 sj |
||
|
||
Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up
|
|
|
|||||||
|
Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up |
Share Thread
|
||||||
|
Subject: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: Mark Clark Date: 15 Dec 01 - 01:19 AM I know it's common for musicians to have a strong mathematical aptitude (or musicians to have a strong mathematical aptitude) and many of those folks have developed strong computer science skills as well. In fact several folks like that are known to frequent these threads. One of the things that gets discussed here quite a lot is the various digital representations of music, which platforms and programs can use them plus tools and techniques for translating between the various representations (i.e., ABC, MIDI, MIDI-Text, Finale, WAV, MP3, NoteWorthy Composer, Harmony, etc.) Each representation has strengths and weaknesses but no representation is suitable for all purposes... until now. I was sitting here thinking of ways to represent music and thinking that an extinsible markup language (XML) document type description (DTD) or XML Schema could be developed that would support a universal representation that could easily be incorporated into any tool and support any need. Well it didn't take me long to realize that if I was thinking in those terms, other people were having those thoughts too and were probably way ahead of me. A quick turn on my trusty WebFerret and viola [sic], sure enough there are several projects under way. The first one I looked at is the Music Description Language (MDL) DTD proposed by Perry Roland at the University of Virginia. I had a feeling I'd seen that name before and I was right, Perry is also the developer behind The Online Guitar Chord Dictionary. The next one I found was MusiXML, an effort that seems farther along and has the advantage of being based on the more powerful XML Schema rather than the flawed DTD model. The information on their Web page was somewhat out of date with respect to the specification for XML Schema so I followed their news link and discovered that the project is still quite active. My interest in Finale led me to the Recordare site with lots of information and links relating to MusiXML. The MusiXML site also points to several other interesting resources including The GUIDO NoteServer capable of performing on-line conversions for several formats. There is also a link to Muscript 2.0 developed by Peter Billam of Hobart, TAS. A good XML representation for music means that a set of tools can be assembled that permit including a score directly in Mudcat pages and posts without resorting to graphics. The major browsers already understand XML and Java plugins can be developed—may already exist—to let us post, view, listen and share tunes and harmonies on any computing platform hosting an XML-compliant browser and the Java virtual machine. I know this post will seem arcane to most readers but for the members who understand and see the potential... Whadduyal think? - Mark |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: Amos Date: 15 Dec 01 - 01:27 AM Only question is how old the server SW is, isn't it? Or conversely which tools are needed to do the conversions -- and from what? How many formats are there out there the tools would have to parse to produce a wide range of compatability, say, with 80% of the present installed SW? I think it's a great concept!! If it's standard XML, you're covered from random impulses causing obsolescence or veering into incompatability because its a more robust standard. If you did it right and fast (or got the right techs to do it) you'd be able to lock in the existing music and MIDI tool manufacturers to use your parser/compiler to bridge from their tools. So there could even be some money in it maybe. A.
|
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: katlaughing Date: 15 Dec 01 - 01:53 AM I imagine, in a more simple way, this was what poeple went trhough with all of the different phonograph companies and their records with different sized holes, so one could only play them on that company's players. Interesting, Mark, thanks. I fixed your "em," hope I got it right. kat |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: Mark Clark Date: 15 Dec 01 - 09:12 PM Kat, Thanks very much for the assist. You're right about what people always go through before things get standardized. It was that way with electricity, telephones, televisions, video tape, for all I know they probably had the same problem with chariots. Western music notation and concert pitch (A = 440 Hz) are really rather recent innovations in the history of music. With a standard and robust data representation for music as well, we can ensure that the most music is available to the most people regardless of the technology they use. - Mark |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: hesperis Date: 15 Dec 01 - 09:31 PM Woohoo! Music geek stuff! I've only recently been getting into more advanced html stuff, but this sounds great. To be able to embed not just the sound but the *notation* in a web document - now that's cool! |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: DMcG Date: 16 Dec 01 - 07:59 AM Wet blanket time, folks! Wonderful idea, loads of potential, agreed. But I think you may need to read some of the other threads in here about music notation software to remind yourself just what sort of hurdles we are talking about here. There are plenty of software products that can already easily distribute notation and sound at a nominal cost - such as Melody assistant that costs about $15 to buy and then can display notation you have prepared on a web site at no extra cost. Or Finale Notepad, that can do it for free, providing your music is limited enough. Virtually any music software can be persuaded to produce a GIF or similar issue, or you could install a PDF creator and print to it then attach PDF files alongside the MIDI. There is not really much benefit in producing a new standard if the near-free alternatives are not being used. More importantly, notation doesn't actually represent the sound. Variations between verses, for example, or personal embellishments get removed most of the time, otherwise the notation becomes too unwieldy. There are pragmatic problems of notation that simply do not arise with audio, such as the US and UK using different paper sizes which in its turn alters the best way to lay the melody out in terms or bars, repeats and breaks, to make it as playable as possible. In computer terms, you have an extreme form of what Jackson Programming Methodolgy called 'a structure clash' You may also want to do some backgound research on NIFF, which was an "agreed" notation-interchange standard before you get too far down the road on such a project. After all those caveats and depressing sentiments, go do it! If it can be achieved, everyone will be enternally grateful - especially