Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale / Allandale

Subject: The Rose of Allendale
From: Mike Byers
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:32 AM

I'm looking for words and music to "The Rose of Allendale". I've been told this is in several books of traditional Scots and Irish music, but haven't been able to find it.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:49 AM

It's certainly in a lot of old songbooks; it's an English composed song of the 19th Century.  The set that everybody knows, though, is the one that came from the Copper family, who changed the tune a bit (for the better) and in that sense it's traditional.  What you need to do is type rose of allendale into the very useful "Digitrad and Forum Search" box on the main Forum page, which will retrieve a long list of discussions here in which it has been mentioned, and quite a few sets of words for it, some more accurate than others.  You can also see a copy of the original arrangement for piano and voice online at the Lester Levy Sheet Music Collection, but I expect you want the Coppers' variant.

A search for rose of allandale will get you more results, mind, including the DT file with midi.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Mike Byers
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:59 AM

Thank you kindly. By the way, I first heard this on a CD by The Social Weevils, "Live at the R&R". The R&R is a tavern in Hanoi, Vietnam... Interesting world, isn't it?

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Louie Roy
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 11:23 AM

Mike,Foster and Allen does a beautiful job on The Rose Of Allendale.The tape is called the very best of Foster And Allen volume # 2 CMR records.Also on the tape are the following,After All These Years--Red River Valley--Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain---The Rose Of Allendale--The Mountain Of Mourne--I Still Love You---When My Blue Moon Turns To Gold Again--When I Dream---Morning Glory---The Old Rustic Mill By The Bridge---I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen---Do You Think You Could Love Me Again---Alice Benbolt---Molly My Lovely Molly---Gentle Annie.The tape cost around $ 13:00.However if you can't find the tape and still want this recording I will record my tape onto a tape and mail to you,if you pay for the tape and mailing.You can contact me at [e-mail] Roy

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Mac Tattie
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 02:43 PM

Foster and Allen? good grief!!!

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: nutty
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 05:55 PM

The song is not traditional but was written by Charles Jeffreys 1807-1865
If you can read the dots, the levy site has some of the original sheet music
ROSE OF ALLANDALE

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: nutty
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:00 PM

I forgot that links to search engines are strange....I'll try again
click here
hopefully all you will have to do is put ALLANDALEin the box and press SEARCH

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:36 PM

I have a three CD set titled, "Festival of Irish Folk," and "Rose of Allendale" sung by Mary Black is on Volume 3. It is available through Colleen Music, a division of Rego Irish Records and Tapes, 64 New Hyde Park Rd, Garden City, NY 11530. A free catalog is available. DougR

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:09 PM

Mary Black, like every other Revival performer who has recorded this song, sings the Copper family's adaptation of it, though she seems to have tried to make it into a Country and Western piece. It's pretty, but a bit watered down as she sings it. I believe that I gave all the information required to find this in my original post, but since Nutty's link to Levy doesn't work, I suppose I should add this:

The Rose of Allandale at The Lester S. Levy Collection of Sheet Music.

As I said earlier, though. that's the original version and probably not what Mike was looking for.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: tremodt
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:14 PM

Rego records is not in business at that location at this time they can be contacted in Troy New York

Paddy Noonan the all Ireland champion acordinist was the owner

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From:
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 11:12 AM

HEre are the entries here in the Database and Forum

Rose of Allandale in Database
 
Rose of Allendale - Forum 1
Rose of Allandale - Forum 2
Rose of Allendale - Forum 3

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Jimmy C
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 11:31 AM

The late great Irish tenor Count John McCormack also recorded this song under the title " Mary of the Highlands", a little slower but still a great version.

