Ulster Scots Music ?

Subject: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 04:38 PM

Dear all,
There was broadcast recently a British TV documentary which followed a Ulster Scots Music troupe to Italy. Apparently the Italians had the greatest difficulty with the music, repeatedly referring to it as Scots.I didn't see the programme myself.
Can anyone out there define this music ?
I have been in the music business all my life and this is the first time I've heard of it.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 04:46 PM

Ulster Scots Music

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 08:06 PM

'Enery my son! That's a troll, if ever I heard one!

Regards

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: michaelr
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 09:17 PM

Ulster being the northeast corner of Ireland, it's the closest to Scotland, and people have been crossing back and forth for ages, and their music with them. Particularly Co. Donegal's fiddling style is very Scots-influenced.

Does this help at all?

Michael

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 02:49 AM

Ulster - that is where the original Scots came from.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Paddy Plastique
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 04:22 AM

I thought this was those Drumcree campsite boyos and girlos back again.
I'd say they're at Spike Milligan's wake, though, Brian rest his soul.
'Ulster Scots' as a term has caused a bit of incredulity recently.
I believe that, through DUP pressure, a post was created at the Stormont Assembly
for an 'Ulster Scots' interpreter - to a bit of derision in some quarters
I also know a bloke from the Ardoyne who, in pre-Troubles days, said he
had a workmate from the country near Ballymena who was virtually
incomprehensible to poor Belfast folk - due to the same lingo.
Obviously there's a musical style to go along with it - unless it was one
o' them Orange marching bands - though I think they'd rather play a gig
in hell itself than get anywhere near auld Papish Rome

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 04:11 PM

Martin,
This is not a troll (trawl?). If it were, I wouldn't use my own name. I tried Sorcha's link and found myself listening to tunes I grew up with, two jigs called "The Frost is all Over" (featured on one of the Chieftain's albums) and "Saddle the Pony." These two tunes are played widely all over Ireland and form part of the vast corpus of music known as Irish Traditional Music. (The "Irish" is only used outside of Ireland as everybody knows what Traditional Music is inside Ireland). Never in all my wide experience have I heard of Ulster Scots Music until recently.
It is for this reason that I look for a definition. I was never aware during all the years when I competed in Traditional Music competitions in Ballymena Town Hall or at Fleadhanna or Céilís throughout the North did I ever hear the term used. There was -and still is- a great two way traffic in music between Scotland and Ireland but the joins are seamless for the most part in this musical continuum.
I ask again: can anyone define Ulster Scots Music in such a way that it is instantly recognisable as something distinct from both Irish and Scottish Traditional Music?

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 04:17 PM

Nope--I think it must just be the name of the orchestra I linked to. (I knew it wasn't a troll, annaroi)I was curious too! Tis' a puzzlement!

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Nelson
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 09:17 PM

There must be someone who can answer this. Where are my friends from the Ulster Scots Heritage Council? Nelson

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Nelson
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 10:16 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Seán
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 10:31 PM

From the pipe band perspective, the sudden rise in pipe bands in the post WW2 period to a number which exceeds the pipe bands in Scotland. Many of the Ulster-Scots pipe band tunes are played worldwide eg The rowantree.

The spread of the fiddle from Lowland Scotland to ulster (during migration) to America and the tunes associated with it.

And the fife and lambeg drum - tunes and times which have been around for over 2 hundred years now, unfortunatly lots more tunes etc have been lost over time as well.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 10:36 PM

The following is a direct quote from an "Ulster Scots" correspondence list. It might help to answer the question.

"This is purely a personal opinion it should not be viewed as the USHC's interpretation nor are the examples meant to be exhaustive.

Ulster-Scots music and song is as follows: 1.. Tunes thats use is proven on either side of the North Channel (In older Scots music books it is common to find a tune listed with a note that it is also found in Ulster or part of it as well as the Burns ) The music in the Lowlands especially Dumfires and Galloway will be of importance in the 16-19th century considering the persistent flow back and forth (beyond actual settlement). 2. Music and song written by Ulster-Scots (eg the large number of modern piping tunes that are written to the large number of songs written by theRhyming weavers of modern country rhymers) 3. Music and song about Ulster-Scots places people or communities. 4. The Scotch-Irish/Appalachian music and its modern development Bluegrass."

