Where is God?

Subject: Where is God?
From: EarlofSidcup
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 03:16 AM

From a letter in today's Daily Telegraph:

SIR - Have I just heard the first fruits of the proposed legislation to make incitement to religious hatred a criminal offence? Speaking on the Today programme yesterday morning, the Bishop of Oxford referred to "the divine mystery at the centre of the universe", presumably to avoid giving pre-eminence to the Christian Deity through use of the exclusive epithet God, which claim, he must have thought, could be interpreted by worshippers of other gods as an incitement to religious hatred.

I tried out this new religious correctness on Genesis 1, v 3-4:

"And this divine mystery at the centre of the universe said, Let there be light: and there was light. And the divine mystery at the centre of the universe saw the light, that it was good; and the divine mystery at the centre of the universe divided the light from the darkness."

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: X
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 03:23 AM

Where is God? I think I just saw him in the eyes of my 85 year old mother.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 04:47 AM

Where's God? Anywhere you care to make her.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 05:24 AM

According to Clapton fans He'll probably be at the Albert Hall around Christmas.
RtS (nearly at the bottom of the old jokes bin)

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 09:54 AM

"And this divine mystery at the centre of the universe said, Let there be light: and there was light. And the divine mystery at the centre of the universe saw the light, that it was good; and the divine mystery at the centre of the universe divided the light from the darkness."

--EarlofSidcup

Actually, I like that. It has a kind of beauty. I think you could clean it up a bit, though...

"And this divine mystery at the centre of the universe wished there to be light, and there was light. From the centre of the universe, this divine mystery knew the light and it was good. And the light was divided from the darkness."

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 11:16 AM

*Singing*

There's no god
And precious few heros

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 11:22 AM

'Dunmanifestin', a well-appointed retirement home in Eastbourne for superannuated deities.

My friend's cousin's sister works there, and she has a terrible time breaking up the fights between old El himself (he will insist on being addressed as YHWH though) and the rest of the Elohim, who still resent being sidelined... but hey, what goes around comes around.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 12:04 PM

Sorry to add yet another smart-arse comment, but doesn't referring to a single indivisible divine mystery offend pantheistic religious followers like hindus? There are more of them here than I'd care to upset.

Steve

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 01:06 PM

Who says a divine mystery has to be indivisible?

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 07:53 PM

I saw starving children,and, I screamed at God. The, I realized that those starving children were God screaming at me.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Cappuccino
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 10:37 AM

Thanks, Kendall, I needed one more saying for a charity 'book of inspirational thoughts' I'm commissioned to write. If you can say where that one came from, or if it's yours, I'd appreciate a PM.

Regards, - Ian B

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 10:53 AM

Footprints.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 01:52 PM

Sorry, I dont remember where I got it, it's too profound to be mine.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 01:58 PM

Here is another favorite of mine: The Devil loves an unwanted child. (Henry Kranz, mountain man insights) Henry is a resident at Kripalu in West Stockbridge Mass.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 02:00 PM

"for God so loved the world..."

Givn that man was made in His image, He should understand a bit about our lives, and how we feel.

Given that, He's got a piss-poor way of showing his love

Maybe it will all become clear when I'm dead, but I doubt it.

Paul

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: marty D
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 04:20 PM

Sadly, God is right there by the side of anyone who says he is no matter how heinous or noble their deed. He was certainly there with the terrorist pilots before they crashed the planes, and obviously was with the victims before they died.

He's with those who feed the starving, on condition they convert to the faith of their 'benefactors'.

He's with those who want their Nations to remain 'pure'.

As a church goer in my youth I was very sad when I started realizing that God was used by so many as simply an excuse for cruel bigoted and wretched behaviour. As part of a religious community I felt too intimidated to rock the boat when abuses were obvious. To be able to see right and wrong clearly and not through an idealogical filter has been a blessing to me, and is MY idea of being 'born again'.

Sorry to be 'heavy', but the question WAS asked.

marty (scampering back to guitar threads!)

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: wildlone
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 05:08 PM

Right there all the time waiting.
dave

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 05:13 PM

Sorry -- there is no "there" there, no "where" to it, and to be able to even ask the question requires a profound inability to hear the answer.

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 06:26 PM

Amos,

Does that mean I doomed then? For the question comes very easily.

Paul

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 06:34 PM

I guess that settles it then, Amos.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 06:40 PM

There were/are no atheists in the trenches.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM

"No atheists in the Trenches"

What a song title. Where's Eric Bogle when ya need him?

Rick

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 03:25 PM

It doesn't mean you're doomed. Anyone can mouth a question. "How high is French?", for example, or "What's the temperature of yesterday?" or "what is the specific density of thought?". "Where is God" is exactly the same sort of mis-postured semantics, mixing frames of references in order to make something up that sounds meaningful but is cast off from any ground truth. There is no "where" there. It's not accessible to measurement in terms of space-time continuua.

Just ask anyone who's been one.

A.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 03:55 PM

I'm still trying to figure out why Earl has a problem with God being referred to as "the divine mystery at the centre of the universe" aside from the length of the politically-correct version. I agree with CarolC that it has its own beauty, a lyrical quality. Besides, "God" is also referred to in the Bible by longer names such as "I am that I am" and by all the descriptive terms that sound somewhat similar to "the divine mystery at the centre of the universe".

