Origins: John Henry

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 03:21 PM

"appears to have been extant before"

Yes. Persistent and consistent testimony places "John Henry" around 1888, although a few informants claim it is older. I'm not at my office now, where I could check the date of John Hardy's hanging, but, as I recall, it was in the 1890s.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 02:57 PM

"appears to have been extant before" ?

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 02:06 PM

The early confusion of John Hardy with John Henry was recently brought up here again. There are many reasons to believe that they were different people, one of which is that the "John Henry" song appears to have been extant before John Hardy's crime was committed.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Dec 01 - 01:43 PM

Guest djc, every time I see the word "docudrama," I run the other way. Most are speculation and nonsense, dressed up to appeal to the lowest common denominator in the public. Garst has endulged in much speculation in this thread, but has failed to put forth evidence to support his theories.
"Informants" were mentioned in his last post. A parallel situation is outlined in "Folk Songs of the South" by J. H. Cox, 1925, a respected folklorist of his day. The governor of West Virginia from 1893-1897, in a letter, said John Hardy was a "steel-driver and was famous in the beginning of the C & O Railroad. It was about 1872 that he was in this section." The letter goes on to describe his prowess. A Mr. Walker reported a "current belief" about John Hardy, working for a railroad contractor named Langhorn, working on the Big Bend Tunnel. The contractor on the other side of the tunnel had a steam drill. A wager was made that Hardy could drill a hole in less time than the steam drill. Hardy won but died. Some of the ballads, however, go on to describe a John Hardy who later became a gambler and murdered a man.
Cox wrote a thesis (Harvard Univ.) and an article with material "showing" that John Hardy was the steel driving man of the ballads. I haven't seen the thesis, but the material in the book on folk songs contains only information from "informants." This is another good story but several scholars have thrown cold water on it, as well.
To quote one of the best advertisements on TV recently, "Where's the beef?" I prefer the John Hardy tale, and could make a "docudrama" out of it as well.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 23 Dec 01 - 05:59 AM

I must agree with BanjoRay (28 Nov. 01) as to the necessity of information sources, facts, deductions and etc. so the world can make it's mind up about who John Henry was and where the various tunnels in various states fit in, because I am somewhat of a truth addict myself.

In fact I live in Leeds, AL and have recently read in "only" the area Leeds News that a local movie mogul named Jerry Voyles plans to make a movie/docudrama about the life and times of John Henry based on the research of Dr. John Garst that "John Henry was a real man, and not a fable that worked and died on the Oak Mountain Tunnel in the Dunnavant area of Leeds" where he battled the steam driver. I thought than a docudrama was based on some degree of fact?

So far based on the limited information (which is normal) reported in the Leeds News, I noted nothing more than hearsay, speculation, supposition and conjecture woven together with convoluted logic as to the relationship between Leeds, AL and the legend of John Henry. Recently these gentlemen (Garst and Voyles) stated to the Leeds city council that their proposed movie would "help put Leeds on the map".

I would hope that before some definitive movie was made as an issue of fact that some form of academic proof would be offered as evidence of the supposed conclusions with an opportunity of academic and/or legal rebuttal. Otherwise this supposed factorial movie/docudrama appears to be nothing more than an attempt to promote a tourist attraction….$$$$. After all there are other areas in the country, for whatever reasons, that have claimed a John Henry connection first.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 05:37 PM

I was asked if a publication were planned.

I think that Tributaries: Journal of the Alabama Folklife Association, will probably publish an article, "Chasing John Henry in Alabama and Mississippi," in the spring of 2002. The primary facts are:

(1) In about 1927 C. C. Spencer sent Guy Johnson a very detailed story about John Henry.

(2) I have confirmed a number of details of Spencer's story.

(3) Spencer's story is also supported by other informants, not only the two others who wrote Johnson, but also a long and strong local tradition in the vicinity of Leeds, AL. Citizens there can take you to the spot where "John Henry fell dead."

