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BS: What annoys me about mudcat

GUEST,PaulM 10 Jan 02 - 02:54 PM
Little Hawk 10 Jan 02 - 02:58 PM
CarolC 10 Jan 02 - 03:07 PM
SharonA 10 Jan 02 - 03:10 PM
GUEST 10 Jan 02 - 03:41 PM
MMario 10 Jan 02 - 03:48 PM
Raptor 10 Jan 02 - 03:50 PM
GUEST 10 Jan 02 - 03:52 PM
Maxine 10 Jan 02 - 04:07 PM
MMario 10 Jan 02 - 04:10 PM
Joe Offer 10 Jan 02 - 04:12 PM
MMario 10 Jan 02 - 04:15 PM
gnu 10 Jan 02 - 04:19 PM
MMario 10 Jan 02 - 04:22 PM
Maryrrf 10 Jan 02 - 04:26 PM
Willa 10 Jan 02 - 04:27 PM
Joe Offer 10 Jan 02 - 04:42 PM
SharonA 10 Jan 02 - 04:44 PM
SDShad 10 Jan 02 - 04:47 PM
Lepus Rex 10 Jan 02 - 06:00 PM
Jeri 10 Jan 02 - 06:01 PM
Joe_F 10 Jan 02 - 06:15 PM
53 10 Jan 02 - 06:37 PM
Midchuck 10 Jan 02 - 06:53 PM
Little Hawk 10 Jan 02 - 07:09 PM
catspaw49 10 Jan 02 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,Shenandoah 10 Jan 02 - 07:22 PM
kendall 10 Jan 02 - 07:37 PM
Art Thieme 10 Jan 02 - 07:51 PM
Jon Freeman 10 Jan 02 - 08:02 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 10 Jan 02 - 08:05 PM
53 10 Jan 02 - 08:31 PM
John Routledge 10 Jan 02 - 08:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jan 02 - 08:52 PM
GUEST,Shenandoah 10 Jan 02 - 09:55 PM
ddw 10 Jan 02 - 10:02 PM
kendall 10 Jan 02 - 10:06 PM
Melani 10 Jan 02 - 10:13 PM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 10 Jan 02 - 10:19 PM
John Hardly 10 Jan 02 - 10:27 PM
ddw 10 Jan 02 - 10:44 PM
Jim Dixon 10 Jan 02 - 10:57 PM
Justa Picker 10 Jan 02 - 11:14 PM
GUEST 10 Jan 02 - 11:53 PM
marty D 11 Jan 02 - 12:29 AM
Art Thieme 11 Jan 02 - 12:45 AM
Art Thieme 11 Jan 02 - 12:59 AM
GUEST,Shenandoah 11 Jan 02 - 09:01 AM
John P 11 Jan 02 - 09:20 AM
GUEST 11 Jan 02 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Shenandoah 11 Jan 02 - 09:30 AM
GUEST,Noam C. 11 Jan 02 - 09:31 AM
Steve in Idaho 11 Jan 02 - 10:04 AM
Cappuccino 11 Jan 02 - 10:21 AM
Jon Freeman 11 Jan 02 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,Spot (at the kennels) 11 Jan 02 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,bbc at work 11 Jan 02 - 12:22 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 02 - 12:25 PM
Deckman 11 Jan 02 - 01:05 PM
Murray MacLeod 11 Jan 02 - 01:18 PM
AliUK 11 Jan 02 - 01:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jan 02 - 02:01 PM
Steve in Idaho 11 Jan 02 - 02:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jan 02 - 02:04 PM
53 11 Jan 02 - 06:46 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 02 - 07:51 PM
53 11 Jan 02 - 08:02 PM
Amergin 11 Jan 02 - 08:10 PM
catspaw49 11 Jan 02 - 08:22 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 02 - 08:36 PM
Art Thieme 11 Jan 02 - 09:51 PM
wysiwyg 11 Jan 02 - 10:23 PM
Deckman 11 Jan 02 - 10:37 PM
Jeri 11 Jan 02 - 10:45 PM
John P 11 Jan 02 - 10:47 PM
53 12 Jan 02 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,Shenandoah 12 Jan 02 - 10:12 AM
mack/misophist 12 Jan 02 - 10:35 AM
Jon Freeman 12 Jan 02 - 10:54 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Jan 02 - 03:09 PM
wysiwyg 12 Jan 02 - 04:14 PM
Jon Freeman 12 Jan 02 - 04:33 PM
M.Ted 12 Jan 02 - 05:35 PM
wysiwyg 12 Jan 02 - 05:45 PM
John Hardly 12 Jan 02 - 07:14 PM
catspaw49 12 Jan 02 - 07:30 PM
Jon Freeman 12 Jan 02 - 07:50 PM
Gareth 12 Jan 02 - 08:01 PM
Max 12 Jan 02 - 08:28 PM
Deckman 12 Jan 02 - 08:44 PM
Jon Freeman 12 Jan 02 - 08:52 PM
wysiwyg 12 Jan 02 - 09:50 PM
Melani 12 Jan 02 - 10:32 PM
Rick Fielding 12 Jan 02 - 11:55 PM
Amos 13 Jan 02 - 12:14 AM
Rick Fielding 13 Jan 02 - 12:24 AM
Hilary 13 Jan 02 - 08:14 AM
wysiwyg 13 Jan 02 - 08:46 AM
Jon Freeman 13 Jan 02 - 09:03 AM
Jon Freeman 13 Jan 02 - 09:08 AM
Jon Freeman 13 Jan 02 - 09:10 AM
Jon Freeman 13 Jan 02 - 09:32 AM
GUEST 13 Jan 02 - 09:57 AM
Jeri 13 Jan 02 - 10:46 AM
Rick Fielding 13 Jan 02 - 11:40 AM
katlaughing 13 Jan 02 - 11:41 AM
Jon Freeman 13 Jan 02 - 12:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jan 02 - 02:22 PM
mack/misophist 13 Jan 02 - 06:29 PM
Mark Cohen 13 Jan 02 - 08:06 PM
Art Thieme 13 Jan 02 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,KT 13 Jan 02 - 10:53 PM
Ebbie 14 Jan 02 - 01:30 AM
GUEST 16 Jan 02 - 12:59 AM
Jim Dixon 16 Jan 02 - 10:17 AM
katlaughing 16 Jan 02 - 10:53 AM
CarolC 16 Jan 02 - 11:17 AM
SharonA 16 Jan 02 - 02:13 PM

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Subject: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,PaulM
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:54 PM

1.
This is the main one: Anyone who requests something but never bothers to acknowledge the answer, never mind say thank you.

2.
Related to the above, anyone who expects an answer to a tricky question to be emailed to them. If they can't be bothered to come back, then neither can I...

3.
Anyone who posts in a long thread, saying

"I've not read the whole thread, but I'm so important and I love myself so much so I'll repeat something that was said 50 messages ago, even though I couldn't be bothered to see if it was said before"

Any other pet hates?

PaulM paulmcfadden@hotmail.com


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:58 PM

Paul, you're in good company. There is probably no one here who has not been at times annoyed by Mudcat. It's kind of like life in general that way...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:07 PM

Paul, I don't think this is something that annoys you about the Mudcat. I think it's something that annoys you about some of the people who come to the Mudcat. In my mind, there's a big difference. But I take your point.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:10 PM

My pet peeve (so far; I've only been here for about 7 months): Anyone who starts a thread requesting lyrics or a tune by naming the thread "Help, I need a song" or something equally uninformative about the song itself!