Johnny McEvoy, Paddy Reilly, The Dubliners and many others all recorded it. I like McEvoys version the best.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,Dan in Nova Scotia
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:25 AM

Actually you can find another version of the Rose of Allendale on a fabulous cd by Nic Jones called "In Search of ...Nic Jones". I borrowed most of what Nic did and changed it a little to make it fit my style of playing but to me Nic's version is still the best. Cheers,

Dan

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,patty
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 10:26 PM

My cousin informed me today that my great ancestor wrote this song....it is pretty and Im very proud her wrote it--my cousin told me it hangs in the halls of oxford. His name was Jeffery (last name) first name James I think

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:56 AM

CLICKY

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Alec
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:08 AM

I think some of the confusion this song generates is tied up with its allusion to the Highlands.Although in Britain this usually refers to northern Scotland, Allendale is actually in Northumberland
(which is in England)I suspect its author may simply have utilised a placename he liked the sound of. This may be why looking for it amongst traditional Irish & Scottish tends to be fruitless.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:30 AM

Doug, I have Mary Black singing this one too. I like the Corries a lot, but I prefer her version.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: jacqui.c
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:34 AM

Scarpi does a very good version of this song as well.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: guitar
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:25 AM

The Corries also do a version

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,Tom Nelligan
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 10:36 AM

Another very nice recent version of this lovely song, based on the Nic Jones arrangement, comes from the Canadian quartet Jiig (that's not a typographical error -- they're named for the initials of the members), featuring Ian Robb. It's on their self-titled disk from last year.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: skarpi
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

Heres the chords


D,G,D,A
D,G,D,A,D

oh the flower.............
D,G,D,Bm,D,A
D,G,D,A,D.

sweet rose of.......
D,G,Em,A
D,G,D,A,D.



all the best skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 10:57 AM

In the Good Old days before Mike Harding , Folk on Two did an expose on Rose of Allandale . As I recall , they had sheet music from about 1840 by Jeffreys and Nelson , and had a Pianist and tenor perform the song , then played Martin Carthy singing it as HE got it from The Coppers (Bob and Ron) in 1960 .
Not trying to put Nic Jones down , but would Antie Beeb broadcast a total untruth ? Any one able to check with Mr Carthy and Mr Jones ?
What was stated was , that it was a popular parlour song in the 1840's and was part of the Copper family's repertoire , and one of the songs that Grandfather wrote out in his book in the mid 1920's .

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:41 AM

There are innumerable threads (and myths) floating about on the subject of Rose Of Allendale. Martin Carthy did get it from the Coppers, as did Nic Jones a few years later. Both use the Coppers tune which is a slight variation (and improvement) on the sheet music. As I wrote in this thread (Nic Jones, did he popularise Rose Of Allendale?), the Nic Jones recording of the song with Bandoggs is obviously unavailable though it had been in his repertoire long before that. I first heard him do it round about 1969/70 when Fred Jordan was doing it too but it had long fallen out of Martin Carthy's sets. Thus, the only obtainable Nic Jones recording is the live one on In Search Of, and it is quite clear from the arrangement that all subsequent revival recordings stem from Nic's arrangement.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:54 AM

Whatever The Corries are doing to the song, I am not impressed. That speed and meter just don't seem to me to 'fit' the mood of the song.
I know, sometimes it's the 'first' version you hear of a song that sets your preferences, but having heard maybe 20-25 people & groups sing it, I just prefer the slower, quieter ways. It doesn't have to be precisely an imitation of The Coppers, but they had the right idea.

(Those who have have heard my wife do it with zither may know what I mean...*smile*)

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:55 AM

I think 'Leadfingers' may have mistaken this rather old thread (one of many on the subject, and revived the other day after 5 years' inactivity by a lady who presumably wandered in via an external search engine) for the most recent one, which is at

nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?

Perhaps we ought to let this old discussion sink back into oblivion; there is nothing much here that hasn't been said before and since. If 'Guest Patty' would like to know more, there is a list of other discussions of the song here at the top of this page.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:34 PM

First of all I am a confirmed Corries Fanboy Geek. I also very much like The Rose of Allendale. The Corries do an exceedingly poor job of it. This song is all about emotion and the singer. Mary Black is beautiful and has a voice that suits her well but not this particular song. My intro to it was via Paddy Reilly.