I wish we knew the context in which the Bishop of Oxford used the term; then we'd have a better idea whether he was being PC or trying to express his concept of God, or what.

Amos: As long as we're asking questions that are semantically mispostured, how about: "Where the heck is the center of the universe?" (As if an infinite universe had a center! Talk about your mysteries!) (Or do we consider the universe to be finite these days?)

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 04:09 PM

That's an easy one, Sharon. Each of us is the center of our own universe.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: paddymac
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 04:17 PM

I was tossing back a few jars with him/her/it (looks can be so very deceiving these days) at my local last night. I thought he was a he, but some folks thought she was a she, and others seemed to think s/he was undecided. Nobody voted for "it" because it seemed so, well, impersonal. Though (take your choice)didn't say much, the rest of us were discussing the differences between between bin laden, falwell, robertson, and a few hundred other book-thumpers of diverse denominations and more-or-less agreed there wasn't much difference at all. Go figure, eh?

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: beadie
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 04:33 PM

I was walking through the oak grove on the hill behind my barn the other evening, the Deity was ticked off about something or other and bonked me on the gourd with an acorn from one of her branches.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 04:40 PM

Some people don't like to talk about "God," and taking that into account, I have been known to refer to God simply as The Universe.

I don't pretend to know where God/the Universe is, but it's a fact He/It moves in some mighty mysterious ways.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 05:01 PM

Actually, much that the Bishop of Oxford and his fellow Christians could offend me if I want them too. Of course, I've got better things than to be offended by little things as ego-centric religions.

Why would I be offended? Well, to start with there's this whole "monotheistic" thing which so many people interpret as meaning that there is only one god. If you actually look closely at the Ten Commandments no where does it say that there is only one god.

Exodus 20:3-6 - "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..."

No where does it say that there is only one god. It only says that the the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God is to be the only one people should pay attention too. It also tells to not make idols (a part which Christians frequently ignore) and it then goes on to day that the J-C-I God is jealous - frankly that's a pitiful statement to me. People who suffer from jealousy need help (and are committing a mortal sin in some sects). It seems ironic that the same thing that is a sin is something that God appears to be proud of in Himself. So it appears that the Bible upholds the fact that there are many gods in the Universe. It just has the opinion that one is better than the rest. And to be honest, I beleive that from this stems a great deal of the world's problems (the whole "We're better than you" thing.)

SO: where is God? well, if he is a J-C-I God - he's asleep and totally ignoring the plight of his followers.

If not, he/she/it is everywhere and in everything and followes the laws of nature/the Universe. Not playing favorites but helping those who live that traditional ways as closely as possible in harmony with the rest of nature.

Yeah, I know, I've probably made some people mad with the above statements, but frankly, everytime I'm cut-off in traffic by a person on a cell-phone, driving a big gas-guzzling SUV with a fish symbol on the back proclaiming that they are a good Christian I get mad too.

Remember people, when it comes to the Earth - were all in it together.

pax yall

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Maxine
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 05:41 PM

I can think of several times, when I've wanted to punch 'God' on the nose. If he's there, and I really hope he is, he has some serious explaining to do. The older I get(I'm 34 now-yikes!) the more I find I want to believe in something, but bad things happen so often it is difficult. I'm happy to listen to any amount of persuasion - provided it's not from Jehovahs Witnesses. My husband reckons he saw him outside a chip shop in Clapham last week, but I have to tell you, I don't believe him!

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 05:48 PM

Everywhere.

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 06:30 PM

Ok, Amos... here's where I'm having a problem with your absolutism:

If there is no "there", then we have to consider the possibility that all of physical reality is just an idea. In such a case, there is no such thing as "real" other than the meaning we assign to it.

So in that case, the concept of "Amos" is no more real than the concept of "there". With this paradigm, these concepts exist if we decide they do.

So there can be a "there" if we want, or not. As we wish.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 06:44 PM

dead

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 06:46 PM

" God save the King"

"Gotte strafe dei Englanders" (sic)

"My God ", said God " I've got my work cut out"

Gareth

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:03 PM

Wherever you go, "there" you are.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,HippieChick
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:05 PM

It's people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, etc. who give Christianity a bad name. People who believe but don't like thinking find it easy to accept those who appear sure of themselves and outspoken. Doesn't mean they represent the Holy Trinity (one God, 3 parts) or even a lot of Christians. Certainly they don't represent ME!

Certain denominations/sects/what-have-you tie sin and guilt together so tight that the burden is too heavy for most mortal flesh, and so people renounce Jesus because of dogmatism that is way off base from the what Scripture says.

To me, we all sin. Big deal. Confess, repent. The Lord knows the truth of your heart. It's done; overwith. Get on with the rest of your life. When religious folks hand out guilt and shame in a wheelbarrow, people who want something more from God can't get it from organized religion and go elsehwhere.

Salvation would look a lot better to a lot more people if teachings weren't tainted with do's and don'ts and guilt up one side and down the other. It gets in the way of receiving the joy of Jesus.

