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It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost
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Subject: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: InOBU Date: 04 Nov 01 - 07:39 AM I was sent this and feel it is very important to share this as a sort of wake up. Cheers, Larry From: "Paul"
GREEN PARTY USA COORDINATOR DETAINED AT AIRPORT PREVENTED BY ARMED MILITARY FROM FLYING TO GREENS MEETING IN CHICAGO
"I was targeted because the Green Party USA opposes the bombing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan." --Nancy Oden
(The Green Party USA statement on the war against Afghanistan is at http://www.greenparty.org/911.html They are the original Green Party in the U.S. since 1986) ==========
PLEASE FORWARD TO ALL MEDIA AND LISTSERVS. THANX (Mitchel Cohen)
The Greens / Green Party USA 226 South Wabash, 6th floor PO Box 1406, Chicago, Illinois 60690 Toll-free Phone: 1-866-GREENS-2 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 2, 2001 MEDIA ALERT: GREEN PARTY USA will hold press conference in CHICAGO SATURDAY, NOV. 3 10 a.m. at the J. Ira and Nicki Family Hostel 24 East Congress Parkway (at Wabash), 2nd floor ------------------------------------------------
GREEN PARTY USA COORDINATOR DETAINED AT AIRPORT PREVENTED BY ARMED MILITARY FROM FLYING TO GREENS MEETING IN CHICAGO
Armed government agents grabbed Nancy Oden, Green Party USA coordinating committee member, Thursday at Bangor International Airport in Bangor Maine, as she attempted to board an American Airlines flight to Chicago. "An official told me that my name had been flagged in the computer," a shaken Oden said. "I was targeted because the Green Party USA opposes the bombing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan."
Oden, a long-time organic farmer and peace activist in northern Maine, was ordered away from the plane. Military personnel with automatic weapons surrounded Oden and instructed all airlines to deny her passage on ANY flight. "I was told that the airport was closed to me until further notice and that my ticket would not be refunded," Oden said.
Oden is scheduled to speak in Chicago Friday night on a panel concerning pesticides as weapons of war. She had helped to coordinate the Green Party USA's antiwar efforts these past few months, and was to report on these to The Greens national committee. "Not only did they stop me at the airport but some mysterious party had called the hotel and cancelled my reservation," Oden said.
The Greens National Committee -- the governing body of the Green Party USA -- is meeting in Chicago Nov. 2-4 to hammer out the details of national campaigns against bio-chemical warfare, the spraying of toxic pesticides, genetic engineering, and the Party's involvement in the burgeoning peace movement.
"I am shocked that US military prevented one of our prominent Green Party members from attending the meeting in Chicago," said Elizabeth Fattah, a GPUSA representative from Pennsylvania who drove to Chicago. "I am outraged at the way the Bill of Rights is being trampled upon." Chicago Green activist Lionel Trepanier concluded, "The attack on the right of association of an opposition political party is chilling. The harassment of peace activists is reprehensible." For further information, please call 1-866-GREENS-2 (toll-free)
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 01 - 07:57 AM
"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
Kipling We are amused by the continuous use of the adjective "innocent" when applied to "civilians." It is not clear to me that civilians are necessarily innocent. The term innocent signifies "not guilty," and by extension it might be proposed that putting on a uniform automatically makes the wearer guilty of something or other, such as fighting for his country. It seems that the term "non-combatant" is preferable to "innocent civilian." Reminds me of the 80 year grandmother who made punji stakes in Vietnam. Once and for all get this into your heads... The US Airforce does not intentionally target civilians, and yes some will get killed maimed and injured in war; thats why we dont like doing war unlike our present enemies who consider it their holy duty to kill us. Anyone preaching this is guilty of slander. Nancy got messed around cause she is an asshole; not stoned to death for not wearing a burqua... Mr InObu should be familiar with this legal concept. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: kendall Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:21 AM If just being an asshole was sufficient cause for harrassment, none of us would be allowed to fly. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: InOBU Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:35 AM Let me understand our guest's point of view... somehow defending the right of travel for an American who has committed no crimes is challenging the term inocent civlians? Forgive me if I ask you to illustrate your point further. And answer a question for me, you seem to be OK with suspention of the constitution during times of war, as we have spent so much of our history at war, when do we get to be Americans, dear Guest? Your fellow citizen (I presume as you are anonomus) Larry |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Donuel Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:57 AM It happens here all the time. Enemies of the state (to the FBI with tacit Presidential approval) have been people like Martin Luther King. Profiling arabs with or without visa's would seemingly be the people the government needs to detain. At this early date the potential for an unlimited number of people being scrutinized for "unamerican activities" is great. Guest may be investigated for treason with the accusation from a mudcatter more easily today than in the last 20 years. Is it fair or just? Shotgun diplomacy and security creates a wide scatter. The trolling behavior of Guest still makes a point that people who are more defensive in the midst of security activities will be detained and miss their flight simply as a power play by those in charge of security. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Metchosin Date: 04 Nov 01 - 09:17 AM Perhaps the present US government should have heeded this statement from one of their Republican predecessors, Dwight D. Eisenhower when he warned 40 years ago:
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted, only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together." I personally considered the man a bit of a boffo because he thought that using nuclear bombs to blast the St. Lawrence Seaway back in the fifties might be a good idea, but the old General was right about some things. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Metchosin Date: 04 Nov 01 - 09:26 AM I realize it doesn't matter a hill of beans in the US, but under "Section E" of the proposed Canadian Anti-Terrorist legislation, people like Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King, would be classed as terrorists and there is no "sunset clause". The US might consider itself lucky by comparison. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 01 - 09:32 AM Did anyone check the validity of the statement? or is it possible that Nancy made these as a publicity stunt No I dont advocate the suspension of the Constitution Larry but I dont agree with making public accusations about the USA bombing innocent civilians either. (BTW I am not a US citizen) I was neither trolling or defending just using the same tactics to make my point, as the rest of you do on this forum. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Gareth Date: 04 Nov 01 - 12:12 PM Mmmm! Sounds familiar - Here in the UK a period of House arrest was applied, without any legal sanction, against actavists during the Miners Strike of the Mid 1980's. At choke points on the Motorways, the Thames and Severn Crossings, the police would stop, detain, and turn back any suspected actavists. The problem is if you give authority a power the odds are that it will be misused. (BTW I concur that the USAF is not deliberatly targeting civilians but no matter how "smart" the weapon some target drift will occour through human error, bad intelligence, or what you will. Or just the habit some states have of placing military targets in close proximity to the Red Cross/Crescent.) Question - InObu the report you posted seems a little subjective - has the "otherside" been reported ? Gareth
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: kendall Date: 04 Nov 01 - 04:35 PM George Washington was a terrorist. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 01 - 05:26 PM Kendall... G W was a uniformed soldier fighting a terrible half civil war. Please do not trivialise this incident... Concern for human rights also means that we be more carefull. Obtain the facts before judgement. This forum tends to react rather than reason... Do we have all the facts? or just one version where the person reporting already has shown bias towards and against the US policy?. Makes the movie "The Patriot" look like actual history than the mere entertainment it really was. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: DougR Date: 04 Nov 01 - 05:34 PM Hasn't it occurred to any of you that if that story was correct, ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox News CNN, MSNBC would have been all over it like flies on you know what. Have you heard anything about it other than the news release the Green Party sent you, Larry? Anybody? I haven't. And Kendall, by no stretch of the imagination was GW a terorist. Geeze! Guest is right. He was a soldier. And Guest, it's so much easier to react rather than check facts first. DougR |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,CarolC (not getting any cookies) Date: 04 Nov 01 - 05:45 PM A lack of reportage from ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC about this story could be an indication that it isn't true. On the other hand it could indicate that the major news networks aren't the tools of the left wing that you think they are, DougR. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 01 - 06:26 PM That's right CarolC. They weren't reporting about the phone calls from Contra HQ in San Salvador to Vice President Bush's office prior to the Iran/Contra scandal, despite being presented with the phone records by the Pax Christi Institute's lawyers, who eventually filed suit against the US government over the US' illegal activities in Central America at the time. There is a reason why the US refuses to join with the international community's call for international courts with international jurisdiction for this very sort of military adventurism. Because it would hold the US military industrial establishment accountable for the suffering and damage they cause to--yes, other guest, innocent civilians. Opposing government policy is a civic duty as well as a constitutionally protected right in a functioning, healthy democracy, when one believes the policy to be dangerously wrong. Not only is there a strong peace movement coalescing right now to oppose US and UK actions in Afghanistan, there are also militarists who oppose these actions as dangerously wrong. Take away the rights of the citizenry to disagree with the government and air these concerns, and we are exactly what we claim to be fighting.
