BS: Free samples - what's fair ?

Subject: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 11:32 AM

We just had a situation at the small arts center where I work that has us a bit perplexed.

We booked a five-piece jazz group, not well-known but emerging, on their first tour of the hinterlands from their base on the West coast. They blew into town on a Monday, for a Tuesday night concert.

They used most of the afternoon on Monday to rehearse on our stage, then asked one of the tech crew where they might get a gig that night. He pointed them to a popular bar & eatery only about six blocks from our venue. They went down and did a gig on Monday night there - apparently for free, or drinks and a meal ??

On Tuesday night the turnout for their concert was underwhelming, about 40 people for a 250 seat venue, tickets at $10. One of our workers said he'd seen them the night before for "free" and they were "so-so".

I'm wondering if this was fair to our center for them to do a free gig so near to us, BEFORE our contracted concert. We needed 100 people to make money. They were guaranteed a flat fee, with a split over a certain amount. I feel that the local bar (not that they encouraged this) got a free performance on our backs, and that the band was irresponsible (we paid for their hotel rooms).

On the other hand, we don't own them, and their talent is theirs to use as they see fit. They also probably thought they were "drumming" up more attendance for their concert by putting out a free sample - but it obviously backfired !

I realize this isn't folk, but the principal is the same. What say you Mudcatters who have performed - was this fair ?

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From:
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 11:43 AM

Does seem a bit off, but how big/busy is this bar? Do you really believe that 60 or so folk heard them there and then didn't come to your concert. It would surprise me if that many of your intended audience were in one pub in town. I suspect they were going to a loss maker for your art centre anyway. Also worth considering is whether they believed they'd cleared it with the art centre first by asking for a suggested venue to do a gig.

Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 12:19 PM

To solicit a gig-paid or unpaid- BEFORE the performance, was plain wrong. The band should have asked for gigs AFTER the contractual performance.

Don't deal with them again.

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 12:29 PM

Jock - you're right, I'm sure 60 people didn't see them in the bar, but it's the "they're just so-so" word of mouth the people who did see them might have put out.

Also, I'm wondering if our contracts should carry a clause about not performing "elsewhere," and what those perameters should be - not closer than a certain number of miles within so many hours or days ??

We have had this happen the other way, too. A fairly popular (and good) blues player on the Northwest circuit would play our venue, then go down for a late night set at this same bar.

I noticed one day that they had flyers up saying "Come hear (the blues player) after he appears at (our venue)" - I thought this was also stealing our thunder a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: Cappuccino
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 01:48 PM

I remember this happening at a folk festival in Scotland once - the band went out busking in the main street the day before the show they'd been booked to do. They played all their numbers over the course of an hour or two in the street, made a lot of ready cash, and nobody needed to pay to see them the next night.

The big names have proximity clauses levied on them, not to play within say 50 miles of the venue within a month, or something like that. It may seem a bit high-handed to insert a proximity clause in a booking agreement at local-gig level, but if you're paying a fair whack for a band, I think it's justified. - Ian B

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 01:50 PM

Our local folk club has a clause in the contract when we set up concerts for other performers that any other performances within 60 days and 25 miles of the center of our city are not permitted without the expressed approval of our organization.

We generally offer our approval to perform at venues that we know from experience don't impact much on our audience (a local stage whose audience is mainly made up of tour-bus patrons, for example) or for events which seem like good "teasers"--likely to generate interest without dispelling it and thereby boost attendance at our sponsored event (a short set as a part of a large crowd, or a radio gig., for example).

We also have an awareness of folk clubs which abut or overlap our area, and try to coordinate permission with them, too.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 02:59 PM

Just to let you know how it works, Jock--60 people see a show and each calls all their friends to tell them how it was, and they call their friends. And the circle is a big one---an hour drive is no big deal to go see someone that you want to see--that works out to be 120 mile radius. LesB lost more than money, too, because a low turnout and a bad show has a negative effect on the turnout for his future shows, at least the ones by "emerging" acts--

The very least you should do,Les, (other than change your contract in the way Charlie Baum suggested) is to call the booking agent that pawned these losers off on you, and tell him(or her) what happened--chances are, these clowns are doing this on every stop of their tour. They stiffed you for the sake of a few drinks and a meal, and they probably don't have a clue what they did to themselves.

I have put together many concerts and series and it takes a lot of work to fill up those seats--there is a balancing act between what the act draws and what they cost--usually the act will do what they can to make sure you do well because it means they'll be able to come back--

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 03:00 PM

Loreena Mickennett (SP?) used to busk all the time before her concerts... I suspect that they planned to drum up more support and if they were so "So-so" they may have just ended up driving people away...

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 03:15 PM

We do an annual concert in our co-op gardens to raise money for plantings. The audience can be anywhere from 50 to 600. Pre-sell! Pre-sell! Pre-sell! Our costs are covered before the day of the concert.

I have no advice on the behavior of the band. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 04:09 PM

If they'd been good, of course, it would have worked the other way, and the free gig would have built up your numbers. "We saw this great band last night - they're on again tonight round the corner - don't miss them."

At festivals for example, if you pick up on some people you like the look of, you don't say "Seen them, that's it", you go round checking out where you can catch them again, don't you?

Assuming that most of the time you pick people who are pretty good, on balance I'd think that any attempt to stop them performing elsewhere doesn't really make much sense. And it somehow seems a bit disasteful in itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 04:31 PM

Don't base your judgment solely on one person's opinion, i.e. that the band was "so-so." Is the person who said this a devoted jazz fan? An experienced critic? Others' opinions might have been different. Maybe the band DID bring in more business by playing for free. Maybe someone with different taste would have felt differently.

How many people USUALLY go to that bar on Monday and then go to your arts center on Tuesday? Not many, I'll bet. If so, then there were not many people to be driven away in the first place.

Word of mouth doesn't work that fast.

I urge you NOT to try to prevent performers from doing what that band did. A little advance publicity will nearly always help you more than hurt you. The band would have to be REALLY AWFUL to drive away more audience members than they attract, and if they're that bad, it's partly your fault for hiring them in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: Cappuccino
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 05:29 PM

Surely it depends why and how they wanted to play the other gig. If they were doing it openly to advertise and promote the 'real' show, as I think Clinton's suggesting, then that's pretty admirable - if it's a question of "here's just a sample of what you'll hear if you come along to the arts centre", then that's fine. I've seen artists busking outside a venue for that very reason, to drum up business, putting in some promotional work without detracting from the 'real' show. But if they just wanted to make an extra bit of money and didn't care about any adverse effect on the show they've been booked to do, that's wrong. And in practical terms, audiences won't come back the next night to see somebody they liked - people just don't have the time or money to do that these days. Well, not in Britain, they don't. Sorry, folks, I come down on the side of the arts centre, and say the band was acting unethically. - Ian B

Subject: RE: BS: Free samples - what's fair ?
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 06:23 PM

Well, there's plenty of food for thought here. Generally we don't have this kind of worry - a group of modern dancers, or the cast from the touring company of "Footloose" or "Mahalia" just don't go out on the town gigging !

And yes, there is some question if the "so-so" critic was all that informed. I agree we shouldn't be booking "so-so" acts, and in this area of presenting (jazz), one person's meat is really another's poison. In general, jazz has not been a big seller on our stage for years - which is why we strive to accomodate groups touring through; we're promoting artistic diversity and that sort of thing.

We will know next time -- if it's a small jazz, folk, or bluegrass act -- to watch out for this particular little wrinkle!