Please, guys, say something about the song in the thread title! A bit of the lyric you remember, or the artist you think sang it or wrote it, or something! Give us a clue!

Part b of this rant: When this sort of thread title does appear, I wish that one or another Joe-clone would change the title to something specific to the thread itself (giving prior warning in the thread to its originator so that [s]he will recognize the new title). Please?

Sharon


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:41 PM

What annoys me most is the way that people like MMario try to make the DT better

They get brick walls


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:48 PM

psssttttt! guest - actually I get quite a bit of cooperation.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Raptor
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:50 PM

What's DT? Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:52 PM

Mmario,

So when does the 'new' DT with the results of your hard work appear?

Or shouldn't I ask?


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Maxine
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:07 PM

Everything I've ever asked has been answered promptly, politely and informatively. I think you are all fab! NOTHING about Mudcat annoys me.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:10 PM

raptor - the DT, or Digital Tradition is the database of lyrics and tunes collected by Dick Greenhaus and Susan of DT; originally on paper, then floppies - now avaialbale on CD's.

the online version of which is hosted here at the MudCat Cafe.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:12 PM

I think you'll find that it's mostly newcomers who give unclear titles to threads and fail to acknowledge answers to lyrics requests. I guess we have to realize that these people are a bit bewildered by this Mudcat that we're so used to, and they don't realize what's expected of them. You'll find a good example in this thread (click). The same person posted a request for the same song in December, and got a reply in ten minutes. This time, I sent an e-mail reply, so that should take care of it - but I'm sure the requestor won't be able to find to original thread to post a thank-you.
The lesson in this is that newcomers are ordinarily bewildered by Mudcat, and it's up to us to accommodate them. Yeah, it's annoying - but that's life.

SharonA complains about misnamed threads. She's right - it is downright annoying. What she doesn't realize, though, is that it happens a lot less often now than it used to. Pene and I monitor the Forum, and change generic thread names and combine duplicate threads whenever we see a need for it. The Clones can't change thread names or alter the content of messages, but they do a wonderful job of correcting technical problems in messages. Oftentimes, we make the changes before anybody notices. We miss a few, but I think we do a pretty good job of fixing the least-descriptive thread titles and correcting messy HTML. We're not here all the time; but I think that between the two of us and the Clones, we scan the forum and make changes several times a day.
It's probably not a good idea to post requests for thread title changes or other editing (except for HTML that locks threads), unless it's for a thread that has been up for a day without being corrected. We try to follow up on requests posted in the Help Forum - but most of the time, the corrections have been made before we see the correction request.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:15 PM

guest - the last I heard (which was a while back I admit) the latest version was about to come out when Microsloth went and introduced windoze-xp; which more or less necessitated a revamp. rumour only.

I trust Dick to get a new version out when he can. I believe a mac 2000 version is available - and likewise a pc-2000 version - but they never went into general circulation.

Dick Greenhaus would be the one to answer your questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:19 PM

I had the DT's once, so now I just stay well oiled. What bothers me about the 'Cat ? Nothing. As CC said, there are some posters who bug me, but the 'Cat is the cat's ass, as far as I'm concerned.

BTW, SharonA makes an excellent point re the succinctness (is that a word ?) of titles. I wish posters would at least use a prefix. I don't think it should be optional, but, hey, what do I know ?


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:22 PM

joe - aren't you suppossed to be with your sweetie?


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Maryrrf
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:26 PM

What annoys me is not mudcat or mudcatters, but the anonymous "guests" who post catty and mean spirited comments but don't identify themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Willa
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:27 PM

Joe; you have made several of the points I was about to make. When I first used mudcat, I didn't realise how the system worked, so failed to acknowledge responses, or titled my threads incorrectly. Sometimes I was put off by angry comments about 'guests', but thanks to other, more helpful comments, particularly by Malcolm douglas, I picked up better 'etiquette', and hope I've been able to make a positive contribution.Bear with us 'newbies'; everything's easy when you know how!


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:42 PM

Mmario, my sweetie is busily taking the kinks out of several chiropractic patients, so that she'll be free to take a brief honeymoon with me next week. The patients generally like me - but they'd prefer to be alone with the Good Doctor Christina in the treatment room.
Right now, I'm trying to come up with a non-alcoholic punch recipe. Can anybody help?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:44 PM

Thanks, Joe, for your quick answer to my tripe gripe! You're right; I didn't know how much more often the "where are the unspecified lyrics" threads used to occur. Okay, now I'll know to submit a correction request to the Help Forum (I'll probably concentrate on those threads that don't even have a "Lyric Request" prefix!).


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: SDShad
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 04:47 PM

Joe, you lucky, lucky dog. Your're marrying a chiropractor? Mind you, not that Beth doesn't give perfectly good backrubs, but an in-house chiro who's actually one's honey, as well?

Wow.

You do realize your back will probably never be out of alignment again.....

Congrats,

Chris


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 06:00 PM

I only hate ONE thing about Mudcat: the goddamned 'clear entries' box next to the 'submit message' box. Totally useless, and really, really annoying when you accidentally hit it after writing a long entry...

Everything else is swell.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 06:01 PM

SDShad, it will probably go out, then in, then out, then in...

(After all, she'll fix problems, but not prevent them.)

My biggest annoyance is people who respond to messages without having read or comprehended them. (I really get annoyed with myself when I goof up, too.)

I pretty much see the anon GUEST nastiness as worthless. Whoever spends so much time and effort posting stuff like that has got far greater problems than I do having to read what they write.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Joe_F
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 06:15 PM

Having to leave Emacs and use the mouse to communicate with this Forum. I wish it were a newsgroup!


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: 53
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 06:37 PM

PEOPLE WHO POST UNDER THE TITLE OF GUEST AND THEY POST BULLSHIT, THEY SHOULD EITHER IDENTIFY THEMSELVES OR SHUT THE HELL UP, ONLY THING THEY ARE, IS FACELESS COWARDS. BOB PUT THAT IN YOUR GUEST PIPE AND SMOKE IT ASSWHOLE.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Midchuck
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 06:53 PM

People who post in ALL UPPER CASE. It's the cyberequivalent of guys who talk very loudly in your face from two feet away with beer and garlic on their breath, and from time to time let some spit fly out.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 07:09 PM

"ASSWHOLE"? Now there's an inspired typo if ever I've seen one... :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 07:21 PM

Yeah, well, this one's deteriorating.......I've been complaining about people not reading posts for a long time.....Wasted effort.

Jeri has made some excellent points......if I understand her correctly.(:<))

Now why don't y'all come over to Joe's stag party? Lots of good stuff happening there....

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 07:22 PM

The Mudcat double standard of blaming anonymous guests for behaving like--asswholes, is it?--while tolerating the same bad (or worse) behavior by members. Bad behavior is bad behavior, regardless. The ways people rip on newcomers in this forum is shameful and inexcusable (IMO). I've been coming and going here for years as a guest, but since the change to member/guest, I think the uniqueness and friendliness you used to see here is gone, except for the precious few.

It seems the "unwelcome" mat is always out for guests, anonymous or not. And that is really sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 07:37 PM

Never look a gift horse in the mouth.And, Mudcat is free, except for those who dont or cant contribute.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 07:51 PM

It's terribly annoying that I and many of the people whose opinions I admire most have, slowly, been turned off by the lowest-common-denominatorizing effects of the lack of folklore and folk music content in so many threads and posts. As a result, they as well as I, am here less and less. So be it.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:02 PM

Perhaps some degree of knowledge of what Mudcat was and of old contributers. Particulary the memory of the attitude I saw towards BruceO. He went over the top but to basically get "good riddance" for someone who had contributed so much, particularly in a society in which members seem to pride themselves as being so caring really was hard to swallow - perhaps caring people could have looked for reasons and means of helping.

