Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Australian/American songs: similarities

Helen 03 Mar 98 - 12:27 AM
Helen 03 Mar 98 - 07:54 PM
Bruce O 03 Mar 98 - 07:57 PM
Helen 03 Mar 98 - 08:01 PM
Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca 03 Mar 98 - 08:28 PM
Bill D 03 Mar 98 - 08:49 PM
Bill D 03 Mar 98 - 08:57 PM
murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 04 Mar 98 - 01:45 AM
Barry Finn 04 Mar 98 - 08:29 PM
Will 04 Mar 98 - 08:40 PM
murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 04 Mar 98 - 08:55 PM
Will 04 Mar 98 - 09:07 PM
Helen 07 Mar 98 - 06:47 PM
dick greenhaus 07 Mar 98 - 06:54 PM
Helen 07 Mar 98 - 07:29 PM
Bill D 07 Mar 98 - 07:32 PM
Bob Bolton 28 Oct 00 - 11:30 PM
Stewie 29 Oct 00 - 04:05 AM
Bob Bolton 29 Oct 00 - 05:43 AM
Bob Bolton 29 Oct 00 - 06:02 AM
Bob Bolton 29 Oct 00 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,Liam's Brother 29 Oct 00 - 07:40 PM
Bob Bolton 29 Oct 00 - 09:28 PM
sian, west wales 30 Oct 00 - 04:49 AM
Callie 30 Oct 00 - 05:12 PM
Bob Bolton 30 Oct 00 - 08:38 PM
sian, west wales 31 Oct 00 - 05:04 AM
Bob Bolton 31 Oct 00 - 06:36 AM
sian, west wales 31 Oct 00 - 07:08 AM
Bob Bolton 31 Oct 00 - 09:35 PM
Percustard 16 Jun 02 - 11:34 PM
rich-joy 17 Jun 02 - 01:48 AM
greg stephens 17 Jun 02 - 03:06 AM
Hrothgar 17 Jun 02 - 06:02 AM
Bob Bolton 17 Jun 02 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,Bruce, Melbourne Australia 17 Jun 02 - 10:12 AM
songsearch 17 Jun 02 - 06:27 PM
Bob Bolton 18 Jun 02 - 07:45 AM
Percustard 19 Jun 02 - 01:27 AM
Percustard 19 Jun 02 - 01:32 AM
Percustard 19 Jun 02 - 01:36 AM
Hrothgar 19 Jun 02 - 05:02 AM
rich-joy 19 Jun 02 - 08:31 AM
Stewie 19 Jun 02 - 09:34 PM
Hrothgar 20 Jun 02 - 07:10 AM
The Walrus at work 20 Jun 02 - 08:22 AM
Bob Bolton 20 Jun 02 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,Bruce, Melbourne Australia 20 Jun 02 - 11:13 AM
Stewie 20 Jun 02 - 09:23 PM
Bob Bolton 21 Jun 02 - 08:12 AM
Art Thieme 23 Jun 02 - 04:36 PM
Percustard 23 Jun 02 - 07:32 PM
GUEST 22 Jan 11 - 02:15 AM
Joybell 22 Jan 11 - 07:19 PM
Sandra in Sydney 22 Jan 11 - 11:04 PM
The Sandman 23 Jan 11 - 01:47 PM
Bob Bolton 23 Jan 11 - 05:34 PM
Bob Bolton 24 Jan 11 - 09:53 PM
freda underhill 25 Jan 11 - 04:54 AM
Bob Bolton 27 Jan 11 - 08:32 PM
Joybell 29 Jan 11 - 06:01 PM
Midchuck 06 Sep 11 - 07:59 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Helen
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 12:27 AM

Sorry guys - I hit a wrong key and the full thread title didn't go in on my other thread which is showing up as "Australian/"

You can read the full posting on the other thread but for simplicity's sake I will cut and paste it into this thread title.

Helen

Subject: Australian/American songs: similarities From: Helen Date: 03-Mar-98 - 12:22 AM

Hi all,

I have been thinking about this for a while. There are a lot of songs in the Australian tradition which are also in the traditional repertoires of muusicians and performers from the North American continent. The first one which comes to mind is know as Brisbane Ladies or Augathella Station, and here are the songs which show up in the DT database when you type in "[rant and we'll roar]".

1) BRISBANE LADIES (Queensland Drovers) (Farewell and Adieu)

Farewell and adieu to you, Brisbane ladies Farewell and adieu, you maids of Toowong We've sold all our cattle and we have to get a movin'

2) SPANISH LADIES

Farewell and adieu to you, Spanish ladies, Farewell and adieu to you, ladies of Spain; cho: We'll rant and we'll roar like true British sailors,

3) WE'LL RANT AND WE'LL ROAR

We'll rant and we'll roar like true Newfoundlanders, We'Il rant and we'll roar on deck and below When straight through the Channel to Toslow we'll go.

4) YANKEE WHALERMEN

We'll rant and we'll roar like true Yankee Whalermen We'll rant and we'll roar on deck and below And straight up the channel to New Bedford we'll go.

