Help: Digitrad and Forum Search

Subject: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: GUEST,Simple Simon
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 10:19 AM

The help page is simply a copy of the Cold Fushion one

I don't understand it.

Would anyone be so kind as to explain, in English, how to search effectively?

Thank you

Simon

Subject: RE: Help: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: Mark Clark
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 11:14 AM

Simple, Check out the Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide thread at the top of the thread list. You should find a lot of help on searching for things.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 03:48 PM

I found that you can use google to search the forum, you go to the advanced search type in what you are looking for plus any key words and in the search domain box type in mudcat.org
You can narrow results down

Subject: Answer: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 04:04 PM

As I said in the FAQ, it's best not to search for songs by title - titles can be very misleading. Try searching for a distinctive phrase from a song, something that's not likely to have alternate words or spellings. In the Digitrad and Forum Search, you just type the phrase and hit the "Go" button. in the blue search box, enclose the distinctive phrase [in square brackets]. You'll find easy search instructions in the FAQ. The "help" button next to the search box gives instructions for advanced searching - if you can't understand it, you're probably not at the lever where you're ready to do advanced searches.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid our search engine may not work exactly the way your favorite search engine works. We probably can't afford to license your favorite search engine, so we have to make do with what we have - and learn how to use it. I do realize there there is always room for improvement - we are exploring a new search engine today, and it looks promising.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 09:46 PM

Joe, the help page opens with

"When you search a Verity collection, you use the CFSEARCH tag in a Cold Fusion application page. Use the CRITERIA attribute to specify the query expression you want to pass to the search engine."

This is nothing to do with level of understanding of Advanced searching, this is instruction for a Cold Fusion programmer using Verity and is certainly not written with an end user of a search application in mind.

Maybe swapping the help link in question for a link to the relevant section in the FAQ (which IMO should cover the use of AND, NOT, OR, etc) would be a good plan.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 10:06 PM

Check the Search help page (click) again. On the side of the window, you will find a bar, with arrows that point up and down. If you move the bar down, you can read more than the first paragraph of the search help page. If you actually read what is on the page, you will find all sorts of tips on searching.
If you cannot read, I cannot help you.
I'm really getting tired of this.
However, I will admit that there is a better search help instruction page available. It's basically the same page, but with the stuff about the "Verity" search engine deleted. I'll see if we can get it posted.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 10:16 PM

Joe, I have read and REPEAT that is not written for the end user of a search application. The passing of CRITERIA for example is done by Max.

Given that "CRITERIA" is a search string, there is of course information that will be useful for a USER but that document is NOT a user document.

If you cannot understand that, I can not help you!!!

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 10:24 PM

Jon, the instructions are for advanced searching. If you try them, I think you'll find they may help. The Digitrad and Forum Search is set up to be simple and dummy-proof. No need for instructions. You enter words, and the search engine comes up with pretty good results. If you want better results, you may actually have to think - and spend some time reading instructions. I changed my message above a bit. There is an edited version of the "search help" page that's a bit clearer, but it's more-or-less the same as what's available. I'll see if we can get the edited version posted.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 10:25 PM

Sorry Joe, I did not read that time, I took offence at the "I can not read" bit and did not read your final paragraph.

I see you are woprking on another - and apologise.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 10:34 PM

Oh and Joe, although there do seem to be a couple of wierd things (e.g. the missing entries, Wolfgang has mentioned), I like the super search and do use some "advanced features" (most programmers, even dabblers like me are familiar with boolean logic as it is an essential tool).

Overal, the search capabilites themselves have never been a complaint of mine within Mudcat, on the contary, MC offers far more power in that department than I can think of on any other site I visit (and that includes my "Annexe").

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 10:35 PM

Well, I'm getting tired of the carping, and it has been coming heavy all week. Jeff has been working very hard to bring about new stuff, and I've been testing it and giving feedback.
Somebody decided this week was a good time to flame the Digital Tradition. Dick Greenhaus came up with a lengthy explanation here (click), and I hope that shuts the bastards up for a while. It really gets frustrating, when you work your butt off to keep improving things, and it's never good enough.
Mudcat and the Digital Tradition will always be a work in progress. There will always be things we can do better. I wish people could be nice about their suggestions. All of these anonymous potshots are getting me mad.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 10:55 PM

Let's chill, guys, OK? Joe, I think your post would have been more effective if you limited it to the last two sentences. The page in question is unfriendly technobabble, no matter how much of it you read.

Joe, there's no question you've done an outstanding and generally under-recognized job in starting and maintaining the FAQ threads (as well as troubleshooting the Forum and harvesting songs for the DT), and I understand you get tired of people complaining. But sometimes the complaints are justified. I agree with Jon that that page doesn't belong as the target of a link that's supposed to help people who want to find a song they like.

This is a rich and complex site, and one whose dedication to accessibility and flexibility tends to make it difficult to use at times, even for an experienced user. (square brackets? curly brackets? filter?) If Max were more autocratic and rigid, there wouldn't be nearly as many questions...and it wouldn't be nearly as much fun. I don't think anyone is ever going to come up with an instructional page that is both simple and complete.

Having said that, it might be worth trying to come up with a very simple single page of instructions, to answer three basic questions: How do I find a song? How do I post a message? How do I add a song?

Now I fully realize that other people will have their own list of "three basic questions", and pretty soon you'll end up with....the FAQ PermaThread! But I still think it's worth working on a "Mudcat Primer" of some sort. ("First visit to the Mudcat Cafe? Click here for the Mudcat Primer.") Just a thought.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Digitrad and Forum Search
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 05:08 AM

We have the edited Search help page up, thanks to Jeff. Yes, it's complicated and meant for people who want to do advanced searches. If people want to do less-complicated searches, they'll find instructions and a Mudcat Primer in the FAQ/Newcomer's Guide, in the very first message - complete with demonstration graphics.
I'm sorry, but we just can't be all things to all people. They may have to look around a bit, and find some things out for themselves. If they fail to see the FAQ/Newcomer's Guide at the very top of the Forum Menu, where can we put it so it would be more obvious?
-Joe Offer-