BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 09:39 AM

many years ago, I knew a woman who considered herself to be a 'Bhuddist'...but was really trying to practice 'Jainism', which teaches reverence for all life..she even worried about eating eggs, and had to be sure they were unfertilized.....

well, she was noticed one day scooping up cockroaches in her kitchen,and, since she would not squash them or spray them, tossing them outside----into below freezing temperatures!

"All I'm doing is getting them out of my house", she said,"what God does with them after that is not my concern"......

my, the human mind can certainly create any rules it needs to justify whatever it feels like doing

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 09:09 AM

Traditional rabbinical thinking, which is very pacifistic, says that almost all restrictions are off when protecting the life of another. To save a life is the greatest mitzvah possible. The "no matter what it takes", now, that's another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Ringer
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 09:04 AM

"killing simply for vengeance is wrong", says McGrath (twice). But how about killing for justice?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:46 AM

I have the right to defend myself and other people. In certain circumstances that might mean injury or death to another person, but my intention would be defensive, with the injury and death an unwanted side-effect. At all times I should use the minimum possible force necessary.

That's the principle anyway. And of course there is room for disagreement about what is the minimum necessary force. That ranges from people who would claim that it is justifiable to kill as a way of deterring other people to those who would say that avoiding killimng or injury at the cost of being injured or killed is the only way in the longer run to stop the cycle of violence.

But the same basic principle of minimum necessary violence should be common ground - and that includes a recognition that in all circumstances killing simply for vengeance is wrong.

That's the principle anyway. Human beings being fallible, we don't stick to that, and that is very understandable. When we go beyond what is necessary we may be entitled to be forgiven - but we should never try to say that what we did is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 05:33 AM

Objectively no its not justified.
Subjectively yes I would do it and feel (convince myself) justified, both as defence and as revenge - though of course that's just conjecture as I've never had sufficient provocation (and X-fingers never will).
I do know, however, that I will react very violently if my bluff is called. For example, a total stranger kept putting ice down the back of my dress in a pub, and after I asked him several times to stop he asked what was I going to do about it. So I burnt him with my cigarette - just to avoid backing down. Not very clever, as this resulted in a fight etc, but I know that I'd do it again in the same situation. If the stakes were high enough I'm fairly sure I'd kill.
I've also seen that adrenalin thing that some men get when spoiling for a fight. Both my husband and his brother can get very hyped up when riled (not often) - and their breathing changes and you can see by their weird eye-focus thing that there will be trouble. Its a very powerful state of mind and there is no rational thought - so who knows what seems justified under those conditions?
Civilisation is sometimes a very thin veneer isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:55 AM

Yes. Incorrigible. :(

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Chip2447
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:28 AM

In a heartbeat, to protect my life, The lives of my family members, or a stranger on the street.
Chip2447

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:25 AM

Wouldn't it be much more humane to capture and rehabilitate them, Lepus?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: khandu
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:23 AM

Three years ago, a stupid man pulled a box-cutter (before box-cutters became the weapon of choice!) on me in a roadside rest stop in the middle of the night. No one else was there. In fact, I had not met another vehicle for miles. Unfortunately, I was in no mood to be threatened or robbed. I have just gotten a "Dear John" from my fiance and I was enraged at the world. Seeing this doofus threatening me with his absurd, but possibly lethal, weapon unleashed the rage within me. I attacked him. After leaving him bleeding and unconscious, I headed for my car. Before I got there, I became angry again. I went back in to the restroom, took his knife and everything he had in his pockets...9 dollars and two ball-bearings(?) and left. I am no thief, but the indignity of all that pissed me off, so I gave him what he would have given me.

I did not kill him, though by state law, I would have been justified. I did leave him with no nose and a long time to heal.

Five miles down the road, I stopped and threw up, sickened by the violence, his and mine. It took a while for me to reconcile myself with the violence that I displayed.

Had I not been so distraught before the attempted robbery, I would have reacted differently. But, nonetheless, if pressed hard enough, I would kill to defend myself.

khandu

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:10 AM

Nope, Doug. I brush them away. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:07 AM

Thank you, Lepus, for both the condolence and the clarification. To all of you---
See how many shades there are to "killing"?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:05 AM

Lepus, that certainly is an interesting reply anyway.

