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BS: Euphemisms and asterisks
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Subject: Euphemisms and asterisks From: GUEST,little john cameron Date: 14 Dec 01 - 11:46 AM A wee while ago ah wis oan anither site complainin aboot the moderation policy o' the site. Ah thocht ah wid be clever an' see whit a could get awa' wi' Nae luck!! Ah wis deleted. Ah wrote it in standard english so they widnae know it wis me.Ah'm ANGUS OG in the post.
Posted by ANGUS OG on December 12, 2001 at 15:05:46 Subject: euphemisms and asterisks OK, regarding the use of expletives and colourful language.I find it peculiar that various methods of clandestine use of the language is acceptable. For instance,if letters are omitted and replaced by asterisks then it would seem that the meaning of the offending "vulgarism" is thereby tolerated. As an example,the sentence"The f****ing A**H***e gave the poor woman a kick in the c**t". Now, from what I have observed in the past,this would probably be tolerated.Perhaps the powers that be think the readers lack the intelligence to de-cypher this nonsense? Euphemisms are another example of this,such as Pierre Trudeau using "fuddle-duddle". Also the use of non-english words in place of offending words.That would make the post more interesting to the Moderator,as he/she would have to have a library of dictionaries to catch the culprits.As if he/she did not have enough to do reading this inane drivel! Queen Victoria must be laughing, as her era seems to have returned,if it was ever gone! ANGUS |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Joe Offer Date: 14 Dec 01 - 12:28 PM Well, John, traditional profanity is welcome here, and always will be. However, there are some forces here who have made a lot of noise about speech they consider politically incorrect. This thread (click) really bugged me. Heck, you gotta be careful if you say "M**** C*****mas" to some people around here. Grumble, grumble. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Dec 01 - 12:40 PM Yeah, Joe, recast what that argument was about AND renew it. Good call. *G* ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Joe Offer Date: 14 Dec 01 - 12:44 PM F*** O***, W*******. J** O**** (excuse me for having an opinion) |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: GUEST,little john cameron Date: 14 Dec 01 - 12:58 PM HA HA, ah even wrote ane as an anagram.It lasted a bit longer,tho' the rubberooter struck again. Vertically handicapped jc. |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Jeri Date: 14 Dec 01 - 01:03 PM Little John, has it ever occurred to you that you might be MORE comprhensible with asterisks" Kn*w wh*t I mean? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: GUEST,little john cameron Date: 14 Dec 01 - 01:17 PM Probably mair reprehensible!! ljc |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Gary T Date: 14 Dec 01 - 01:32 PM Okay, traditional profanity is welcome here--but what the hell is untraditional profanity? |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Dec 01 - 01:37 PM Whatever used to be the vulgar word for F**K before the Norman invasion, since that was the polite term for the Saxons? |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Dec 01 - 01:43 PM What's with the *** to begin with? Like said, is anyone so stupid they think f**k could be something else....and if so, what? I too would like to discuss what "non-traditional profanity" is......Never heard the term before. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Dec 01 - 01:50 PM I have seen "creative" profanity. Untraditional? Profanity probably goes back to Adam, so I guess all profanity is traditional. Joe, that thread also bothers me. The song that started it all off was an "African-American" song; we don't use that word but it is still common among African-Americans at the bottom of the heap. I hope that in a generation or two people will be more mature and will accept the past, but I doubt it. Are such words profanity, or should they be known by another name? |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: artbrooks Date: 14 Dec 01 - 01:50 PM Huuum.."thy cranial appendage is firmly emplaced within thy rectal oriface" would be pretty nontraditional...just an example, of course, not a comment about any specific Mudcatter. |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: GUEST,little john cameron Date: 14 Dec 01 - 01:55 PM "African Americans"?? Ah thocht the politically correct term noo-a-days wis "Black Americans" ljc |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: dick greenhaus Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:00 PM re Non Trad vulgarity---and censorship. The late Fred Allen once had a radio show which featured skits, and one of them was a New England bit (Maine or New Hampsha) in which a crusty old character told another, "Go feg your dill." The radio station refused to permit this. Allen protested, saying that the phrase was completely made up and meaningless, but the station maintained that it "sounded" dirty. Finally the script was revised, and