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Help needed for betwixt-and-between
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Subject: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: GUEST,Jon Bartlett Date: 07 Jan 02 - 10:16 PM My singing partner and I are looking for something which maybe doesn't exist – a middle ground between "folkies" and folk academics. Dearly though we love them all, we find constantly that we're too folkie for the academics and vice versa. Can anyone out in Mudcatland help us? What we're looking for, we think, might be a) a summer school in balladry b) courses or the like in balladry with an emphasis on the *meaning* of the blessed things or c) other things of this nature. A magazine? A list-serv? Help, mudcatters! |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: SeanM Date: 07 Jan 02 - 11:47 PM Have you tried folk festivals that feature workshops, or your local folk music/instrument stores? Lark in the Morning (www.larkinam.com) does a California Bay Area folk workshop getaway yearly... I think the East Coast "Folk Songs Getaway" does classes as well. I've heard tale of others doing similar deals. The standard pattern seems to be a large amount of people getting together around barely adequate camp areas, holding a number of 'workshops' ranging from wide interest ('Folk in America') to specific ('Bodhrahn triplet techniques'), and then playing great music most of the night while drinking the contents of a couple major breweries. I am pretty sure they have this sort of thing in the UK too. At least, I think I'm pretty sure. Actually, honestly, I haven't the slightest, but I hope they do. M |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: paddymac Date: 08 Jan 02 - 12:11 AM Jon - Ypu didn't indicate where you're located, and I'm sure there are a great many summer programs that could meet your needs. One in particular that I'm pleased to recommend is at |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: GUEST,Jon Bartlett Date: 08 Jan 02 - 12:12 AM Thanks, Sean. The kinds of things you describe are what got us started in the first place. In fact, we (the Vancouver Folk Song Society) run two of those things (Camp Sasamat, early Dec each yr., and Camp Alexandra, 1st weekend in July). Rika and I are ready to go a little bit farther, and it's precisely where to go now that we're asking. We started a ballad group here in Vancouver which met monthly for 18 months or so, and corresponded with a similar group in Toronto. Our group would sing and drink and talk, but there wasn't much time for folk to do the kind of research required to get the answers to the questions we were asking. Beyond us appeared as it were a great gulf, until one landed on the shores of academia (and even there, the ballad scholars were somewhere else, not in our part of the world at all). Short of abandoning our jobs (and even our province) to join the academics, how can we move further along? A summer Ballad school (2 weeks, say) led by interesting singers/academics, would be perhaps a place to start, and that's what the query to Mudcatters is: is there such a place? Or anything else? |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Jon Bartlett Date: 08 Jan 02 - 12:20 AM Thanks, Paddymac. We're in New Westminster, BC Canada. Do you have the email site of the program you describe? Cheers! |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: paddymac Date: 08 Jan 02 - 12:29 AM Dang. I thought I put it in the first message. It was in angle brackets and appears to have gone astray. It is "www.commongroundonthehill.com". That's "common ground on the hill", withought the spaces. You can find it very easily by doing a google search for "commongroundonthehill". |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: katlaughing Date: 08 Jan 02 - 12:33 AM Glad to see Jeff got you sorted on your membership cookie, Jon. I know it sounds as though you are looking for something more in the 3D world and it sounds as though you've been around the Mudcat before, but you might not know about a couple of new things we have, along with a couple of new scholarly types. One is the new permathread, Song Origins which George Seto started. Through his diligent searching and the contributions of many others, including Masato and Dicho, we've got a lot of threads, alphabetised, which give a lot of interesting info, some of it quite *academic.