(4) The scenario I gave in my post is Spencer's story, corrected and augmented by a few facts and considerable speculation.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: BanjoRay
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 05:26 PM

That's a lot of material for a suspicion, Guest John. That looks like the result of a lot of research - do you have or will you produce a paper that contains all your sources, facts, deductions etc so the world can make it's mind up about who John Henry was and where the various tunnels in various states fit in. I, for one, would really like to know - being a truth addict, as well as someone who loves the song.

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,John Garst
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:47 PM

I suspect that:

John Henry, b 1847-63, was a slave owned by Thomas Dabney at Burleigh Plantation, Dry Grove, MS. Thomas' nephew, Frederick Yeamans Dabney, b 1834-35, studied engineering at Rensallear and went into the railroad construction business before the Civil War. At the end of the war, he left the Confederate Army as a Captain, settled in Crystal Springs, MS (12 mi sse of Dry Grove), where he was universally called "Captain Dabney," and resumed his railroad construction business. John Henry took the name of his owner's family, Dabney, and joined Captain Dabney's crew as a laborer. At some point he learned steel driving.

In early 1887 (or possibly late 1886), John Henry joined Captain Dabney in the construction of the Columbus and Western RR, from Goodwater, AL, to Birmingham. It was tunneled through Oak and Coosa Mountains, just south of Leeds, AL. Captain Dabney was Chief Engineer for the C & W. John Henry worked on the construction of the tunnels as a steel driver.

In mid-1887 the Coosa Tunnel ran into problems. They hit a peculiar hard granite layer that was very difficult to drill. On this account, the opening of the C & W would be delayed for months.

Captain Dabney considered the use of a steam drill. An agent from New York came down to pitch his machine. When Captain Dabney said that he had a man who could beat the steam drill, the agent offered a one-sided bet. He was very confident that this could not be, and he was also anxious to demonstrate his machine and make a sale. He offered to give Captain Dabney the steam drill if Dabney's man could beat it.

Arrangements were made over the course of a few weeks. On Tuesday, September 20, 1887, a hot muggy day with threatening rain, the contestants met outside the east portal of Oak Mountain Tunnel for their all-day match. At the end of the day, John Henry collapsed in a dead faint. He was revived by water thrown on him, but he was blind and he thought he was dying. He called for his wife, who was summoned and came. "Have I beat that old steam drill?" he asked, as his wife cradled the dying man's head.

Indeed he had. He had made 27 1/2', the steam drill 21'. The agent lost his steam drill and Captain Dabney lost John Henry, his best steel driver ("Champion of the world," one contemporary said). The steam drill was put to work on Coosa Mountain Tunnel, but it was nonetheless delayed by 6 months. The line finally opened on July 1, 1888.

John Henry's wife, who had cooked for some of the men in the railroad camp, stayed with some of the crew in that capacity when they went to West Virginia to work on the Elkhorn Tunnel, which was also completed in 1888.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From:
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM

"Crystal" asked some questions. I can now give some ***speculative*** (but not totally unsupported) answers.

"When was john Henry Born?"

ca 1860

"When Did he die?"

September 20, 1887

"Where did he live?"

Crystal Springs, Mississippi

"Do you know?"

Now, what kind of question is that?!

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Andrew S
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 03:07 AM

If you listen to the lyrics of John Hurt's "Spike Driver's moan"

"This is the hammer that kill John Henry, Lord it won't kill me"

You realize that Hurt knew that this "hero" died working for "the man" and John Hurt didn't want the same kind of fate.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,CRYSTAL
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:09 PM

Where did he live? when did he die? when was he born?

Subject: John Henry
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:59 PM

When was john Henry Born? When Did he die? Where did he live? Do you know?

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From:
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM

Mark Clark wrote:

"... At any rate, if the tunnel was ever finished, John Henry's drill can't still be stuck in the last hole he made."