Another one I know of is on the Civil War soundtrack CD called Marching Through Georgia, and it has the same tune as an Australian song with a chorus about the golden gullies of the Palmer [River], and it is about the goldrush days.

What other songs and tunes have taken a different path depending on the continent they have found themselves on?

Helen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: IN THE GOLDEN GULLIES OF THE PALMER^^
From: Helen
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 07:54 PM

Here are the lyrics of the Golden Gullies of the Palmer, taken from Warren Fahey's song book called Eureka: The Songs That Made Australia. A note says that the tune was taken from Marching Through Georgia, so the American tune precedes its use for this Australian song.

Helen

In the Golden Gullies of the Palmer

Then roll the swag and blanket up, and let us haste away,
To the Golden Palmer, boys, where everyone they say,
Can get his ounce of gold, or it may be more, a day
In the Golden Gullies of the Palmer

Chorus:
Hurrah, hurrah, we'll sound the jubilee,
Hurrah, hurrah, and we will merry be,
When we reach the diggings boys, and there the nuggets see,
In the Golden Gullies of the Palmer

Kick at troubles when they come boys, the motto be for all,
And if you've missed the ladder in climbing Fortune's wall,
Depend upon it boys, you'll recover from the fall,
In the Golden Gullies of the Palmer

Then sound the chorus once again and give it with a roar,
And let its echoes ring boys, upon the sea and shore,
Until it reaches the mountains, where gold is in galore,
In the Golden Gullies of the Palmer


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bruce O
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 07:57 PM

Subject: RE: Australian/ From: Bruce O. Date: 03-Mar-98 - 09:26 AM

I have a bit of biography of one of my ancestors that was in Sherman's army on the 'march through Georgia', and his favourite song later was Henry Clay Work's "Marching through Georgia".

(Bruce, I have copied your posting into the thread where the full title is - hope you don't mind. I hit the wrong key and the title didn't work on the other one. Helen)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Helen
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 08:01 PM

I don't know which computer gremlins I have upset, but they are jinxing me on this thread. I have tried to post this a few times over the last 10 days and everything has been going wrong. Now I have posted the lyrics to The Golden Gullies of the Palmer and it has repeated some of the lyrics on me. I give up - I surrender, come on gremlins, take my computer away and then I'll get some peace. :-< On second thoughts, can I really survive without my computer and access to Mudcat - I guess not.

Helen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 08:28 PM

Well, as you saw on the other thread, there are any number of songs to the tune of The Star of the County Down, although I am beginning to suspect that the tune I associate with that song is different from that to which others are accustomed.

The Unfortunate Rake line of songs, to that tune, is endless it seems, from cowboys in the US west to maidens in eastern Canada.

And then of course, there is Barbara Allen.:) The list is endless.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 08:49 PM

"Sweet Betsy from Pike" and "Darling Nelly Gray" come to mind immediately...Nelly Gray is "The Eumerella Shore"...and "Betsy from Pike" may be the most used melody in folkdom!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 08:57 PM

Oh..yes, of course...I have a fairly long song titled 'Botany Bay', which is to "Betsy from Pike" and which details all the sins, crimes, and anti-social eccentricities for which the 'singer/author' in England would have perpetrators deported to Botany Bay....it is different form all the other Botany Bay songs in the database. I got it at the Library of Congress about 20 years ago...will take the trouble to type it in soon...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 01:45 AM

First let me state the obvious. Both America (US and Canada that is--sorry Mexico:) and Australia got their tunes from English settlers, so it is not surprising that there are similarities.

That is not to the point, because the thread is about specific similarities.

This is not to the point either. I recently heard a song by Slim Dusty called "Can I Sleep in Your Barn Tonight, Mister?". It bears the tune of "Red River Valley." I assumed that he pinched the tune, but perhaps there is an older Australian song that he got if from. Anybody know?

Murray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: VIRGINIA LAGS^^
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 08:29 PM

The "Virginia Lags" has Virginia as the penal colony dumping grounds, pre Botany Bay, for the social rejects of the Brittish Isles. Martin Carthy does a version of this but I don't know if his is the Australian version, which may be of a later date.

Come all you young rebels where er you may be
Come listen awhile & I will tell thee
Concerning the hardships that we undergo
In this damable place called Virginny

Such clever young fellows myself I have seen
Like scarecrows a dragging their chains on the green
Those hard hearted duties so cruel & mean
That lag us poor lads to Virginny

When I was apprentice in fair London town, manys the hours I worked duly & truly
Till buxom young lassies they lead me astray, my work I neglected more every day
And to maintain I went on the highway
By that I got laged to Virginny

Back home in ol England I could live at me ease
Rest me head on a bed of soft feather
With a jug in me hand & a girl on me knee
I thought myself fit for all weather

But here in Virginny I lie like a hog
My pillow at night is a brick or a log
We scratch for our vittals (sp?) like some hungry dog
In this damable place called Virginny

When we came to Virginny that famous ol town, that place which is so much admired
Where the captain he stands with a whip in his hands, & I with a heart full of sorrow did stand
With tears in me eyes in this damn foregin land
And was sold as a slave in Virginny

Old England, ol England I'll ne'r see you more, if I do it's ten thousand to twenty
My bones they are rotten my feet they are sore I'm burned up with fever I live at death's door
But if I should live to see 7 yrs more
Then I'll bid adieu to Virginny

I hope this is as close as I recall it being, it's been quite some time. Barry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Will
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 08:40 PM

Ah, Murray, not to take too much umbrage, but may I lightly point out that Canada, the US, and Australia got many settlers and many songs from elsewhere than England, including other of the not-so-united Kingdoms and far beyond. Your main point is right, of course, that the common backgrounds of settlers contributes to the similarities of the songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 08:55 PM

Will, that does require an apology from me. Not because of the omision, but because I used "England" as a generic name for all the places on the British Isles. Its an old habit that I should get rid of, and I do apologize.

