The end of religious freedom in the US

Subject: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:33 AM

H.R. 3598, The Universal Military Training and Service Act of 2001...I was speaking last night with some fellow Quakers about this bill which calls for universal military training for all, even Quakers, Amish, Jehova's Witnesses, Menonites, Hasid and other orthodox Jews... (we are exempted from training with guns - but must go though the rest of baisc training),,, and about the fact that basic training also entails real brain washing, my brother was a good example, raised a Quaker, joined the reserves as he felt it was unfair he could get CO status so easy, did want to go to Veit Nam and kill, after basic, asked to be a helicopter pilot and be sent to Veit Nam, BECAUSE of the high mortality rate and could not wait to get into combat ... we had it out when he was on leave and it brought him to his senses. Fact is, Pennsylvania came about because we Quakers would not be conscripted, we opened our colony to Amish and Menonites and others who would not wear a uniform... and here we are about to loose the heaven of the peaceable kingdom. I recall generations of us, until WWII who where tortured in American Prisons because we would not be soldiers of any state... I think it is time for the major peace churches to march for our first amendment rights not to have our children removed from our religious societies and brainwashed by the state. Yours in the light Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:42 AM

You and your bloody amendments.

You do realise that the rest of the world laughs and makes jokes about them?

Despite your amendments, you don't have freedom - unless of course you're a white, hetrosexual, conservative, gun-owning, racist Need I go on?

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:47 AM

You'd think learning not to go shooting yourself in the foot would be the first thing people who are into military training would have had drilled into them...

Here's a link to the War Resisters League site about The Universal Military Training and Service Act of 2001

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:49 AM

It took me awhile but I finally found a relevant article here that seems to detail the amendment. It's chilling! I wonder what it means for potential 4-F men?

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:53 AM

Dear anonimous friend, to make your point, you do need to go on... every nation needs to struggle with each of its laws to empower the minority. England, France, Germany, there is a struggle for a varity of rights. Even Sweeden has a struggle for rights of Roma for example - But our amendments, as you call them, are milestones in a struggle which like all human history pushes forwards and falls back. At the moment we are falling back. Quakers and others suffered for the cause of peace here, for generations, and I think that our lambs war created more rights, and had its value. So... are the most empowered the only ones who benifit from Constitutional amendments, well, you will have to go on to prove it... It is too easy to throw a barb and run. As to my fellow Americans, I urge you to add your voices to disprove our guests well meant vocalisation (I agree that America and other partners in the global ecconomic network of pillage create misery and discrimination, but that is not what this post is about friend).
Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:56 AM

Thanks McGrath... here is what his link says, but go to it as it has another link...
The Universal Military Training and Service Act of 2001, H.R. 3598 introduced by Rep. Smith (MI) and Rep. Weldon (PA) would make military service an "OBLIGATION FOR YOUNG MEN" (Sec 3a) between the ages of 18-22. The period of mandatory service would be for "not less than six months, but not more than one year" (Sec 4.a) and is open to women of the same age group. Conscientious Objectors would also be required to "participate in basic military training and education" (Sec.10b).

Immediate Action Needed: Contact your representative and urge him or her not to sign on as a co-sponsor for H.R. 3598 and to pressure their colleagues who sit on the House Armed Services Committee to kill the bill in committee. Calls are especially needed to members of the Armed Services Committee with the message to let H.R. 3598 die in committee. Call the U.S. Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121 and ask for your representative.
Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Grab
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:28 AM

Compulsory for men only?! Don't think that one will get past the equal-rights ppl! (Or maybe it will - too many "equal rights" organisations are actually after positive discrimination in favour of their groups...)

Many European countries have national service still, but there's the option for conscientious objectors to do their service in community service - in police, nursing, etc.

The downside with national service though, as far as government is concerned, is that it's vastly expensive to fund. I don't believe the US would take too kindly to a 5% rise in taxes, considering the poor dears are already complaining about "high" taxes when they in fact have one of the lowest rates of tax in the world. It's surely the kind of thing that gets proposed to draw attention to the bill's proposers, not something that any GOP will pass.

Graham.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:41 AM

Despite your amendments, you don't have freedom - unless of course you're a white, hetrosexual, conservative, gun-owning, racist Need I go on?

Hey! Cool! Three out of five! That's 60%, which is a passing grade in our school system.

And I've been accused of the other two, often enough, by people who didn't really know me.