* Anyway, I guess I would advise you to stick around Mudcat more, though it may not seem as scholarly as in early days, it's still more so than a lot of places AND you will hear of 3D camps and such here. Good luck and welcome back! kat |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Jon Freeman Date: 08 Jan 02 - 01:15 AM Interesting the betwixt-and-between thoughts. I guess I am a little that way even with Mudcat. I am certainly not an academic and in truth, within songs, tend to have more interest in melodies than lyrics or history but still I like to read notes to songs and learn a little. I guess I also like to see scope for people to do these things but maybe that is the frustrated "programmer" (I'm not a real one) within me. I started toying with the idea of another song database this weekend. The idea is not to rival the dt but to provide a more specific focus and to provide a system that maybe a team could contribute to and to provide comphrensive notes to the songs where apprpriate- all of which could be updated on line... I'm also thinking of systems to cross reference songs within the db... I'd guess the closest internet resource to what I am thinking in terms of is the Contemplator site but this one could take its own shape and have any number of seriously interested contrbutors adding to the database. I'm just playing with ideas but, as with other areas, I see scope for development and there is the possibility of a useful resource in its own right coming out of it. I haven't really got anything to show at the moment - just a couple of test pages that may give an idea of how some could view, some could be part of a team of "admins" and how songs can be related. It can be found here. It is just an idea at the moment and may come to nothing but if anyone is interested, feel free to play with the part system or pass comments. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: katlaughing Date: 08 Jan 02 - 01:24 AM HeyaJon, I like the way you've combined all of the info on each song. That's got some real possibilities to it and it seems quite elegant. Great idea and sample! |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Jon Freeman Date: 08 Jan 02 - 12:33 PM Thanks kat. I think I will follow this one through to some complete system and I may start again tomorrow after I bury Whiskey - not been a good day today - you know the time you have to face up to the fact a cat is dying and is starting to appear distressed, take it to the vets with that sort of 1/4 hope that the vet will find something they can cure but you really know what the outcome will be... Jon |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Cappuccino Date: 08 Jan 02 - 12:40 PM Sorry to hear that, Jon - yes, we do know what it's like. - Ian B |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 09 Jan 02 - 05:56 AM Yes, it looks pretty good, Jon. Paddymac, sorry, but Mudcat is an "active" HTML system, which means that it interprets messages as html, so if you put something within angle brackets, it is assumed that you have written something for the HTML to interpret. You CAN use Angle brackets, but only if you use HTML code to generate them. < and > for < and > Jon G, that's a wonderful idea. |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Noreen Date: 09 Jan 02 - 08:18 AM Clicky for paddymac's link: www.commongroundonthehill.com/ Do you have a genre of ballads in mind, Jon? You could plan a holiday in Ireland and take in a week or two of summer schools in traditional singing and balladry. Or the wonderful Folkworks summerschools in Durham (NE England) would serve your purpose too. How far are you prepared to travel? *grin* Noreen |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Anglo Date: 09 Jan 02 - 12:10 PM A major on-line resource for the type of thing you're looking for is The Ballad Index. http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html (sorry no blue clicky but no angle brackets either). Lots of information there and always a good starting point for your own research. I find that the program at most camps varies depending on who the staff people are. Vocal week at Augusta Heritage in Elkins WV might be a good possibility, but check who's there first. The same goes for Common Ground, which to me seems to have more of an emphasis on instruments and songwriting than traditional music. Don't overlook Folk Music Week at Pinewoods Camp (near Plymouth MA) of the Country Dance & Song Society. Sara Grey was program chair for the last couple of years, and brought traditional ballad-singers over from Scotland and Ireland, as well as from the US. Over the years they've had a huge range of teachers and they've always had a strong emphasis on traditional song. Check out their programs at http://www.cdss.org/ Their website lists their programs for the past few years. With an interest in traditional singing that's the place I'd check out first. Unfortunately I'll not be there this year but I've been many times in the past. |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: katlaughing Date: 09 Jan 02 - 12:15 PM Sorry, Jon, I missed this yesterday. I am very sorry to hear about Whiskey. It's never easy and I've got at least 6 more times of it, counting the current feline population at our house. My sympathies to you and your mom. luvyakat |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Jan 02 - 12:48 PM The "Traditional Ballad Index" is among the links provided by the green "Links" at the top of the page (I don't know why Mudcat has "The" attached to some of the sites- most