The Dubs did a good job of it but they had the wrong voice on it. Ronnie Drew should have sung it. I would like to hear Dick Gaughan or even Christy "I ain't Mumblin" Moore. It screams for a worn voice to carry it.

Don

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: skarpi
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 04:12 PM

Hallo all , when I recorded this song with my
band "Our Rose " we did this song in 3/4 .

I Think I can take it from our cd and put into MP3 form I will
try .

all the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:56 AM

Bill, I agree, the Corries do it way too fast.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,Parttimer
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 09:17 AM

I think that words music and chords are in a set of very cheap little books called `Songs and Ballads popular in Ireland' or something like that. From memory there are four books in the set.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 10:40 AM

Ossian publications. Sold all mine!!

I took a look at Huntington. Alongside R of A is:

"In the Nauticon Journal is this little gem called "Mary's Cot" which surely is a traditional version of R of A.

It begins:

The morn was clear, the morn serene.
Not a breath came o'er the sea.
When Mary left her Highland Cot
To wander forth with me......

three more verses......

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Brakn
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:55 PM

Did Charles James Jefferys (1807-1865) write it? In the 1861 census he is down as being a music publisher.

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,kurt
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:40 PM

Jefferys wrote the words
the music was composed by Sidney Nelson

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:58 PM

This should really be heard in the Anchor at Sidmouth with the Middle Bar Singers in full voice, i.e. the begining of the week.

Andy

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Dave Earl
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:15 PM

Not 'arf Andy,

Mike Taylor leading and the rest of us in the chorus.

Dave

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:18 PM

OOH! brings tears to me nethers

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:08 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2GXXO8qDCUc

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:16 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aubwwFs04Bc&feature=channel_page

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: SunrayFC
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:49 AM

You can hear this song sun by Bob Kirkpatrick at the SUNRAY FOLK CLUB, often.

Sunray Folk Club

Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale
From: SunrayFC
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:52 AM

OOOps

Sunray Folk Club

not sure this will work either, although the text is ok!!! HELP!

[fixed- you left the http:// out of the link]--- a clone

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,Desi
Date: 04 May 10 - 12:23 PM

You can also hear this at The Circle Folk club in Coseley West Mid's on Wed nights by myself Desi C Irish singer. And the origin is definitely English coming from Northumbria, written by Charles Jeffrys, music by sidney Nolan around the 1840's. But in my Native Ireland most people think it's Irish or Scots. Must say I find the Cories version very poor, and prefer Sean cannon's or mary Black's excellent country version
Desi C

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 May 10 - 10:12 AM

That should be Charles Jefferys, 1807-1865.

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 06 May 10 - 11:26 AM

"And the origin is definitely English coming from Northumbria, written by Charles Jeffrys, music by sidney Nolan around the 1840's."

It certainly seems to be English but can we say it comes from Northumbria? Did the writers come from there? It perhaps is written about a place in Northumbria or perhaps a place in Scotland. If the writer didn't leave a clue then we don't really know for certain.

If it is about a particular place then many point that it is about Scotland. The writer wrote other 'Scottish type' songs. The mention of 'Highland cot' in the song seems to suggest it is about Scotland. Plus of course the spelling (ie Allandale) in the earlier versions seems to point to it being about Scotland.

On the other hand in the reiving centuries English Borderers were described as Highlanders and the likes of Redesdale etc were described as being Highland. So maybe the writer is throwing back to that?

"In 1549 Camden wrote 'The chief [dales] are Tynedale and Redesdale, a country that William the Conqueror did not subdue, retaining to this day the ancient laws and customs. These Highlanders are famous for thieving; they are all bred up and live by theft."

Plus there is this URL below realting to an account of Jacobite Prisoners taken at Preston. On page 370 it lists Robert Patten, minister of Allandale. This is in fact the English 'Allendale" so at least some people used the Scottish spelling for the English place.