Peter.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: mack/misophist
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:37 AM

I suspect this bill is just a kind of legislative flame, introduced to make a show for the voters in his district. That sort of thing is common.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:38 AM

This kind of a bill makes me gag, and I say that as a non-draft-resisting Vietnam veteran and military retiree. Luckily, it seems to be a bid for votes at home in a House election year rather than an actual attempt to initiate such a thing. I'd have less problem with a UNIVERSAL service requirement that didn't mandate that the service be in the military.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:07 AM

I have nothing against mandatory "service" as long as it's for both men and women, and can include the CHOICE OF military OR OTHER service. What would be bad about teenagers having to spend 2 semesters volunteering somewhere sometime between age 16 and graduating college? They could help clean roads, help build bridges, help in schools or mental health institutions or courtrooms - or go through military training, if that is what they think would be most helpful. The US is practically the only country that doesn't have any such thing (in Burma you have to be a monk for a total of 2 years, say 3 months at age 3, a year at 14, etc, as long as you're done by age 18, for example). What would be hurt by having teenagers contribute to society in any way they can, including militarily if that is their choice?

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:21 AM

What would be hurt by having teenagers contribute to society in any way they can, including militarily if that is their choice?

Well, the Constitution would be....

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

- 13th Amendment, Sec. 1

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:17 AM

Hmmmm. I'll have to think on that one for awhile.

On the one hand, there's a lot of teenagers who would benefit from such a proposal. On the other hand, like Midchuck said, that could mean involuntary servitude, and that's against the Constitution.

And on the third hand...... I thought one of the neat things about our armed forces was that nobody HAS to join up. You're free to choose. ('course, once you get in, that's a whole different ballgame, but you know that from the start)

Doesn't EVERY boy at 18 have to sign up for the draft, regardless? I went to high school with a blind boy and on his 18th birthday, someone took him to sign up. But Victor's blind, I said. Right, my teacher said, but he still has to sign up. He wouldn't get drafted - but the law says he has to sign up anyway.

And of course I am not at all for forcing people into service where it is forbidden by their chosen religion.

The implications are staggering.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:25 AM

Thanks Midchuck........sums a good part of it up. There is a long list of new legislation that in the name of freedom and/or terrorism is not just chipping away at many civil rights, but wiping out entire forests of them.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:26 AM

As I recall, it has been held that the "involuntary servitude" provision doesn't apply to the military draft because it is overruled by the Constitutional grant of power to Congress to "raise armies." I wonder about that logic, but, through some carelessness on the part of those in power, I'm not on the Supreme Court. Even if you accept that logic, though, it would seem to apply only to the military, not service for any other purpose.

Peter.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:00 PM

Doing good wouldn't be "involuntary servitude" if children were raised to understand that they need to contrubute to society if they want society to be able to continue to contribute to them. What about the Peace Corps, for instance? Nothing says it has to be DOMESTIC service... And volunteering isn't slavery, either, so I don't see how the Constitution could object, sorry, Midchuck!

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:00 PM

For example, children are REQUIRED to attend school or the equivalent, and nobody cries Involuntary Servitude there...

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:08 PM

Well, Larry, I have passed the word along, by email. I also called Wyoming's rep. who is a twit and probably very much behind this bill, it would be her way, so I don't know if I did much good, BUT I am really glad you let us know about it and I will continue to pass it along.

Spaw, you are right and it is chilling, isn't it?

Thank you,

kat

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:12 PM

nothing will be solved until 1)religion is no longer used AS an excuse for war and violence in the world and 2) even those who are NOT religious understand how useless war & violence are.

yes, I'm serious, but no, I have no illusions about either ever happening....therefore, religious folk will be forever trying to come to terms with the laws and pressures on them, both from outside and from within their own churches.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:17 PM

What with modern technology the importance of having healthy young people running around in uniform isn't so relevant.

If the proposed period for drafting people kicked in at age 60 it might make more sense. And no exemptions for politicians. In fact give them the first place in line.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:21 PM

you mean like in Malvina Reynolds' classic?

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Jim Krause
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 02:57 PM

Doesn't EVERY boy at 18 have to sign up for the draft, regardless? I went to high school with a blind boy and on his 18th birthday, someone took him to sign up. But Victor's blind, I said. Right, my teacher said, but he still has to sign up. He wouldn't get drafted - but the law says he has to sign up anyway.