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: kendall Date: 04 Nov 01 - 06:55 PM I've said it before, and I'll say it again, "Everything is reletive, to a germ, good health is a type of disease." To the King of England, George Washington was a traitor, and a terrorist. It makes a difference whose ox is gored. My point is this, who decides who is a terrorist, and, who is a "Freedom fighter"? |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Mark Cohen Date: 04 Nov 01 - 07:34 PM Obviously, Kendall, the ones with the money. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: kendall Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:19 PM We tend to forget that at that time, they were all British subjects. Paul Revere did not yell :The British are coming" he said "The redcoats are coming." And, at the end of his ride he said..."Whoa" |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: DougR Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:58 PM So? Is your position, then, friend Kendall, that the guys that flew airplanes into the WTC, the Pentagon and into the Pennsylvania turf are freedom fighters? Carol C; You're back! I've missed you! However, that really is not my point. That would be a front page story on any newspaper in the country if it were accurate. DougR |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,CarolC (cookieless wonder) Date: 04 Nov 01 - 09:02 PM Back in spirit if not in cookies. DougR, I think you missed this bit in the post from GUEST, 04-Nov-01 - 06:26 PM... That's right CarolC. They weren't reporting about the phone calls from Contra HQ in San Salvador to Vice President Bush's office prior to the Iran/Contra scandal, despite being presented with the phone records by the Pax Christi Institute's lawyers, who eventually filed suit against the US government over the US' illegal activities in Central America at the time.
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,SINSULL, no cookie Date: 04 Nov 01 - 09:24 PM I have searched my major news sites and found nothing. Not sure what to make of it. Given the nervous state of our airports, I suspect that the same individual responsible for cancelling her room reservation may have called a "tip" into the police, FBI, whomever. Or some such scenario. Did she "appear" at her conference via the internet? Was any other participant given the same treatment? HMMM. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,katlaughing Date: 04 Nov 01 - 11:11 PM I haven't been able to find any other sources, yet, either, but there are plenty of other things, of similar issues and from independent sources, to read about at Free Expression dot org including the fact that a 15 year old has been banned from wearing an anti-war tshirt to school, as it might disrupt the educational process, in the opinion of the judge who ordered her not to do so. kat |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: DougR Date: 04 Nov 01 - 11:32 PM Yes, Carol, I saw that, but I don't see the revelance of it. Even if it's true. Guest says it is but what does that mean? Here's one: I just heard the following from a good friend of mine in Maine who has a direct line to Usama Ben Laden. Ben Laden told him that he wishes the U. S. would quit picking on him. He also invited anyone who doesn't like living in the U. S. to join him in Afghanstan! He can't promise a private cave, but he said he'd try. Pass that around to everyone, okay? :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,CarolC (cookieless wonder) Date: 04 Nov 01 - 11:39 PM If what the GUEST posted isn't true, I suppose it hasn't any relevance.