You don't swat mosquitos?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:02 AM

That's an excellent point, Sorcha, and "with violence" was what I was talking about. I wouldn't even call helping a suffering cat/person/whatever to die "killing," necessarily, unless you, well, used a lead pipe or something.

And sorry to hear about your cat. :(

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:52 PM

Well, I helped kill a cat today........beloved friend for 13 years. It was painless and he was miserable--blind, deaf, brain damaged, incontinent........it was a Last Gift. In that context, I humbly submit that you are wrong, Lepus. I wish I could have done the same for my mother and father, and wish that someone could do the same for me if I am ever in that position.

How about "Is Killing In/With Violence Ever Justifiable"?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: toadfrog
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:42 PM

I have not killed anyone, or been in a position where it appeared to be called for. I did serve in the Army, which could have placed me in a position where this was required. I strongly suspect that the honest answer for me, and most others similarly situated, is that we don't know whether we would, or would not kill another person if a situation required it, or seemed to require it.

Anybody watch In the Bedroom? A good one to see before you post to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:35 PM

Yes, If you endanger my life, or my hamster's.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:32 PM

Well... I think all killing is wrong. People, dogs, cockroaches, geraniums, etc. I still eat meat and vegetables (duh), though, and I'd still slaughter any fleas that decided to make a home on my cat, but I'd feel bad about it. (However, I don't swat mosquitos. ;)) So...

I strongly oppose the idea the idea that any government at any level has the right to take a person's life. Execution in particular is brutal and anachronistic, and the U.S. should join the civilized nations of the world by banning it. But...

Let's say someone killed my... dad. I know that, if I knew who killed him, I would attempt to kill the murderer. Now, if I succeeded in killing this person, I'd know that what I'd done was wrong, and turn myself in to the proper authorities (unless I was in a death penalty state, in which case I would run like Hell.) for punishment. Because killing is wrong. Which, yeah, makes me violent and bad, blah blah blah.

And, of course, I'd do the same (kill) if someone tried to kill me.

But let's say my dad was killed down in Lower Klanistan, and the police arrested the murderer, who was convicted and sentenced to DEATH Well, I'd oppose that.

So... That answer your question, Doug? :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:02 PM

Are we talking exclusively humans? If so, yes, I think I would. We never really know until it comes to the moment........my children are the most precious things in my life and I would like to think I could defend them, but who knows unless the Crunch hits? I just hope it never does.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: khandu
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM

I would do it without hesitation to defend the ones that I love.

khandu

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 06:33 PM

I remember a thread on this subject going by a few months ago, but I can't remember the thread title. Anybody else recall it?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 06:04 PM

In martial arts, at least the forms I have studied and practised, the object is to get out of the way of one's opponent, if at all possible, NOT to kill them, even if they are trying to kill you. Preferably, as you get out of their way, they head right for a brick wall and knock themselves out!**bg**

With that in mind, I would try to take that action first, BUT if it came down to them or me, or my family or pets, I'd do what I could to stop them. I would hope that could be in a non-fatal way.

First thing I do, though, is do my best to never get in such a situation.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:56 PM

Perhaps, Bill D. But I suspect there might be some interesting replies. We'll see.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM

I suspect you'll get a bell shaped curve on this one...

"never".."always"...with a lot of "sometimes" in between...of course the answer is "sometimes"...almost everyone would kill to defend themselves or their family...

Subject: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:47 PM

Bobert made an interesting statement in the thread Fionn started about the execution of a convicted self-confessed killer. I started to pose this question where he posted it, but I didn't want to commandeer Fionn's thread.

If I understood his statement (correct me if I am wrong, Bobert, but I would pose the original question anyway) he intimated that killing someone in self-defence was justified, or words to that effect.

There are many in this forum that seem to be totally opposed to anyone killing anyone else under ANY circumstance. Does that apply if one feels he/she must kill to defend one's own life?

DougR