listings avoid this). Their format is good and seems to provide the info you want. For a number of the songs, the information in Mudcat is more complete than that in the Index, if sometimes difficult to find. Nothing is more frustrating that to put in the title of a song version and come up blank even though, when you finally find it in the DT, it has the same title as the one you put into DT- example, Harry Jackson's version of Streets of Laredo). I would guess, however, that you want to provide as well for non-trad composed songs that are played by "folk" musicians. It seems to me that there are already a number of indices, admittedly not perfect, and I rather hate to see more. Perhaps a compromise would be to have your index, but linked to the other major listings. A good deal of anything started from scratch would be duplication of other resources, and by linking to pertinent information already out there, much of this would be avoided. |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Jon Freeman Date: 09 Jan 02 - 01:05 PM Thanks for the feedback and for the sympathy. I haven't really got round to doing anything for the past couple of days but I would still estimate (my own "internal" target)that I will have a more complete version with search facilites up and possibly a means of uploading MIDIs (new territory to me)running by the end of Sunday night. The biggest problem I am having is making my mind up as to what I want the system to do and how I want it to look... It may sound daft but that part can be much harder than the programming itself. Noreen, I have no specific area of focus in mind. Re Ireland, I had toyed with the idea of getting over there this February, not for singing but for the Balyvaughan Fetival which atrracts a number of people I know from Bangor but I have a brother who is getting married and possibly moving to Australia that month... I'll have to see what the year brings. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Homeless Date: 09 Jan 02 - 01:14 PM Hey Jon - don't you know you're supposed to do the design BEFORE the development? *g* |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Jon Freeman Date: 09 Jan 02 - 01:17 PM LOL Homeless, you are of course correct - maybe I should apply SSADM! Jon |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Jon Freeman Date: 11 Jan 02 - 07:43 AM I recieved a couple of comments via PM that it wasn't really clear what the DB I am trying to develop would be like. I have sorted out most of the ideas of what I want to do now and have put the results of an "admin" view at http://www.jonbanjo.com/songs/. I have decided to settle for the Roud Index which I'm told is the most comprehensive although not currently availible on the internet as my "standard" reference to an external index. My main aim is a relitivley narrow focus - traditional but with completeness. By completeness, I mean the lyrics and hopefully tunes from documented sources and accurately transcribed, some meaningful information about each song and means of making it reasonably easy to find related songs which are in the database. Perhaps, most importantly of all, I am aiming to do go about it in such a way that corrections and additions can be made on line and in such a way that should things evolve, it has the capabilites of being a team effort rather than the more common solo approach. The only area I am still undecided on is the tunes. Im a bit torn between using MIDI and ABC and am also toying with the idea of trying to look for the possibility of conversion programs, perhaps to allow MIDI and GIF from ABC - I have some researching to do... Jon |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:21 AM Jon, one preference I have...not sure if it fits with your ideas of scholarship and completeness... I REALLY like to read the words to a song as I hear the embedded tune. You mentioned Lesley's site. She does this as well as Barry's tunebook at her site. I think this makes the site much more user friendly, thus accessible to those of use who are not familiar with the various songs. So many songs that people here are familiar with, I heard for the first time at Lesley's and Barry's sites. If I had not had the words and tune at the same time, I probably would have missed them. I like your idea about related tunes. I've enjoyed Lesley's Child Ballad site for that reason. |
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Subject: RE: Help needed for betwixt-and-between From: Jon Freeman Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:59 PM Mary, I would first have to learn about scholarship to answer that... I have no plans to use embedded tunes in these pages - just plain and boring although perhaps in some instances, more than one tune or a significant variations of a tune with some songs. Having said that, I have wasted the odd hour on Contemplayor just singing along with the MIDIs so I agree it can work well! Jon |
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