If it is true, it casts legitimate doubt on this statement by you... Hasn't it occurred to any of you that if that story was correct, ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox News CNN, MSNBC would have been all over it like flies on you know what. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Charlie Baum Date: 04 Nov 01 - 11:45 PM The Green Party website. Article from the Green Party website, explaining the incident. Incident, as reported in the Bangor Daily News, the local newspaper where the events occurred. Regarding being "unknown to the FBI," Nancy Oden is not merely an anonymous Green Party member, but one of the leaders of the party in Maine. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: DougR Date: 04 Nov 01 - 11:49 PM That's true, Carol. I have a feeling that Guest's story would be hard to corraborate. But do you honestly believe that if the story Larry posted is true, that the major news networks would not have picked up on it? Not because it is what I consider to be a "liberal" press, but because it would be a great news story. DougR |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,Bardford Date: 04 Nov 01 - 11:54 PM Here's an article in the Bangor Daily News. Click here Bardford |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,Bardford Date: 04 Nov 01 - 11:57 PM Dang. Cross posted with Charlie Baum. I type about as fast as I chord. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,katlaughing Date: 05 Nov 01 - 12:15 AM Charlie and Bardford, thanks. I had checked the Bangor News and couldn't find anything. I appreciate the links. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: DougR Date: 05 Nov 01 - 12:16 AM I would urge everyone who is getting their dander up over this news release from the Green Party to read the story in the Bangor Daily News before they get the hives. Charlie Baum provided the blue clicky. How anyone could attribute her treatment to the fact that she is a Honcho in the Green Party is beyond me. She was detained because she would not cooperate with airport security! Where in the hell has she been? Does she read newspapers? Watch TV? Of course airport security has tightened (even in Maine evidently)! What some folks won't distort to get publicity for their cause. Thanks for posting those blue clickies, Charlie. DougR |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: SeanM Date: 05 Nov 01 - 12:43 AM Is there anyone with a second independent verification on this issue? I am disturbed by the story - but I'm also loathe to take it at face value unless I can scare up two sources. On an issue like this, it shouldn't be too difficult. M |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: sc Date: 05 Nov 01 - 01:14 AM Looks to me like there is NO QUESTION she was forced to undergo extra security screening soley on the basis of her political stance. Had she had a place of equal substance in the republican party there would have been a non event. Somehow it seems that nonviolence in our violence based society tends to tag and brand one 'subversive!' Peace! -sc |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Metchosin Date: 05 Nov 01 - 03:27 AM Perhaps the CIA is getting their computer lists on who to watch from CSIS (Canadian Security Intelligence Service). It would appear that Green Party leaders in Canada receive special scrutiny. as this letter indicates |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: kendall Date: 05 Nov 01 - 02:38 PM Doug, as I keep saying, EVERYTHING is relative! Those bastards who destroyed 5000 lives and the twin towers to us are the worst kind of sadistis criminals. But, it is obvious that THEY see themselves in a totally different light. When I flew to England last month, I was walking in a line to the plane in Boston, and I was pulled out of line for questioning. It was simply a random act. Probably they have decided on letting so many people through, and, checking the next one at random. I was not insulted, in fact, I was damn glad they were doing their job. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 05 Nov 01 - 03:34 PM It sounds to me like she could have been randomly chosen, as apparently many are now, and just made more of the issue than there should have been. It is unfortunate, it is an inconvenience, but like several of you, I am skeptical. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: DougR Date: 05 Nov 01 - 04:44 PM Security at airports has tightened but people are still boarding flights with weapons. It the story in the Bangor, Maine newspaper is accurate, the lady was evidently randomly selected and objected to having the device that detects metalic objects passing over her body. If she resisted, as the story indicates, she obviously was detained! She should have been! I doubt very seriously if the people doing such checks, and particularly at airports as small as Bangor's has any idea of anybody's political persuasion that is boarding a plane. Use your heads, folks, and try not to see a Republican boogie man hiding behind ever suitcase at the airport. To me, it looks like the Green Party saw an excellent opportunity to publicize a non-event, and evidently the mainstream media saw through it. I, like you Kendall, would have absoulutely no objection to being singled out for a more thorough search, and I'm glad they are doing it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: CarolC Date: 05 Nov 01 - 05:34 PM I also wouldn't have any problem with being singled out randomly for closer scrutiny at an airport. However if, like the Green Party leader in Canada, Ms Oden is on any kind of special list with the CIA or other intelegence gathering organization because of her involvement with the Green Party, then I think we have a problem. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: InOBU Date: 05 Nov 01 - 06:12 PM Thanks Bardford and Charlie: FINALLY I was able to get back to Mudcat, a kind of Mudcat jones the past few days! It is great to have a resourse with so many who know where to find more info. As many will remember during the last election, I have certain issues with the Greens, however, I also lived through the McCarthy period, so I and hope everyone remains vigilant. We will see if in fact this was because she was troublesome at the airport or another reason, I hope it was the first and she is more understanding in the future. AND Guest... you still miss my origional point, I was only passing on her letter, I at no time said we were targeting inocents, and infact in an earlier post said that though I am not in favor of the bombing (or as a Quaker war per se) I believe civilians are only hit by accedent... Good to see everyone back! Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: SharonA Date: 05 Nov 01 - 06:29 PM I, too, am skeptical about this incident and would like to hear or read further information from unbiased news sources. Of course, finding an unbiased news source, these days, is difficult! |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: InOBU Date: 05 Nov 01 - 07:41 PM I should say, I find the Green Party to be more and more irresponcible, and if in fact she is spreading fear unduely, it is not at all in her party's interest. Larry |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: artbrooks Date: 05 Nov 01 - 09:20 PM As noted (partially) above, the article also says "While an FBI spokeswoman would neither confirm nor deny the presence of any name on the terrorist watch list — another trigger for added security response — one law enforcement source said it was "extremely unlikely" Oden was on the list of potential terrorists because her name is unknown to the FBI." Perhaps the FBI just doesn't care about the Greens or has important things to worry about right now. Sorry, green Party. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Big Mick Date: 05 Nov 01 - 11:24 PM I would say that I am pretty sensitive to the loss of constitutional rights, and that right now I am very wary of some of the things that I see. I fully support getting these bastards but history tells me that the Bill of Rights is usually the first victim. So I watch, very carefully. Having said that, I believe Ms. Oden is way the hell out of bounds. No one denied her the right to travel on the basis of her beliefs. She was singled out for extra screening. Whatever the hell the reason for her being singled out, all she had to do was go through the screening and she would have been on her way. Now, if we were talking a strip search or unreasonable search, that would be a different matter. But even her version doesn't pass muster on that score. Larry never said anything about "innocent civilians". He simply passed on the views of The Greens. He did us a service by bringing this to our attention, as he always does. GUEST is right about one thing. There is a tendency to react instead of carefully reading and then responding. Mick |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Metchosin Date: 06 Nov 01 - 12:53 AM Initially I was being a bit facetious when I suggested that perhaps the FBI and CIA get their lists from CSIS, however, the following article from the Ottawa Citizen leads me to believe that perhaps I wasn't far from the mark.
I don't know what to make of the Green Party leader's story in the US, but the treatment of Dr. Joan Russow, National leader of the Green Party of Canada, might make some US members of the Party a might testy and I'm sure the two National parties trade stories.
Secret files chill foes of government
"The credentials on Joan Russow's resume are rather impressive.
An accomplished academic and environmentalist, she served as national leader of the Green Party of Canada.
The Victoria woman had also earned a reputation as a gadfly whoroutinely shamed the government over its unfulfilled commitments.
But Ms. Russow, 62, was dumbfounded when authorities tagged her with a most unflattering designation: threat to national security.
Her name and photo turned up on a threat assessment list prepared by police and intelligence officials for the 1997 gathering of APEC leaders at the University of British Columbia.
"All these questions start to come up, why would I be placed on the list?" she asks.
Mr. Russow is hardly alone. Her name was among more than 1,000 --including those of many peaceful activists -- entered in security files for the Asia-Pacific summit.
The practice raises serious concerns about the extent to which authorities are monitoring opponents of government policies, as well as the tactics that might be employed at future summits, including the meeting of G-8 leaders next year in Alberta. Further information regarding sharing between CISIS and the US authorities can be found in this article entitled "Criminalizing Dissent"from which the above was quoted. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST Date: 06 Nov 01 - 07:08 AM This story seems to have originated as both an email and a press release. On Saturday, the Independent Media website first had the press release, purportedly posted by the Green Party USA, I think. Then there was a correction story, saying the woman was not on any Green Party committee, but was simply a member of a green organization. For those of you not familiar with the party politics of the Green Party, this Nancy Oden represents a splinter/faction Green Party member. The Green Party had a group against Nader's candidacy split off apparently. Anyway, as of yesterday, the only article on the main Indy Media website was one saying the whole thing was a publicity stunt. Which it may have been. But my guess is, this person was likely a bit paranoid about the security to begin with, got a bit testy with an overly zealous National Guardsman, and it all went to hell from there. Certainly not a national civil liberties scandal, although I'd suggest it may have qualified as a local one. It does sound to me as if the security people likely over-stepped the bounds of even "random" checks in this case. Plenty of people are getting testy going through these security checks, here and now. And plenty of gung-ho John Wayne Guardia boys are coming down too heavy. What with American impatience with such things, I say its maybe Thanksgiving, maybe Christmas holiday crunch time when the shit hits the fan over excess security delays that aren't doing jack shit to improve flying safety for passengers, hmmmm? |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: sophocleese Date: 06 Nov 01 - 12:29 PM You might find this link interesting if you think it can't happen here. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: mousethief Date: 06 Nov 01 - 01:27 PM Do you honestly think the minimum-wage grunts who run the screening machines at this airport in Maine have memorized a set of photographs of subversive types? If so I've got some swampland in Area 51 I'd like to sell you. Alex |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Charlie Baum Date: 06 Nov 01 - 02:17 PM If you click here, and scroll down, you'll get a further account of the Nancy Oden/Bangor airport story.