Under all that there are hundreds of tunes and songs (regrettably many inaccessible) but plenty to be getting on with.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 10:43 PM

sounds very like Scots tae me.Ah wid say it is Northern Irish music played in the Scots style.Ulster Scots Orchestra

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 10:49 PM

Annraoi ,here's a wee job for ye.Whit in the name o' Gawd is the man sayin oan the second track.Btw,the band is very guid.ljc

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 08:52 PM

Paddy, "The Ardoyne" is a fiction of the media's making. It's their way of referring to an area at the top of Ardoyne Road. To people who lived there before it was in the news, it is as absurd as calling some area off Oxford Street "The Oxford".

Here's a link to a previous thread on Ulster Scots music. (Wildone's links still work.)

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 08:47 AM

Another relic of the troubles, Ulster-Scots Music!. Now I have been a long long time in and around the North and this form of "music" was unheard off. The lovely melodic sound of the Lambeg Drum would certainly be a fine contribution. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Jackie
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 10:19 AM

Sean, I agree that many tunes ( airs, marches, jigs etc..) have been lost over the years but there are many new tune composed also. The volumes of pipe tunes that are released each year are great to hear. The pipe bands in Ireland (especially. in N.Ireland) have over the last 6/7 years have changed their whole selection of competition tunes. We now hear many traditional Irish tunes being played, thanks to the likes of Richard Parkes and 'Field Marshal Montgomery' pipe band and 'Ravara pipeband. Great to hear!!

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Jackie
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 09:40 PM

I had always been led to believe that pipe band music was Highland in origin and therefore Gaelic, not Scots.
is it not true that after Culloden the Highland dress-kilts and plaids - as well as the playing of the bagpipes, was proscribed under pain of death by the English and the Lowlanders. If my teachers were correct, only one Highland clan aquiesced in this ethnic cleansing, namely the Campbells who have been cursed in Gaelic circles ever since.
It would seem to me, therfore, that all these claims of the so-called Ulster Scots are based on very dubious grounds indeed.
I think that they need to sit down with some reputable scholars and find out who they really are. Place not your confidence in politicians. Jackie

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 11:27 PM

The Pipes were never banned in Scotland; that's an old wives' tale.  The tradition was not originally Gaelic; bagpipes were widely played in England before they even reached Scotland, for what that's worth.  Highland dress was proscribed for a while (in the Highlands only) by the joint government of Scotland and England; not by the Wicked English, whatever later fantasists might like to believe.  Your teachers should probably consult some reputable historians.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: JulieF
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 07:46 AM

I don't know if this is the right thread to add this to, but people may be interested to know that ,as part of Sheffield/ South Yorkshire Irish Festival,there is a seminar:

Fostering an Understanding of Ulster Scots People

Sponsored by the Insitute of Ulster Scots Studies and the Ulster Scots Agency

National Centre for Popular Music Seminar Room 9th March 2002 at 1.00pm

Contact 0114 2210481

Sorry for the adverstising but it does fit with the discussion

All the best

Julie

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 09:44 AM

By the way, Malcolm, the pipes were widely played across Europe long before England ever got them. In fact, the very earliest instruments that can be considered the forerunner of the pipes probably came out of the area of India and Pakistan.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 09:54 AM

They were indeed, and were in use long before either England or Scotland existed as nations.  I was pointing mainly to the absurdity of the myths that have grown up surrounding the Jacobite rebellions, many of which are about as authentic as tartan shortbread tins.  The historical facts are less romantic but, to my mind, more compelling.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 10:01 AM

Agreed. I hate it when the discussion is based on premises which are false to begin with. The whole discussion is skewed from the start. If one is going to discuss a subject, they should take the time to get the background down..............As I so painfully re-discovered when I jumped into the "Drumcree" without taking the time to read the whole thing..............LOL.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 10:27 AM