Murray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Will
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 09:07 PM

No sweat and no apologies needed. It's just that I've spent a good part of my life hoping that Canada can find an effective way of being happily multi-cultural. The mixed cultures have produced a wonderful combinations of songs. The McGarrigle's come to mind -- they have a lovely song called "Jacques et Gilles" on their recent Matapedia CD, which covers geography from New Hampshire to Maine to Quebec and shifts from English to French to McGarrigargle in mid-sentence.

And the love of my life is fond of reminding me that Edinburgh, where she was born, is not part of England.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Helen
Date: 07 Mar 98 - 06:47 PM

Tim & Bill D,

I don't know the songs which are based on these tunes that you both mentioned.

Star of the County Down Barbara Allen (I know these songs but not the others with the same tunes) Betsy from Pike - I listened to this on the DT database and it sounds familiar but I can't identify the other song/s using this tune

Can you both enlighten me some more, please?

Helen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Mar 98 - 06:54 PM

There's a trick. To find out all the songs
that share a tune,
, type the tunefile name (you get this from any on of the songs--it's VILDINAH in this case) with an asterisk before it: *VILDINAH in the search box.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Helen
Date: 07 Mar 98 - 07:29 PM

Dick,

Thanks. I didn't know that. I just had a look at that tune and I don't recognise any of the titles as being Australian.

Also, Bill D, I don't know which Botany Bay song you were referring to, either. Any more info? Lyrics, etc?

Helen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: THE EUMARELLA SHORE^^
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 98 - 07:32 PM

I am surprised...I did a search on "Eumarella Shore" and fond only one reference to it on the net...just a mention that it is part of some choir's repetoire. So, here it is ...an Australian 'duffing' song... direct from the USA!

The Eumarella Shore

There's a happy little valley on the Eumarella Shore
Where I've lingered many happy hours away.
In my little free-selection, I have acres by the score
Where I un-yoke my bullocks from the dray.
....To my bullocks then I say,
.... "No matter where you stray
....You will never be impounded any more;
For you're running, running, running, on the duffers piece of land.
Free-selected on the Eumarella Shore.

When the moon has climbed the mountain, and the sun is shining bright,
Then we saddle up our horses and away;
And we yard the squatter's cattle in the darkness of the night;
And we have the calves all branded by the day.
...."Oh, my pretty little calf,
....At the squatter you may laugh.
....For he'll never be your master any more."
For you're running, running, running on the duffers piece of land,
Free-selected on the Eumarella Shore.

If we find a mob of horses when the paddock rails are down;
Although before, they were never known to stray;
Oh, quickly will we drive them to some distant inland town,
And sell them into slavery far away.
....To Jack Robertson, we say,
...."We have got a better lay,
...."And we'll never go a-farming any more!"
For it's easier duffing cattle on the little piece of land,
Free-selected on the Eumarella Shore.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:30 PM

G'day Helen,

I don't know how this thread got "GUESTed" back up, but I just glanced at it before I ave to ead off to John & Dale Dengate's 60th birthdays bash. One quick item before I digest the whole thread is that Sweet Betsy FRom Pike uses the English music hall Villikins and His Dinah tune that is used for Dinky Di! and one version of A Nautical Yarn.

Eumarella Shore that BillD quoted apparently uses an old Methodist hymn tune He is the Lily of the Valley, He's the Bright and Shining Star. I thought this lost in the mists of hymnological time until I mentioned it a my Monday Night Session and Sharyn Mattern sang the whole hymn!

Any, I will look through this in detail - although you may now know far more than when you raised the thread.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Stewie
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 04:05 AM

The 'Slim Dusty song' referred to above in this thread by Murray - 'Can I Sleep in Your Barn' - was an American tramp song of unknown origins. It was collected several times by Robert W. Gordon in North Carolina in 1925. It was recorded in the 1920s by Charlie Poole, Vernon Dalhart, McFarland & Garland and others. Many of the old-time American recordings were released in Australia.

'Another Fall of Rain' uses the 'Little Old Log Cabin in the Lane'/'Little Joe the Wrangler' tune.

--Stewie.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 05:43 AM

G'day Stewie,

Another Fall of Rain seems to also have a Canadian cousin to the same tune and sharing a common structure. I was lstening to an ABC programme of Canadian music and I heard a song start:
Well the weather had been freezing for a fortnight's time or more,
And the wolves were howling out there on the plain.