Yes I'm born again. Yes I'm a socialist/leftwing-bleedingheart/magenta-ish kind of weirdo. My sense of egalitarianism would make most capitalists puke. :) Check my website (shameless advert) http://communities.msn.com/FolkieFolks/ Pete Seeger's defense of our First Amendment rights has it's own page.

*HippieChick steps of her soapbox*

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:06 PM

I believe God is a creative force, and, most of the stuff that has been written about him/her is rubbish.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:11 PM

Well, Carol, that's as you see fit, I am sure. What I understand people to be referring to when they use that poor dogeared term is not something that can have a "where" (in the dimensional sense) by its nature. It's like asking which way water swims. The point I am making is a very simple one. If you reduce or degrade the term to some ridiculous icon or mental image, I suppose you could put that somewhere in the universe, but you wouldn't get very God like answers from it! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:37 PM

I guess that would depend on how you define the concept of "God". Which, if the discussion on this thread is any indication, is hardly a fixed concept.

So I guess some concepts of "God" can have a where, while other conceptes of "God" preclude the possibility of a where, and yet other conceptual realities preclude the possibility of differentiating between "God", "there", and "Amos".

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:02 PM

All of the above, plus the negation of those, plus other stuff that hasn't even been spoken of here...or can be. For reference material, consult the holy books of every religion on Earth, plus the writings of great thinkers and philosophers out of every civilization in history...

And then you will just have scratched the surface.

That out of which all observable manifestations arise cannot properly be spoken of as "dead" since it is itself the source of both life and death, which would not exist as concepts in someone's mind had they not arisen out of the unmanifest in the first place.

That which was there before either life or death is what life and death are now merely secondary reflections of.

And nothing we say here matters....or it all does. Take your pick, according to your free will to believe anything you care to...quite a burden to have to bear! It would be so much easier to just have some "leader" tell you what to believe, wouldn't it? That explains why most people make such good followers and conformists.

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: DancingMom
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:21 PM

...WITHIN...

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:37 PM

Ah! Now you're really onto something. Bravo, Dancing Mom!

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:48 PM

From Conversation At Midnight by Edna St Vincent Millay

(Anselmo, the priest, after playing some Bach, has left the group to go home. His dear friend, compatriot, but agnostic, Ricardo remarks):

Whatever the case for God, the splendour of Man
Cannot be questioned.
This Music, this

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Edmund
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:58 PM

From Conversation At Midnight by Edna St Vincent Millay

(Anselmo, the priest, after playing some Bach, has left the group to go home. His dear friend, compatriot, but agnostic, Ricardo remarks):

Whatever the case for God, the splendour of Man
Cannot be questioned.
This Music, this impeccable, projected
By peccant men, who even as they laboured sank and died
Irrefutable witness to that splendour stands

It speaks more loud
Than the waves that batter
The wild bluf: There is no God,
But it does not matter
Man is enough.

Sorry I messed up the first try .... Edmund

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 09:03 PM

As somebody whould be called a "liberal Catholic," I guess that from a theological standpoint, I have no problem with the use of the term, "the divine mystery at the centre of the universe." From a literary standpoint, it drives me bonkers. Used once, it's pretty good - but I'd hate to see God referred to like that every time. We liberals like to rename things with long, politically-correct titles that we think are devoid of the prejudices held by our forefathermothers. In the process, we murder the language and end up sounding trite. Worse yet, we turn to acronyms.

Our DMATCOTU, who art in heaven....

Actually, I wish liberals would get over their hangups about words, and not get so damn upset about how other people talk.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 09:12 PM

That's a fine poem, Edmund. Much of what I have read suggests to me that man is God, incarnate, but just hasn't fully realized it yet. A god who isn't fully conscious cannot fully realize godliness, but can certainly have glimpses of it, and achieve it in fleeting moments.

Every man's God is exactly what he thinks it is. An atheist's gods are reason, logic, material things, and physical survival. That's a game with limited results, which always ends in a final and total defeat (death), but if it's all one believes in, then it is entirely sufficient to meet one's expectations for what one chooses to call "life"...a temporary field of existence.

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From:
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 10:06 PM

Bethlehem

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 10:34 PM

The amazing philosopher Georges Bataille writes that God is everything that ISN'T oneself, including the unfathomable other. This makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: 53
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 10:48 PM

where do you think he is? BOB

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 10:50 PM

The Universalists like to dally with the notion of the circle whose center is nowhere, and whose perimeter is everywhere....

This particular referent does have a "place in existence". It simply does not have location (physical x,y,z coordinated location) as an attribute.

To reduce is to semantic wishwashand make semantic silly putty is to deny the Quality of it.

This is no more "absolutist", as Carol complains, than it is to say that water is wet. it isn't wet because some think it is, and not because others think not. The wetness of water is a fact, not an opinion.

If you want a more acceptable answer to the question, try, "In the mirror". It's a silly question.

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 10:51 PM

Guest:

Bethlehem - do you mean in the closed steel mills or maybe in a shop in downtown?

pax

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 11:04 PM

What makes you think I was complaining?

You say that "to be able to even ask the question requires a profound inability to hear the answer."

And to that I say, "how's your hearing, Amos?

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 11:08 PM

"Let The Mystery Be"------good song---!

And take the Bible for the metaphor that the entire book BU>IS.