Here is a news story of someone prohibited from flying because he was reading an Edward Abbey novel. And here is the tale of a Sacramento journalist is taken into custody by police and forced to destroy photos by an over-zealous National Guardsman. Further challenges to civil liberties. --Charlie Baum |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Whistle Stop Date: 06 Nov 01 - 03:11 PM Or at least further assertions of challenges to civil liberties, Charlie. This sounds like much ado about nothing to me. There will occasionally be times when a security guard oversteps the bounds, just as there will be (and are) times when the security people are not as zealous as they should be. Most of us recognize that, unless we've got a damn good reason to see a larger rights-depriving conspiracy at play, we should smile, relax, and take it in stride. If there's a larger issue of government oppression at play here, I don't see it. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: InOBU Date: 06 Nov 01 - 04:30 PM Hi Charlie: Thanks for the links to the other storries. The one about the journalist's photo wont open for me, but the other shows the danger that Ms. Oden's actions can cause, if in deed she was beligerant. We don't have a right to be beligerant when security is doing its job, but we DO have a right to journalistic freedom and the right ot read what we choose. There is great danger to our civil liberties today, and we need to be watchful and most of all responcible. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Greg F. Date: 06 Nov 01 - 06:19 PM Be a good idea to keep Pastor Niemoeller's cautionary tale in mind while everyone is caught up in this 'patriotic' grondswell. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: DougR Date: 07 Nov 01 - 12:12 AM Larry: I think you are taking a very responsibile position on this issue. It was right to post the message, but it's also right to question the validity of the complaint. You are also right that we should have journalistic freedom and the right to read what we choose. I don't agree that we have a GREAT danger to our civil liberties, but I do believe that we have to be vigilant. DougR |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: SeanM Date: 07 Nov 01 - 03:54 AM Now that I've had a chance to see multiple versions of the story, I'm getting close to agreeing with Doug. In my mind, this IS something to be concerned about, and something to watch to make sure that it's not an ongoing flagrant abuse of civil rights. However, in THIS particular case, it does appear that she made the problem for herself. Admittedly - the reaction looked to be overly harsh. To ban someone from the use of ANY airline after the security issue has been dealt with seems to be a peevish overreaction by someone in security. But I don't see any supporting material for this having been more than a series of bad decisions and reactions from both sides. The story of the young man barred from flying due to his reading material disturbs me far more. I've yet to find ANY evidence that he did anything more 'dangerous' than attempt to board a plane with a book about ecoterrorists. While it rankles my sensibilities, I can see where they might want to keep tabs on the gentleman, and that he would have his luggage checked. But to summarily ban him from a flight - AFTER he cooperated with the security checks, and AFTER they cleared him from any suspicion... that's wrong. That's also a highly dangerous act for the airport security authority to take from a financial standpoint. This country's litigation happy enough to begin with. Why give someone a legitimate and quite justified reason to go for the throat? M |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: InOBU Date: 07 Nov 01 - 03:58 AM Dear DougR: War is always a threat to civil liberties. If it were not so, we Quakers would not have the joy of our traditional meetings with Amish, Mennonites and Othodox Jews as well as others of concience in prissons at the start of wars for two hundred years in the States. Those days are for the most part past, but as truth is the first casualty of war, we must remain vigilent or those days can come back. So the treat to civil liberties is always a possibility in any nation, during times of war it becomes a clear and present danger and one which we all should be ready to defend the rights of those we don't always agree with. Cheers pals, Larry |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST Date: 07 Nov 01 - 07:32 AM I think people seem to be losing the line of reasoning here. How is it, do you suppose, that this person was able to make the complaint that she was prevented from travelling because of her political views? Once she was singled out for a random check, she was questioned. Asked where she was going, for what purpose. If she told the truth, and THEN the