Perhaps the knowledge that this forum could be made more accessible to 2 sides of a split without too much difficulty - after all, all it means is some skipping of threads is done automatically... Perhaps worse still, the belief that music tends to be the casualty. Perhaps worse still that the "rows" have existed from before my time and yet not even the "caring" members try to look at alternative solutions.

Perhaps the inabiltiy of Mudcat to fully utilise the resources it has availible. Perhaps worse still to mismanage what it has got. I don't know if I'm still there but my name may still be on the FAQ permathread as a tech helper. I'd go as far as to say that is an embarrasement to me. I'd have loved to have had the freedom to help a permathread owner make what they wanted but at the time, Clones were not able to do that...

Perhaps more than that, the knowledge that there are several excellent programmers in this forum. I'm not one of them and I don't know if they would give time for free but has anyone tried utilising this? All I do know is my offer of limited assistance in this area did not even produce the courtesy of a reply from Max.

Perhaps more and more, my frustration at going alone - something I never wanted to do but the gaps seem to get wider... Perhaps the unwillingness for anyone to even comment on an idea coming from me - it really feels like "your competing with Max so shut the fuck up..."

Perhaps the worst of all is simply that I see Mudcat as a place with people, many of who have time, abilities on offer. IMO if we really worked at what each one could offer, on the understandings of the problems of others and means of solving them, Mudcat rather than still being stuck with rows that are over 2 years old (and not of my creation - my line when I first started here is not the same as it is now - I couldn't understand the protests) could perhaps make a leap forward both in music and in community for ALL.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:05 PM

Paul, none of those things matters, if we can help others.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: 53
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:31 PM

I DON'T DRINK BEER, AND I DON,T EAT GARLIC, AND I DON'T SPIT AT PEOPLE FROM 2 FEET AWAY, SO WHY DON'T YOU JUST BITE OFF. BOB


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: John Routledge
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:34 PM

Art Thieme hits the real big nail on the head.

Regretably the change is so slow that in a short period it is difficult to detect any difference - but difference there is. The longer the process goes on......

John Routledge


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:52 PM

The whole GUEST thing annoys me - I don't mean people who post as GUESTS with a name, like GUEST,Shenandoah did just then, and I am sure that I have never at any time seen anybody criticise that practice. Everyone knows that there can be perfectly sensible reasons why people need or choose to do that. It's the plain GUEST who slams in with some smartarse sneer.

But that doesn't matter too much. It's easy just to ignore them, and to avoid any thread started by them.

More annoying is a recent little trick some pillock or pillocks has taken to doing - posting articles lifted from the press as if they were written by the person doing the posting. In at least one case the one doing it even went so far as to set up a false membership in the name of a writer used in thgis way.

And the main gripe is that people don't use the prefixes, or in some other way make it easier for people who want to to find the music threads in the crowd. I value good discussion threads on all kinds of stuff - but I also like to be able to head straight for the sound of music, and its hard when most of the non-music threads have headings that could easily be song titles, for example.

Having said all that, the Mudcat continues to be magnificant, and the best reason for having a computer that I know.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 09:55 PM

I disagree about the anonymous guest thing, but that is because I've been both a named guest and an anonymous one. I see many quality guest postings here.

Trolls are always obvious, be they coming from anonymous guests, or members who start threads like "were the hijackers gay?" Both should be ignored.

And I second the complaints about the way music discussions have gone around here--and the fine, knowledgeable people with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: ddw
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 10:02 PM

Yea, verily, Art. My time on the M'cat is dropping all the time, partly because of a few people who think it's a moral obligation to post to every thread, even if it's just to say they don't know anything about the topic. Or, even worse, to start one thread after another on subjects that can't possibly be linked to music — the current "price of..." and "Christ's face in..." bunch come to mind.

I know that some of those are started by frustrated members as a way of showing just how stupid they are, but it really just adds to the tedium....

david


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 10:06 PM

I resent the lack of basic manners. Statements such as, "Piss off", or "bite me" just because someone states an opinion which someone else finds irritating.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Melani
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 10:13 PM

When I post from work (which I used to do, back in the days when we had internet access) it comes out as "guest." I am registered on my home computer.

I generally like the silly threads, even when they're not music related. It's the same as sitting around with friends telling jokes in between the tunes.

I don't see any reason for people here to get nasty with each other. I really do think it's perfectly possible to have a civilized discussion about volatile topics and disagree with each other without flipping out.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 10:19 PM

I hate it when people try to make other people not type in caps as though it were a moral issue. Some people just like to and some need to. Personal preference. If you don't like reading them, skip them. I also don't mind emailing people and understand the need sometimes. Everyone's time is limited. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 10:27 PM

My time on the M'cat is dropping all the time, partly because of a few people who think it's a moral obligation to post to every thread, --ddw

53 posts MAYBE 5 fresh thoughts an encouraging word is one thing -–god knows I'd like one from time to time (a good thing to use PM for)-- but posting identical information post after post after post after ...


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: ddw
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 10:44 PM

Gee, John, you got it in one.....

david


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 10:57 PM

I do a lot of searching through old threads looking for songs that need to be harvested for DigiTrad, and I have a few suggestions for how you can make my job easier:

When posting lyrics:

1. Always put the song title in the Subject line of your message. Most of the time, people don't use the subject line at all, but leave it as is (which is often something like "RE: Lyr Req: A gospel song about a bird"). If you're going to post lyrics, please change the subject line to something appropriate (like "Lyr Add: THE GREAT SPECKLED BIRD").

2. Please post only one song per message.

3. Always post song titles in all caps. (I mean the title at the top of the song. You don't need to capitalize the same phrase every time it occurs within the song.) It's also helpful to use all caps for the word CHORUS. It makes these things easier to find. Don't use all caps otherwise. (OK, even I sometimes use all caps to emphasize an occasional word, but please do this sparingly.)

4. If you know the author, put the author's name right after the title, in parentheses. If the song is traditional, please identify the region or ethnic group it comes from, for example (Traditional Irish) or (Traditional African-American slave).

5. Please check your spelling, especially in thread titles, song titles, and artists' names. Posting these things with a misspelled word may make it impossible to find with a search later.

6. But don't let these rules intimidate you. I'd rather have you post lyrics full of errors than not post lyrics at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Justa Picker
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 11:14 PM

I've learned to ignore that which annoys me here.

I've also reached the conclusion that unless you sing no one will give you the time of day regarding your music (with a few exceptions.) Still, for the most part, this site continues to fascinate me as do its inhabitants.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 11:53 PM

Ask Sam is sometimes coherent and mostly drunk


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: marty D
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:29 AM

Incessant long winded and never ending whining about not being listened to at Mudcat central.

Those that don't realize how darn lucky we are to have such a place as Mudcat. Of COURSE people with very specific interests are going to lose interest as a community broadens. That's life, on or off the net. The ones who resort to vicious anonymous flaming (and then accidently sign their own name) probably ARE going to get a 'good riddance'.

I'm not part of any clique or in crowd, I mostly discuss music issues, and I've found a much higher percentage here of friendly, helpful and funny folks than any other site on the net.