And please try to refrain from concretizing selected aspects of what otherwise is a fairly decent general outline for a good life --- all in the name of YOUR particular religion. (just my opinion--- I do realize that nothing I say will or should convince anyone else.)

Art

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 11:19 PM

Anyway, define "wet". If there was a type of sentient being that lived deep in the ocean and had no access to the water surface, and you tried to explain "wet" to it, it would not be able to comprehend what you were trying to convey. So even "wet" is a relative concept.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 11:22 PM

I don't know how the hell the BU> happened. Must've been the hand of Coyote playfully tricking around with our heads again.

And He took away my cookie as well.(cookie = biscuit in Oz--Bob Bolton told me so I know). ;-)

Art THIEME----

***There, he did it again. I didn't capitalize my last mane. (Er---name) Some of you probably have noticed that He's messed up my spelling all these years that I've hung around Mudccat. Oh, lack-a-day. Oh,dack-a-lay!

art again

Subject: Lyr Add: LET THE MYSTERY BE (DeMent)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 11:22 PM

Gee, Art, I guess nobody's posted that song. It's one of my favorites, too.
-Joe Offer-

---

LET THE MYSTERY BE
(Iris DeMent)
(c) 1992 Songs of Iris/Forerunner Music, Inc. ASCAP

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from
everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go
when the whole thing's done
but no one knows for certain
and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Some say once you're gone you're gone forever
and some say you're gonna come back
Some say you rest in the arms of the Saviour
if in sinful ways you lack
Some say that they're comin' back in a garden
bunch of carrots and little sweet peas
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from
everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go
when the whole thing's done
but no one knows for certain
and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory
and I ain't saying it ain't a fact
but I've heard that I'm on the road to purgatory
and I don't like the sound of that
I believe in love and I live my life accordingly
but I choose to let the mystery be

Everybody is wondering what and where they all came from
everybody is worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go
when the whole thing's done
but no one knows for certain
and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be
I think I'll just let the mystery be

http://www.irisdement.com

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 11:26 PM

Right on, Amos, it's a decidedly silly question! But it can spawn some interesting chitchat, can't it?

It's like a fish posing the question "Where is the ocean?" :-) Some atheistic fish assert that in fact there is no ocean...or if there is it happened by some fortuitous accident. Seriously atheistic fish assert that the ocean is "dead", implying that it was alive once, but has now lost relevance. (Due to human industrial and commercial activities, this may well be the case in a fairly short time.) Religiously fanatical fish assert that their particular ocean (Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, etc...) is the ONLY ocean, and that fish who believe in other oceans are going to hell or some other nasty punishment like that.

A more enlightened fish might come to the conclusion that he himself is part of the ocean, as are all other fish, and that the ocean is within him as well as outside him, and that furthermore it is not susceptible to bribery ( {"Oh, please, Great Ocean, just do this one thing for me and I'll never overeat again..."), favoritism ("Help me to kill those bad fish in the other lagoon!") or emotional blackmail ("If I don't win the lottery this time, I'm through with you!") Still, it provides all the basics of life in a most generous fashion...from a fish's point of view.

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 11:52 PM

ATHEIST=someone with no invisible means of support

Wow--!!!! My cookie's back.

Art

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 12:06 AM

My hearing is impeccable, thank you.

And I have heard enough silliness to last me a week. I think I will leave the joy of this thread to others.

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 12:07 AM

Never had a problem with there being some form of Diety, but Oh brother do his PR people get tiresome, 'specially the six figure ones!

Rick

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 12:25 AM

I have heard enough silliness to last me a week. I think I will leave the joy of this thread to others.

Some people just don't know how to party ;-)

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 01:39 AM

Art,

Coyote has been messing around here for years. I think it's because the place is called MudCAT. Coyote is a deity that could easily be offended by such a minimal slight. And if I'm wrong my Coyote have Raven strike me d

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 03:16 AM

Fifty-one [aye, fifty-one] years past September, I was struggling down a mine drift with hundreds of others to try finding a way through to a hundred and twenty-nine of our mates entombed seemingly without hope . There was a ten-inch "I"-beam halfway down that drift, bent and twisted by years of fighting the irresistable movement of Mother Earth, dark with rust and dripping foul water; in eight-inch high letters in scrawled white paint right across the width of the mine were the words "God Is Love". We got these lads out, all but thirteen. From that day to this, I pay no attention whatever to the tripe in the Old Testament, and limited attention to some of the "eyewitness" stuff in the New. That guy John the Baptist had it right though; I reckon we proved it back then--as mamy others did before and since. Boab ---and any religion which depends for its survival on threats of hellfire, or bribes of some advent to a dead boring place where you can't even play an accordion and drink guinness doesn't merit survival! Boab again.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: EarlofSidcup
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 04:11 AM

Well, this has turned into an interesting discussion. I have no views myself, merely brought to wider attention a letter by somebody in The Daily Telegraph, which was actually about 'proposed legislation to make incitement to religious hatred a criminal offence'

Any views on that?

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Bates from Birregurra
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 07:14 AM

"Down by the Barwon" !!!

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 09:29 AM

Incitement of hatred is naturally and universally a civil offense, even where not recognized as such. It is an offense against the fabric of life that makes survival and futures possible.