National Guardsman became overzealous, as it appears likely to have been the case, then her "over-reaction" begins to make some sense. I find this story to be very troubling. Just as troubling as any of the others. It is simply too easy to claim "she asked for it" just because she gave the security people a hard time when she believed they had overstepped their bounds. I likely would have done the same as she did under the circumstances, which must have been quite frightening for her. I'm sure she was already a bit paranoid over her destination and having to get through security as it was. Then to be told she wasn't going to be allowed to travel at all? Come on people--how would *you* have reacted under the same circumstances? Smile happily at Mr. Guardia and go home, knowing the world was safe from the likes of yourself? Everyone seems to be certain, despite no evidence in any of the articles I've read, that this was a random search. So what does it mean if it *wasn't* a random search, and the woman was targeted? |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,just a nobody Date: 07 Nov 01 - 09:52 AM Lets see, a journalist detained for taking pictures of security checkpoints in an airport. Hmmmm... sounds like lack of common sense on his part. From the sounds of his story, he believes that because he is a journalist he has certain rights, above the common citizen. Because he is a journalist, (mind you, he did not mention that he showed any sort of credentials to that fact) he should be allowed to take pictures of security checkpoints. Two men were arrested in Tampa for taking film footage in the Ports. Seriously, without prior permissions, why would anyone be taking pictures of Port Security? And with everything that just happened, why don't people use a little common sense about things they do? I certainly would not raise issue with security personell. The more you fight them and protest that your freedoms had been violated, the more likely you are to be detained. Understand that we are at war, and that some things have changed. Maybe somewhere along the lines, Americans have forgotten what freedoms really meant. Freedom means that you have a great amount of responsibility. You are free to do and say what you wish, but you must also take responsibilty for those actions. You want to be anti-government? Cool... feel free... but know that you will be watched. You may not agree with that, but it is the trade off of being put on a watch list, or getting executed with no trial, as many other countries do. I suppose to many the troubles of having to go through extra security is just as bad as being shot in the head. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,Frank Date: 07 Nov 01 - 11:46 AM Doug and Guest, I believe that bin Laden and Omar could be classified as soldiers as well. The Taliban certainly are soldiers. Are soldiers exempt from being terrorists because they wear a uniform? (Yes, the Taliban wears a uniform). Kendall might be correct about referring to George Washington as a "terrorist" to the British in once sense. This is why the term "terrorist" is so ambiguous. Palenstine refuses to acknowledge Hamas as terrorists. Syria refuses to acknowlege Hezbollah as terrorists. I prefer to use the words "violent religious extremists". I think semantics is the way out of the paper bag of propaganda. Frank |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: DougR Date: 07 Nov 01 - 02:02 PM Then, Frank, I suppose, since you prefer the phrase, "violent religious extremists" you must accept what Osama bin Laden says when he says he is leading an Islamic campaign against us infidels (paraphrasing). Is that so? The majority of Muslems do not agree with him. And I don't recall anyone refuting that Taliban troops are anything other than soldiers! Of course they are. They comprise the Taliban army. GW was commanding general of the Continental army. He was a soldier. Osama bin Laden is not a member of ANY army. He and his followers are terrorists! That's my belief, anyway. DougR |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: CarolC Date: 07 Nov 01 - 06:26 PM You want to be anti-government? Cool... feel free... but know that you will be watched.
--GUEST,just a nobody
I find this statement pretty troubling. There is a big difference between being 'anti-government' and being in opposition to the party of the present administration.
That's one of the things that is supposed to make this country great, isn't it? The right to oppose the current administration, and to seek to win the office through free and fair elections? No? If the current administration uses the power of the office, and inteligence agencies such as the FBI to moniter the activities of opposition parties, don't we come frighteningly close to being the very sort of non-democratic society that we keep saying we're better than?
