Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase

Subject: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: Justa Picker
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 09:46 AM

Taking a bit of a cue, from another thread about what songs you play in a music store, I thought I'd start a separte one.

(Copied and pasted from the other thread.)

The first thing I do in a music store when I pick up a guitar, is tune it, and then check the intonation of all strings, using harmonics on the 12th fret. If it passes this quick check, I play it. If it doesn't I put it back on the shelf, and grab other guitars, and repeat this process till it does. Then it's a round of several first position chords strummed like E, C, D, G, to see if the guitar remains in tune with itself. Then, a Liz Cotten tune, followed by Deep River Blues, and then some Travis things. If the instrument doesn't capture my interest within 4-5 minutes, I put it back. Usually with these things, I know instinctively within the first couple of minutes, by the feel of the neck and the tone. Only after it's captured my interest, do I start looking at it cosmetically for cracks, overspray, binding chips, neck angle, bridge, height of the saddle, height of strings in the nut, flatness of the top, etc.etc.

(But because I am a recovering G.A.S.-oholic, I don't go to stores anymore just to play guitars. I only set foot in one if I've come on a purchasing mission looking for something specific.)

So what's your routine when you're in a store checking out a guitar? What things do you check, and look for? What are the things you can and can't live with? Turn ons? Turn offs?..etc.etc.

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 10:36 AM

Neck angle first. Intonation second. action third.

Had the daughter of a friend phone me the other day, asking what I felt about a 1960 Martin 00-18 she had played the day before at the 12th Fret Music store. She really loved it and had almost bought it on the spot. I went over to the store and tried it. Good neck angle, intonation and action. Great sound and volume, but something seemed a bit wierd. Guess it's just a sixth sense I've developed over the years. The bridge was raising a tad, but usually that's no big deal....just get 'er glued back down. I asked when the guitar had last been in the repair shop, and apparently the bridge had only been glued down TWO WEEKS previously! Now if it's already lifting.....that's serious. Did a bit of close checking and noticed some decomposition of the wood right around the bridge. That means that they couldn't get a clean surface to glue. Serious deal-breaker. Told her to keep looking. Someone will buy the axe of course in the next couple of weeks...it's well priced...but my guess is that they'll have nothing but problems with that bridge.

Rick

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 10:38 AM

Great idea for a thread topic.

When I'm seriously looking for a guitar I do and don't do certain things.

1. I view the mission as looking for a certain tool for a certain job. For instance, I am currently looking for a mahogany dred. When I go test driving I don't drive any S's, J's, OM's, M's etc. I already know why I want what I want and testing something that's not within those "tool" parameters will only confuse me and waste time well..I came in here for a wrench, but powwweeeeeerrr toooolssssss.......mmmmmmmmmm! Doh!

From there I a/b in much the same manner as you but I try again to eliminate confusion as I go. I try to put myself facing a corner or at least a wall first. I a/b for a while, try to assess if I'm giving a fair chance to a great guitar with old strings. I try to eliminate things that will make a difference but can be compensated----for instance, making sure that I'm a/b'ing with my right hand equidistant from the bridge not the soundhole.

once I'm really serious about a few, I go to a testing room (I'm lucky enough to be close to Elderly's, but Front Porch in Valparaiso IN is equally accomodating to privacy---and has one VERY fine guitar player if I want to be on the recieving end of some sound).

This brings me to another point. It's a little controversial, the subject of "projection" but regardless of where you stand on the issue of whether a "projecting" guitar may not sound as good to the player, any guitar will sound different from the other side. I try to listen to someone else play it.

I don't do much in the way of altered tunings but I always do a bit of drop D to see how that sounds too.

hey.....I'll let someone else talk now.

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: Justa Picker
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 12:56 PM

Another thing I always look for is a shaved bridge and a low saddle. Tell-tale sign that the guitar needs a neck reset and the previous owner didn't want to spring for it and instead used the stop-gap method of shaving the bridge. So then you have to factor in the neck reset costs, and a new replacement bridge and saddle. I purchased one of my guitars with this problem, because it sounded and played so well, and I figured it was worth doing to protect and maintain it both from a playing standing point and from an investment. The neck reset and replacement bridge/saddle gave it an even stronger bolder sound, and enhanced its playability.

Some are a little squeamish about buying a used guitar in this condition, but usually you can haggle with the store (or the seller) on this point and get a price break if you agree to let the luthiers in the store do the work (making sure they're reputable and know what they're doing,) and in the vast majority of instances, having this work done should not detract from the sound or playability in any way, and, protects the investment.

It's rare to find an instrument new or used that is perfectly setup to your specifications right out of the shute, but if it's close to the way you like your action and intonation, a minor tweak (setup) is not a big deal.

My main sticklers are buzzes, intonation and lifting or worn frets that cause your pinky finger to catch on the side edge of the frets when you're doing a slide. If any of these three can't easily be remedied, I pass, and look at something else.

Also, I have a major problem with large or long cracks, whether repaired or not, and no matter how stable the salesguy tells me it is. Pickguard crack isn't a big deal. It's those long ones in the sides or back, and the big ones in the top repaired with splices or down the center seams. Tells me the instrument's been abused (and no I'm not going to put a Lester Flatt or Josh White sized pickguard on it.**BG**

And always have the store give you a light and a mirror and clearly show you the inside to check for structural problems, repairs or modifications to bridge plates, kerfing, bracing, etc. The insides sometimes tells more of the story than the outside.

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 01:07 PM

Wonderful thread, JP!!

I want to second something that John Hardly said. It is important enough that I don't want it glossed over.