Incitement to religous hatred is a bit of a sticky wicket. Interesting idea though. What would be "religous hatred"'s defintion? Hatred attributed to Higher Truth. God, what malarkey!! As long as one religion or none is not specified, it is not exactly mixing state matters in with the religous ones, and in fact is blocking up the dyke between them. Which I favor .

I think it is risky, interesting, experiment in a good purpose. Hard to say how it might turn out. If it has chilling effects on free speech it will of course be bad news despite good intentions. That's the big risk.

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 09:38 AM

Amos, I enjoy this sort of give and take. You never know when you are going to learn something! I have a friend who is a real visionary, and, he explains it like this: We think of love as an emotion and that's all. That is NOT all. Love is also the fastest and most powerful force in the universe. Love had to slow down to become light, light had to slow down to become gravity. Love, the energy, the force or God, if you will is what created and maintains the universe. Man, as usual, had to "humanize" God, and there have been wars ever since between those who disagree on what it is all about. To look around you and see the miracles in this universe, and say "There is no God" is like getting up from a great banquet and declaring, "There is no chef."

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 11:45 AM

There are no aetheists in the trenches

Maybe - but to not believe is to believe. And all of the above is correct.

And my dear sweet Jan says that Love is not just something - - it is what you Do!! An act of some form. And knowing how much she must do to Love me makes me a believer in that aspect of God is Love.

God, The Creator, Him, Her, He, She, whatever - all the same to me.

A couple of weekends ago Jan and I rode our bikes down to Twin Falls, about a hundred miles one way, and back. Now to do this in Idaho in the middle of November is a pure act of optimism. Especially when it is spitting rain and snow and we believe the sun is going to come out!! The sun did come out a couple of times, the most beautiful rainbow I've ever seen, and a sunset that took our breath away. Made freezing our butts off more than worth while.

That God exists I have never really doubted. And I have been pissed off enough at Him to shoot Him with my M-14 rifle one evening in Viet Nam. Talk about being human - oh well - another story for another time.

Interesting discussion.

And the real answer is in Guest's message Dead - so Guest has the body - where is He Guest?

Steve

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 11:49 AM

Lovely description, Kendall. I hope you don't mistake what I said earlier to imply atheism on my part. I just get terribly impatient with people who think they can find the chef hiding whole in the breadbasket. The notion that space-time and light are condensates of "love" is a good one, although I think the term "love" in this context could be misleading, but never mind. I would be inclined to call it thought, life-force, or awareness, all of which are meant to capture the same thing.

I do think, and this is the paradox of the great cross-over in cosmology, that there is that within every diner who is, himself, chef of all. The great burden of human-stupid religous brickbats derives from placing a wall between the chef part and the diner part.

This includes being a diner asserting the chef is elsewhere, or being a diner denyionng chefhood anywhere, or any other panjandrum brouhaha of silly significance about it. All this silliness comes when we mistakes thoughts for direct awareness, and perception stuffed into words as substitutes for the real thing. But I ramble some....

Warmest regards,

A.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 12:04 PM

For the folks out in cyberspace that may not know---COYOTE is considered by many Native American tribes to be the trickster god the one who is joyfully always throwing the wrench into the gears of our best made plans.

Please see the song by the late AL GRIERSON called "Old Coyote" that I posted in the thread I titled something like The Best Song Ever Written. It really is a wonderful document.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 01:13 PM

Amos, Kendall...good thoughts there.

Rick - 6 figures??? Hell, I haven't got paid even 5 cents for pontificating on this forum! 2 figures would be enough to make me happy. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 01:22 PM

I guess my whole point in my little back and forth with you, Amos, is that while you certainly have the right to your beliefs, for people whose beliefs differ from yours, it is no more palatable for you to be self-riteous and condescending about about them than it is for religious fundamentalist to cram their beliefs down the throats of those of us with different ideas.

How about a little tolerance, eh?

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 02:08 PM

And some tribes believe that simply seeing Coyote is enough to warrant a cleansing ceremony.

Steve

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,little john cameron
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 02:40 PM

Ask him yersel
http://www.reata.org/interview2.html
ljc

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 03:13 PM

Excuse me, Carol, but I was not being intolerant that I could see. Would you like to point out what I said that was intolerant? I was simply trying to clarify the semantic obfuscations that get promulgated on this murky subject. There's a big difference between insisting on clear statements, semantically, and being intolerant. I'll te;; you what though -- if you prefer to asser that all these terms -- including "where", "is" and "God" are essentially based on personal preference and are not in fact definable on any other basis, then the discussion is a granfaloon, and a waste of time. De gustibus no disputandum, and all that. If you believe there are definitions to the question, then when you get ready to state what you think they are, maybe some real ideas can be exchanged.

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 03:49 PM

"There are no aetheists in the trenches."

This is simply a lie. It makes no sense whatsoever. My father served in WWII and was a life-long Athiest. When his life was in mortal danger, he did not suddenly begin to believe in some sort of diety. My Grandfater and two of his brothers served in the trenches in WWI. All were Athiests. One of his brothers was gassed and lived the rest of his life in pain and disorientation from the effects. They all continued to be Athiests. I had a great-great grandfather who served in the Civil War and he was an Atheist too.

