The right to kill??

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: Grab
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:42 AM

Guest, you're not allowed to attack them until you believe you are in actual danger. Shouting "I'm going to kill you" over their shoulders as they run away is in a _very_ different league to shouting "I'm going to kill you" whilst running towards you. No matter if they do mean it at the time, they aren't threatening you at the time, so you do not under any system of justice have the right to shoot them. If they try to act on the threat then you can do what you like, but until that time it's just an empty threat.

As a police officer, Maxine has undoubtedly had many threats and insults shouted at her by drunken yobs after closing time. But so long as those yobs show no signs of crossing the street to accost her and don't throw bottles at her, they are free to shout.

Graham.

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 11:04 AM

Kendall is correct - in a confrontation one must make the best judgement call one can.

LH - I cannot for the life of me think of an instance when killing is thought of as an act of heroism. At least for those who have performed this act that I know personally. Killing is something that sits in the head and heart for the rest of one's life.

Guest once called me "Armed and Humorless." When armed I am humorless. Kind of sad really but I take being armed very seriously - I would really not like to add to the list of dead people I talk to.

I'm glad neither of you was hurt Annamill.

Steve

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: annamill
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 11:28 AM

GUEST, I'm sorry if I didn't make everything clear. I've never been involved in the gun/no gun threads because I don't know how I feel about the whole thing. This story shows how I felt about one situation.

I didn't know he wasn't aggressive and dangerous. He might have been and if I had a gun I would have probably killed him.

I'm just saying I'm glad I didn't have one at that moment in time. If the circumstances were different, maybe I would have wanted a gun.

I still don't know how I feel about the whole thing.

It's a very confusing issue with good arguments on both sides.

I don't know...

L.A.

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 11:56 AM

My Dads flat was broken into on Tuesday night. My Dad and his wife, Annie, are both 80 years old. It was 2am and Dad was disturbed from his sleep. When he entered the living room he found a young man ransacking the cupboard.

Fortunately the robber fled out of the window he had forced an entry through, but not before he had snatched a handbag containing around £25.

What would of happened if he had not fled? Both Dad and Annie have Angina and while I am sure Dad would have given him a run for his money, he is still a strong bloke, such a confrontation may have killed both of them.

The police response? Nothing we can do I'm afraid, sir. Unless you can identify the intruder we have nothing to go on! Huh! What is going on here?

This guy, as far as I am concerned, callously targeted an old couple. This is tantamount to attempted murder. If Dad would have had a gun would he be right to use it? Damned right he would. Should he have used it if the intruder ran away? Seeing as the thief took the trouble to take their belongings - Again yes. What would have happened if the bag contained the Angina medicine that Annie needed desperately after the shock? Did the thief stop to consider the consequences. Did he hell!

It is so annoying that the only 'crimes' that the police seem sucessful at combating are those where the perpetrators are, in the main, decent law abiding citizens.

It is so frustrating that the only people who whinge about the infringement of civil liberties are those who have something to hide.

There, off my soapbox now. Rant mode back in the drawer...

All that said I don't think there can really be such a thing as a 'right to kill'. Rights seem to be considered automatic - all these things should be reviewed in context.

Just my 2 pen'orth.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: annamill
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:55 PM

Dave, I am so glad your parents were ok.

Heres a question to consider. If there were a way for your Dad to grab hold of the crook and keep him safely away from your Dad and his wife until the police arrived, would that of been good enough for you?

I know at this time there is really no way to do this, but who knows, maybe someone here at Mudcat could come up with something. Maybe a tranquilizer gun that works immediately. Or something else..

Then we wouldn't have to kill at all, well, not right away anyway.

L.A.

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 02:15 PM

The tranquiliser or stun gun would do for me Annamill. A a very good point indeed and thanks for the kind words.

Trouble is, here in the UK, even that is illegal! If my Dad, or me, or one of my daughters were even to wave a can of mace at an intruder or mugger it would be us who would be on the receiving end of a prison sentance!

The world certainly seems upside down at the moment. Or is it case of the inmates running the assylum? I'm never sure sure of the right metaphor to use perhaps I should be arrested for murdering the language;-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 02:29 PM

Yes, I agree with Kendall and Norton that "in a confrontation one must make the best judgement call one can."

That's why no one has one simple answer that is going to fit all situations here.

- LH

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 03:47 PM

I'm aware of the difference Grab... but if faced with the possibility they were serious and would come back... I would shoot them. I expect to suffer in prison, but at least my family and I will live. Its easier to get parole than be dug out of a grave.

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 05:04 PM

The crucial difference with Martin, which made it murder -it was reduced to manslaughter on appeal purely because of his mental condition - was that, having shot the intruders,he made no effort whatsoever to get on to the police or the hospital or anyone.

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 01:32 PM

What sort of gun did Tony Martin have? I know the UK has restrictions on firearms.

The thing is, if you are going to pull a gun on someone - you MUST be prepared to use it, and not just wield it for intimidation's sake. And when you shoot, aim small, miss small. People get so upset when the police shoot someone, and often rightfully so - but they are not trained to shoot to maim, they shoot to kill. They don't mess around. And if you have a gun, you shouldn't mess around either.

Now, that being said... personally, I would not WANT to shoot someone. But if I believed my life were in danger, I would not hesitate.

Mr. Martin's behavior after the fact does seem a little unusual but everyone has a different response in a crisis situation. This sort of reminds me of Bernhard Goetz, at least the little bit I can remember. He shot some kids on a subway, claiming self defense, but there were some other circumstances at work. I believe he went to prison and is there still. Anyone who knows more about it, please comment.

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 02:07 PM

I remember reading, not so many years ago, about a man who had had a series of burglaries of his mobile home, which always occurred when he was out of town. The police (surprise! surprise!) were no help. He decided on self-help.

He built a shotgun trap in his mobile home, with the gun loaded with buckshot and aimed at the door. Then he did what I suppose he thought was the humane thing: He posted a prominent sign outside that door, "Shotgun trap inside! If you break in, you WILL be shot!"

The burglar took advantage of the man's absence and, if he read the sign, ignored it, and was killed. The homeowner was convicted--I don't know whether manslaughter or murder.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: The right to kill??
From: Red Eye
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 11:48 PM

Tony Martin had been burgled on many occasions and had a lack of confidence in the police's attitude. I personally believe that if someone enters your home illegally then they give up the right to be treated as an equal citizen. Don't rob and no harm will come to you. Is that too simplistic??