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Art Thieme Date: 07 Nov 01 - 09:18 PM I, too, got the original e-mail from Paul. It does amaze me how urban legends seem to take on more credibility when presented here in cyberspace as gospel. I'm glad I didn't forward it to "everyone I know". It took me a few years, but I'm learning about this web of ours. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: InOBU Date: 07 Nov 01 - 10:17 PM Hi Art: What I find more incidious than urban legend about this, is that the individual involved did not give us all the facts and I think the more appropriate description is hoax. As I wrote to the person who sent it to me, we progressives are the canary at the bottom of the mine, and when you cry wolf, no one pays us attention when we smell the gass. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Charlie Baum Date: 16 Nov 01 - 02:40 PM The further tale of the denial of the right to use an American airport by an American citizen: click here. --Charlie Baum |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: Celtic Soul Date: 16 Nov 01 - 04:47 PM GUEST penned: "We are amused by the continuous use of the adjective "innocent" when applied to "civilians." It is not clear to me that civilians are necessarily innocent. The term innocent signifies "not guilty," and by extension it might be proposed that putting on a uniform automatically makes the wearer guilty of something or other, such as fighting for his country. It seems that the term "non-combatant" is preferable to "innocent civilian." In the US, you are supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty", so I would have to disagree. And, as stated previously...being an asshole is not a crime. If it were, I and a lot of other people would be in for life sentences. ;D |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie Date: 16 Nov 01 - 05:14 PM InOBU et al-- Read your post; read N.O.'s first hand account. Here's my take, free for nothing. N.O. was treated stupidly by "armed military," yes. Who was the "armed military?" One stupid enlisted person whom I doubt very much was acting on secret orders from the Joint Chiefs. To me it just exemplifies Chicken Charlie's First Law of Life: a LITTLE power is dangerous. Ever been to court? I have. The judge was polite, the DA almost apologetic. The bailiff was an asshole. Always works that way. It was never clear whether N.O. was initially flagged because she was a Green or because of a random selection. Whyever she crossed paths with the alleged moron, she indeed suffered some Kafkaesque treatment. It's just life, though; it doesn't prove conspiracy. If I didn't want to always get picked for "random" searches, I would just shave my beard. Price of rebellion. Get over it. Only on Mudcat would this question be somehow melted down and recast with the one on bombing civilians so as to result in a badly stated problem guaranteeing badly stated answers, which also now have to involve the Great Anonymous Guest Malediction, because otherwise we might stay on one topic until that was cleanly resolved. Perish that thought. My sig other just reminded me it's Friday. Thank God or Allahu Akbar, whichever your choice in the matter. CC |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST,Leprechaun Date: 16 Nov 01 - 06:51 PM I've known some people who worked in airports and some of them develop an uncanny sense of smell. It could be, and in my opinion it is even likely, the people in the airport were alerted to that green lady because she smelled like a terrorist. I bet the same thing would happen to Charlie Baum. Leprechaun |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: SeanM Date: 16 Nov 01 - 07:08 PM Doug commented earlier that "you must accept what Osama bin Laden says when he says he is leading an Islamic campaign against us infidels (paraphrasing). Is that so? The majority of Muslems do not agree with him" I say Bin Laden is leading an Islamic campaign. Just because the 'battle' is being waged with one side being of unified religious belief doesn't mean EVERYONE with that belief has to fall lockstep behind them. All that is required is that the 'side' that claims the religious faith at least nominally professes it. And yes, George Washington WAS a terrorist of sorts - to the British. He was using unorthodox techniques that relied primarily on shock and fear to demoralize a superior number of troops. More importantly, he was using violent means to affect social and political reform. M |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST Date: 17 Nov 01 - 08:58 AM Dear Sean M I think we are loosing site of the definition of terrorist. Every soldier is not a terrorist, where by your definition most soldiers could be seen as terrorits. Rather a terrorist, according to standards set in courts, is one who targets civilian populations. The executive branch of the US government, and the Irish and British governments have been seeking to change the definition to deal with the contradictions in our history and present. But, I fear that is a rather slippery slope. The changing of that definition led to juryless courts in Ireland, and now in the US. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: DougR Date: 17 Nov 01 - 05:37 PM Hey Larry, you lost your cookie again! Why don't you nail that sucker down? :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST Date: 17 Nov 01 - 06:20 PM Larry who lost his cookie... it is because I am on a secret list, put together by the Green Party of progressives who oppose their world domination program. Cheers Larry the cookieless. I wrote to the Cat... didn't get it back yet. Cheers again |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: CarolC Date: 17 Nov 01 - 07:51 PM Cookieless Larry, you can reset your cookie by going to the top of this page, and in the 'quick links' dropdown menue, click on 'reset cookie', then 'go' and follow the instructions. |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: GUEST Date: 17 Nov 01 - 08:20 PM Hi Carol... Forgot my passord, so I sent the required email to Max, I suppose, have not heard back yet, Larry the cookieless |
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Subject: RE: It Can't Happen Here? (U.S. Freedom lost From: CarolC Date: 17 Nov 01 - 08:39 PM Bummer. Good luck with it. |
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