Fear of death does not "convert" people ot Theism - maybe some, but how strong were their beliefs to begin with? When my dad died, he believed that nothing would happen except that he would loose consiousness and his body would deteriorate (and be cremated). That would be it - he was confortable with that belief and would never have wanted "anything more". If he was wrong, so be it. I have chosen to become Pagan and Unitarian Universalist. A someone who was born and raised in an Atheist household, I am very comfortable with Atheism. My personal beliefs are that the Universe is a living entity, nearly infinately more complicated that a human, and I have respect for that but I do not worship it or any God. I do not know what will happen to me when I die, but I tend to believe that my energy (read life-force or soul if you want) will go into the cosmos and intermingle with all the other energy. When a new life is created, some of my energy will enter in that body (along with billions of other's energies). But I could be wrong - frankly I don't really care. Maybe I'll end up in Heaven, but like I tell some Christian fundamentalists - If heaven is populated with a bunch of them, I'll happily go to Hell. - now, get me my handbasket!

pax yall

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: SharonA
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 04:04 PM

Blackcatter: Thanks for your comment; that "trenches" platitude always bothered me.

I think it was Little Hawk who said, above: "That out of which all observable manifestations arise cannot properly be spoken of as "dead" since it is itself the source of both life and death, which would not exist as concepts in someone's mind had they not arisen out of the unmanifest in the first place."

Hmmm... I would've thought the concepts of life and death existed in someone's mind because that person had observed other people, animals and plants that lived and died. Until that person sees anyone or anything die, he couldn't form a concept of "death" in his mind. He would form, at best, an inaccurate concept of "life" until he sees life end and renew itself.

What about this concept that life and death "arose out of the unmanifest" and that it is the "source of both life and death"? Sorry, but I think that's just something someone thought up to explain life and death before the era of scientific research answered at least some of his questions about life and death. It may someday answer them all, it may not; but I think that man's experimentation is a better way of finding answers than man's creation of belief systems that didn't exist before he invented them. The proclamation of a "divine mystery" only intimidates some people from solving the mystery.

So why does man think there needs to be a source of life and death, and why does he invent deities and "the unmanifest" and such? In order to prolong life and improve its quality, and in order to die at peace with himself (whether at rest or at war!). To make himself feel better physically and emotionally... and for the person who believes in what he or another person has invented, that often does make him feel better (how do we know? Through scientific research into the ways in which the brain can be trained to trigger the release of chemicals in the body, and even to deprive itself of certain chemicals in order to achieve a "prayerful" or trance state).

Some may assert that it is "God" or "the unmanifest" or the "DMATCOTU" that/who created man so that he would seek a creator and find that physical and emotional comfort in it/him/her, but I think that's just part of man's invention (an excuse for believing, if you will: "I believe because God made me believe... I believe so, anyway").

So, to answer the question "Where is God?" I think that "God" is "in" the believer (in that "God" is in the believer's mind as the believer's invention, or as the invention of someone else who has convinced the believer of its validity). As to which invention is the "right" one: whatever works! (In other words, if your belief is helping you be the best you can be physically and emotionally, that's the invention that's right for you) (or, to use Amos's chef analogy, some think the food is better with more garlic, others with less).

To answer the question "Any views on proposed legislation to make incitement to religious hatred a criminal offence" Of course, if a person feels better after persecuting someone else for a differing religious belief and inciting others to hate that someone, the persecutor may believe even more strongly that his "God" is the "right" one (for having increased the persecutor's sense of well-being). So now his invention of "God" is an excuse for hatred. The problem is in not accepting that others must invent their own concepts of "God", and sometimes in not even allowing others to invent a different "God". Sooner or later this will fail; people will eventually succeed in resisting that kind of morally criminal force. But in the meantime, is the persecutor a criminal in the legal sense?

Well, I guess I would need a legal definition of "incitement". For instance, I hate what the Taliban has done in the name of religion, and I would certainly like to convince anyone else that what the Taliban has done is hateful, but would I be charged as a criminal if I spoke out against the Taliban??? I think the criminal charges should be reserved for inciting to perpetrate a crime (murder, assault, etc.) upon someone, whether for the reason of religious intolerance or any other reason. But that's just my "God" talking. ;^)

(BTW, my "God" isn't an invented deity at all, just a set of conclusions that I've reached and morals that I am happy to adhere to. Here again, I think man invented morals – in order to exist in a society – but invented deities to give credence to those morals and to reinforce the desire for society members to live by those morals, by turning them into commands to be obeyed.)

Sharon

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 04:21 PM

It's all so individual. In 1966 I would have shot anyone telling me there was a God that would allow what I had witnessed. Therefore there was no God. In my unit there were some who believed and others who believed in the law of fire superiority - I was a member of the latter. So as I said earlier the no atheists in trenches isn't a very good truth for me. I still struggle with it. But I sure as hell am not going to perpetuate my truth on someone else.

Sharon is right on for me - God is whatever or whomever one has created to be at peace with one's beliefs. If that be aetheism - good enough for me. It does come from within - even if it is sucked from an outside source to the inside space.

Like Blackcatter implies - if it takes getting shot at to make you a believer - sorry that don't cut it - how strong was your faith to begin with.