So it appears it isn't very clear where the writer is writing about if in fact he had any real place in mind.

http://books.google.co.uk

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,Tony Armstrong
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 09:51 PM

There is a place named Rebel hill in Allendale, Northumberland, where the minister Robert Patten is said to have preached before he and a number of men from Allendale set off to join the Jacobite rebellion at Wooler in Northumberland.

There is a poem about 'The Allendale Rose' from Allendale, Northumberland, but that was about Lucy Grey.

Guest/Allen is not far off about 'The Rose of Allandale' when he mentioned the Jacobites.

'The Rose of Allandale' was written by Charles Jefferys and composed by Sidney Nelson (not Sidney Nolan).

The earliest reference that I've found was in the Newspaper, the Morning Post in 1832, in a play about Rob Roy McGregor. Rob Roy Macgregor's wife was Mary Helen MacGregor. The is places with the name both Allendale and Allandale in Scotland within 20 miles from where Rob Roy MacGregor lived.

Below is some of the sources about 'The Rose of Allandale'
I hope this is helpful to people towards the origins of the song.

The Morning Post (London, England), Saturday, January 14, 1832; pg. [1]; Issue 19063
New Vocal Music. - The Rose of Allandale sung by Mr Wilson in Rob Roy, at The Theatre Royal, Covent-Garden. Written by Charles Jefferys Composed by S.Nelson.... 2s 6d.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Sheffield Independent, and Yorkshire and Derbyshire Advertiser (Sheffield, England), Saturday, November 02, 1833; pg. [1]; Issue 669
Theatre, Sheffield. (England.)
On Monday November 4th 1833.
The Honeymoon.
Song - "The Rose of Allendale." by Miss Aldridge.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Morning Post (London, England), Monday, September 15, 1834; pg. [1]; Issue 19897
New Songs - ..."The Rose of Allandale sung by Mr Sporle at the watering places with the greatest eclat, and honoured by the unanimous applauses of their delightful hearers; "Farewwell, my gentle Mary," sung by Mr Sporle, 2s; The emancipated Negro," with a fine portrait of the late Mr W. Wilberforce, sung with the greatest applause at the late dinners to commemorate the abolition of slavery, Written by Charles Jefferys, composed by S. Nelson. 2s 6d.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The Harp of Freedom by Geo. W. Clark. p.218
Slaves Wrong's
words by Miss Chandler. Arranged from "Rose of Allandale."

------------------------------------------------------------------

The Book of Temperance Melody: adapted and arranged to popular aids. By Edwin Paxton Hood. 1850. p.30
"I've heard the praise of Rosy Wine." Air-"The Rose of Allendale"
------------------------------------------------------------------

The Poems of John C. Coglan. 1873. p.176
"The Rose of Allendale."
This poem is about a racehorse

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,Tony Armstrong
Date: 17 Jul 10 - 08:14 AM

A little bit more information:

'Rob Roy' was written from the Spring of 1817 by Walter Scott. (wikipedia)

Isaac Pocock (1782–1835) converted some of the Waverley novels into operatic dramas. On 12 March 1818 his 'Rob Roy Macgregor, or Auld Lang Syne,' an operatic drama in three acts, was first played at Covent Garden. (wikipedia)

I have found some sheet music of the ballad, The Rose Of Allandale, Sung By Mr Wilson at the Theatre Royal Convent Garden, Written By Charles Jefferys and Composed By S Nelson
Publisher: Chappell & Co. Ltd. London. ©1820.

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,Andrew
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 11:49 PM

You can purchase the sheet music for the Rose of Allendale from one of the sites listed at the link (via MyLiszt search engine).