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:45 AM

Say goodnight, Gracie.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:59 AM

In the past I added to the varied topical-silly-wordy threads because I figured: "If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em." But these days I just don't have the energy to wade through the swamp to find the one thing worth bothering to catch and cook. That even though I'm starving. As I said, so be it. It has taken a long time and many posts over the dam to get here, but...

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 09:01 AM

...but I find the more knowledgeable music people haven't just left Mudcat because of the negativity. They've pretty much left any and all the music discussion forums.

While you might see the occassional posts here and elsewhere in folk music cyberspace from really knowledgeable folks, I find the people with a deep and wide knowledge of the music don't spend near as much time in these discussion forums as they once did. As Art points out, you just start spending less and less time on-line in discussion forums, and more time getting back into the 3D music communities where you live. Which isn't a bad thing, but those of us who remember the early days of the Internet when you could discuss things with people who really did know what they were talking about from across the country and around the world, find the present day folk cyberspace quite pale by comparison.

Still, I'd love to see a folk music discussion forum that was moderated to keep the riff raff, trolls, flaming and general bullshit out. But folkies seem stupidly stubborn that way--most folks seem to feel it is better to keep all the music discussion forums open to all, rather than provide a high quality discussion forum for people who are truly serious about on-line communications about the music. Which has ended up meaning that folks serious about wanting to talk music have pretty much just given up on the Internet.

And I'm pretty much there myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: John P
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 09:20 AM

What annoys me about Mudcat is the same thing that annoys me elsewhere on the net, and in the real world as well:
1. Rude behavior of almost any kind.
2. People who think everyone wants to listen to their off-topic witticisms, constantly, in every converstion.
3. People who think everyone else should conform to their ideas of what the world should act like. There are going to be non-music threads on Mudcat. If you don't read them, they aren't there for you. It's easy.
4. Musically, people who tell me I'm not doing it right, or that I'm not doing it traditionally, or not using the right instruments, or whatever.
5. People who use anonyminity to say things they would never say if they could be held accountable. I have a lot of public contact in my job, and this happens as much in real life as it does on Mudcat. Give your name or shut up. I have no problem with friendly, helpful anonymous people.

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 09:28 AM

Shenandoah,

John, did you read your contradiction before you hit the send button?

You just said:

Give your name or shut up. I have no problem with friendly, helpful anonymous people.

I too have a problem with the anonymity issue. But my problem with it is, I believe in everyone's right to remain anonymous without being accused of cowardice, and other macho type bullshit which is wholly irrational and wholly emotionally laden with peoples' fears of the unknown.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 09:30 AM

Guess I typed my name in the wrong place on that one above.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,Noam C.
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 09:31 AM

I find it annoying when McGrath of Harlow gets upset that others post articles written by well known commentators. After all, almost everything that McGrath writes is recycled from my published commentaries.

Noam C. Cambridge, MA


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:04 AM

I think this is more of the same. And it must meet a need or people wouldn't continue to utilize this format to vent and complain. Since most of the world is going "politically correct" it becomes increasingly difficult to say what one really thinks without an attorney showing up with lawsuit papers in hand.

For me I'm trying to use the PM format to visit with folks that I have questions of motive or that I lack understanding for what they are saying. The public piece took me a while to figure out. So PMs made the transition for me from public idiot at times to a private one. Eating Crow is difficult enough so PMs allow me to put a bit of salt on the tail feathers before crunching my favorite lunch.

And the threads are certainly plain enough to figure out which are musical in nature and which aren't. Goes back to the theme of don't read what you don't want (I know - been said a jillion times). It took me some time to figure that one out also.

I like this forum, am willing to assist it financially, and firmly believe it is a "Free Speech" area that isn't found elsewhere.

My only issue with it is the music room. And that is not a Mudcat issue per se - it is one of members not participating for a number of reasons. It is rarely utilized and sparsely attended when it is open. I think that is why most of us that play on line don't often look for it as it usually isn't open. I'm going to get involved with that for a couple of weeks and see what comes of it. If it gets used and appears to meet a significant need I'll see about continuing my participation as the one who opens and moderates it for a space in time on Sundays. I know of at least two other music rooms that operate without password as a result of the Snug not being available for new musicians.

So the bottom line for me is - if it isn't what you want - then ignore it or become part of the solution. I'm certainly moving closer to Jon Freeman's camp of separating the threads and in the interest of space removing those that have no bearing on music after they have dropped from a couple of days of no postings. Or simply putting in a, what is it, a thing that would separate the threads based on prefix. And maybe there is something already that does that - I'm still figuring out what all is available here. Another thought is if we are going to need to begin regular financial contributions to support the Cat then does this becomes a public entity and not a private one? Do the financial supporters then have more of a say about how they want this forum to change and the direction it will have for the future. And if so cost will begin to factor into what is retained and what is no longer available.

That's my $00.02 worth.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:21 AM

General interest question for Joe Offer, if he's not getting his back rubbed or whatever.

If you monitor the forum, do you actually read every post? And if so, might I ask how many times you have censored an entire thread... I think I recall you doing it once about six months ago, in a case where someone was causing true malicious offence.

Eegards - Ian B


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:55 AM

Norton, here is a quick off the top of my head one.

Ask that the BS prefix was used. There will always be a slight bit of a grey area but it should work most of the time.

In the membership, add a checkbox to indicate the preference to exclude BS threads and make the change to the table...

For the main forum page, there is likely to be some SQL going something along the lines of "SELECT * FROM THREADS" (it will be a bit more complicated than that). The main forum page checks the member table (it must do to show your user name in the post box) for logged on members. Just do something like

If Member wants BS then
SQL=SELECT * FROM THREADS
else
SQL=SELECT * FROM THREADS WHERE TITLE NOT LIKE %BS:%

and use the SQL - in the same normal page - the only difference is the records returned - one excludes BS.

Maybe there are complications I am not aware of but my guess is that, for under 2 hrs programming we would have a main page that automatically filters for those members who don't like BS.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,Spot (at the kennels)
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:12 PM

I haven't had time to read all this thread but.............Nope I can't do it...I just wouldn't dare :-)

Spot


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:22 PM

Not much, anymore. I had to stop caring about Mudcat to get to that place, though. Now, I browse the threads when I have time & rarely post to any. People can rant, rave, & beat their heads against the wall, but Mudcat ain't likely to change. If you want to be less annoyed, better change your own attitude. Changing oneself is more likely to work than trying to change others.

best,

bbc


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 12:25 PM

Amen to that bbc.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:05 PM

Howdy ... Art's comments spoke well to my biggest issue. The more flame wars, BAD LANGUAGE, and long non-music diatribes happen, the less I'm willing to "plow through the swamp." Mudcat has made a real believer of me: not for just the resource of folk music information, but also the human contact with real live folksingers with real life experiences ... some of who I've known, or known of, for many years. I would hate to lose it. So, how do we control jerks? Good question, and I don't have a good answer. Another, gentle, thought. Is there a way to install a "spellcheck" to monitor my postings? MAX ... you are wonnuerful! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:18 PM

Mudcat may have its faults, but they are more than offset by the postings from such as GUEST Shenandoah.