It's like today in America after the attack - "God bless Amnerica" is everywhere - where was it before? And where were the flags before? Just $19.95 + S&H will make you a true blue patriot. Just my opinion -

Steve

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: beadie
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 04:25 PM

A seldom quoted passage from the end of one version of the creation verses in Exodus that proves the falacy of the evolutionist theory and casts God in a distinctly modern (libertarian) light:

- - And God saw everything He had made, and He saw that it was exceeding good; and God said "It just goes to show Me what the private sector can accomplish. With a lot of damn fool government regulations, this could have taken billions of years." - -

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: SharonA
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 04:39 PM

LOL, beadie!!! (psst... the creation verses are in Genesis...)

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 04:39 PM

to even ask the question requires a profound inability to hear the answer.

It's a silly question

These kinds of statements come across as condescending and intolerant. If there are some people who believe that there can be a "where" or a "there" in reference to "God", it is there belief, and it is not subject to the test of what you consider logical or acceptable. It just is.

And a discussion of this sort is never a waste of time unless all of the parties involved in it think it is. It may be a wast of your time, but the rest of us get to decide whether or not we think it's a waste of our time, regardless of whether or not it meets your criteria.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 04:53 PM

And those who believe continue to believe, and those who don't still don't. God bless 'em all!

Jerry

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 05:18 PM

Just to let you know I've been here, and reading your thoughts. Funny how much three little words can draw out--

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 05:20 PM

Gee, Carol, thanks for putting me straight there. Just what I needed.

Sheesh.

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 05:22 PM

You're welcome, Amos.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 05:52 PM

I'm with you, Kendall.... but it reminds me of that line in Mame where she says, "Life's a banquet and most poor sonsabitches are starving to death." ;-)

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 08:02 PM

If I were to post the rest of what I believe, Spaw and his gang would kidnap me, and, put me in the Niel Young ctr.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 08:05 PM

Aw, Kendall, give it your best shot -- you might enjoy the change of venue! You're already out on the limb next to mine, anyway...worst you'll get is a buckshot load of superciliosity....and you already have the antibody for it, I reckon.

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:14 AM

Sharon - Beautifully said and well reasoned! As regards the life and death of organic physical creatures in nature (including us people) you are absolutely right. One forms ideas about it by directly observing it....or by being told things about it by other people...or both. I still say it arose out of the unmanifest (which existed before the "big bang"), but that's just faith on my part.

I also believe that everything is alive in a certain sense...even things which are considered inert, such as rocks or air, but that doesn't mean they are alive in a biological sense or that they are conscious. If you look at their atoms, however, you find them full of active little packets of energy, and I define that energy as a very basic form of life.

So for me, everything is alive, and death is a term which denotes merely the ending of one specific life form as it changes to some other type of living manifestation. A person's body dies, and then its parts disassociate, but the protons, neutrons and electrons that made it up don't die...they go on to form other things. Life never really ends, but it constantly changes, and thus appears to die in an outward sense to someone who is observing the process. Ego identities, however, most certainly die. They are a temporary mask on the face of life.

Just my particular view on that subject...

Of course, I'm crazy... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:20 AM

No, Little Hawk. You're one of the sanest people I know. And I can say that because I've spent time with you in the 3D world.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:28 AM

Don't blow his cover Carol!

Rick

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:03 AM

I'm with you, Blackcatter; Rab Burns put it in a succinct wee parcel in one of his "epitaphs"-----p "Here lies Boghead amang the dead,In hopes tae get salvation---But if such as he in Heav'n may be, then welcome, hail Damnation!"

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:02 AM

LH, you and I agree on much of what you said. I dont know about rocks, but, I do believe that all living things simply pass from form to formless ad infinitum.

Amos, you asked for it. I believe that we came here into this 3 d world to teach and to learn. We came with our own agenda, and we chose our parents and living situation according to what lessons we have to learn. Those who blame God, are aiming at the wrong entity. WE chose this incarnation, not he/she. We are all on the ladder/stairs toward enlightenment. Some of us are old souls having gone through many incarnations, and some are young souls with many incarnations ahead of us. Jesus, Budda and Gahndi are examples of enlightenment. They are way ahead of most of us on that ladder, in fact, they are probably already one with God. Eventually, we will all be re-united with the creator. So, stop blaming God, you asked for it.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:57 AM

Ah, Kendall, kindred souls are a joy to see. I would add --"You not only asked for it -- hell, you designed it!". I think the great flaw in religious schools I have studied is the underestimation of potential and actual power in the individual human spirit. But, in many cases, they were founded to keep that power in check anyway so whaddya expect!

The classic model of the Wheel kind of paints this picture, as though we were all bubbles cycling up in a champagne bottle, and then back down, hopefully at a higher level each time. But I draw one distinction. Some schools hold that the great aspiration of all souls is to get off the wheel, or go gaseous at the top of the bottle, so to speak. They talk about becoming One with All as the nature of the enlightened state.

Personally I intend a fully operational two-way ticket. The complete avatar able to operate identities at any scale at will, release them at will, become one with all or not at will, is a much fuller definition of my notion of full enlightenment. I'm not interested in permanent assimilation. Hell, I use a Mac, too! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:54 AM

I even like the rocks Kendall - Steve

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:15 AM

Little Hawk says: "...for me, everything is alive, and death is a term which denotes merely the ending of one specific life form as it changes to some other type of living manifestation."

