service along the border, and George W. Martin, secretary of the Kansas Historical Society, in Volume XI of the Kansas Historical Collections (p. 279), says the Red Legs were organized in Dec., 1862, or Jan., 1863, and that there were never less than 50 nor more than 100 of them."

And, from Missouri and the Civil War"When President Lincoln sent in the Federal Occupational troops, these men took full advantage of their position and soon began traumatizing much of Western and West Central Missouri by committing unspeakable crimes. Innocent families became their victims, including women, children and the elderly. These troops became known as the Red Legs and were under the command of General Blunt and Kansas Senator Jim Lane. They were joined by Jayhawkers, who were Kansan free-state guerilla fighters opposed to Missouri during the Border War."

My dad added the story that said Quantrell was held prisoner and made to watch while his sister and mother were raped to death, which then caused him to be so revengeful, but who knows if there is any truth to that. On the second website listed above, there is a link to Quantrill's(sic) bio which states "He would not accept any man into his band unless they were seeking revenge for themselves or for their families for injuries that had been inflicted on them by the Union Army or the jayhawkers. This was in contrast to William's own personal history and therefore he made up a story to gain the confidence of his men." The story follows and is about his "brother" dying from injuries inflicted by Jayhawkers. Quantrell had no brother.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 02:33 PM

Kat; I strongly urge that you rent the film "Ride With The Devil". Of course it is fiction and more sympathetic to the Southron cause than "The Longriders" which is a short take on the "outlaws" of Missouri (sometimes called The Outlaw State). The music is good (though Ry Cooder left out Cole Younger's auto-biographical "confession" song which he performed at many a county fair after his release from prison)and includes an on-camera (but too brief) performance of "I'm a Good Old Rebel" by Mitch Greenhill.

Ride With the Devil's music is quite nice as well and it has Toby McGuire, Jewel and Skeet Ulrich as stars and was directed by Ang Lee!

I am just starting to read a biography of Jesse James (Last Rebel of the Civil War) by T.J. Stiles. The basic premise of the book is James (and others of less criminal repute) was literally continuing the war with a hope of re-establishing at least a remnant Confederacy.

Here in rural Missouri, these matters still generate lively and partisan discussions.

"Gods and Generals" has been well received here as well.

CB

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Qauntrell & KS
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 03:10 PM

Thanks, CB! I will rent that movie very soon. I love Ang Lee's directing! Thanks for your comments.

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 06:40 PM

CB and KimC, we just finished watching "Ride with the devil." Thank you both for recommending it. It was quite good. I would have preferred a bit more music, but did catch a quick glance of a limberjack and homemade banjo that looked pretty authentic. It was kind of weird to watch knowing what I do, now, of my ancestors' parts in all of this. Brought it much more home to me and gave me a lot to think about. I thought the writing was really well done esp. the character of Daniel Holt and his relationship with the others. What an incredible time in our nation's history.

The only thing I would take issue with was the fact that Quantrell was on a white horse. My dad learned from his granddad and dad that no self-respecting outlaw or otherwise would ride a white horse as they are too easily seen at night. I know it's only Hollywood, but it seemed an important thing, unless of course Quantrell was suicidal by then or just didn't care.:-)

Thanks, again,

kat

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:07 PM

Late response:

I urge one and all to read T.J. Stiles biography of Jesse James. (Jesse James)

It is a masterful work of historical writing and brings Missouri history between the years 1845 and 1882 to life as none other I have read.

T.J. Stiles was born and raised in Northfield, Minnesota.

Jesse Woodson James was certainly dedicated to a resurgence of the Confederacy and the continuation of the institution of slavery as well. James comes across as an adept manipulator of public opinion who used his contacts in the press and in political office to good effect. After reading Stiles' book, James' image of the "Robin Hood" bandit vanishes and in it's place is the portrait of a driven man who was both a racist and terrorist.

The greatest shift, though, was the image of his mother, a sympathetic figure, wounded by the nefarious Pinkerton's in a cowardly attack. She is revealed as a virulently anti-Union harridan calling for blood and vengence and delighting in her sons' bloody activities. Even before the attack which cost her a son (Archie) and her arm Zerelda Samuels championed the vicious butchery of her pro-Union neighbors by her Bushwacker son's and their allies.