Yep, Kim. That was the way it was back in the bad ol' days of '71 when I turned 18. I knew I was going to be 4F. So it didn't matter whether I was a concientious objector or not. I registered as a CO anyway because I really was and still am a concientious objector to war.

Jim

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 03:17 PM

Jim, they still have to go into the post office and register once they hit 18. I know, I wasn't happy about it at all when my son had to. At least it is obstentibly NOT for a draft, but we all know that's a crock the minute they decide differently.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:18 PM

Until WWII, conscientious objectors were harassed, imprisoned, vilified... If this bill were to pass, it would be a giant step backward.

I read the bill and kept expecting to find the rationale, i.e. military service for all those young men is essential because...? I agree with those above who rather like the idea that each young adult should serve their community in some fashion for some period of time. But why in the world it should be military escapes me.

I remember when in the '50s, some Amish men were actually arrested and spent some time in jail because of their refusal to send their children on to higher education. (The fact that I disagree with their position is not relevant here) After long litigious debate, with the ACLU involved, the government finally agreed that they had the right on religious grounds to govern their own communities.

On the same basis, they were granted the right not to contribute to the Social Security System, because they do not utilize its benefits. (Of course, they do pay other taxes)

If (and I don't believe it will happen in the foreseeable future) this bill were to be implemented, can you imagine the uproar in Congress from all the pacifist groups? I doubt very much that the government would have the stomach for the struggle.

I don't know the ages of the bill sponsors- but my guess is that they are young enough not to remember what happened.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: GUEST,catspaw50
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:29 PM

You can thank ALL the military veterans who fought in many a war and protected our country in times of peace for the ability to gripe about possibly having to serve yourself someday. "Oh no - let someone else die for me. I'm too busy waxing philsophical about it all." You can sit here and post all the mumbo jumbo you want to make yourselves feel good and intelligent, but the truth is that YOU are not willing to REALLY stand up for what you believe in and that is the duty of every freedom loving person. That means service to your country. So until you've walked the walk, you're not suited to talk the talk.
Thank a veteran today!

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:53 PM

Guest/cs50times, I agree. However, thank the CO also- I would not want to live in a world that sees only physical, violent action as valid.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Bearheart
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:49 PM

What is wrong with believing it's wrong to kill another human being? And believing that you have a right to live that belief?

If you think it is the coward's way, then you have no idea what some humans have put up with in the way of abuse in order to live up to that belief. Some things are worse than dying. I once hit a squirrel on the road. It tore me up. I once had to put a dog I loved to sleep because it was suffering with heart failure. That was worse. To kill another human being, usually only because his government has forced him to come after me with a gun? Why? Frankly the current US government is nothing to kill--- or die-- for. And I bet they ask these boys to do it before another 4 years are past. For oil, or some other reason that will put money in their pockets.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Suffet
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 06:22 AM

Larry, as an attorney you know that the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment have often been at odds with each other. The former protects freedom from religion and the latter protects freedom of religion. The branches of government, particularly Congress and the courts, are always faced with a balancing act. Didn't the Selective Service Acts of 1940 and 1948 "establish religion" by giving special status to religious objectors who professed a belief in a "Supreme Being" while denying that same status to everyone else? Yes, I know the Supreme Court's Seeger decision in 1965 knocked out the "Supreme Being" requirement, but it affirmed Congress's stipulation that CO status be granted only for "religious training and belief," even as it broadened the scope of what that language meant.

Beyond conscientious objection, the USA's conscription laws of 1863, 1917, 1940, 1948, and 1967 all exempted clergymen ("ministers of the Gospel") from military service. Was that not establishing religion?

The bottom line is that I am against consvription as a general principle, but if we must have it, then I believe local Selective Service boards must be mandated to consider all claims of conscientious objection, whatever the basis. Otherwise, Congress would have given religion in general, and the Historic Peace Churches in particular, a special status which amounts to establsihment of religion. In the same vein, I also believe there should be no exemption for the clergy. Let individuals claim conscientious objector status if they will. Otherwise, let them face the same three way moral dilemma other young men face (and which young women may very well face): service versus evasion versus open resistance.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 07:06 AM

Peter (Midchuck)
Despite your amendments, you don't have freedom - unless of course you're a white, hetrosexual, conservative, gun-owning, racist. Need I go on?
Hey! Cool! Three out of five! That's 60%, which is a passing grade in our school system.