An obvious relation to our song starting:
Well the weather had been sultry for a fortnight's time or more,
And the shearers had been driving might and main.

There must be many other similarities. A recent thread (about Musselburgh Songs ...) looks at songs with the tune used Lachlan Tigers, The Shearers' Cook, Knickerbocker Line, The Great Northern Line and The Sandy Hollow Line. There is an Americam/Canadian Great Lakes song The Bigler's Cruise that also uses that tune - but relates most closely to Sam Larner's The Dogger Bank.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 06:02 AM

G'day again,

Helen,

This just occurred to me ... We talk about "folksongs", but we need to remeber the effect of American popular music of the day. Henty Clay Work, who wrote Marching Through Georgia, was essentially a popular song writer - widely published and sung.

He also wrote The Ship That Never Returned - a song parodied in at least one Australian song The Hardy Bushman about a timber cutter blowing his cheque at the pub, of course, Ring the Bell Watchman, the model for our national 'potboiler' Click Go The Shears. Many other American writers of popular song are represented by Australian 'parodies' ... songs using established models but adapted to new places and facts.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 06:04 AM

G'day again,

Helen,

This just occurred to me ... We talk about "folksongs", but we need to remeber the effect of American popular music of the day. Henty Clay Work, who wrote Marching Through Georgia, was essentially a popular song writer - widely published and sung.

He also wrote The Ship That Never Returned - a song parodied in at least one Australian song The Hardy Bushman about a timber cutter blowing his cheque at the pub, and of course, Ring the Bell Watchman, the model for our national 'potboiler' Click Go The Shears. Many other American writers of popular song are represented by Australian 'parodies' ... songs using established models but adapted to new places and facts.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 07:40 PM

Some Australian songs entered into tradition in the USA and Canada about a hundred years ago. "Bold Jack Donahue" and "The Wild Colonial Boy" are two that come to mind. Fred Redden in Nova Scotia sang "Moreton Bay."

All the best,
Dan Milner


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 09:28 PM

G'day Dan,

That's a good point. We should remember that the respective Gold Rushes provided a lot of interchange between Australians and Americans. Hargraves, credited with finding gold in Australia (although many had found traces before ... and he only found it through the work of the Toms brothers) had been to California and learned what to look for and how to get it.

Australians had flocked to California and, in turn, many Americans came out to look for gold in Australia. Their songs must have passed both ways. A good example was quoted by Helen - The Golden Gullies of the Palmer, a song of an 1870s rush set to the tune of Marching thro' Georgia.

Then, American professional troupes, such as black-face minstrels, came out and performed the latest American 'hits' on the goldfields. Gold rush towns were hungry for entertainment and Gulgong, one of the earliest gold towns, had (and still has) an Opera House.

Down at the sharp end of history the interplay was also important. When the miners rebelled against oppressive licence fees at Ballarat in 1854, the British Army held off from taking the Eureka Stockade until the American Ambassador assured them that he had persuaded "The American Revolver Brigade" to withdraw their support and weapons.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: sian, west wales
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 04:49 AM

So *Another Fall of Rain" is the same tune as *Little Old Sod Shanty on my Claim*? Which in turn in the hymn tune, *I have found a friend in Jesus*?

sian


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Callie
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 05:12 PM

I know the song as "Numeralla Shore". Are "Eumeralla" and "Numeralla" one and the same place?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 08:38 PM

G'day,

Sian: Is I have found a friend in Jesus the hymn which contains the line:
" \He's the lily of the valley, He's the bright and shining star ..." ? I have seen this refered to (by A.L. Lloyd?) and I presumed it to be far back in the history of hymnody - until I mentioned it at a session and a ady proceeded to sing it right through! I would be interested in tracing it back to its printed sources and dating the first appearance.

Callie: Insofar as folk lore gets anything 'right' or 'wrong' ... yes. There is a place called Numeralla and it is in New South Wales, which is where the song originates. Eumeralla could be any of: a mis-spelling, an old spelling of a badly heard Aboriginal word for the area or a totally different place that doesn't make it onto my map.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: sian, west wales
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 05:04 AM

Bob, yes, that's the one. Quite a standard piece in our family - well, the Canadian side anyway. Cornish / Irish Methodists n.e. of Toronto. Obviously also popular out on the Canadian prairies ... I don't think I have it in any books at home (in Wales) but I'm pretty sure that Mum has it in - is it the Seth Parker Hymnal? An oldie and goodie.

If I come across any historical notes, I'll let you know.

sian


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 06:36 AM

G'day Sian (Sián? ... Siàn?),

Thanks for that information. That is the tune of the Canadian song I mention above with the lines:

Well the weather had been freezing for a fortnight's time or more,
And the wolves were howling out there on the plain.

and the similarities to our Another Fall of Rain suggest that there is a common ancestor palced between them and the original hymn.

It is handy to know the correct name - this will make it easier to find the hymn.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: sian, west wales
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 07:08 AM

Bob

(Sián? ... Siàn?)

Both ... it's supposed to be a circumflex over the "a" but I don't know how to do it on this!