(1) Sure it could, if the hole being drilled was for a contest held outside the construction area, which is where the drill was in 1930 (and may still be).

(2) Others have spoken of the horizontal angle at which the drill was held. My information is that it was held that way *sometimes*. Holes were drilled at all angles, from straight down to straight up and points in between. The early steam drills could only drill straight down. A contest between one of these and a hand driller would likely have involved straight down holes. The drill sticking in the rock outside the east portal of Oak Mountain Tunnel, Shelby County, AL, is in such a hole.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 11:26 AM

The myth goes on.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,TalcottMan
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:46 AM

Howdy, I was born and raised in Talcott, West Virginia. One mile from the big bend tunnels. My mothers people were there for generations. They all worked on the railroad.(Along with most men of the area). My grandfateher and uncles helped build Big Ben Tunnel and their father worked on Great Bend Tunnel(Later named that, it was the original big ben tunnel). Unlike some things I have read, Talcott was not a violent area at all. The crew often boxed and played baseball after working. And yes, John Henry was a real man. He didn't play the banjo, and he didn't sing baritone. He was a mute. No one knew his name, so he was called 'John Henry'. He was a large man and a strong worker. There were also two other black men on the crew. All three were worked to death building the tunnel. From what I was told, they were not treated in a very humane manner.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 02:14 PM

To those who continue to search for "The Real John Henry" I think I know more about him than what is now published or suspected.

I live in a wood frame farm house (in Virginia) that I think that he built. This was long after his famous race with the steam drill. Though many parts of the puzzle that was his life, remain unknown, what I do know is a glorious extention of the origional folklore. It reflects the true strength of this man and his race. Not only should he be celebrated for his victory in that tunnel the day he beat the steam drill, but his victory over the tyranny to which he was origionally subjected.

Please contact me by email if any of you want to know more about this truly great black man. By the way, he was knowned to be very "light-skinned" this may have lead to the questions about his race by "witnesses" of the origional events.

wlb

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM

From the description, the drill could be only an exhibit.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Mark Clark
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 10:57 AM

Well that would make sense. I doubt they wanted all the blasting holes to be five feet off the ground. At any rate, if the tunnel was ever finished, John Henry's drill can't still be stuck in the last hole he made.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: IanC
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 05:26 AM

Mark

I think you'll find, if you read the sources, that the Shaker often held the steel between his thighs.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:29 PM

Please correct me if I'm wrong but John Henry wan't a spike driver, he was a steel (or drill) driver. The long steel star dril was held horizontally by another man, called the shaker, who held the drill point against the rock face and gave it a little twist with each blow so the drill would't bind in the hole.

John Henry said to his shaker,
He said shaker you'd better pray,
Cause if I miss the drill with this nine pound hammer,
Tomorrow'll be your buryin' day, Lord, Lord,
Tomorrow'll be your buryin' day.

The shaker, using both hands, held the drill over one shoulder so that if the driver (John Henry) missed the drill, the hammer would likely strike the back of the shaker's head. When enough holes had been drilled, they were packed with explosive charges and the rock was blasted away. When the rubble was cleared, the drill team would begin drilling new holes deeper into the developing tunnel.

If John Henry's drill is still there stuck in the rock, it would have to be hanging horizontally out of a hole at the end of an unfinished tunnel about fifteen feet deep.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:35 AM

...on a lighter note, somewhere I have a "Little Golden Record" with "Casey Jones" on one side and "John Henry" on the flip side. The illustration on the paper jacket depicts a fanciful image of Casey Jones waving out the window of his engine with John Henry standing by the track waving back. "Little Golden Records" were childrens' 78 RPMs prevalent in the 1950s. How's that for mixing your mythic archetypes?

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 07:41 PM

Luke, what are your authorities that he really did live?