And I've been accused of the other two, often enough, by people who didn't really know me.

So Peter, does this mean that only those who don't know you well, accuse you of being white & hetro?

(Only kidding)
Eddie

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 07:26 AM

Dear Steve:
Long and short of it, we Quakers came to this contentent, long before the Constitution to establish the Peaceable Kingdom. We opened our doors (not the US did WE did) to German anabaptists who where adimant as we were that they should not be conscripted. The tradition of religious freedom here, is more than a little the result of our coming here and establishing it. I believe, if this terrible tyrannical bill is passed, that our Peaceable Kingdom is dead, the America we created is dead, and I for one, will go to what ever nation will grant my faith freedom. In the words of our Quaker peace testimony, I will not study war. Stay, in a nation that will not accept people of peace, I will not.
Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 07:28 AM

This was sent to me by a fellow Quaker, a dear friend and Friend and I thought I may share it with you all...
February 11, 2002

Rep. Joseph Crowley
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515

Re: H.R. 3598, The Universal Military Training and Service Act of 2001

Dear Congressman Crowley:

As one of your constituents, I urge you not to sign on as a co-sponsor for H.R. 3598, and to use your influence to see that this ill-conceived piece of legislation does not become law. In its requirement that all young men receive military training, regardless of conscientious objector status, it constitutes a declaration of war by the United States against its own people.

There are people to whom it is idolatry to salute a flag or an officer. There are people to whom it is the violation of God's commandment to touch a weapon of war. If the 107th Congress succeeds in stuffing devout young men's consciences down their throats and criminalizing their efforts to be faithful to God, it will go down in history with Nero and Hitler. Do not be part of this devilish effort. I appeal to you to do whatever you can to crush it.

Sincerely,

John Edminster

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 07:32 AM

My dear friends... I urge you to try and understand the depth of our commitment to peace. Our brothers in peace, the Amish, spent decades in jail with us during past wars, before WWII. There are storries of young Amish being tortured in American jails for pulling the buttons off their prison clothes, as to our brothers in peace, a button is a symbol of soldiering, so they use pins to fasten thier clothes. To all who think us cowards for our stand for peace, well, you have not stood with us, who face for much of our lives, perils for our belief that God commands us, all of us, not to kill.
Yours in the light, Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 08:45 AM

Um - "even those who are NOT religious understand how useless war & violence are." - isn't that oxymoronic, given that nearly all past and extant actual real-world conflicts have a religious basis?

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 09:06 AM

In reality, most wars do not have a religious basis... the war in Ireland, and many other "religious wars" were in fact, colateral wars of the cold war, and the "religious" issue was a smoke screan to hide the real politic behind the war. However, if some choose to fight over the abstractions we use to describe God, that is on their soul, I will stand aside from all wars, and if my fellows are not given that freedom, well, this would not be a nation worth living in. We have moved before, and I believe the peace churches have made considerable contributions to this nation, I am sure there are nations which treasure the freedoms we claim, which would be happy to have us.
Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 09:07 AM

Lazarus Long always gets the last word:

No state has the inherent right to survive through conscript troops and in the long run, no state ever has. Roman matrons used to say to their sons: "Come back with your shield, or on it." Later on, this custom declined. So did Rome.

- Robert Heinlein

Peter.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 09:59 PM

Good luck InOBU with your freedom fighting on this issue (If worse comes to worse you could try Canada I think you'd be an asset). Quakers in Canada are also watching this and writing to our government about it as, apparently, it may not exempt foreign nationals living in the States who are COs. Given Canada's recent shameful conduct in following the US lead on the treatment of convicts instead of the Geneva Convention we need to start work now.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Suffet
Date: 13 Feb 02 - 11:05 PM

Larry, please let me be clear: I oppose the Selective Service bill. Having said that, I still do not believe that any religion or religious organization, including any of the Historic Peace Churches, should be given any special status. I realize that Quaker settlements predate the US Constitution, but so do Congregationalists (formerly Puritans) and a host of others, each of whom came to found its own "New Zion in the Wilderness of America." The Establishment and Free Exercise clauses were written into the First Amendment to recognize both the religious pluralism of the new nation and the need to create a secular government (at first only at the federal level).

I suspect that we will keep this discussion going at another time and place!