I'll be interested to hear if you find anything more about this!

sian


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 09:35 PM

G'day Siân,

I hold down the 'alt' key and type: 0226 (must be on the number pad). There is a whole second set of alternate letters, particularly accented vowels in the ASCII set and they can be used with various codes. I use this set of 'alt' codes. I can send you and image of the second page for a standard font, if you wish.

It looks a little complex, but believe me - it's a lot easier than typesetting in Vietnamese (which I have done!). They have 126 extra accented vowels - some with 2 or even three accents simultaneously.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Percustard
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 11:34 PM

Anyone know of any Australian/Celtic songs with such similarities?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: rich-joy
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 01:48 AM

I heard a friend at the last National in Canberra do a rather poignant version of "Botany Bay" (i.e. not the usual rollicking tune), where the tune sounded like it was related to "Wrap Me Up In My Oilskins and Jumper (or Stockwhip and Blanket)" - forgot to ask her the source though ...

"The Plains of Emu (An Exile of Erin)" must surely be from an Irish choon!!

And "The Banks of the Condamine" was related to "The Banks of The Nile" ...

And wasn't one of the choons of "Waltzing Matilda" from "Who'll Come A-Soldiering With Marlborough and Me" (or something like that, anyway ...)

Cheers! R-J


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 03:06 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Hrothgar
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 06:02 AM

"The Wallaby Brigade" is to the tune of "Tramp Tramp! Tramp!" - subtitled "The Prisoner's Hope."

There's a song by (American) Ed Clifford called "Billy Barlow" but I can't read music, and I've never heard it sung, so i don't know how it compares to the Australian "Billy Barlow" (by Bnjamin Griffin???). The structure of the words reads as fairly similar.

There is a lovely Autralian song to Foster's "Gentle Annie," using the same title. I think the Australian version comes form somewhere down in Victoria, but I wouldn't hold that against it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 08:44 AM

G'day Rich Joy,

I posted the Australian Exile of Erin some years back ... not by the author of the Irish/American one ... but clearly modelled on it - probably by someone from the south west of Ireland (from the place references).

The furphy about Who'll go a'soldiering ... is dead in the water - the real source is clearly (well documented and accounted by a variety of non-friendly sources!) as described by Paterson & Christina McPherson.

The mythical "Marlborough" song only appears decades after the real Waltzing Matilda ... probably a WW I parody by either Aussies or Poms ... remembered and back-shifted by the children and grandchildren of ANZACs.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: GUEST,Bruce, Melbourne Australia
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 10:12 AM

During the 1800's Australia and Americian had a lot of cross migration, besides sailors and whalers jumping ship.

Before the Califorian Gold Rushes there were a lot of Australian Convicts that had escaped or migrated to the West coast of Americian, then During the Califorian Gold rush many Free Settlers from Australia joined in the rush.

When Australia Gold rush started many from the Califorian gold fields followed the gold and came to Australian Gold fields, then when the gold rush in Australia settled down many moved back to Americia for the Alaskian and Yukon gold rushes and many returned for the Kalgoorlie and Palmer gold rushes

Bruce D


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: songsearch
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 06:27 PM

Spanish Ladies I suppose it is to be expected but all songs go full circle ad infinitum.

We`ll rant and we`ll roar like Palace supporters, We`ll drink pints of lager all during the match. We`ll boldly cry out "The refs. a blind bastard" Then we`ll fight the police and kick, bite and scratch


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 07:45 AM

G'day,

(Oops esprit de l'excalier again)

rich-joy: Was your friends "Botany Bay" the same words ... or was it the older song "Farewell to ye Judges and Juries" ... much more minor and serious ... but clearly ancestral to "Botany Bay", which was written for an 1880 London Music Hall play "Little Jack Shepherd"?

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: BOTANY BAY
From: Percustard
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 01:27 AM

From http://www.crixa.com/muse/songnet/010.html

BOTANY BAY

Farewell to old England forever
Farewell to my rum culls as well
Farewell to the well known Old Bailey
Where I used for to cut such a swell

Singing Tooral liooral liaddity
Singing Tooral liooral liay
Singing Tooral liooral liaddity
And we're bound for Botany Bay

There's the captain as is our commander
There's the bosun and all the ship's crew
There's the first and the second class passengers
Knows what we poor convicts go through

Taint leaving old England we cares about
Taint cos we mis-spells what we knows
But because all we light fingered gentry
Hops around with a log on our toes

These seven long years I've been serving now
And seven long more have to stay
All for bashing a bloke down our alley
And taking his ticker away

Oh had I the wings of a turtle dove
I'd soar on my pinions so high
Slap bang to the arms of my Polly love
And in her sweet presence I'd die

Now all my young Dookies and Dutchesses
Take warning from what I've to say
Mind all is your own as you toucheses
Or you'll find us in Botany Bay

Notes

First published in Sydney Golden Songster in 1893 This song is a burlesque, written by Stephens and Yardley, from the comedy 'Little Jack Shepherd' that played in London in 1885, and in Melbourne in 1886. 'Botany Bay' shares two verses with 'Fairwell to Judges and Juries' a broadside c.1820


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Percustard
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 01:32 AM

Anyone got the words and tune to 'Fairwell to Judges and Juries'?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: BOTANY BAY
From: Percustard
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 01:36 AM