the line changed to "Go dill your feg". This, apparantly met the standards for decency, and was allowed to be aired. You figure. |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: GUEST,little john cameron Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:06 PM Aye it is a strange world D**k.Here's whit a came up wi'. http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_268b.html |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Jeri Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:45 PM Well, Spaw, I like f**k music. Not the Barry White kind, but then I'd guess, to know what type I mean, you'd have to be able to tell what I meant by the *s. And then we'd have to define it. I think non-traditional is to traditional vulgarity as singer/songwriters are to Child ballads. Basically nobody knows what the h*ll they're talkin' about except them. You have to explain things to people, and when they understand what you mean, they ask "so why did you bother?" I'm thinking science fiction TV shows and movies. I watch "Farscape," and they've got a whole bunch of non-traditions vulgarities. "Frell" means whatever any unknown, one-syllable word starting with F usually means on TV. There's something that sounds like "menugnucks" that means male reproductive organs of the sort that normally come in pairs, otherwise known as b*lls. There was another show on (can't remember the name, but it had Lorne Greene and Ritchard Hatch as Capt Apollo, who was a hunk, but I'm rambling) that used the word "felgercarp" to mean fecal material, otherwise known as sh*t. I honestly don't know what good it does to change the word if everybody knows what you mean. (Of course, the made-up words are funny, and the reason they're funny is because they had to be made up in the first place.) Frelling B - what a load of felgercarp! |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Bert Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:49 PM Oh Smeg! |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 14 Dec 01 - 05:47 PM Someone above (I'm too lazy to go back and find out who) mused on the fact that an asterisked "dirty word" is often tolerated even though the meaning is perfectly clear. Seems to me that this is because the writer is in effect admitting guilt and apologizing by using the asterisks. A triumph of form over function! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Joe Offer Date: 14 Dec 01 - 05:58 PM Traditional vulgarity is the kind that offends conservative ideologues. Non-traditional vulgarity offends liberal ideologues. Both sides of the political spectrum have busybodies who feel a compulsion to attempt to control how others speak. Is there something we can say that will piss both of them off? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Dec 01 - 06:16 PM Myself, there are a few words I wouldn't use any time, and I wouldn't use them with asterisks either.
And there are other words and expressions I'd use in some company and so e settings and not in other company and other settings. I think that kind of thing is just part of the give and take and complexity of social interaction. I think people are entitled to that kind of social mechanism, as a way of defining relationships and so forth.
If we didn't have any taboo words, we'd have a poorer language, and we'd have to invent new ones. In the context of folk song, we'd be poorer if we didn't have in our repertoire the possibility of the rhyme that they think is going to break a taboo, and then doesn't by a hairs breadth - or the line that suddenly unexpectedly does break a taboo. Word play.
And think of all the great words that have been invented in this context - "Gor Blimey" may be a way of avoiding saying "God Blind Me", but it's a much more useful words. "For crying out loud" is in many ways a more expressive thing to say than "For Christ's sake." |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Dec 01 - 06:22 PM Separate point, so a separate post. I've asked this begore I think, but noone has ever answered that I've seen.
Was the American use of the word "ass" and "asshole" to replace the older form "arse" and "arsehole" introduced deliberately as a euphemism or is it just one of those variant spellings like labor and theater?
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Sorcha Date: 14 Dec 01 - 06:22 PM Joe, how about "F**K OFF, A**HOLE"..........sooo, f*lk singers should only use traditional profanities/vulgarities? (I love this thread!)
Another board I used to post to had an automatic censor--wouldn't post the the words cockatiel, Jesus, Christmas,prick (as in prick your finger), etc. Silly thing just used ***'s, as in ****atiel--CensorMagic could be gotten around by putting a space between each letter, as in c o c k atiel..........I finally gave up. Don't post there any more, I just couldn't be bothered.
We (the "band") are giving a presentation to the local Historical Society tomorrow. Usually, we just play the tunes, no intro, no background, etc, but I thought since it was the Historical Society it might be cool to tell them some background of the tunes............