Kindest regards,
Steve

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: DougR
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 12:17 AM

I see nothing wrong with it. It would be similar to the Selective Service Act of 1948. That bill allowed young men to join one of the services for a period or one year and serve either four years in the active reserve, or six years in the inactive reserve.

I joined, along with thousands of other 18 year old men and served my four years in the active reserve. I was none the worse for wear because of it.

I would also favor young women being included, and those who are CO's should serve in non-combatant roles.

If one is going to enjoy the freedoms offered by this country, one should not object to defending them, either in a combat or non-combatant role. There are those, I know who are comfortable with others doing the defencing for them. It will be always thus, I suppose.

That's my opionion anyway.

DougR

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Chip2447
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 01:49 AM

I take offense at being labeled "brain washed", or even the implication of such.
Does two months in "boot camp" and four years of honorably serving our country amount to brain-washing more than a lifetime of religious teaching?
Aren't you brainwashing your children to accept your moral and religious beliefs?
At least mine was by choice and not due to the pressure of my parents and or family groups.

Larry, I would today defend your right to believe as you wish, and with my life if neccessary.

Chip2447

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 07:29 AM

Grab is wrong in stating that Americans "have one of the lowest rates of tax in the world." That may be true if you only consider the federal income tax. But in addition, Americans pay a separate and very steep tax for Social Security and for Medicare. Most also pay state income taxes, and many pay local (municipal or county) income taxes. In addition to these, there are local property taxes, state and local sales taxes, federal excise taxes, import duties, capital gains taxes, estate taxes, gift taxes, and a number of taxes diguised as user fees and licensing fees.

The problem is not that Americans are undertaxed; the problem is that Americans don't get good value for their tax money. So much of it is wasted on boondoggles, civil and military alike, while the USA still lacks a national health care program for anyone but the elderly and the very poor. Even those programs could stand vast improvement.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 08:25 AM

Hi Chip: The brainwashing eliment, is the placing of folks under constant stress with huge peer pressure, which for combat is a good thing, and is absoutly nessisary. For most Americans it does not cause harm, and in fact good stuff comes out of it. My brother, also raised a Quaker - had a draft number of 14 during the Veit Nam war. He joined, as if I remember, I wrote about above, because he felt it was unfair that many folks who in their hearts new war was wrong, did not have the advantage of Quaker upbringing - to know they could do something about it... he felt he could go into the reserves and not kill. His letters from boot camp showed some of the good the training does, he describes southern white kids learning to rely on Black fellows for the first time - especially back then, learning some equality. But he also fell for the kill the enimy peer presure and volunteered to become a helocoter pilot and would have if he did not have a Quaker home to come back to on leave, and he and I had it out...
As to our brain washing, some Peace churches do, some don't. We Quakers don't prostilize, even to our kids, and teach and learn in silence for the most part. Amish have their kids leave the plain tradition in their teens to experience the world. However, there are aspects of our traditions which make military training even without guns imposible. We Friends don't use as simple titles as Mr and Ms, let alone Sir. We can't salute, as an expression of our belief in the equality of humanity in the eguation of a cooperative univerce. Amish will not wear buttons let alone uniforms - as wont plain Menonites.
Steve, it is quite simple, I understand you don't accept a constitutional argument for exemption to the law you oppose as I do, but for us, it is quite simple, I don't agree with your interpritation of the Constitution, but even if I did, even if the Constitution clearly stated all Americans must serve in the US, we would oppose service or leave, that is the tradition of religious oppression and religious freedom for peace churches, we will not serve in the military. NOW, if there was a non military alternative service without military training and hierarchy, well, that is a different thing. As long as there was a degree of freedom of choice in service, also a Quaker value, I think I would be cautiously accepting if not appoving.
Yours, Larry who would think about Canada, where the food and music is better than here....