LH, I absolutely agree with that. I'm glad that you mentioned atoms, which reinforces my point about scientific research having answered at least some questions about life and death.

Thanks for the compliment! Also, nice point about "ego identities" as a temporary mask on the face of life (there's my thought-to-ponder for the day!).

Sharon

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:20 AM

Wow! We are approaching a consensus here. Almost unprecedented!

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:13 PM

answer here

Back in the 1960s, The Evergreen Review published a long article on Pataphysics, which explains the whole thing. Just do a Google search on Pataphysics and Alfred Jarry, and you'll soon comprehend it all....honest....would I lead you astray?

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:22 PM

Well, there's pataphysics and there's petaphysics, derived from the Old French peter to fart, found in the derivative "petard", a small cannon-like weapon, as in "hoist by his own petard". Petaphysics is the science and art of flatulence, and the Mudcat is honored to have among its memebers one of the world's most advanced scholars of the subject, Mister Bubba Catspaw49 himself, in constant attendance. He was written numerous tomes in the field and is conisered one of the world's leading experts on the typographical representation of petaphysical dynamic analog atmospheric density waveforms, as a brief review of his many posts will surely substantiate.

As to whether Bill D would ever lead you astray, it depends on your curves and the shape of your maidenhead.

Regards,

A.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:01 PM

I sense a bit of circularity here. Sure, man invents morals and similarly invents "God." But the flip side is the more interesting question of who/what invented man/consciousness. Having said man invents God, you bootstrap (hogtie?) yourself into saying man invented himself.

Did I say that right? (I'm still doing this without the benefit of Amos' dictionary which never arrived.) I'm pretty much with Litle Hawk, right down to the rocks, but those (Eastern?) religions which avoid the Big Question, because it is unknowable, have still avoided the Big Question. "In the beginning. . . . " And so has this thread (because we must.) But it sucks. I want to see, touch, hear or somehow sense the unmanifest from which the rocks and consciousness arose. But, like Amos, I don't really want to vaporize, or etherize.

I think Gautama's answer was "fuck it, just let it go." And I try.

Dan

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:04 PM

GUEST (Dan): I think man just growed.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:14 PM

Yeah, Sharon, there's no more accurate answer than that. Eloquence, for sure, but no more accuracy.

Dan

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:49 PM

I take it you know the literary (if you can call it that) reference of "growed", Dan, yes?

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST, Dan
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:58 PM

Nope.

(Unless it was Sardus in "And the Ass Saw the Angel.") (And you guys shouldn't be funnin yourselves on my lack of education.)

And I can't get it out of my head that my question/desire of what it's like to sense the unmanifest is perfectly analogous, as Carol might put it, to a deep sea invertebrate wanting to feel wet.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:43 PM

There is no reason you cannot, Dan. There are various schools of meditation and spiritual therapeutics of one or another sort which lead you in that direction, but with such things your mileage as always may vary.

There is no inherent reason why having a body should preclude ALSO having cosmic-scale spiritual experiences, but it seems to frequently do so, anyway. My belief is that for many people having a body involves adopting a lot of automaticities and abandoning a lot of creative responsibilities, and that's a slippery slope to walk back up; but there is no path other than walking back up in regardless of what techniques you use. The common denominators of all such paths that seem workable are re-assuming responsibility aned creative power over the apparencies of being that one has taken on as "the way it is", rather than letting them continue as external-determinants. One interesting recent book in this direction is called The Toltec Way although I have no reason to assume it is actually a Toltec legacy; but it is a nice name for the book, which discusses many aspects of this philosophical/spiritual approach.

'Course this could open the way for all kinds of supercilious corrective noises, but I guess I'll take the risk, and if worse comes to worse I will convert to petaphysics. That's a nice safe religion because the critics and pedants tend to stay out of range. :>)

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:47 PM

Book Two of How High The Left (joke, sorry) can be found over here for faster loading. Please post there instead of to this thread which is too long already.

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:49 PM

No, no, Dan, I wasn't funnin'! It simply occurred to me after I posted that you might not know that I was borrowing a phrase from "Uncle Tom's Cabin" by Harriet Beecher Stowe.

Here's the reference, a bit of the initial interview between Topsy, the young slave girl, and the mistress to whom she's just been delivered:

  "Have you ever heard anything about God, Topsy?"

  The child looked bewildered, but grinned as usual.

  "Do you know who made you?"

  "Nobody, as I knows on," said the child, with a short laugh.

  The idea appeared to amuse her considerably; for her eyes twinkled, and she added,

  "I spect I grow'd. Don't think nobody never made me."


...so there you have it. This is also the origin of the phrase "growed like Topsy." Again, please rest assured that I was not making fun of you, Dan.

Sharon

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:52 PM

Oops! Sorry, Amos, I missed seeing your post with the link to Part 2 of this thread.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:21 PM

Well, I must say I was expecting a broadside. Should have known that such an intelligent group would agree with me! LOL Amos, I thought a "pitard" was a dagger?

---

Please go to Where Is God, Book 2 (click)