With regard to pipe bands in general they were particularly British and relatively new to the scene dating back only to about 1830.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 11:08 AM

Aye an' whit aboot this guff aboot tartan.That wis the Sobieski brithers that stertit aw' that.Then the King,ah cannae mind his name,decided he wid look dapper in ane an' so the fashion wis born.Ah think it wis German Geordie,bit ah could be wrang aboot that. ljc

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 06:47 PM

a new name for an old thing
I've liked what I've heard from Willie Drennan (contemporary musician not the long deceased United Irishman) up to now. He wasn't calling himself and co "Ulster-Scots Orchestra" then. The title sounds gimicky. Anyway, I'll probably go to their gig at Magee College, Derry on Thursday night. Anyone want to put a specific question to Willie?

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 06:51 PM

Aye,Annraoi wants tae know whit's meant by the term "Ulster Scots" music. ljc

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 02:52 AM

LJC - think it was William IV, who decided he would humour his Scottish subjects by wearing tartan for the formal reception at Holyrood during his royal visit to Edinburgh. The word was leaked to those invited to attend and they all dashed back and scoured their estates to find someone old enough to tell them what their own tartans looked like.

Ulster Scots music - music unique and particular to the original inhabitants of the area of the island of Ireland known as Ulster.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 10:30 AM

"Original inhabitants" eh? There's a weaselly little phrase you've attempted to slip quietly in without anyone noticing! When are we talking about? 30,000BC? Are there any contemporary recordings available?

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 10:45 AM

Hi Greg,

The Scots originated from Ulster, therefore the term Ulster Scot should not come as a surprise to anyone who knows anything about the history of the British Isles - What is "weaselly" about that?

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 11:02 AM

Teribus, I have lived among you for years and where you come from they were glad to see the back of you and where your going is no mystery. Paddy Joe

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 11:35 AM

Teribus, I think you are referring to the highland Scots. The Lowland Scots, I believe, were originally from the Britain, no?

At the risk of being pedantic, wouldn't you use the term "Ulster Scots" to refer to the Scots living in Scotland that claim Ulster as the home of their ancestors? And wouldn't the proper term for the folks living in Ulster to be "Ulster Irish"? Before you correct me, please understand that I am fully aware of the political nature of my comment, and am not being naive. I certainly don't have a problem with folks using whatever construct they choose among themselves to create an identity. We Irish Americans do it all the time. But the term "Ulster Scots" seems to me to be an attempt to reconstruct history and deny the essential Irishness of the people. There is one among us here on the Mudcat that is from Ulster and whose family is what would be described as "Orange". I asked this person a simple question a long time ago. "What do you consider yourself?" The answer without hesitation was "Irish". That is good enough for me. While I may not like the history involved, the fact is that this persons people have lived in Ireland for 400+ years. They are Irish. No matter whatever else they use to identify themselves, they are Irish. But I hear many folks that use the term "Ulster Scots" use it to a political end to lend legitimacy to the claim that Ulster is not the north of Ireland. It seems to me that Annraoi really hit it on the head when he expressed the feeling that the music was being used to further divide folks and redefine what is essentially Scottish and Irish traditional music.

Help me to understand this. I enjoy the music that I have listened to, but it is really the music I have listened to, played, and enjoyed all my life. Let us have a civil discussion of this with those among you who disagree with my comments giving me historical data to refute it.

All the best.......really,

Mick

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 11:39 AM

Teribus,sure the Scots originated in Ulster,as any skoolboy nose.They wandered over to Scotlandaround 400AD didn't they, speaking a Gaelic type language judging by all the place-names.What I thought was weaselly was in referring to them as the original inhabitants ofUlster,which is another thing altogether. What about your man who built them damn great tomb thingies? And the stone axe factory workers on Rathlin? And anyway,weren't people talking about Ulster Scots who talk a special language that sounds a bit like English who live in Northern Ireland now and have a band to prove it; not about hairy Gaelic speaking seamen heading for Argyll in the Dark Ages.Clutching bodhrans, bagpipesa and shortbread tins no doubt

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,The Big Yin
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 03:56 PM

Teribus,

get real the Scots did not originate from Ulster. Read a bit of history and you'll find it was the other way round. Given the shit Ulster has caused the UK and how it's rejects screw up central Scotland the further from Scotland we can remove the place the better.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 06:08 PM

That's it for me,the bampot boat is in.The definitive answer tae the origin o the Scots in Scotland is available tae even the sma'est bit o research. ljc

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Celtic supporter
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 04:23 AM

The big yin By 'rejects' do you mean Celtic football supporters?