me! I have, at the last count, 6 incompatible music notation programs installed on my PC. |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: Justa Picker Date: 16 Dec 01 - 10:29 AM Well I must be one of the exceptions or else "mathematics" works on a subconscious level with me. I've been involved with music/theory since childhood, and computers since the mid 80s. Beyond basic addition, multiplication, subtraction and division, I never "got" algebra, geometry, calculusm, etc. I dropped it in grade 9, and replaced it with languages. |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: M.Ted Date: 17 Dec 01 - 02:06 AM It is worth reflecting on that music and musical representations are not only the basis of computing and computer language, the oldest (by far) language driven machines were musical devices the music box is nothing but a cylinder with binary code, moving from cylinders to cards, to disks, and to piano rolls, and finally to virtual piano rolls-- except for the fact that the medium has evolved since the binary code was developed in about the 15th century, that we can now edit the "piano roll", and the capacity for information has expanded incredibly, MIDI systems do what those old, mechanical, music boxes do, and they do it the same way-- |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: Mark Clark Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:09 AM Justa, I suspect you were the victim of poor math teachers rather than being mathematically challenged. I suspect that relatively few people teaching mathematics in primary and secondary schools really have any advanced understanding of what they are teaching. - Mark |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: pavane Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:33 AM As a developer of Music software, I have recently been updating my program HARMONY and would be interested in this type of project. You can try it out by downloading from www.greenhedges.com I have been looking for a better and more general 'internal' representation of tunes than the one my program currently uses, and have been considering the use of XML, at least as output. My program was primarily intended for sound, specifically the adding of chords to a tune, and the scoring facilities grafted on later are not really adequate for more than simple tunes.
|
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: Mark Clark Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:52 AM pavane, Check out my post in the “Help: Music publishing software suggestions” thread. There is new information on MusicXML and its adoption as an interchange standard for music representation. - Mark |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: pavane Date: 13 Jun 02 - 03:13 AM Thanks. Most software packages seem to include just convert/edit/print/play facilities (although I must admit I haven't tried many) My own interest is in functions which transform or 'add value' to the tune. Examples currently available are adding chords, adding 3rds/5ths/etc, converting a melody to a round, and converting a reel to a hornpipe. Also, for fun, reversing a tune, and generating 'random' tunes in folk styles. I have not found other software with similar facilities, but a common interchange format would be useful. So far, I have been using abc and also an old text notation from the ACCU music system (Old DOS program), but both are far from perfect for the job. MIDI also has its uses but lacks any notation facility.
|
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: GUEST Date: 26 Oct 02 - 10:17 AM I don't know if Mark Clark is on the abcusers list so: Hello, Jon |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: John in Brisbane Date: 27 Oct 02 - 06:36 AM Well done Jon, you beat me to it. Regards, John PS - Pity there's no lyrics support just yet. |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 27 Oct 02 - 07:29 AM Thread drift...we math/music geeks are allowed to do that, right? I always loved the early (1980's) discussions of using computers to teach math. I also vaguely remember something about using computers to actually write/compose music. Anybody else heard about this? I'm trying to remember exactly what I read...I seem to remember that the initial forays into this field were fascinating. |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: DMcG Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:06 AM Lyric support seems to be one of the challenges to me. From a note perspective you usually need the words split as syllables which in XML terms requires them to be quite deep in the tree structure whereas from the pure lyrics perspective you need them as complete words which requires them to be much nearer the root of the XML tree. I will be interested to see how this is done without duplicating all the words. |
|
Subject: RE: Music + Computer Geeks... Listen Up From: Mark Clark Date: 27 Oct 02 - 11:43 PM Jon, Thanks for posting that notice. I'll check it out. A good XML representation, widely adopted, means we could soon be seeing browser plugins that can display the score for any coded representation such as ABC. That will go a long way towards helping musicians share lead sheets and scores. Of course an acceptable XML standard has to be a superset of all other encoding schemes. I agree with John that lyrics support is an important feature and DMcG has identified a key problem with lyrics. If one is looking at a score or lead sheet, it's useful to have the lyrics included in the score in such a way that each syllable is associated with the correct note or beat and the duration of held syllables is indicated. In all the lyrics entery schemes I'm aware of, this generally means that the lyrics must be broken down into syllables with (perhaps several) dashes in between them to act as dummy syllables when lining the lyrics up with the notes. Including lyrics in a displayed or printed score also requires that the note spacing must by dynamically adjusted to accomodate the lyrics. Within XML it would be possible to “tag” particular characters or syllables in such a way as to provide for correct score alignment without requiring the tags to be visible when the lyrics are displayed by themselves in poetic verse form. The tags would be generated using a graphical interface in which the user just “dragged” a connector between a character or syllable to a note head in a score and the tag would be generated in the lyrics to tie them to the score. There may be better ways, this is just off the top of my head. Mary, I have some recorded examples of music that was composed by a computer program and then played by an orchestra. I also have examples of music that was both composed and generated (played) by a computer. All of the examples painfully demonstrate the inability of human researchers to express, mathematically, what makes music enjoyable to the human ear. - Mark |
| Share Thread: |