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Luke
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:11 PM

Not sure if it's of interest but I perform in a play about John Henry in which we perform the JH song at the very end of the play. Upon doing research and reading the books above mentioned, we figured theres alot more to know than anyone can figure. Not only did he really live, but did he really die in the contest. Since we could not find any recored of his death we decided to let him live in the end. there were no death certificates or headstones anywhere to prove otherwise.

Luke

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:11 PM

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From:
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM

Erratum:

I wrote

"A few of Johnson's informants insisted that he was, in fact, white."

Not so, as far as my perusal of Johnson's book indicates. It was Chappell, John Henry (1933), who turned up a number of informants who insisted that the historic John Henry was white.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From:
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 11:49 AM

Peter Turner, asked, on 12-Feb-98, "Does anyone know what "John Henry" is really about? Its first impression is of the power of the human spirit and the often inspiring nature of tragedy. This interpretation makes us take the song at its word. But I've heard it argued that we should be more skeptical in interpreting the lyrics, that the song actually works in favor of the railroad bosses and against the men who work for them...."

Phillips Barry has argued that the John Henry text and tune show strong white influences - elements of the text may derive from old British ballads and the tune is identified with one used by mountain whites for the ballad "Earl Brand" (Child No. 7).

The oldest known version of "John Henry, The Steel Driving Man," may be the one on the Blankenship broadside, believed by Guy Benton Johnson to date to 1900 or before. (However, MacEdward Leach suspects that it is "from the twenties.")

The Blankenship broadside contains language that is more literary than that usually recovered from singers. Although Leach suspects that it is the work of a "hack writer to capitalize on a growing popularity of John Henry," I think it could be the other way around - the folk versions could have sprung from a more literary source.

In any event, I think that the Blankenship broadside is relevant to the point Peter makes. I quote the first two verses below.

John Henry was a railroad man,
He worked from six 'til five,
"Raise 'em up bullies and let 'em drop down,
I'll beat you to the bottom or die."

John Henry said to his captain:
"You are nothing but a common man,
Before that steam drill shall beat me down,
I'll die with my hammer in my hand."

Here "Raise 'em up bullies and let 'em drop down" sounds much more British, to me, than American Negro speech.

Verse two is the killer. Where most collected versions have John Henry saying to his captain, "A man ain't nothing but a man, etc."; here he says "You are nothing but a common man, etc." In the first instance, John Henry is talking about himself - he means "I am nothing but a man," meaning "I'm not superhuman." In the Blankenship broadside, saying to the captain, "You are nothing but a common man, etc.," seems to mean "You're just a man, but even so, I'm so dedicated to you that I'm going to beat that steam drill for you."

This is the kind of attitude in blacks that whites admired, of course, so it can be seen as a natural effusion of a white author.

Of course, this whole discussion assumes that John Henry was black. There's nothing in the Blankenship broadside to indicate that, nor is there is most versions. A few of Johnson's informants insisted that he was, in fact, white. If he was white, that changes the whole thing a little.

Even so, the fact of the matter is that most blacks who sang the song thought of him as black. No wonder they changed "You are nothing but a common man" to "A man ain't nothin' but a man."

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From:
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 08:16 PM

I have found a photograph of the drill that stood, in 1930 and perhaps now, in a rock just outside the east portal of Oak Mountain Tunnel, near Leeds, Alabama. This is supposed to have been the drill that John Henry was driving when he died, and it is supposed to have been left in position all these years since 1887-88, when he met the steam drill there. What else would account for a drill standing embedded in rock? Obviously there was no intention of blasting the rock away, or another hole would have been drilled, in the event that the first drill got stuck in its hole. On the other hand, if there were a contest held there, then there ought to be another hole in the rock somewhere nearby. I've not been there, so I can't comment on this point.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,voyager
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 11:08 AM

Folk Tale Anecdote Department..