BOTANY BAY 2
From http://www.crixa.com/muse/songnet/011.html

Come all young men of learning, a warning take by me
I'll have you quit night walking and shun bad company
I'll have you quit night walking, or else you'll rue the day
And you will be transported and be sent to Botany Bay

I was brought up in London town, a place I know full well
Brought up by honest parents, the truth to you I'll tell
Brought up by honest parents, who loved me tenderly
Till I became a roving blade, to prove my destiny

My character was taken and I was sent to goal
My parents tried to clear me, but nothing would prevail
'Twas at our Rutland sessions the Judge to me did say
The jury's found you guilty; you must go to Botany Bay

To see my poor old father, as he stood at the bar
Likewise my dear old mother, her old gray locks she tore
And in tearing of her old gray locks these words to me she did say
O son! O son! What hast thou done, Thou art bound for Botany Bay

Notes

This version collected by the great English collector Cecil Sharp early this century. It is closely related to 'The Transport' also in this collection. See also 'Girls of the Shamrock Shore'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: FAREWELL TO JUDGES AND JURIES
From: Hrothgar
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 05:02 AM

Words for "FAREWELL TO JUDGES AND JURIES" from "farewell to Old England" by Hugh Anderson, Rigby Limited, Adelaide, 1964.

No tune given.

Here's bad luck to you, Mr. Justice Paley,
And also to you, Gentlemen of the jury,
For seven years, you've sent me from my true love,
Seven years, I'm transported, I know.

To go to a strange country don't grieve me,
Nor leaving old England behind,
It is all for the sake of my Polly,
And leaving my parents behind.

There's the captain that is our commander,
There's the boatswainn and all the ship's Crew,
There is married men, too, and there's single,
Who knows what we transports do.

Dear Polly, I'm going to leave you
For seven long years, love, and more,
But that time will appear but a moment,
When return'd to the girl I adore.

If ever i return from the Ocean,
Stores of riches I'll bring for my dear,
It's all for the sake of my Polly,
I'll cross the salt seas for my dear.

How hard is the place of confinement,
That keeps me from my heart's delight,
Cold chains and irons surround me,
And a plank for my pillow at night.

How often I wish that the eagle
Would lend me her wings, I would fly,
Then I'd fly to the arms of my Polly,
And on her soft bosom I'd die.

Punctuation as published, not mine.

Broadside reference given as:

4o. Preston, Harkness (c. 1820)
Copies: Ashton, "Modern Street Ballads," (1880); reprinted in Anderson, "Botany Bay Broadsides" 1956. Ferguson Bibliography Ite 1348


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: rich-joy
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 08:31 AM

Oh dear, Bob, I think I may have had a bit too much of the Black Stuff to r'ember that now!!! But Danny Spooner would know - coz he asked Katie (Harrison) to sing it at the session!!! Cheers! R-J


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: GENTLE ANNIE
From: Stewie
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:34 PM

Hrothgar mentioned an Australian version of 'Gentle Annie'. In the Australian outback Foster's piece became a bird of a very different wing. There are several variants, but the text of an unusual one was given to Danny Spooner by Dave Lumsden who said his family tradition had that it was written for his grandmother's sister, but that he believed it was probably written for a friend - both girls were 15 at the time. The words were by Jack Cousens who was an itinerant worker around the Murray River in the 1890s. Cousens spent much of his time with the travelling steam-driven threshing machines that travelled from town to town.

GENTLE ANNIE

Now the harvest time is come, Gentle Annie
And the wild oats they are scattered o'er the field
And you'll be anxious to know, Gentle Annie
How your little crop of oats is going to yield

And we're travelling down the road into Barna
And we're following the feeder, Billy Yates
When we arrive and we see the donah
She's the little girl we left at Tommy Waits'

So we must meet again Gentle Annie
As each year we're travelling round your door
And we never will forget you, Gentle Annie
You're the little dark-eyed girl we do adore

Well, your mutton's very sweet, Gentle Annie
And your wines they can't be beat in New South Wales
But you'd better get a fence round your cabbage
Or they'll all be eaten up by the snails

And you'll take my advice, Gentle Annie,
And you're bound to watch old Chaffie going away
With a pack bag hung over his saddle
For he stole some knives and forks the other day

Yes, we must meet again Gentle Annie
Each year as we're travelling round your door
And we never can forget you, Gentle Annie
You're the little dark-eyed girl we all adore

Well, your little bed of oats is fresh, Gentle Annie
And the bullocks they are yoked to go away
You'll be sorry when we're gone, Gentle Annie
For you'll want us then to stop and thresh the hay

But we must say farewell, Gentle Annie,
For you know with you we cannot longer stay
But we hope one and all, Gentle Annie,
To be with you on another threshing day

--Stewie.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Hrothgar
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 07:10 AM

Ooh, nice, Stewie. Couple of verses I haven't seen before!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:22 AM

Bob,

"...The mythical "Marlborough" song only appears decades after the real Waltzing Matilda ... probably a WW I parody by either Aussies or Poms ... remembered and back-shifted by the children and grandchildren of ANZACs...."