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale
From: GUEST,Rose
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:55 AM

Hi, you can find the full lyrics and chords on www.unitedirelandtripod.ie among hundreds of other similar Irish/scots folk songs. The 'rose' refers to a boat by the way and it is Scots though many of my country men believe it's Irish

Desi C

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale
From: Artful Codger
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:59 PM

Rose/Desi: Before spreading more misinformation about this song, can you cite credible sources? In the song, "the rose" clearly refers to Mary, a woman, whatever meaning it may have had in the Rob Roy legend, at best distantly related. So far, the facts presented indicate that "The Rose of Allandale" was just a lyrical love song written along an established pattern, and is no more authentically Scottish than "Brigadoon", while it was likely set in Northumberland. It needs more than mere assertion to refute points others have backed up factually.

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale
From: leeneia2
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:35 PM

Today is my day to add new pieces to my piano repertoire, so I decided to try for Rose of All*ndale.

First of all, let me say that many of the links in this vintage thread no longer work. So here's a nice, fresh link to a lovely MIDI of this song:

http://www.alansim.com/scohtml/scotland.html#S

Go the page and look for 'SWEET Rose of Allandale'.

I have searched on GoogleEarth, and there are towns named Allendale and Allandale in the northern-middle of Great Britain.

Maybe if I look on the Levy site again...

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale
From: leeneia2
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:47 PM

This time I found it at the Levy site. It's under 'Rose of Allandale', as somebody said long ago. I didn't catch the second 'a' on my first try.

It is interesting to hear the differences that have been made over the years as folk folk-processed the tune. It might be fun to play it the modern way then follow with the exact version from the old sheet music.

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale
From: leeneia2
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:59 PM

Hmmm. Something seems to be wrong with the MIDI on that page I just mentioned above. The MIDI doesn't seem to transfer.

So, what do we do when we wish to obtain a valid MIDI of an antique Scottish-Northumbrian tune? We go to Kunst der Fuge, of course.

http://www.kunstderfuge.com/tunes/scottish.htm

Many tunes there, so search for 'Rose.'

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale / Allandale
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 07:33 PM

Elizabeth Block says, "I think the antepenultimate line of the last verse should be “Unblessed by Fortune’s wheel”"

Anybody have this version?

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale / Allandale
From: Reinhard
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 11:02 PM

The Dubliners sing "Fortune’s wheel", see live and recorded versions on YouTube.

Ditto Australian trio Honeyfields on their 2020 album that they even gave the title "Fortune’s Wheel", see their Bandcamp page. They write that they learned the song from the singing of Nic Jones, who of course sings "Fortune's gales".

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale / Allandale
From: GerryM
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 02:49 AM

For what it's worth, All(a)(e)ndale rhymes better with "gale" than it does with "wheel".

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale / Allandale
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 08:40 AM

The Corries turned it into a 4/4 March, and pretty well everyone who sings it in Scotland copies that and does it that way! It was a revelation to me to hear it done the English way in a slow and far more lyrical 3/4, as in the above-mentioned Middle Bar at Sidmouth. I MUCH prefer the latter.

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale / Allandale
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 10:29 AM

Joe said:
'Elizabeth Block says, "I think the antepenultimate line of the last verse should be “Unblessed by Fortune’s wheel”"'

I very much doubt that Jeffreys and Nelson wrote "Wheel"... and the facsimile sheet music linked
here certainly has "gale".

Ms Block is free to change the words as they like, but I don't think it's an improvement, and "should" is a strong word...

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale / Allandale
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 11:35 AM

Here are two sources that are current today, in March 2021.

The Lester Levy site has four old versions of the sheet music. Search for Rose of Allandale. The antepenultimate line is "unblest by Fortune's gale." (Links to specific songs on this site never seem to work, so you have to do a search every time.)

The abcnotation site has two versions of the melody, one in 3/4, one in 4/4.

I didn't look at all four pieces of sheet music to see if the lyrics are the same throughout.

I enjoy playing this melody on my old piano.

Subject: RE: Lyr/Tune Req: The Rose of Allendale / Allandale
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 05:24 PM

I meant to add that if there are any questions about the preantepenultimate lines, the versions at the Levy site should provide the answers.