During a round of "Boy Scout Jeopardy" - Category 'Tall Tales'

the answer read
"This steel driver beat a steam-powered drill in a contest
To carve out the side of a mountain"

Scout Shouted Out

I know....HARRIET TUBMAN

For more research see ...
http://discoverytheater.si.edu/jhenry/jhbg1.htm

voyager
FSGW Ghetto

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: IanC
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 01:33 PM

Dicho

I've given 2 of the standard sources above, but there's quite a lot since. If you like I'll put it in under "People" in my Basic Folk Library.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 04:47 PM

What "literature" is IanC talking about? There was much interest in "John Henry" in the 1920s-early 1930s. Perhaps the best book of that time was Johnson's "John Henry." Several writers have referred to the Negro RR workmen of the late 19th century; one suggested that a prototype could be buried at a VA prison site where a number of railroad workers were buried (all without names attached). The Britannica indicates that there "could" be a factual basis to John Henry; the Big Bend tunnel in West Virginia dates are 1870-1873, near the end of the steel-drivers day since the steam drill was "introduced to the South in 1870.". Dr. J. H. Cox, one time archivist of the W. Va. Folklore Soc., wrote in 1925 that the version collected by Prof. Combs in Kentucky was wholly about the steel driving incident, thus may have been composed before John Hardy committed the murder, and could be the oldest.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,John Garst
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 03:57 PM

>I Believe I read that John's death was greatly exagerated, >he did beat the drill and did not die doing so.

Possibly, but you can't believe what you read. The few reports that said he lived on are, as I recall, from Big Bend advocates. As I stated before, I think that the evidence gathered by Johnson and Chappell comes close to ruling out this location (by not solidly confirming it), so I consider it to be a very unlikely possibility and the Big Bend informants to be an unreliable bunch. There is disagreement on John Henry's death among them.

None of Johnson's three Alabama informants claimed that John Henry lived on. Two of them specifically said that he died on the spot, including the one who claimed to have been an eye-witness to the contest, among the "about three to four hundred people present."

Chappell cites Newton Redwine: "John Henry the steel driving champion was a native of Alabama and from near Bessemer or Blackton...For several years John Henry worked around the iron mining region of Alabama...." He goes on to put John Henry at many other places and has him dying in the construction of a tunnel at Kings Mountain (KY or TN). Redwine agrees with Johnson's Alabama informants only in placing John Henry in the Birminham area. Another Chappell informant, J. W. Washington, says that John Henry did most of his steel driving in Alabama.

Interestingly, a report to Chappell from Jamaica says "The following names are known:- Dabner, in charge of blasting operations. John Henry, checking up cuts and embankments. Shea, Engineer in charge. Tommy Walters, Assistant Pay Master."

Two of Johnson's Alabama informants mention Shea/Shay and Dabner/Dabney. Another Johnson informant, Leon R. Harris, says that he has "tried faithfully to get the story of John Henry...But I have failed. Anyone who tries will fail. I believe, however, that the following are facts: ('facts' 1-5 are listed) "These are probabilities: (1-3) "4. His 'captain's' name was Tommy Walters - probably an assistant foreman, however."

Certain names, Dabner/Dabney, Shea/Shay, Tommy Walters, seem to crop up from widely scattered sources. The first two of these are mentioned by Johnson's Alabama informants. These names might be keys to further understanding the possible historical background of the ballad.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 11:24 AM

Gimme a cool drink of water 'fore I die.
I Believe I read that John's death was greatly exagerated, he did beat the drill and did not die doing so.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,John Garst
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 11:03 AM

A brief follow-up on heat exhaustion and water:

One informant said that John Henry raced the steam drill on September 20, 1882, at "Cruzee" Mountain Tunnel on the A. G. S. line. Coosa Mountain Tunnel, also known as Long Tunnel, was built by the C&W. Another informant said 1887, which is consistent with the actual construction dates. I wonder if an error in transcription of handwriting converted a "7" in the letter of the first informant to a "2." In any event, if the competition took place on September 20 (of any year), that is not so late in the year that it could not be very hot and humid in central Alabama, setting up the most favorable conditions for a death from heat exhaustion.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,John Garst
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 10:55 AM

Korey Stringer is another "John Henry." His death brings home the very real threat of heat exhaustion. As I heard a doctor on TV describe it, you stop sweating, your body temperature goes to around 108 degrees, your cells die (baked), and that means you die. Korey didn't want to appear weak, I suspect. He probably wanted to set a good example for rookies. It may be that he didn't drink enough water. It takes time to drink water. Maybe time was too important.