Kat is right about the horse. Quantrell rode a black horse according to Stiles, as did "Bloody" Bill Anderson, Jesse's captain.

CB

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:46 PM

I would imagine, though, there may have been times when outlaws rode whatever color horse they could steal. ;-)

Kat, glad you liked the movie. I watched it again myself just the other night.

CB, I will have to read that book.

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:00 PM

Thanks for the further info, CB. I will also look for the book.

Kim, yeah...whatever came to hand was I'm sure the case sometimes.:-)

Subject: RE: Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 11:58 PM

Well, I am back to work on my dad's book and also entering my maternal grandmother's memoirs into my computer. In doing so, I re-read what she had to say about her "Uncle Gus." He was her maternal aunt's husband, from Sweden, "6'1" and blond," and enlisted with her dad, my great-grandfather, in the Union when Kansas went to war.

I decided to google Augustus Kelsey, today, to see if I could find more about "Uncle Gus." Imagine my surprise when the first thing to come up was a website selling his cavalry shell jacket, hat cord, GAR ribbon, and .44 Army Colt. They have a bit of his history, which corraborates my grandma's account of him, too. If you'd like to see the pictures and read the info, please click here.

The stuff has been sold, to the Army, for a new museum in Carlisle, PA! The fellow who sold it has written a cover article about him and his gear for North South Trader's Civil War magazine.

Sure glad my grandma wrote all of this down!

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Folklore: Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 12:27 AM

Anybody have lyrics to the Cathy Barton song about Kate Quantrell? I have three Barton/Para CD's, but don't see that one.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS
From: GUEST,Dale
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 03:32 AM

Ah, you smoked me out, Joe.   This is one I can help on. Note the different web site address for Cathy Barton and Dave Para. It has changed since Mary listed their site earlier in the thread.

http://shorock.com/para/civilwar/jw/kate.htm

Cathy and Dave will be here at the Folk Center for Old-Time String Band Week, August 15-19. http://ozarkfolkcenter.com/events-calendar/special-events/default.asp?ID=219 Got any questions for them? As the link notes, they'll be here all week, as will Alan Jabbour and some of our very favorite local instructors. I am sure we can find time for a subject so close to their hearts.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS
From: JedMarum
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:42 AM

Cool stuff, Kat! Have you more detail about "Uncle Gus" and his travels with the KS Union boys? That is fascinating part of the war to me. I've just written a couple sogs for a movie about Lawrence massacre - one song they'd asked for from the point-of-view of William Quatrill.

I wonder if your family may have more "stuff" from Uncle Gus? My wife's family had a case footlocker full of things, including a diary - from one of her ggg grandfathers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS
From: Big Jim from Jackson
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM

Joe, "Kate's Song" is on Cathy and Dave Para's "Johnny Whistletrigger" album. It is the first of their two albums devoted to the Civil War.
When Jesse James' grave was opened for DNA testing a few years back, a funeral service was held for the reburial of the remains. Cathy and Dave sang at his funeral service! How many folk singers have something like that in their resumes!
There are no better performers of old-time music than Cathy and Dave. They have a huge number of song, old and new, that they perform wonderfully. Great harmonies and peerless musicianship.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 12:12 PM

That is really neat, Big Jim!

Jed, I don't think anything has been passed down in my family, at least through the cousins I know. I am not even sure if Uncle Gus ever remarried or had any other children. Well, scratch that. Just checked at ancestry.com and found he had two children, who survived, before the one my ggrandparents adopted. Interesting, I now find I may have unknown "cousins" in Boulder County, CO! Thanks for asking!

You can read a list of every battle his company encountered during the war at this Natl. Parks site.

He and my ggranfather were part of Company "C" of the 6th Cavalry, Kansas.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Civil War- excerpt on Quantrell & KS
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:59 AM

That account of "The border ruffians by R, H. Wilson is a very good read, the fact that he was Liverpool sailor who was a match for the western `hard-men`,makes this a fascinating story. Thanks Cat.