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 04:34 AM

Guest The Big Yin:

"get real the Scots did not originate from Ulster"

I refer you to a map just inside the cover of Steele's History of Scotland. It shows a map of the British Isles detailing the demographic composition of the peoples of the British Isles in the year 1000 AD

Then provided that you can be bothered to check the reference - come back and susbtantiate the claim made in your posting above - My bet is that you won't.

Cheers.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,the big yin
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 07:11 AM

ljc - what are you talking about?

Celtic supporter - no.

Teribus - Lost your bet I'm back.

The clue as they say is in the question "Ulster Scots" Scots who moved to Ulster in the 17th century. Not Irishmen who moved to Scotland.

The migration of the Celts across Europe is not quite the same thing.

Cheers

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Celtic supporter
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 07:27 AM

The big yin. Scots who moved from Scotland to Ulster would be 'Scots Ulster'...as in 'Irish Americans'. Ulster people moving to Scotland would be 'Ulster Scots'.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,The Big Yin
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 07:43 AM

Celtic supporter,

I see your point but, as most people understand it, Ulster Scots are sad bastards in Ulster who believe that they are Scots even after a few centuries of occupying the place.

Good Health

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 07:44 AM

But Big Yin that is not what you said in your post was it!!

"get real the Scots did not originate from Ulster."

That as a statement of fact is totally incorrect isn't it.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Celtic supporter.
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 08:46 AM

The big yin. Does your comment 'sad........even after a few centuries of occupying the place' apply to the Irish Americans or the Italian Americans?

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,The Big Yin
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 01:55 PM

teribus - No

celtic supporter - enjoy the game - go on the stripes!

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 04:27 PM

Stripes! Celtic, THE HOOPS LADDIE, THE HOOPS. pADDY jOE.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:08 PM

HAHA GUID YIN PADDY.STRIPES!!! HAHA!!! LJC

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,the big yin
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:11 PM

Sorry ljc & Celtic suporter - I thought that hoops went all the way round stripes go across the back and the front with a break down either side. Or have missed out on another change of strip.

No need to shout ljc and try to write in a language which we can all understand. Oor Wullie and the Broons are not good reference points.

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 04:00 PM

Celtic Supporter
Despite all their protests about the mother country and their nostalgia for it, I think that most Italian / Irish / German / Polish etc. Americans are definitely Americans first and foremost. Their "ethnic origin" title takes very much second place. At least, that is *my* experience. And should we be surprised at this? Especially when applied to those born and bred in America.
Some of my cousins are second generation Americans. They are delighted to be "Irish", but try to tell them they are not Americans and you have serious problems.
Annraoi

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: little john cameron
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 05:17 PM

Oh toodle pip then large chap.Here is tha official uniform of Glasgow Celtic from OFFICIAL site.
Club Colours: Emerald green and white hooped jerseys, white shorts with emerald green trims, and white hose.
I beg your pardon m'lord, i was not shouting,i was laughing loudly at your faux-pas regarding Stripes versus Hoops.A small bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
"Folk wha live in gless hooses shouldnae spoil the broth" (Paw Broon)

Subject: RE: Ulster Scots Music ?
From: GUEST,Gerry Coe
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 08:15 PM

The very latest in this sad saga:
The promotion of "Ulster Scots Traditional Dancing."
I suppose the success of "Riverdance" and its derivatives have got up these peoples noses.
What will they call their answer ? "Sheughshuffle"?
Gerry