Origins: Constant Lovers

Subject: music to song
From: brioc
Date: 06 Jan 02 - 12:00 PM

can anyone find me either the midi version, or plain notation to the song " Constant Lovers" thanks Brigid

Subject: RE: music to song
From: MMario
Date: 06 Jan 02 - 12:37 PM

this is one of the "missing tunes" in the DT -it HAS been found and a midi sent to the Digital tradtition - but it is not one of the ones that has passed through me. it is possible either the contributer or the collector may post here.

Subject: ADD Tune: Constant Lovers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jan 02 - 06:59 PM

Ivan B sent me a Noteworthy file of the tune. I'll e-mail a MIDI to Brioc. I think the songwriter was Dave Webber - it that right? -Joe Offer- [e-mail]

---

MIDI file: CONSTLOV.MID

Timebase: 192

Text: Generated by NoteWorthy Composer
Key: G
TimeSig: 3/4 24 8
Name: Staff
Start
0000 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 67 110 0094 0 67 000 0002 1 71 110 0256 0 71 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 64 110 0256 0 64 000 0032 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 60 110 0336 0 60 000 0048 1 60 110 0094 0 60 000 0002 1 59 110 0094 0 59 000 0002 1 57 110 0256 0 57 000 0032 1 59 110 0094 0 59 000 0002 1 60 110 0160 0 60 000 0032 1 62 110 0256 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 67 110 0094 0 67 000 0002 1 69 110 0256 0 69 000 0032 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 67 110 0336 0 67 000 0048 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 67 110 0094 0 67 000 0002 1 69 110 0256 0 69 000 0032 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 69 110 0336 0 69 000 0048 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 72 110 0160 0 72 000 0032 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 71 110 0096 0 71 000 0000 1 72 110 0094 0 72 000 0002 1 74 110 0286 0 74 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 67 110 0256 0 67 000 0032 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 64 110 0336 0 64 000 0048 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 69 110 0096 0 69 000 0000 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 72 110 0160 0 72 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 67 110 0576 0 67 000 0000 1 66 110 0336 0 66 000 0048 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 67 110 0288 0 67 000 0000 1 69 110 0096 0 69 000 0000 1 71 110 0192 0 71 000 0000 1 62 110 0670 0 62 000 0002 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 60 110 0094 0 60 000 0002 1 60 110 0336 0 60 000 0048 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 66 110 0336 0 66 000 0048 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 67 110 0256 0 67 000 0032 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 60 110 0094 0 60 000 0002 1 72 110 0256 0 72 000 0032 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 71 110 0096 0 71 000 0000 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 67 110 0336 0 67 000
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the latest version of MIDItext and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:Staff
M:3/4
Q:1/4=120
K:G
D2GB3|A2G2G2|F2E3E|D2C4|CB,A,3B,|C2D3E|F2GA3|
F2G4|FGA3D|D2A4|ABc2B2|A2Bcd2|-dBG2G2|-GFE4|
AAABc2|A2G4|-G2F4|EDG3A|B2D4|-D3E2D|-DCC4|
DDE2A2|G2F4|D2G3A|B2Cc3|B2BAG2|F2G7/2||

Subject: RE: music to song: Constant Lovers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jan 02 - 09:53 PM

There are several completely different traditional songs that sometimes have this title, though I didn't know that Dave Webber had added a modern song to the canon; as Dick Greenhaus has said more than once, titles are a snare and a delusion.  For example, in the DT:

CONSTANT LOVERS   (As I was a-walking down by the sea shore...)

The Constant Lovers  (A sailor courted a farmer's daughter...)

There are others.  Which one were you looking for?

Subject: RE: music to song: Constant Lovers
From: Anglo
Date: 06 Jan 02 - 10:15 PM

Dave Webber and Anni Fentiman sing what is essentially Malcolm's 1st listing, above, which as I recall they attribute to Bob Copper. Dave certainly has never claimed to have written it.

The ABC of the tune, further above, is wrongly barred - the first note is a one beat pick-up and the barlines need to be moved accordingly.

Subject: RE: music to song: Constant Lovers
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 02 - 10:17 PM

Malcolm, Dave Webber & Anni Fentiman recorded the first one you linked to, and it's traditional.

Subject: RE: music to song: Constant Lovers
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 02 - 10:58 PM

I think this might work better. (Might not, either) MidiText does some strange things when converting MIDIs to ABC.