John Henry could easily have felt that way. He couldn't stop hammering for a drink of water because it was so important to him that he beat the steam drill. He beat it, and collapsed from heat exhaustion, just like Korey.

When you hear those old work songs, calling for the water boy, don't imagine some romantic fluff. Imagine a vitally important function - if the laborers don't get water, they die. Don't think that the water boy's job was easy, either. Try carrying significant amounts of water significant distances, over and over, for 8 hours or more. If that doesn't do it for you, try carrying it uphill.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 10:41 AM

No , Ian there is purportedly a photo. I haven't seen it and I am not sure about 1880's photography, but, I have been meaning to order the book.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: IanC
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 09:47 AM

GUEST

Thank god for some intelligent input.

DJH - the only picture of John Henry is the one of his statue (see above) erected in 1970. The picture on the stamp is also taken from this. As I said above, there were loads of men called John Henry, and different people seem to have remembered different ones!

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 09:42 AM

If John Died of love making as has been suggested, wouldn't it have been a masterbatory act, after all "he died with his hammer in his hand". LAWD, LAWD

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 09:23 AM

John did really live.There is allegedly a real picture of the John in an old book about folks songs. I am sorry I don't remember the name, if I find it I will post it.
The Big bend tunnel was Wet rock ,had it been dry the steam drill probably would have won. The mud and clay clogged up the drill frequently.
Railraod work was as good as it got for a black man in the 1870's, So it is not propaganda for the boss man.The later Spike Driver Blues took the stance- (paraphrasing) "workin' to death like John was not what I had in mind , tell the captain I'm gone.",but, John Henry is simply about natural man vs the mechanistic age.
There is a book in my local library from the 20's simply titled "John Henry" in it the author points out that there were a few men named John Henry workin on the railroad. The author comes down on the side of there was a contest although I can't recall his arguments this morning. It may be one of the books others have spoken of in this thread.
The thing I found most interesting about the book was that one of the women interviewed was named Rosalee? Cannon and she spoke about learning the song from her uncle Gus who was a songster over in Memphis = Gus Cannon of Cannon's Jug Stompers. The author , of course, didn't realize that her uncle was an American music legend because he wasn't yet. I love that book , I am the only one who has checked it out in a decade , multiple times.
I love the tale and the many variants on the song so much I named my band "John Henry's Hammer".
Sorry I am all over the place this morn.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: IanC
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 04:50 AM

Dicho

I think it might be worth spending a little time reading the corpus of research work on John Henry before you bring us back to this old "John Hardy/John Henry" red herring. It's been well covered in the literature and the prettywell universal agreement is that the transformation was the other way round - via common "floating verses".

This thread (and the others on the subject) isn't my favourite ... basically because I spent a great deal of time about 2-3 years ago in researching the question by reading the 3 main books written in the 20s on the subject and all the subsequent literature available in the libraries and on the net. The same notions which get well quashed by various good studies keep coming up here. I'm not meaning John Garst's well-intentioned and obviously well researched attempts at proving a Georgia provenance here.

For what it's worth, I have two pieces of advice for anyone wanting to make a serious contribution to this discussion. (1) Read what has already been written before you form your own conclusions. There is plenty on this subject, much of it well researched and helpful. (2) Never try to find confirmatory evidence for a view you hold ... you'll only find yourself stretching the evidence to suit your hypothesis. Logically, things can never be fully confirmed, only disproved.