As I recall, Pete Coe found a chunk of the first verse in the early 1970s and wrote the rest of the song to a tune he thought *might* have been around, "Strawhead" recorded it (with some alteration to the lyrics)[1] and it is this version which has gained popularity. So "Gay Fusilier" (or whatever title is used) well post dates WWI (let alone Marlborough).

Tom

[1]Possibly believing it to be an old piece


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:53 AM

G'day Walrus,

Snatches of the "Marlborough" song were collected by John meredith from the families of WW I soldiers. These clearly could date back to WW I, but the only evidence of greater antiquity is the family statement that "Grand-dad knew and he said it was very old ..."

Pete Coe's fragment comes from this group of post-WW I snatches of song - probably from one of the Australian books that tried to argue that these were signs of some "proper" English ancestor to Waltzing Matilda ... he made the rest up to flesh it out ... and, I think, discovered he had created his own Frankenstein's Monster!

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: GUEST,Bruce, Melbourne Australia
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 11:13 AM

According to John meredith & Hugh Anderson book "Folk songs of Australia and the Men and Women Who Sang Them" that Arther Buchanan and a Fred Sloane learn Waltzing Matilida well before Paterson was meant to have written it according to the Paterson-Macpherson legend.

What most people fail to remember that Paterson was a collector of "Old bush Songs" during that period and eventually published in 1905 a book titled "Old Bush Songs Composed and Sung in the Bushranging, Digging and Overlanding Days".

It is quite possible that Paterson heard the song, cleaned up and/or added to the words and was looking for a tune to go with it. what supprise me as someone who has read a lot of Paterson verse is that Waltzing Matilda isn't in a similar style.

Bruce


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Stewie
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 09:23 PM

John Manifold wrote quite extensively on the 'Waltzing Matilda' story in chapter 5 of his fascinating little book 'Who Wrote the Ballads: Notes on Australian Folksong' Australasian Book Society 1964. Manifold said he relied for facts, but not judgments, on Sydney May's 'Story of Waltzing Matilda' (1955 edition), family tradition and his own discoveries. Well worth a read for those interested.

--Stewie.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 08:12 AM

G'day Bruce & Stewie,

John Meredith was always adamant that Waltzing Matilda was widely known, long before Paterson 'wrote' it. He was also equally adamant that the tune had no resemblance to Bonny Wood of Craigielea ... and that there was no evidence of the 'cock and bull story' of it being written at Dagworth in 1895.

Since then (based on Richard Magoffin's researches, recently released McPherson familt letters and papers and the holograph copies of the 1895 song and tune that I have had access, to), I have shown how the successive versions - WS Barr's original Craigielea - Thomas Bulch's 1893 'quick march' arrangement of Craigielea - Christina McPherson's holograph version of the tune as she remembered it from hearing the Bulch arrangement at Warnambool Races - and the Marie Cowan ("Billy Tea') arrangement ... all progress in logical steps from each other. John and I had to agree to disagree on this one.

John's belief in the antiquity of the song is mostly a product of his good country manners - he would never doubt the word of an older informant. Unfortunately, for there to have really been an older Waltzing Matilda ... based on a much older Marlborough ... - and for these to have totally escaped the attention of an energetic British collecting fraternity ... and, particularly, for not one person to have commented on the existence of older versions at the time that Waltzing Matilda was spread round the English-speaking world by Australian troops in WW I would be truly remarkable. All the claims to its existence cited by the writers mentiones above come from at least a whole generation after the publication of Waltzing Matilda ... usually rather more!

As we are getting a lot more information than any of the pioneer folklorists had access to ... and finding the personal details on Paterson's love life (the reason that Magoffin seems to have dropped the research ... !) the real story takes on some all too solid flesh! (and Marlborough marches over some distant hill.)

Regards,

Bob Bolton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 04:36 PM

Yet another great thread that I had missed other times around. Lately it is too damn easy to miss the golden needles in the huge haystack that Mudcat has become---even when I'm looking for those.

Thanks for keeping this alive long enough for even me to notice it.

Art Thieme


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Percustard
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 07:32 PM

Hi all,

This is a good thread. If a little off track toward the end from the original title of the thread.

There are a few other threads on Craigielea and Waltzing Matilda in Mudcat.

I agree with Bob. Indeed, (shameless plug alert) my band Tursacan does a rendition of Craigielea which segues into Waltzing Matilda (in 5.4 - there is a 5.4 bar in Macpherson's "original").

It is interesting how song origins get "muffled" and "muddled" over the centuries. It is sometimes very hard work getting to the heart of the matter and putting together an arguable case based on "facts" and rational induction.

Its like genealogy in song!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 02:15 AM

Hope you're still looking this site up,Bob. There is a Eumarella Beach in Victoria, at the mouth of the Eumarella River near Yambuk on the Great Ocean Road, and a Numarella in NSW, just outside of Cooma. The Penguin Collection of Australian Folk Songs compiled by John Manifold and first published in 1964 has the opening line of the song as "There's a long green gulley by the Numarella shore, where I've lounged through many is the day". A friend purchased a property by the river in Numeralla, NSW, and his district map of the area showed an area called "The Long Green Gully", so that seems to to be the district that the song was written about.