Whenever you are checking out a stringed instrument, be sure to take it to a practice room. Remember that when you are in a room full of instruments, there is a lot of sympathetic vibrations from the other instruments. It will make you believe that the instrument you are playing has a richer sound than it may actually have. Take it into a practice room where you can hear its actual voice, without that sympathetic vibration.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: Justa Picker
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 01:34 PM

Thanks Mick and John.
You both make excellent points, and Mick, have you ever noticed how when you play a guitar in a private area or in a sound booth in the store, buy it, and then take it home and play it in your living room, it sounds completely different, not neccessarily better or worse, just different? Is this part of the same conspiracy as to why a the vile dark stuff tastes better in a bar, then when you pour yourself one at home? *G*

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: DougR
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM

I don't know, Picker, tastes pretty good to me at home too!:>)

Great thread!

DougR

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 04:38 PM

What a lot of good points. The last two guitars I've bought I've gotten because I was in the shop for something else. I killed some time by playing some new models and guitar lust struck. I primarily play in DADGAD and other tunings, so I put the guitar in that mode and play some tunes that go all around the neck. If it sounds good, and the strings don't whimp out too easily, I go further. Then, it gets to the notion of what guitar I want to give up to get this one (I'm not a collector). The Santa Cruz OM/PW I just picked up, I got specifically to play in standard and G tunings. I brought Margaret and Kate to the shop with me and had them sing something from the repertoire to see how the guitar sounded with their voices going. Then I got out the credit card, and put the Breedlove on e-bay.

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 09:05 AM

Since I don't get to the high-class stores all that often, most of the music stores I frequent are small-town operations. I start by scanning the room, looking for something that isn't like everything else there--cause they mostly keep stocked by dealing with primarily one company that ships them a lot of low-to-medium priced ho-hummers.

I look for the trades and consignments. I might sight down the neck first, discard if warped or too bowed. Or I might just play something, with a flatpick. I'm looking for a warm sound that doesn't resemble the tonal vibrations of a garbage can lid, and is playable in tune up the neck.

If it passes that (maybe 25% do), further inspection is warranted. Unrepaired cracks, repaired cracks, worn frets , buzzes and rattles, and do the tuners work smoothly and hold adequately?

And finally, onboard electronics? It's a bonus if there's usable ones on a moderate-priced guitar. If it's a really good guitar, it's less of a factor--going to want to customize that anyway.

W-O

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 10:20 PM

Here's a little trick you might try. I did it once and was truly amazed. Wouldn't buy an instrument without doing it now.

Have someone (preferably good who plays similar to your style) play the instrument at the far end of the room (store). Stand about five feet in front of them. Then gradually move as far away as possible and listen for the "decay". What I discovered was that several Collings guitars decayed much faster than several Martins. Discovered that my little 0-18 carried much farther than several bigger axes. The decay among Gibsons was pretty quick, but several Taylors seemed to hold their sound after twenty five or so feet.

Probably an important factor if you play strictly acoustically.

Rick

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 10:43 PM

Rick,

That's fascinating 'cause it gets to what I was talking about as the (somewhat) controversial position some hold on the nature of guitars that project vs. guitars that sound good to the player.

Of particular interest to me was that I was talking with a fellow about this in terms relative to guitar weight and how that effects sound.

this fellow proceeded to 'splain to me that the reason I may not care as much for the Collings sound was because it was made to "project".

furthermore, I was schooled, the heavier built guitars like Collings and Goodall will sound better on the other side-----so don't be fooled by that warm Santa Cruz, Martin, (other lighter weight builder) sound. It only sounds that good to the player---not the audience.

Um. I think I prefer your reasoned approach of testing, to his overarching theory.

interesting theory though------y'know a music box only projects when on a table...

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 10:47 PM

When I test drive a guitar for purchase, which I am currently doing, my criteria is first and foremost the neck and how it plays. I usually try to choose guitars with nearly dead strings on them. I find it is easier to judge how well a guitar sounds and plays that way.

I usually don't even consider the name of the guitar. There are so many things that are reaaly importanat that the name is only secondary when determining a purchase.

As for sound, I am deaf in one ear and what I actually hear as I play isn't what someone else hears. I always have someone play it for me, so I can sit infront of it rather than behind it, and hear as true a sound as is possible with one dead ear.

Don

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: DrBrown
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 11:37 PM

I like older guitars. The wood they're using these days - well, let's just say the forests have been depleted.

The very first thing I do is sight down the neck to check for warping, twisting, cupping, and what have you. If the neck isn't straight, it doesn't matter how good it sounds. After that, assuming a good tune has already been applied, a few quick chords up and down the neck to see how she sounds, and mostly here I'm checking for an even volume balance so that I don't end up with real trebly open chords and real bassy barres at the ninth fret.

Never buy a guitar the first time you play it. Slap it around until they get sick of you and kick you out, then come back in a day or two and see if everything's the same. It's more important if you're like me and tend to use lighter-gauge strings than what the store puts on, and even then it can be a crap shoot. I picked up a Yamaha that was sweet as anti-freeze with a .011 E string, but move to .008 or 9 and it was thinner than Cher, very little on top and way too much bottom.

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 12:12 AM

Ok, maybe after I've been playing for a few years, the above might make sense to me. What about us neophytes (not to mention beginners). What the heck do we look for if we have a strong desire to learn/play, but don't have much of a budget and little knowledge?

Subject: RE: Evaluating a Guitar for Purchase
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 08:25 AM

That's easy. Go to the Seagull rack. Look for one of the basic models that appeals to you, check the neck, sit down with it and see if you can make a G (the Fielding/Lane way *G*), and a barre Bm. Someone can show you these. If you can, plop down your $300 US and enjoy. You won't go wrong, but understand that eventually you will upgrade. Seagulls are notorious carriers/transmitters of G.A.S. (Guitar Acquisition Syndrome).

Off to work.

All the best,

Mick