Now I've had my 2d worth of grouch. I'm sorry if this causes anyone any offence ... it wasn't intended to.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,toadfrog
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 11:23 PM

When I first noticed this thread, I took it for a new one, and was rejoicing to see Bruce O back. To bad I was wrong. He's got a real good point there. Listening to folk songs sure beats hell out of reading some enthusiast's "interpretation" of said songs. Folk music understates what romanticism overstates.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 08:47 PM

Now- was there another RR man with first name possibly John Henry and the song variants extended to him? Or was the story passed on to cover other strong men on the railroad and in the mines? This transfer has happened in songs before; John Hardy was transformed to cover different men, times and places.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 08:39 PM

The original was "John Hardy." W. A. McCorkle, governor of West Virginia 1893-1897, wrote "He [John Hardy] was a steel-driver and was famous in the beginning of the building of the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad. He was also a steel-driver in the beginning of the extention of the N & W Railroad. It was about 1872 that he was in this section. This was before the day of steam drills...he was reported to be six feet two and weighed two hundred and twenty-five or thirty pounds...was one of the handsomest men in the country, and, as one informant told me, was as black as a kittle in hell." The story is carried on by John Knox Smith, a Negro lawyer who was present at the trial and execution of John Hardy. John had been working at the Shawnee Coal Co. after his steel-driving days. "...One payday night he killed a man in a crap game over a dispute of twenty-five cents. Before the game began, he laid his pistol on the table , saying to it "Now I want you to lay here; and the first nigger that steals money from me, I mean to kill him." This came to pass. ...Hardy was as black as a crow [the rest similar to McCorkle's description]. All this, and much more, in Cox, Folk Songs of the South (West Virginia almost exclusively, with many variants of Child songs). When this tale metamorphosed into John Henry I don't know. Nine versions of John Hardy are printed in entirety (earliest 1890s), only one, collected in 1924, named John Henry.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,John Garst
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 06:23 PM

The Alabama connection needs more work, and I have starting on that project. Here's what I've found so far.

Guy Johnson's "Cruzee/Cursey" Tunnel in Alabama, which he nor anyone else has located until now, is really the Coosa Tunnel, which was constructed 1886-88 by Columbus and Western Railway line, who were completing the rail connection between Columbus, GA, and Birmingham, AL. Note how close "C&W" is to "C&O." Some of Johnson's informants mentioned Oak Mountain Tunnel, which is on the same line just north (2 miles?) of the Coosa Mountain Tunnel, just as they said. These locations are east and a bit south of Birmingham.

Red Mountain, also mentioned by these informants, is nearby, too. It is just east of Birmingham, and I suspect that the C&W might have tunneled there, too, although I haven't confirmed this yet.

The Blankenship broadside was recovered in the mid-1920s from a woman living in Rome, GA. According to a white pages search, there are 26 Blankenships now living in Rome (with telephones). I don't yet know whether or not any of these are related to W. T. Blankenship, who produced the broadside of John Henry. Rome is less than 100 miles northeast of Coosa and Oak Mountain Tunnels.

One of the Alabama informants claimed that there was a crowd of about 500 standing around watching the competition. If that were so, then I believe that it would have been covered in local newspapers. I intend to launch a search soon of Birmingham and vicinity newspapers (and Rome newspapers).

As for Big Bend Tunnel in WV, I think it significant that that intensive searches for John Henry there failed. Those who still favor that location have to ignore a tremendous number of negative reports and inconsistencies among the second/third/fourth-hand positive ones. I think that the Big Bend possibility has been dead ever since the investigations of Johnson and Louis Chappell.

Alabama hasn't failed, at least yet, so I think that it should be considered the favorite possibility at this time.