T:Constant Lovers
M:3/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=120
K:G
Z5D|G2B3A|G2G2F2|E3ED2|
C4CB,|A,3B,C2|D3EF2|GA3F2|G4FG|
A3DD2|A4AB|c2B2A2|Bcd3B|
G2G3F|E4AA|ABc2A2|G2F4|
EDG3A|B2D4|Z2E2D2|
C2C4|D2E2A2|G2F4|D2G3A|
B2Cc3|B2BAG2|F2G4||

Subject: RE: music to song: Constant Lovers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Jan 02 - 10:09 AM

Oh, I know it's traditional; I used to sing the Copper set myself, though I knew it as My Love has Gone.  I thought Joe was talking about another song of the same name, but if I'd translated the abc at the time, I'd have realised it was The Drowned Lover again.  Still found in tradition, particularly in Southern England, incidentally, and sometimes linked with Stowbrow (near Whitby in Yorkshire), though its real history is probably more complicated.  There are several texts in the DT, under various titles, beside the Constant Lovers (not its usual name) linked to above; the English ones don't differ a great deal.  Laws gave it his number K18, and it's number 185 in Steve Roud's Folksong Index.

THE FORSAKEN MERMAID  From the Copper Family Songbook, with tune.

I NEVER WILL MARRY  From the Weavers (at one remove), though with no indication of their source; reference is made to an earlier recording by Texas Gladden of a different version.  Two tunes are given; presumably the first is the one used by the Weavers, but the second is a puzzle; perhaps it was Gladden's?

OH MY LOVE IS GONE (Sussex)  A text harvested from the Forum, apparently learned from Cyril Tawney with only a few very small differences from the Copper Family set.  No tune given, but it will be the same as theirs.

In the Forum:  lyrics:I Never Will Marry  Two texts, one with suggested chords.  No indication as to the source of either.

There are several broadside copies at  Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads;  here is one:

The lover's lament for her sailor  Printed c.1840 by W. & T. Fordyce, Printers, 48, Dean street, Newcastle.

There are even more examples there of the other Constant Lovers that I referred to (Laws 041, Roud 993), mostly of the early-to-mid 19th Century; such as:

The constant lovers  Printed between 1819 and 1844 by J. Pitts, Printer, Toy and Marble warehouse, 6, Great St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials [London].

There is also what may be an earlier and much longer version,  The Goodhurst garland. In three parts  Date unknown; "printed and Sold in Aldermary Church Yard, London".

Subject: RE: music to song: Constant Lovers
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 Jan 02 - 07:42 PM

it was the title track on Dave and Anni's 3rd album, and the notes confirm that their version was put together by Bob Copper from family knowledge and the Gardiner manuscripts. They actually learnt it from Ron Spicer, and so did Moira Craig.

But Malcolm's post on the connection with Stowbrow is interesting, because I have a vague memory that Robin Garside turned up at Herga one evening a few years ago and sang Constant Lovers too.

Kitty

Subject: RE: music to song: Constant Lovers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Jan 02 - 09:57 PM

Robin reckoned that he learnt his version from Jayne Clark of Grimsby, but that was back in the '70s, so heaven knows where she got it from...

Subject: RE: music to song: Constant Lovers
From: Anglo
Date: 07 Jan 02 - 11:00 PM

Well to me at least the second "I Never Will Marry" tune is just a frilly version of the first one in a different key. Texas Gladden sings a slightly different version of the tune, but on the whole I'd call it much more similar than different.

Subject: RE: music to song: Constant Lovers
From: brioc
Date: 08 Jan 02 - 02:00 AM

hello malcom douglas, Joe Offer very kindly sent me the midi. I am not sure that it passes. The one I want is the first one:::::as I was walking down by the sea shore................. thanks Brigid

Subject: RE: Origins: Constant Lovers
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 03:04 PM

This thread seems a suitable place to mention the Singer/Song/Sources articles in the Autumn 2012 English Dance & Song. Derek Schofield explores the complex ancestry of the version recently recorded by Maz O'Connor. He mentions the story that 'Jim Copper had the first verse and Bob completed it from the Gardiner manuscripts' but points out that those manuscripts do not contain the words as sung by Bob, and he quotes Jon Dudley as thinking it "unlikely that Bob searched manuscripts or broadsides at Cecil Sharp House". Derek also points out that the notes to the 4 LP set "A Song for Every Season" state "First verse and tune from Jim Copper (from his father), rest of words from Folk magazine, No. 1".

So we already have two conflicting accounts of where Bob got the other verses.

I can add one snippet. I recall Bob recounting that he got fed up with Jim singing the single verse over and over and therefore went and found the other verses. I think I heard Bob tell that story, but I might have read it in one of his books. Anyway, associated with that story in my mind is a statement from someone (possibly Bob himself or possibly someone else) that he got the other verses from an American version.

Can anyone confirm any of that?

Richard