Unfailingly bright, cheerful, light-hearted and as often as not extremely humorous, I always feel better after I have read one of GUEST Shenandoah's posts than I did before.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: AliUK
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 01:56 PM

I haven't read most of this post but....
Well this is a chesnut that's been knocking about the 'cat a few times under different guises. I was delightfully suprised when I took one of my abscences from the Mudcat and came back to discover the use of BS etc. to indicate the kind of thread that was being used. I felt that this would satisfy everybody here and be able to make a dash to what looks interesting.
moving on to Art's observations, I would agree with him to a certain extent. I often don't post to music threads or lyrics threads, though I have done occasionly over the years, because I may sing 'em but I don't really have much knowledge about the somgs I sing. I read the threads if it is a song that I sing or know or plan to sing because this is something that interests me. I tend more to contrbute to the BS threads because; 1 - They amuse me, or move me, or any number of reasons, and 2 - see explanation above. If it weren't for the BS threads, many people wouldn't have shared many wonderful things ( a recent thread springs immediately to mind with Mark Cohen's thread about his lost love, and that would be sad. I am in the 'Cat because it is a forum of people that have similar tastes to mine, they're not all the same, but then it would be a boring world if they were. And I find that this is the function of this forum, I think I've had my say now.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:01 PM

Spellchecking - well, that's something I know about, because the way I type and proofread get's pretty close to encryption at times.

But what has made an amazing difference is a little free program called HotLingo. I got it off a free disk with a magazine. The great thing is it lets spellcheck the posts you write, and other things, such a forms you fill in online.

Here's a link to a page with a bit about it. And if you click on this - a href="http://www.hotlingo.com">http://www.hotlingo.comyou'll get a free download. Worth every penny and a lot more.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:03 PM

bbc receives my first "Hero of the Day" award for the New Year.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 02:04 PM

Something went wrong there. Here goes again.

The page with the stuff about HotLingo is here And that's got the link to the free download anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: 53
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 06:46 PM

JOHN HARDLY, YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN TUFF, I'LL POST WHEN EVER IWANT TO IF YOU DON'T LIKE READING THEM THEN DON'T. BOB are you the posting king of mudcat or just a jerk.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 07:51 PM

BOB you'll get on with people a lot better on the internet if you learn some 'netiquette'GUEST

(& yes I WAS being ironic with the way I wrote that post)


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: 53
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:02 PM

please post your name please. BOB


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:10 PM

what annoys me is the backbiting that goes on here sometimes...like over the paltalk thing last spring...or the hearme thing and various other spats....


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:22 PM

I think I have come up with the one thing that bothers me more than anything else.......Threads like these.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:36 PM

Such a long list for such a small, warm, friendly place.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 09:51 PM

The world is usually a warm and a friendly place, but if I was to go back and take note of all the times people have given me the finger from within the safety of their speeding cars I'm sure it would be more than the number of posts in this thread and several others cmbined. Yes, from the safety of these posts we can do whatever and not care a whit about how it might look and/or feel to others. That's why, I suspect, I'll not be joining in a ton in the future.

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:23 PM

1. Helpful people

2. Tons of songs

3. The chance to discuss the songs

4. Clickable tunes

5. Photos to recognize people out at events

6. People coming from 4-9 hours away for a Mudcat Gathering

7. Challenging thinkers

8. People to write new songs with

9. People to learn old songs from

10. Free speech

And that's just the stuff bugging me today!

God, I don't know how I stand it!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:37 PM

To Art ... You know Art, you and I have agreed a lot lately. We've messaged a couple of times off line. We are of similiar vintage, tho I am older. I agree with your last posting 100%. I think the way that I'm going to handle the idiots is like this: I'll continue to start the occasional thread, as I just did, but I'll watch the postings VERY closly. I well know the names of the jerks that turn me off. When they post, I'm outa' there. If it reaches the point that these jerks have no one else to jerk but themselves, well then they deserve themselves ... I always know how to reach quality people like yourself. CHEERS, Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:45 PM

I figure most of the problems people have with Mudcat come from a belief that we can make things go the way we want around here. When things don't go according to our vision, we get frustrated and pissed off. Trying to direct what other folks do or say here, though, is a bit like herding cats, or maybe more like trying to change the path of a river. We want folks to post less, or more, or say what we think they should say, or stick to the topic, or read the thread, or be nicer, or get less pissed off when other people aren't nice, or not act like sociopaths, or not look for excuses to be offended... The river, and Mudcat, just continues on its merry way, and takes little notice of us, and we stand by its banks, livid with rage. It ain't worth it.

It's not that we can't sometimes get people to understand our point of view, it's that we can't conrol how anyone but ourselves behaves here.

Bbc said she had to learn to stop caring about Mudcat. I never did stop. I had to learn to stop caring about what I thought Mudcat SHOULD be, and find what was good in what it IS.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: John P
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:47 PM

Guest Shenandoah,
I think you must have misunderstood what I was saying. If you look at my post again, you'll see that I said I was bothered by "People who use anonyminity to say things they would never say if they could be held accountable. . . . Give your name or shut up." When I said I have no problem with helpful and friendly anonymous people I was indicating that the anonyminity is not the problem for me, but rather people who use it to be rude without having to face the consequences of their actions. I readily admit to having a hot spot about anonymous posters who do a lot of flaming, having spent some years being being stalked around the newsgroups by a crazy person who never gave a name. Also, this thread is about what bothers us; listing my peeves doesn't mean I really expect the world to change to suit me. See my peeve #3.

I don't much care to be accused of being a macho bullshitter, of being irrational, or of being afraid of the unknown. Perhaps you should take the time to find out what a person is about before you start firing off insults. And perhaps you should have read my post a second time before going public with such an obvious and strongly worded misunderstanding. Flaming is not a good way to achieve a meeting of minds.

I enjoyed and agreed with all your other posts on this thread, by the way.

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: 53
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 12:17 AM

nothing really, everybody who has a name seems to be great, its the guest who post with no name are the trouble makers. BOB


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 10:12 AM

John, I didn't exactly accuse you personally "of being a macho bullshitter, of being irrational, or of being afraid of the unknown" now did I? Reread my post again--there is no personal attack against you. But if the shoe fits, well...

I feel there is a very strong undercurrent of machismo and intimidation towards guests here, which is "justified" by those who engage in it by playing the "anonymous = evil" card. You weren't exactly using polite, friendly, helpful language yourself when you said "Give your name or shut up" which is what I reacted to as just more of the same guest bashing we've already seen in this thread, and in every thread where this subject rears its ugly head.

I agree with your points about Mudcat really being a reflection of the wider world. I don't treat strangers the way they are treated in this forum. I trust my gut instincts about them first, which is, of course, hard to do on-line. But I would never, ever just assume they are asswholes (!) just because I don't know who they are. I can't think of a more negative attitude to go through life with. Especially when there is no shortage of member asswholes in Mudcat aweady. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: mack/misophist
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 10:35 AM

Anonymity: May I say a word? I'm retired, back in college studying computer science. Every one of my teachers who has an opinion on the subject promotes anonymity on the internet. There are some truly odd people out there and you don't want to attract their attention. A technically savvy person can sometimes track you down and make mincemeat of your privacy. Even in a nice friendly place like this, it'e wise to keep the internet as much at arms length as possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 10:54 AM

bbc is of course right that the answer is not to care.

I would take issue with Jeri's "should be" however as I am not convinced that there is anyone who is believes there is a single right or wrong.

There is however a belief in what the forum could be and it remains my belief that Mudcat falls short in this department. My view is that Mudcat evolved in unexpected and exciting ways which involved an increasing community element. These changes did have an effect on several older members and from the very first time I looked here there were rows and comments about people dropping out. Comments in this thread seem to back up the fact that the dropping out continues because of content.

Where I seem to fundamentally seem to differ with many of the others like me who contribute to BS is I can see the other side and rather than take the "if you don't like how it is now leave" attitude, I try to think of ways of making life more bearable for all and I firmly believe that there are ways.

