4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice

Subject: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:34 PM

In a system without criminal law, to give an example, a fellow brings another tribal member to our court for taking his gun. My first question as judge (J) is Did he ask for it? Complainant (C) responds, Yes.
J: Did you ask why he needed it?
C: Yes, he said he saw a deer.
J: So, why did you not give him the gun?
C: Because he is a little putz and I hate him...
So I turn to the defendant (D)
Why did you want his gun?
My wetu was to far away and the deer was near his.
Have you borrowed guns before?
D: Yes
Did you share the game with the person who's gun it was? Did you clean the gun before returning it? So ... you don't like each other, eh? Do you hate each other more than you love your tribe? Well, both of you go for a sweat tonight, just the two of you, and Sparrow who will tend the fire for you, then come and see me tomorrow, if you can still not agree, then perhaps one of you has to go and live with another nation, though I hope that does not happen. Leaving is not something that happens easily and we will have a lot of sweats together and see what we can do. Now, both of you go and ask the Grandmothers what they need for you to do, chop some wood together, weed the gardens.
Adversarial law does not tend to cure the problem, it just holds the warring parties apart. In Canada today, some nonnative courts are adopting parts of Native systems, such as sentencing circles. I have seen native courts deal with some very complex issues such as rape, and though it takes time and patience there is little to no recidivism, So in a very short nut shell there is the start of what non-retributive justice is about.
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:48 PM

God, Larry, what a vision!! I love it!!

Our law-by-adversarial conquest, which goes back to Norman times, is a real canker sore on our society.

The positive side is, of course, that it is a process, repeatable and somewhat predictable. But the reason behind the scads of cheap lawyer jokes is that it has deteriorated from "twelve good men and true" to "two bad-assed lawyers, and rich".

I love the idea of the systm you describe.

A

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:00 PM

Well Amos, it exists and has worked for the court I judge in, for maybe 2,000 or so, before the Pequots came south. CHeers Larry

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: ponytrax
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:29 PM

InOBU, Larry, reports a dialog from a tribal court, I think in Canada:

"Because he is a little putz and I hate him."

This would be the famous Canadian tribe of yiddish speakers? Just wondering.

Actually we just watched Blazing Saddles, featuring Mel Brooks as a yiddische native american, that's what it made me think of.

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:38 PM

Hi ponytrax: The court is in the US, in Ct. Putz even made it's way into Gaelic, as did smuck which in Dingle became Smuckeen the deminutive adding a further note of abuse! Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:46 PM

I have heard of a case (on 5th estate or similar news documentary) in which a young first nations man in BC so violently attacked an older man - that he left a boot print on his back. The first nations people wanted to have an opportunity to use their justice system to deal with it. THey exiled the young man on an island - left him food every day but no one had any other contact with him. After some time, he was begging to go back and eventually he came out a changed person. He is now married with children and a productive member of the community. on the other hand I heard a similar story in which the first nations wanted to deal with one of their own after a similar assault and convinced the judge to let them handle it their way. It turned out to be a farce, they basically let him go and nothing happened. Of course I cant attest to the veracity of either case but if the second is true its a shame.

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: SharonA
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:57 PM

Hmmm... in the example given, it still seems that there is some punishment meted out: going for a sweat (what the heck is that?); weeding a garden next to someone whose guts you hate; possibly leaving your nation. Isn't that still a systematic retribution, as in the US criminal justice system? Seems to me like the same concept with a different sentence (closer to the sentence of hard labor – chopping wood vs. breaking rocks).

In the thread that this grew out of (entitled "for all who wish for war"), the discussion was of justice for terrorists. So I'm wondering how this system would deal with the specific situation of a terrorist brought before the judge. Larry?

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:05 PM

It is an ideal way of seeing justice clearly, but I don't know how we would apply it in a mostly non-tribal society. Without the benefit of the belief system, I sure wouldn't want my neighbourhood to be the ones to decide what to do.

I would feel comfortable being judged by a Native American court such as you work in, Larry, even as a person with just a bit of Mohawk. Or, maybe I am still looking at it from a whitehide angle too much, using the word, "judge."

I'll have to think on this some more. It is very interesting. I hope we can discuss it more.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:20 PM

Pter, I know the case you refer to, it is the second case. In fact, it was exposed by a brother Native judge who told me the whole story at a convention of Indian judges in New Mexico a number of years ago. In fact, it was two brothers, and their uncle perpatrated the hoax. I believe it then went before the proper native court, as most native juridictions don't have a bar against double jeopardy, and my brother judge treated the event with due serriousness.
Sharon, no a sweat is no punnishment. It is a very very intence experience, and one which leaves one exhasted and revived, renewed, like silent worship among Friends, it has to be experienced to be understood. I would LOVE to get mr. Bin Ladin in a sweat lodge with some of the family members of his victems. One can't undertand the honesty which comes out of the experience, hopefully Native catters who have been involved in their traditions can explain it more than I, I who am often wordy, am at a loss to describe the extrodinary experience. But, one just does not DO it, Bin Ladin would have to be ready for a sweat. In preparation he would have to spend a long time clearing away the rubble at the "pile", listening to fire fighters tell him about their comrads who were lost, cooking meals for the children of mothers he killed, at some point he would be ready to sweat, and I believe he'd be different after it, and so would we. It is a better thing to change a heart than to stop it.
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:39 PM

What a wonderful idea, Larry! That would be a great blessing for all.

It is not easy to describe a sweat. As you've said, one comes out different, very changed. I always get exhausted, but it is a good, ultra-relaxed exhausted, very subdued. Things go on inside a sweat which are very personal yet, shared with all inside. Oftentimes there are mysteries revealed or brought up. It is an intense experience, a privilege and should not be entered into lightly. Anyone who shares a sweat will always be connected to those who share it with them.

kat

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:58 PM

That is about exactly how I'd decribe it... Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:32 PM

My understanding of the perspective from which the system you describe arises, Larry, is that "criminal" behavior is seen as being the result of disordered thinking, as opposed to one being "bad" or "evil", and that the goal is to help the person to think straight as opposed to punishing him or her.

The ultimate goal being to eliminate that particular source of destructive behavior through healing rather than through imprisonment or punishment, if possible. Does that sound about right to you?

Subject: RE: 4 Sharon, Native Courts & Justice
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:38 PM

Fox! as my old dear late English tudor used to say. And I would only add to it, that it is the break down of the relationship between the community and the indvidual, so both come to a new understanding through the process or part company in the rarest instance. Cheers Larry