You wouldn't believe how many of them are non-PC today, not just "Run Nigger Run". "Colored Aristocracy" actually used to be called "Uppity Nigger". Then there are: |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Bill D Date: 14 Dec 01 - 06:27 PM "Tell me a word you've often heard, But it makes you squint if you see it in print" --(I forget who said it) also..as they said in THe Realist many years ago:
F**K Censorship |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Geoff the Duck Date: 14 Dec 01 - 06:27 PM When Lorne Green was the boss in Bonanza, he would have horsewhipped Hoss or Little Joe if they had profaned although he did let slip when some BUGGER set fire to the map of the Ponderosa when he was reading it!!!!!! Try B*ttle*st*r Ga*actic* Jeri! |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Joe Offer Date: 14 Dec 01 - 06:31 PM I do volunteer work at a women's center that is staffed by four nuns. I really do hate prudishness, but I have to admit that I was a little taken aback when 75-yr-old Sister Mercedes said, "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!" in a moment of frustration today. Sister Mercedes keeps telling me how holy she was when she was young, and I keep teasing her about what a "pistol" she is now. She has quite a reputation for her driving - that's when her companions are likely to say, "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!" as they grip the dashboard. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Sorcha Date: 14 Dec 01 - 06:43 PM "Gabriel, Michael, Raphael and all the ArchAngels...." Joe, I believe "Jesus, Mary and Joseph" is a "traditional" Irish alternative for actual cuss words......(grin) |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Dec 01 - 07:08 PM "Jesus, Mary and Joseph" counts as a prayer. A cry for help in moments of exasperation. Very handy. |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Joe Offer Date: 14 Dec 01 - 07:16 PM Well, I suppose it could count as a prayer, but Sister was in a cussin' mood today. She's trying to make up for all those years she was holy, and she sure can be funny. [grin] -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Dec 01 - 07:44 PM A. When people choose to communicate sensitively it does not necessarily mean that they have any desire whatsoever to control how others speak, or even that they disapprove of how others speak, or of the people themselves. It also does not necessarily mean that they are afraid of being un-PC. It can simply mean that their life experience is such that they choose to speak as they choose to speak. B. Asterisks are usually used here NOT so that people will think they are speaking nicely. They are used so that the word intended in all the richness of its vulgar glory will pass an anti-profanity program that keeps otehrwise some members' workplace computers from accessing Mudcat. C. A preoccupation with others' attempts to be controlling often masks an equal effort to control. I found the outcry against my choice of speech, in a thread titled to cover a number of variant song titles, cast in terms of complaints about control, very amusing.... You see, in this case-- it was me who was being pressured, actually! *G* ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Dec 01 - 07:49 PM PS-- there is a word I just learned for new terms grafted onto old experiences, or used to recast old events in newer paradigms of thought-- a RETRONYM. An example would be that "computer" used to mean what later became called a mainframe, so "mainframe" was the retronym. Later, "computer" came to mean a DOS-IBM clone, but the retronym for that became "PC," which actually means a "WINDOWS-compatible" computer vs. a "Mac..." So that makes me, what, as A**HOLE? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Dec 01 - 07:56 PM Completely f*cked? Sp*w |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Dec 01 - 08:07 PM McGrath, I tried to trace "ass" but not much came up. Webster's Collegiate puts it first and arse second, but fails to put a reference date on ass. The OED quotes Dos Passos 1930, but that doesn't help. It is mentioned in a couple of slang dictionaries that I have, but no useful data. I wonder if it developed through the old phrases, to "make an ass of one's self," or "to be an ass." Both of these are 16C or older (OED). Ass as euphemism is possible, as you suggest, but no evidence. Labor-labour. I was taught that the spelling labour, etc. became standardized in England only after the American colonies split off. I am not enough of a language historian to say whether this is correct or not. |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Jeri Date: 14 Dec 01 - 09:31 PM Joe said: "Is there something we can say that will piss both of them off?" Well, Joe, I have a few idea's.
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: little john cameron Date: 14 Dec 01 - 09:38 PM Main Entry: arse variant ofASS
Main Entry: 2ass Pronunciation: 'as Function: noun Etymology: Middle English ars, ers, from Old English [ae]rs, ears; akin to Old High German & Old Norse ars buttocks, Greek orrhos buttocks, oura tail Date: before 12th century Variant(s): or arse /'as, '@rs/ 1 a often vulgar : BUTTOCKS -- often used in emphatic reference to a specific person b often vulgar : ANUS 2 usually vulgar : SEXUAL INTERCOURSE |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 15 Dec 01 - 12:34 PM McGrath of Harlow: I've heard (and verily believe) that "arse" was so commonly pronounced in English speech with a suppressed "r"--as "ahss"--that a common vowel change in US speech went from the "ah" to a flat "a", resulting in "ass". Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Euphemisms and asterisks From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Dec 01 - 02:12 PM "make an ass of one's self," or "to be an ass" to me at any rate clearly mean to resemble a donkey. As in Midsummer Night's Dream. "I see their knavery: this is to make an ass of me...I have had a dream, past the wit of man to say what dream it was: man is but an ass, if he go about to expound this dream."