John Garst [e-mail]

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,Hope Danie
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 01:02 PM

I have a little boy in my summerschool class by the name of John Henry. He is disabled due to an accident when he was a young child of about two. He is african american and quite small and wirey. I got on the net and started looking about for some info on John Henry the legend I remembered singing about in elementary school. The sites I have located have been wonderful. There is one site with an animated movie that you can download. When John Henry wakes up from his nap he will be so excited to know he is named after an eight foot tall, strong steel driver from the 1800's. Thanks for all of the interesting stories!!

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 11:46 PM

Hi Jacob, I couldn't agree with you more. Prior to railroading, cowboying was a place where black men could scratch out a living while giving themselves a sense of selfworth in less opressing enviorment. Here again they've left their fading mark in song, though Lomax states that some estimates site their numbers to be as high as 25% of cowboys were black (he doesn't say where & goverment census were quite a bit lower) & that their numbers were also well represented among the ranchers, herders& drovers. I haven't found anything that mentions that this type of livelyhood supported any type of Afro American community, though it would seem that railroading did, just as much as sea realated employment prior to the 1860's did. Where interestingly enough the gov. census do reflect their numbers to be as high in certain yrs. & places as high as 25%, here again we find their fading mark in song. I'd say that they're are many different reasons that John Henry & other folk heros were so important to the culture that spawned them. Barry

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Jacob B
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 11:24 AM

I suspect that, at the time it was written, John Henry was not considered "a song against the mechanization of industry." John Henry would not have minded giving up his job swinging a hammer for a better-paying job operating a steam drill - but there wasn't the faintest possibility that he would get that job. By trying to prove to his boss that he could do a better job than the machine that the steam drill salesman was selling, John Henry was trying to prevent an entire community of black men from losing their jobs to a few white men, operating machines.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,Jennifer
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 02:23 AM

Being a musicologist with the maiden name of Henry, this is a subject which has interested me for years. I know for a fact the origins of my cousin Johnny Henry who is a rock musician & D J in Tulsa, OK. However, facts about the John Henry of song fame continue to be elusive and probably will be for another 100 years. While often confused with John Hardy the murder, I have found the John henry of the song fame in dozens of versions. They have him driving steel on the Air Line, the K. C., the Frisco, (on which my grandfather worked in Okla-he knew of no such John Henry), the C. & O. Railroads; they call his woman Lucy, Delia Ann, Polly Ann, Sally Ann; he can be found "sittin' on his pappy's knee" or holding his little son "in de palm of his han'." Either a 7 or 9 pound hammer is the death of him. The songs all seem to agree that John Henry battled with the steam drill which threatened to "beat him down"; he toiled mighitly from dawn to sunset; beat the machine as the sun went down, and "died wid a hammer in his han'." I believe there may have been a John Henry who was a railroad worker, however I believe most of the song is fiction and a true folk song ballad-about the life & times of the black railroad worker circa late 1800's.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From:
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 09:59 AM

Ian, please scan it and make it available.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: IanC
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 08:44 AM

I've got the info somewhere, but the statue is based on the legend, not the other way round. It was set up in the 1970s.

I've read both Chappell and Johnson and from the descriptions of people who claimed they had come across him, collected in the 1920s, he was more than one person anyway (very big, very black; small and light skinned etc.). Using the hammer with both hands appears to be a description of ambidextrosity in the earlier sources. Apparently, some of the better hammer men could do this.

The postage stamp portrait is a picture of the statue and, for anyone who wants it, an internet search on "John Henry Days" brings up the Talcott site (which is becoming increasingly more commercial and less informative).

I have a copy of the Blenkinsop broadside copied from Johnson (it's a photographic plate in his book). It scans well if anyone wants it.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,Tim Pridemore
Date: 13 Aug 00 - 06:50 PM

How about a picture of the statue of the real John Henry at Talcot WV...location of the Big Bend Tunnle on the C&O Railroad. For more information dial 1-800-CALL-WVA.

As an old mountain boy from that area I didn't realize until I was in my 20s that there were people who DIDN'T know the story was true