A major reason for me starting the Annexe was to cater for repetitive threads such as healing threads (not that it's been used much for that) that provoked rows here. The rows were not caused by me, in fact a common complainer was Joe Offer who didn't want the volume. I try to find space, suggest alternative solutions, etc. in this case, even provided one. Why - basically because Mudcat was either unable or unwilling to evolve to meet the need.

I'm pretty sure I know the end course for me by now which will be leaving to good riddance - a well warn path but I may well end up going alone on music and try to create a place for people who like to talk music without BS but does have a comminity for those that want. I don't know if it will get any support and I am at a dissadvantage both in finances and in not having a big song database but on the other hand, I do have creativity and imagination together with the ability to react quickly to changing or growing needs on my side.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 03:09 PM

Apart from a few oddballs like me, pretty well everyone here is anonymous, in the sense that they don't post with their actual face to face names, and most of the time they don't have profiles or photos on the Mudcat. And there is no problem or complaint by anyone about that, and there never has been and there never should be.

The stuff about GUESTs isn't about anonymity as such, it's about people who are unwilling to join in a conversation, but just want to throw in their contributions like stink-bombs. If a stranger joins in a conversation that's one thing. But if they shouted out interruptions from behind a curtain it'd be something different. The medium is the message, and the medium here feels like it's meant to be insulting. And if it's not meant to be insulting, noone has ever explained why it's done.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 04:14 PM

Is that Jon "I don't want to compete with Mudcat" Freeman there? Or has someone taken over his cookies?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 04:33 PM

Susan no one has taken over my cookies, I don't want to compete with Mudcat and in fact have done my best to the ensure that the Annexe uses fairly tight categories so as not to interfere with the sponatnious general chat that occurrs in Mudcat. I demonstrated concern over one thread which was craft but was instrument related as I felt it was encroaching on Mudcat territory. If I'd have wanted to compete, I would have started out that way.

Having said that, I find myself in a situation in this forum where I can tell the truth about something and watch lies being believed. Can try to offer constructive suggestions and see them viewed either with complete negativity or as "competetion" to Mudcat. I mean I am being treated over here as if I am trying to do all the things I didn't want to do. I am coming more and more to the point where I feel I might as well just go ahead and have done with it.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 05:35 PM

Shenendoah said "I find the people with a deep and wide knowledge of the music don't spend near as much time in these discussion forums as they once did."

As someone who has posted many answers to technical musical questions, I have a little insight in to why that is so--simply enough--it is a lot work to keep providing serious, in-depth answers to musical questions that people have--

When someone has a question or problem, you have to spend time figuring out what it really is, and then you have to sit down and write an answer that is clear, complete, and understandable. You have to be careful not to confuse the issue more, and, you have to be ready to deal with the response, which can be anything from a thank you to another question, to an insult, or to no reply at all--

You could literally write a music textbook in the process of responding to all the questions that come up here, and after a while, the novelty wears off, and you gravitate toward posting only when no one else does, or where the discussion is going in the wrong direction, or when it is something that is really important--

It is not that you care any less, or that you are fed up with flames, or that you feel like you are casting your pearls to swine, it is just that it is a lot of work, and you tend to pick an choose the places that you invest your energy--


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 05:45 PM

Well Jon, I think you are taking it all a little too seriously and personally, and I say that as your friend. No one I now feels that strongly about anything you have done, or you, although some of us do worry abvout how you are doing because you have shared, pretty openly, where your struggles lie. And the list of annoyances about Mudcat is pretty much the same as it seems it's always been. And yet it is still heavily used, with songs being added all the time and work to make it more organized progressing. Yeah, it is evolving. Maybe not the way you envisoned-- probably no the way anyone envisioned. It's more complex than we can envision accurately anyhow. But something that is evolving sure ain't dead.

I'm putting my money on Mudcat to stay the course and keep evolving. And I am content to know that anyone's single voice is not what will influence it. That leaves me free to say how I think it ought to be and then relax, knowing wise hearts will take ALL the input and do what is possible with it.

Of course whatever you will do is up to you, make no mistake that I think otherwise. But I would like to have thought that the man of integrity, who assured folks he had no desire to compete with Mudcat, is still my friend Jon.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 07:14 PM

M.Ted,

I think those are very astute observations on your part -- about it being just plain ol' hard work to post worthwhile information and contributions. I've also seen you lift more than your share of the instructional weight. bravo!

I thought about the question of diminishing posts/posters/posting about interesting folk-related info -- especially in history and lore.

At the inception, talking about the lore, every story was new --at least to this site. History being what it is by nature, a done deal, it is a finite source for conversation content.

Sure, there's still tons of stuff that's never been discussed here (I'm speaking theoretically, as I don't personally know of whole lots more folk history or I'd a-posted it by now), but the truth is --the strip mining is over and it's just lots tougher to find a new vein to mine.

Just as you said about the music/theory information threads, even the folk lore/history threads are just harder work and research. Meaningful answers require meaningful research.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 07:30 PM

It's true....Lots of detail things take time and there is truth in diminishing returns. Some get very offended when a question is answered with an old thread, but when the answer and a lot more is IN the old thread, why not? Ted has posted some theory info that is a great resource so why not link it with a few additional comments?

BTW, Stewie just ran across and posted an Old Timey Music site that is a killer! Yeah, the joint still evolves, but new topics are harder to come by because there is so much info already on the threads if we can learn and teach others to use it. I can't wait to answer some requests with the site that Stewie just linked........Ya' know, it occurs to me too that we also have a lot of threads like this one we could link when the subject comes up. Maybe we could put them all together for those who want to complain and all into a "Bitch, Piss, and Moan, Permathread."

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 07:50 PM

"I'm putting my money on Mudcat to stay the course and keep evolving." So am I Susan but the current course has been followed for over 2 years with the same effect...

My well being: in honestey, I am much better than I have been in 2 or 3 years with the need for a drink before doing anything decreasing and even being eliminated in some areas.

"The same old song and each time with more added" is perhaps a worry but that is simply is a factor of trying to get a reasonable response from people when ideas are given and I guess it gets more and more annoying each time round and I tend to react more strongly.

I of course know I should have got out when I tried to last year. I tried to leave aimably then but got back in. For the record, the final straws for me then where one getting involved (not for the first time) in trying to stop a security issue that I had warned about hitting the forum. It came very close as did another one that you know about Susan. I was right, but stupidly in something that I do regret, let those out. I am now accused of dictating how security should be here, demonstrating live hacks in threads and even setting terms of how these errors must be fixed and have read replies from based on lies.

The other annoyance and the real final straw for me when I decided to quit was the healing thread rows the PM one and the healing one stemmed from the same source as it was a side issue in the same row. My final straw was Joe putting in his opinion as a view (a view that I have to say that given Mudcat limitations, I agree with) in the FAQ and then deleleting a counter opinion from Mousthief which produced more argument. If there ever was an attempt to control, that surely was one. So I tried to be anti-control but, when I came back, I tried to offer a solution - yet now, at least according to people like Marty, I am setting terms when all I did was try to cater for what MC could't or wouldn't.

I guess while I'm on, I will enter my final gripe which is one of the talk of money and a great job. It is certainly true to say that money is important and that Max provides a service that is expensive to run and it is also true to suggest that people with skills are needed but in a community like this, such skills are avialible and the real question revolves around the dedication of people to donate thier services rather than an issue of cost.