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:30 AM

Um - inOBU - I beg to differ with your differing with me... Where you say "In reality, most wars do not have a religious basis... the war in Ireland, and many other 'religious wars' were in fact, collateral wars of the cold war, and the 'religious' issue was a smoke screan to hide the real politic behind the war." When Catholic children kill other children whom they believe to be Protestant, or vice versa, I don't see how it isn't religious. Certainly there were political aspects to the original British move to cut off Northern Ireland, as well as to the British desire to stay there, but what keeps the conflict going in the streets of Ireland and the minds of the folks who participate in this ongoing violence is the religious difference. You don't have children killing other children over politics, but you do over religion. The reason the Serbs hate the Bosnians is that they (the Bosnians) converted to Islam back during the Ottoman occupation lo these many centuries ago, and have never been forgiven. I know, my Momwas raised Serbian, and she doesn't think Milosevic did anything wrong. The only current conflict that has no religious overtones that I can find is the Hutus/Tutsis in Rwanda, which really seems tribal rather than religious. However, nobody reports on what the tribal religions are, so we don't know if there are any religious underpinnings as well. My old home town, Abidjan, is currently undergoing some Moslem versus the Christians versus the Animists, I have Moslem kin there who are afraid to leave their home, even to go shopping. Yes there is political vying for power in Côte d'Ivoire, but the violence at the street level is religious in nature. Governments never succeed in fomenting such violence without playing the religion card, and inflaming the bigotry of their people. And any religion is bigotry, almost by definition, as soon as it claims to be more "true" than any other religion, which I have to admit the Quakers never did, at least not mykith or kin.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 01:53 PM

There are many ways to serve. For me- even though I am not Catholic- I'm glad to know there are cloistered people who 'pray without ceasing'. It is my belief that God doesn't need the prayers, we do. We have no way of knowing what our world would be like if, heaven forfend, there weren't strong elements in it of peace, altruism, empathy, respect, and love, to somewhat counter-balance the view that only physical courage is valid or of use.

As an example, I suspect that many people- including Mudcatters- are able to feel the turmoil around them when minds and hearts violently disagree, even when no one is speaking; by the same token, we can feel the serenity of peaceable hearts. Things of the spirit do affect this world.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: GUEST,Suffet at work
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 04:14 PM

Larry, we are actually approaching common ground, although we are not yet there. I oppose the Selective Service bill. I oppose all military conscription, and I oppose all compulsory military training, even if it is conducted under civilian auspices. However, I even more strongly oppose ANY preferential treatment for religion and religious organizations. So if we are to have a conscription law, then let it recognize conscientious objection for secular and humanistic as well as for religious reasons. And let it exempt all recognized conscientious objectors from military training as well as from military service.

As far as clergy go, abolish their automatic exemption. My feeling is from Marat/Sade: "Out with the priests and let them live off their fat!"

--- Steve

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 04:32 PM

Hi Mrzzy... re: "When Catholic children kill other children whom they believe to be Protestant, or vice versa, I don't see how it isn't religious", fact is this is not the case. As an Anglo Irishman, and of course a Protestant, I have lived in Republican parts of the North, and was never in danger. I was in dangered by my liberal belief among North Irish Protestants. There have been long conversations about this posted here, which I would ask you to read, it would be drift to begin the whole process again, other than to say, note the war ended the year Ireland gave up its neutrality allowing NATO to use Irish air bases during the Gulf war and the same year the USSR broke up, the secret negotiations began with the IRA, same year NATO did not have to monitor the Scappa Flow from Ireland, not a coincidence.
A bit of real thread drift... How are the Kids!? Say hi from me!
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: baywop
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 04:33 PM

Larry, I accept your right to your religious opinions. But this country would not exist if everyone had followed them. How did the quakers get the natives to relinquish their land?

1776, 1812, 1917, 1941

Where would you be now had people followed your principles? If you are willing to share in the fruits of your country and enjoy its protection, you should be equally willing to share in its upkeep and defense.

All men created equal, all with rights, all with obligations.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 06:03 PM

Funny you should ask, Baywop... In point of fact, we Quakers, possesors of a rather large tract of land, barganed with the Natives, and though did take advantage at first, speaking truthfully but with some less than obvious motives... we are acknowleged by natives as the only Americans who kept and keep all our treaties to the present day, in short, had you other guys kept your word, you would not have to have killed natives to get land. As to the other wars, Quakes did a lot to try to keep them from happening, and carried a lot of hurt folks off the battle fields of all the sides. But, I think the first question is the most important, treat folks right and you don't have to kill each other.
In short, yup if everyone felt as we do, war would be really hard to fight! Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 06:05 PM

I just realized you may not know much about Quakers... Pensulvania was a Quaker Coloney, for decades the Colony was governed by the Philidelphia meeting. CHeers again, Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 08:11 PM

It seems to me that to argue absolutes is not possible with these issues. I don't want to kill. But I sure as hell would want to defend my people from terror and invasion. Citizens should be prepared to do what their religious calling allows in the defence of their country.