Nina Berry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Joybell
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 07:19 PM

Yes indeed Nina -- Yambuk is just south-west of us and people out here sang this song as "The Eumeralla Shore". They also sang "Darlin' Nelly Grey" as singers did all over Victoria.
The influence of the American song-sheet market, during the 19th century, on Australia has been very much under-rated.

Just to tie up another loose end -- the "Billy Barlow" songs can be studied on Warren Fahey's website. Sorry, blue clickies don't work for me even after intensive help.
Cheers, Joy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 11:04 PM

Billy Barlow

===================

joy -

URL = http://warrenfahey.com/barlow/

IMPORTANT - don't omit the front bit, ie. http://   

2. past full URL in link URL line
3. type in text
4. Create link
5. DON'T cut & paste as it tells you

instead COPY & paste & voila - a workable blue clicky appears
-----------

If you omit the http:// the blickifier adds mudcat's URL in its place cos it thinks you are referring to a page in www.mudcat.org so you get something like
http://www.mudcat.org.warrenfahey.com/barlow/

sandra


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 01:47 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5w75f_Lz_Ahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5w75f_Lz_A it reminds me of an American tune cant think what?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 05:34 PM

G'day (Guest) Nina Berry,

There are a few other rivers about the eastern end of Australia with similar names. I suspect that Eumarella / Numarella and such are each local Australian Aboriginal names ... probably meaning something quite like ~ "the river"!

By the goldrush days (post-1850) literacy was pretty near universal ... overseas mail and publications arrived regularly ... ordinary people were beginning to earn more than a mere living wage ... and American sheet music was prolific (and often 'pirated' from British originals, as the USA has a long history as the great copyright pirates of the Western world!

Genuinely American composers (e.g. Henry Clay Work / Stephen Foster / &c., &c.) were big influences on the popular taste ( ... and tune ...) and some remained popular here far beyond their "5-minutes fame" back home in the USA, eg H. C. Work's Ring the Bell, Watchman, which celebrated the end of the (American) Civil War ... and was subsequently forgotten - at home when it ceased to be news.

However, the song remained published in Australian compilations for many decades after ... became thought of as a "hymn" - then was found to fit nicely to the rhythm of the newly popular "Barn Dance" (a version of the older Military Schottische ... influenced by an American music sheet ~ Dancing in a Barn ... and, as Ring the Bell, (Watchman) remained the staple tune for a social Barn Dance for the next century!

We should never fall into the trap of confining our ideas to (hoped for) narrow sources!

Regards,

Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 09:53 PM

G'day again,

Oh yes ... and I forgot to carry on that Ring the Bell Watchman then acquired words about the older style blade-shearing (before machine shears) of Australian wool sheep - as Click Go the Shears ...

... and then, in 1966 when Australia changed to decimal currency, we found ourselves being serenaded by the Government's 'jingle' In Come the Dollars, In come the cents ... to the same tune and rhyme structure!

Regard(les)s,

Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 04:54 AM

a bit of linguistic burrowing has unearthed this..
The name Eumarella is a corruption of Numarella, an Aboriginal word for .. valley of plenty.

freda


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 08:32 PM

G'day Freda,

That's an interesting 'translation' ... but we have to ponder just how much of that came from the local language speaker ... and how much might have been read in by the Gubba writing it down. It might well be that the cross-language exchange involved the name (which is obviously going to be some 'description' of the area being asked about ... and "a valley with a good river" might well mean, in practical and pragmatic terms, exactly the same as a "valley of plenty".

It might also depend on whether the scribe is an ethnographer ... or a real estate developer!

Regard(les),

Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:01 PM

Thanks, Sandra.
A key point about printed sources during the 19th century in relation to Australia is that -- the American fast clippers could get the sheet music here faster than the British ships could.
However even with this in mind, my studies of popular songs(early 1800s to 1870ish)show a much larger proportion of sheet-music written by Americans like Henry Clay Work, Stephen Foster, William Shakespeare Hays etc. in Australia than songs by English composers. Not that I actually count them but I've always had the inclination to seek out sources and piece together old puzzles.
Cheers, Joy from near one of the Valleys-of-Plenty.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Australian/American songs: similarities
From: Midchuck
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 07:59 PM

During the 1800's Australia and Americian had a lot of cross migration, besides sailors and whalers jumping ship.

Before the Califorian Gold Rushes there were a lot of Australian Convicts that had escaped or migrated to the West coast of Americian, then During the Califorian Gold rush many Free Settlers from Australia joined in the rush.

When Australia Gold rush started many from the Califorian gold fields followed the gold and came to Australian Gold fields, then when the gold rush in Australia settled down many moved back to Americia for the Alaskian and Yukon gold rushes and many returned for the Kalgoorlie and Palmer gold rushes


Google "Thomas Francis Meagher".

Irish Nationalist, convicted of sedition, transported for life. Escaped, made it to America, ended up a Brigadier General in the Union Army in the Civil War, then acting Governor of Montana Territory. All before drowning in the Missouri at age 43...

Peter


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 18 November 7:21 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.