Perhaps in that area, my biggest question would be this: How is it that Mudcat can introduce a new "Mudcat Market thing" in a matter of days but fail to introduce changes that have been promised for over 6 months? Is it a matter of where interest lies or where money is? In reality, it probably is the "crisis factor" but it does show what can be done when there is a real need. Perhaps, by my way of thinking, it shows what could be done if there was real dedication and better attempts at utilising resources.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 08:01 PM

Well for what my 2 pence worth is.

The basic theme is folk music.

There are deviations from that theme, most of good humour, some serious.

Yes I've made contrbutions that have not been acepted in the spirit that they were intended - and yes I've made posts which on reflection perhaps I should not have made.

And when, with my limited knowledge, I think I can comtribute to a serious music thread I do so. And I try very hard not to enjoin in the Flamers Game, no matter how great the temptation. This is one reason why I have not previously posted on this thread.

But you know, it don't take a geniuos to realise the direction a thread is going too after you read the first few posts.

If you wish to participate in the Mudcat you have to take the rough with the smooth, and as they say in the Navy " If you can't take a joke, you should not have joined !" ( Traditionally said whilst clinging to a Carley Float = Cork life raft).

I would be a lot happier if Anon. Guest(s) were contributing to the save the Mudcat appeal - but then if they are not prepared to give their names - why should we and Max expext their money.

I suspect the Cat is bigger than the occasional spat - After all we are supposed to be adults - or should we confine the music to "Jack and Jill" and the like.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Max
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 08:28 PM

We've been toiling with the issue of topic here for a while. We are a folk/blues/traditional/historical/folklore Web site, but to try to control it manually is an endless if not impossible task. I keep hearing the members-only recommendation, but am not comfortable with that. The fact that long-time core members, who seem to have the most to offer us, are visiting less often bothers me even more.

Can't help to take things for granted, but as far as specific-topic Forums, I'd say we're among the best. And even more importantly, we maintain a significant desire to continue to improve. The new version of Mudcat is in operation to a select few volunteers for testing and development. It's pretty damn cool if you ask me. Anyhow, it includes some advanced filtering technology that should make the 1%ers more satisfied with the content without the other 99 even noticing. I'd be surprised if it takes more than 2 months to finish at this point, though one of our important helpers is going on a honeymoon for a stint.

Without getting on a rant here, just trust that we are very aware of these issues, and we choose to deal with them in technological ways rather than with rules or censorship. You all have your own reasons for being here, and we all have our reasons for creating this Web site and this database. Mine is to collect data that may not otherwise be collected and to facilitate a community of people who have similar interests. (Emphasis on the Period at the end of that sentence)


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 08:44 PM

Well said Max. My hat's off to you ... and most of my hair also. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 08:52 PM

Max (ignoring the period),

Even I, probably one of the biggest critics here would not argue against you being one of the best. The matter to me seems more of further evolution...

I wish the advanced filtering project well and hope that it really will produce your aims.

I'm glad you posted this and as unlikely as it may seem, I wish you well.

Good luck and good wishes,

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 09:50 PM

Jon, the Mudcat Market is being done by Mudcatters, not by Mudcat. All Mudcat did to accommodate it was add a link to it in Quicklinks. It's an example of the unpredictable positivity that happens here when an idea is really the right one for Mudcatters-- it gets discussed briefly and then someone with a good approach runs with it and people find it workabkle too, so they get into it. Organic chaos.... evolution. Your Annexe has been the same way. I hope it continues to be-- and that more people use it, for non-music stuff. I have recommended it often, behind the scenes, for that. And the Annexe and your work on it ARE appreciated.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Melani
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 10:32 PM

I love Mudcat the way it is now, even when people occasionally act like jerks. One of the people I work with in 3-D life acted like a jerk for a whole week, but then she got over it and we're friends again. That's what happens.

As for old-timers vanishing, people's lives change, and sometimes they no longer spend hours on line, or they develop interests in different sites, or whatever.It doesn't always mean they got disgusted and left.

I first posted here as a guest, and then got sucked in by the discussions and responses. If an anonymous guest posts something offensive, I don't have to read it. There's plenty of music-related and other stuff to keep me busy here. I like the fact that anybody can post easily, whether registered or not; my daughter just asked me to read an article on a forum she frequents, and when I hit the button for "comment on this article" I couldn't figure out how to make a comment. The ease of discourse here is what keeps the new blood coming in, and that's what makes evolution happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 11:55 PM

It was my thread (asking about people who like building instruments) in Jon's Annexe, that quickly resulted in my receiving two PMs from him questioning their 'appropriateness'. I felt there might be a chance to have a nice discussion without the constant "me toos", and "I like Fender!" comments that seem to be a part of current Mudcat. I gave it an honest shot, but it's hard to be enthusiastic when hairs are split that quickly after arrival. Discussion of Hymns apparently was fine. No problem. I just left without making a fuss. For some folks it seems like a perfect fit, for others it obviously wouldn't be.

There's a great deal of Music AND good discussion back here at Mudcat...along with the expected distractions. We can't be all things to all people. (and I DON'T wan't to discuss it in PMs...I'm too busy)

To me, Mudcat is not about negativity and complaining, or assinine threads, and flaming folklorists, it's about people like STEWIE and "pot of Gold" threads like this:
click

That's why I stay.

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 12:14 AM

Wal, I hear ya. The only thing about the Mudcat that annoys me is the enthusiasm some people seem to cultivate in themselves for being annoyed.

I appreciate the motivation to improve, but I believe there is a better tenor that can be placed on it. Carping about it is kinda ungracious considering that it is a free service. If you're making suggestions because you really care about what the Mudcat could become, I don't see much merit in getting steamed up!! Unless you really enjoy being steamed up as a sorta pastimne.

Chacun a son mauvais gout, as the saying goes. It is not only true that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar....it is also true that ya tend to drive flies away with vinegar.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 12:24 AM

Hi Amos. You said: "Unless you really enjoy being steamed up as a sorta pastime." Took the woids right outta my mouth!

You also said:"Chacun a son mauvais gout" To those who weren't born in Quebec, I'll translate: "An ill goat in every pot". Words to live by!

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Hilary
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 08:14 AM

The advanced filtering sounds a wonderful idea.

Though I think the main focus should be music, I would hate to lose the BS threads.

But the storage capacity issue mentioned above does strike me as important, I don't enough about exactly how the 'cat is structured - can BS threads be simply not archived, or selectively archived ??? More work than is feasible I guess, & maybe heading towards censorship ???

Suggestions for developments (& whinges) aside, it's still an amazing place.

H


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 08:46 AM

On storage considerations-- there is one forum that deep archives the older threads, which can be found through some sort of search and can be resurrected back into current-storage till they get old again. I dunno how they do it technically. But they aren't trying to store songs in their threads, either, and it would seem silly to have to apply for refreshing a thread just to get a song out of it.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:03 AM

Rick, given that there were also a lot of complaints over Christianity here - seem to remember Praise getting a lot of stick - don't you? - and I started a Christian Fellowship Forum again to try to cater for a need, it would be rather difficult for me to argue against hymns being discussed in a Christian forum.

I guess you could argue that discussing instrument making in a craft forum was splitting hairs but it is difficult to know where to draw the line - you might be aware that instrument related threads are typically my favourites and I would have loved to have had the thread there. Perhaps my move which I seem to remember was to suggest that thread continued but not to start others was the wrong one - I don't know.

What I do know is:

1: it is not me that wants to be restrictive - my problem has been trying to make it absolutely clear that I am trying to run as an addional facility rather than competition to Mudcat and that line is very hard to draw.