If this means medical or religious support etc. then fine. To opt out from this support could be seen to be a withdrawl from the Nation.

During WWII British pacifists were usually concripted into transport or medical.

....and InObu there are too many instances over the last 50 years that no matter how right you "treat the folks" you would have ended up with whole races missing if the aggressor wasn't taken to task.

I am not arguing what is right....just what IS.

Spot.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: GUEST,Souter
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 08:52 PM

I learned in school that the Quakers were the ones who DIDN'T treat the Native Americans unfairly.

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 09:31 PM

Well, Souter... the reality is we made a deal for as much land as a certain number of folks could walk in a day, Penn got I think 12, athletes to walk around what became Pennsulvania in a day. However, after that, Quakers kept their treaties with scruplous care.
Spot, wars happen after a lot of prewar history, Hitler, for example, fed on the desire to punish Germany for WWI. Quakers and a number of communities of concience argued for fair treatment of parties after and between the wars.
The most recent agression against the US, though absoulty inhumanly crule and without heart, did not happen in a vacume as well, the US armed and trained the Afgan terrorists and have been in the buisness of droping bombs on places in that region ever since the last time we declared war, fifty years ago. We have been living by the sword for the past fifty years and without a single declaration of war. We reep what we sow, I choose to sow peace, do what your heart leads you to do, but don't demand I pull your broken body off the field as an obligation of your state, I likely will do it as a matter of my faith, but I object to you telling our Quaker children we owe you their lives for the wars you start and we stand aside from, what ever flag you fly.
Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 10:13 AM

Boys are fine, Larry, and I still think most conflicts anywhere on the planet are based on religious intolerance of other religions, but again, I've never had a problem with Quakers, although I have to admit that the Quakers I knew around Philly where my dad's family (Quaker) is from never talked about any gods, they talked about the Inner Light, whereas down here in Ole Virginny all they talk about is God and I can't stand the meetings. WHat ever happened to the Inner Light?

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 10:35 AM

Mrzzy! You have fallen in with Evangelical Quakes! My first gut responce is to make a joke about their being so like other Evangelical faiths, but they have no sence of humor and they may passive resist me to death! No, really, our meeting in New York, was origionaly a Hicksite (Liberal inner-light) meeting which in 1960 merged with an Orthodox (Christocentric - inner light + Christ only) meeting. Orthodox (Wilberite and Gurneyite) is a rather misnomer, baised on the contention that they alone are origional Quakerism, when in fact, I would say the combination of the two comes close, eliments of both traditions held together by belief in individual inspiration ... Well, then a wee bit of history, in the 1820's we split into two separate religions, which re-merged in 1955... Now, these traditions are "unprogramed" ie no ministers or priests worshiping in silence. Today there are some "programed" meetings, most comon in Africa, but also found in Ohio and a number of other places in the US, often Evangelical and hard to distinguish in my eyes from Baptists... We also have a programed meeting which meets in our meeting house in New York. On a happy note, we don't shoot each other, but rather we share the meeting house, well hell we even share the meeting house with Menonites (nice folks!) to get back to the origional post, we don't have to fight over sharing the meeting house or the planet... lots of room for all!
I, as you may guess, am a Hicksite - but some of my best friends are Wilberites and Gurnytes.
:-)
Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 12:37 PM

One more thing... I was only joking about my feelings towards other traditions in our meeting house, and in fact, most of our committees are made up of orthodox and hicksite members. Also, I believe that Programmed worship is becoming the most common form of Quakerism, though it is very new to the Quaker tradition. Similer to the fast spread of other Evangelical faiths, I have heard that 80% of American Friends are members of Programmed meetings. I do wonder at this, as it seems to fly in the face of the most elimental concept in Quakerism, waiting in silence on the lord rather than listening to another human, but well... what can I say. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 12:51 PM

At least they have silence, and I've heard the phrase "that Friend speaks my mind" - so you can at least tell them from the Baptists, hee hee!

Subject: RE: The end of religious freedom in the US
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 02:14 PM

Ahhh slient types... most likely Gurnyites and Wiberites... But, well, for some of that ol'time Quakerism, drop in at 15th Street meeting when you are in New York next. Mid week meeting is nice also, about 4 of us, completely silent meeting... Quietists... another whole rant... Cheers Larry