I suppose it could be that Webster, or whoever, adjusted the spelling to match the way Americans pronounced the word. I'd think it more likely that there was an element of euphemism in it.
In many parts of England, especially the North where the short a is more prevalant, the way people pronounce "ass" and "arse" is completely different. Even in the South I've noticed that people often tend to use the short a when referring to donkeys - maybe to avoid confusion. I take it that in America people will normally use the same pronunciation whichever sense of the word is intended? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:18 PM I think this is about what the Puritans used to refer to as "perfumed curses." They considered them just as bad as the unfragrant kind. Yes, it is a bit idiotic to believe that something like "s**t" is going to fool anybody. Granny could think it was 'soot,' I guess. I mean, "Gosh and gollies, why not?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Bill D Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:53 PM "..... in America people will normally use the same pronunciation whichever sense of the word is intended? " yes, usually. Most Americans seldom refer to the donkey as an ass. 97% of the time you hear the word it is being used to insult a person or refer to a 'backside', so the short 'a' sound is almost universal. I would go so far as to say that many Americans would even feel self-conscious saying 'arse', as it feels like an affectation and sounds silly. *shrug*...same with 'knickers' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:59 PM Seasonal note - it'd normally be "ox and ass" if you were talking about the Nativity, wouldn't it, even in America? (Unless you've been trapped into singing "Little Donkey" maybe...).
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Bert Date: 16 Dec 01 - 12:10 AM Bill, While the pronunciation of ass universally has a short a, as in mass. Even here in the good old USA the longer word is usually pronounced ahs-hole. I've never heard asshole pronounced with a short a. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Dec 01 - 12:41 AM I have, Bert. Where I have lived in Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Illinois and now Alberta. AH is considered eastern by westerners. Bill D is right, we have donkeys and burros but I have never seen an (OH, my,); i. e. ass is seldom used for the four-footed animal in North America. DaveO, your supposition seems logical to me. My wife (from Georgia where R seldom is pronounced) noticed the supression of R in Kent during a visit there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:13 AM Gee Bert, did I neglect to call you an asshole when you were here? Short A all the way here in Ohio. Bill, once again a valid point. I just can't seem to say arse....and as I think about it, it's probably for the reason you state. Very astute.....or would that be asstute? No, that'd be a fart...... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:31 AM Right, Catspaw. "Arse" always gets you a funny look or a titter from anyone listening. Knickers were something boys (and, I think, golfers) used to wear in the dim, dead days beyond recall. I think we assumed wimmen wore bloomers or some such. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 16 Dec 01 - 11:37 AM In the fifties a couple I knew comprised an English exchange student and his wife, from Minnesota. They (primarily he) were pretty far left, even for Minnesota. At parties he (they) often led the singing of "Arson, Rape and Bloody Murder", with great gusto. At one party she sheepishly confessed that they had been married for almost a year before she realized the words he was singing were NOT "Arse and Rape and Bloody Murder"! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Bill D Date: 16 Dec 01 - 11:57 AM ummm...Bert..'ahs'??...where HAVE you lived?..I have heard 'ass' with short 'a' forever!..sometimes even a southern 'ay-us'...but perhaps your ear 'expects' the 'ah' sound..*shrug*.... What a project for a man-on-the-street interview!..."Pardon me sir/m'am, would you pronounce the word on this card for me?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Dec 01 - 12:39 PM "Kick ass" sounds brutal to the poor creatures. And it just sounds a funny way of saying it, like you've been watching too many American movies.
A shared language, but not a common one really. It'd be a drag if it was.
Getting back to the asterisks, it's the difference between a*s and a*se - or would it be a**e.
I like the idea of making innocuous words look naughty by substituting asterisks. "F**k singers are all s**ts" he said, remarking on the diversity of these a******s. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Dec 01 - 12:58 PM "Kick ass" is one of those infantile remarks coined by kids (childen, that is)and picked up by equally infantile advertising perpetrators. I hope it will soon go away. M***y X**s and a H***y N*w Y**r! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:06 PM Hey man, like Dicho, that was a really kick-ass post ya' know? Ya' jus' wanna' bitch-slap 'em doncha'? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Bill D Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:19 PM Mary had a little plane, And in it she would frisk. But when she flew it upside down, Her little * |
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Subject: RE: BS: Euphemisms and asterisks From: Bill D Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:21 PM which makes me wonder..How do Brits pronounce *? arseterisk?...ahsterisk? |