2: The buck stops with me and any stick regarding having "competitive" threads comes to me.

3. The Annexe is not my vision of a forum - it is my vision of trying to provide solutions to problems that I would like to think are temporary (perhaps this advanced filter project will make it easier for other needs to be accomodated in Mudcat) and that what the Annexe attempts to provide is effectively catered for by Mudcat itself.

I'm sorry if it caused you offence. Check out my FAQ I have tried to be as honest, open and clear about the Annexe as I can there.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:08 AM

Sorry, my FAQ is here

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:10 AM

I really need to slow down with my links. Sorry about this! Try this one

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:32 AM

I'll just offer my opinion on storage as it has cropped up again and Norton's statement where he indicated some degree of agreement with me did not really reflect my thoughts.

I very much doubt that storage is a problem on the system as it is hosted by Max. To the best of my knowledge he has a big database server which I would guess is capable of holding several gigabytes.

I'd guess there could be questions over preformance but again, as far as I know, Max is running SQL server which is very powerful.

Where I would have doubts (and this is a grey area) over storing old threads is that as time goes on, under the current system, there will become more and more BS to wade through when trying to search for information from old music related threads. Only time will tell as to whether it really will become a problem and there is certainly a possibility that the advanced filtering Max mentioned would ease these worries.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:57 AM

But if you start filtering BS from the archive, many of the Mudcat regular's posting history here will cease to exist!


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 10:46 AM

The filter doesn't remove anything from the database. It removes threads from the view of a person using the filter. It's a matter of individual choice.

In all this business about "what annoys me about Mudcat, people are talking mostly about what other people do and say here, not Mudcat itself. If Max were to use his authority to limit what was said or done here, would there be any fewer pissed off people? I think there would be more.

It still comes down to people being frustrated and angry when their view of the best possible Mudcat (or more like the behavior of the contributors) doesn't match reality. Maybe it's just me, but I find it easier to be here somewhat free from expectations than change reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 11:40 AM

Sorry Jon. I was overly testy last night. It's no big deal and I apologize. Shoulda had my bran flakes first!

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 11:41 AM

I agree with you, Jeri.

Also, it might help if use of a prefix were mandatory, even if it is a GENERAL INQUIRY. There are a LOT of threads right now which do not have the BS distinction and they decidedly NOT about music.

Max has said before that storage is no problem.

Jon, I like the Annexe very much and really appreciate it. I do not see it as any kind of competition to the Mudcat. I also like your prelim design for a music forum, which, again, I do not see as a competition thing.

Artdarlin'....if we could get all of the one like you who have stopped coming by, to come by in a concerted effort and post MORE on music, I think you would find it a welcome change. Most of us cannot post with anywhere near the knowledge and scholarship that you, Deckman, Don Firth, Sandy Paton, Hamilton, Jean Ritchie and others are capable of; most of us would LOVE to hear more. Now, if you're saving it for that memoir and don't want to spoil the publication, I can understand being a bit quiet.*BG* Anyway, we'd love to ehar more and I am sure would show the appreciation we usually do when we read something so interesting and significant as what some of you have posted.

I wasn't going to post to this thread. Then, I was just going to post links ot all of the ones like it, from the past, for Spaw's suggested Bitch, Piss, and Moan Permathread, but I think some important things have been discussed. I would like to see the same people who've posted to this one, also post a few things that they are happy about with the Mudcat, too.

In general, I agree with Jeri's earlier post, too about loving Mudcat for what it is, not what I think it should be.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 12:02 PM

Happy about kat, if you really want happy, I'll spell it out and give you a delighted about: That is Max's "Anyhow, it includes some advanced filtering technology that should make the 1%ers more satisfied with the content without the other 99 even noticing".

Whether it really proves to be a solution in terms of making the 1%ers more satisfied or whether complaints continue for other reasons is another matter but what I do see is a very positive attempt to address what I belive is a key issue within Mudcat.

For the first time in a while, I will go as far as to say I am optimistic about Mudcat!

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS:What a great link!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 02:22 PM

That link rick gave makes this whole thread worthwhile. Here it is again for those who skipped past it.

There was a story in the paper the other day that said that they've discovered that when you really get into it the whole universe is really a sort of turquoise - pistacchio I think is the name of the shade they decided on. I don't really like that colour at all. But on the whole I think the universe is good enough to put up with stuff like that. That goes for the Mudcta as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: mack/misophist
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 06:29 PM

This may be irrelevant but I think it deserves a mention. Everything on the internet is owned by someone. Somebody owns this forum and has an idea of what they want it to be. If someone else disagrees... tough luck. The only recourse is persuasion. As for unnecessary postings, there will always be newbies. Everywhere you go. Deal with it. I'm one myself. I'm trying to learn but it doesn't happen instantly.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 08:06 PM

That link, and this site for Old-Time tunes to learn and play along with are two of the finest reasons I stick with the 'Cat. I even (finally) got an answer to my puzzling tech question, and along the way got more belly laughs than I would ever have gotten if I'd asked the question on a tech forum. And yes, we have had some knowledgeable people leave. And we've had some knowledgeable people show up, too. So? So I'm willing to put up with the bullshit. I'm even willing to put up with 'Spaw.

I don't expect Mudcat to change to suit me, I just expect to keep learning new stuff and meeting new people and having fun with old people (!) and finding new things to amaze me and delight me and bore me and annoy me but mostly to enjoy. When I used to hang out at the Seattle Song Circle, we didn't just sing songs and talk about folk music, we also shared experiences and told jokes and hung out. Sure, there were some people there who I didn't like all that much (you know who you are....), but most of the people there I did like, and overall it was a good experience, and one I miss very much...which is why I appreciate the Mudcat so much.

But.....do you want to know what REALLY annoys me about the Mudcat? What has me so damned pissed off I'm ready to chuck the whole thing and go hang out at Oprah's book club or the frozen green bean recipe forum? It's that CAROLC GOT A BIRTHDAY THREAD AND I DIDN'T!!!

Aloha,
Mark (Guess next time I'll be smarter and won't have my birthday on Joe Offer's wedding day!)


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 08:40 PM

I suspect I'm just lurking more and enjoying it less. No offense meant. Too much goin' down in my private life these days. Love to all.

art


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 10:53 PM

Wow! Thanks Rick, for sharing that site!!! I missed it whenever and wherever Stewie posted it, but I'm sure glad to find it now!! May even have to dust off the old fiddle!! KT


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 01:30 AM

I echo the thanks, Rick. I've been over there just playing one tune/song after another. It's great. Who is honkingduck? Great site, great service.

Eb


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 12:59 AM

.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 10:17 AM

OK, this annoys me. People who make requests for lyrics, but don't use punctuation, so they run together the artist's name, the album name, the song title, and maybe some lyrics and other verbiage so you can't sort them out!
    id like the lyrics to blue balls down the hill softly under the mistletoe is how it began I think it was their first album
AARGH!


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 10:53 AM

LOL...good example, Jim!


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:17 AM

Oh wow. This is what I get for not paying attention. Oh, Mark, sweety. You just gotta learn how to play it right. These things don't just happen, you know. You have to work it. I'll teach you some of my stuff if you want. Don't feel bad, I think you're doing really well. Just take a moment to stop and smell the plumeria, and I know you'll feel much better.


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Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 02:13 PM

What else annoys me about Mudcat: threads that run well over 100 posts, without a link to a new thread.

So here, at post #118, is the link to part 2 of this discussion: BS: What annoys me about Mudcat PART 2


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 1 August 8:44 PM EDT

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