Thought of the day: right to judge art

Subject: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:49 PM

Here's a story I've heard; I wouldn't be surprised if it's apocryphal, but it still made me think.

A janitor at the Louvre overheard some people who were looking at the Mona Lisa and discussing it critically. He was put out of patience by their discussion and said to them: "You can't judge the Mona Lisa. It's a classic; its place in Art is established. When you come to the Mona Lisa, it's you who are judged, by your reaction to it."

Marion

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:56 PM

I don't know wat I like, but I know it's Art. Moose turds!

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: Grab
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:24 PM

Sure you can judge. For starters, da Vinci never finished it! :-)

"Good art" is a judgement call so that it's different for everyone. Until the artists put values on the definition of "good", we'll never all agree. And that's why the janitor's still a janitor (although if he thinks that "good art" is absolute and he has the final judgement on it, maybe there's a career for him in teaching...)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM

I don't know....I kind of like Art....He's a pretty good guy.....I wonder what he thinks when he finds that the Mona Lisa is inside him.....for shouldn't it be the other way around?

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:43 PM

I judge people by their reaction to opera. ;-)

(or at least their politeness to not say anything)

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:51 PM

The janitor's probably right, but for all the wrong reasons. I remember going for a job interview and, when discussing hobbies and interests, I mentioned I had been to a number of Gilbert and Sullivan operattas recently. After the interview, as I was leaving, one of the panel said quietly not to be too worried about the operettas, because he liked them too!

The principle seems to be that there are certain works declared to be good (Mona Lisa, the Magic Flute, etc) or bad/lower class/unsophisticated (G&S, Andrew Lloyd Webber) and by definition if you have a different view, it is clearly you who are at fault.

Guess what - I don't agree!

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:54 PM

When I was in art school (Painting and Printmaking-VCU) in the 70's, "reaction" was the buzz word and folks were doing all kinds of stuff to get a "reaction" which at the time semmed logical and entertaining. The only problem is that most of this stuff ain't around anymore. Some of it wasn't around 5 minutes after it happened. Well, it's not for me to judge whether or not it was art, but it is my opinion, that time becomes a factor in the determination of the quality of the work. This is the reason that fine artists (as opposed to musicans, actors, etc.) work in mediums that while not be permanent, strive toward permanency. The Dadaist movement of the early 20th century led by Duchant, who proclaimed that "art is shit", and the impressionists, were scorned by the old schoolers, just as the Op artist (Litzenstien, Johns, Pollack, et all) had to fight off the aging impressionist and cubists. Appreciation comes from seeing and feeling art and knowing some thing of the processes that went into the art, the history, the lives of the artists. This is one or two steps beyond reacting. One can look at a Van Eyke and not know that the painted jewels are actually constructed from the canvas out with successive glaze coats with very little pigment and actaully have relief and allow light to enter each on, as a jewel, and radiate toward the eye while picking up those flecks of pigment. Knowing that, makes ones experience of seeing the painting, appreciative long after the reaction has subsided.

Just the bobert's opinion...

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 03:02 PM

Well Bobert I was wonderin' then what you might think about this Elvis paintin' on black velvet that I was thinking of getting for Cletus.......I mean it does seem to be standing the test of time and all.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: swirlygirl
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 03:08 PM

I think a lot of things are considered art because they express the sentiments/techniques in a way which critics deem to be good representations of the style....

There're a lot of artists who I can't stand like Van Gogh and Monet, but I can appreciate. I just wouldn't want one hanging in my house, if you know what I mean...

I can appreciate the technique, the meaning, the thought and sentiments behind the work....and sometimes this can only be gained through an understanding of the artists's life, whatever medium they choose to express themselves in...

:)

xxx

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: JenEllen
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 03:24 PM

A gentleman once leaned over my shoulder at an exhibit and whispered "Boy, he sure used a lot of paint on that one..." (VanGogh's Cypresses). You get back exactly what you put in. Art is a mirror just like literature, if an ass peers into it, you can't expect an apostle to look out.

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: GUEST,Bardford
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 03:25 PM

I've been thinkin' about writing a folk song called "What is Art?." It'll be about an artist working on a painting called "What is Folk Music?".

Has there been any discussion about the topic in these threads? I don't suppose anyone might be able to help me out....

Ducking under the desk, Bardford

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 03:29 PM

Spawz: A perfect gift for Clet. And if you run into one of those "Elvis-on-Velvet-Buy-One-Get-A-Second-One-For-A-Buck" Sales, pick one up fir me to give Rufus for his birthday. He's got one in all three rooms in the trailer but says he wants one fir the Rossevelt house. Speaking of which, ol' Rufus said that he and Cletus just finishing a new song entitled "Out House Rock". He played a little of it to me and I think it stinks, but don't tell the boyz...okay?

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: Amos
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 04:09 PM

The power of the very best is that people who have been asses peer in and find apostles looking back out at them!! Sadly, a rare power :>).

A

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: RichM
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 04:17 PM

You want to understand art?
Plant a flower.
Watch it grow.

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 04:25 PM

The janitor is exactly right--and his idea is very French--the idea that you any tourist on a tour package can judge the great masterpieces of art is very American--

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: Amos
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 04:36 PM

I'm not sure whether "exactly right" and "very French" can really survive in the same sentence, M. Ted. But we're verging on religous issues, so I will veer off! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: SeanM
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 05:13 PM

Everyone has a right to judge art by their own tastes. Everyone has a right to judge music by their own tastes. To claim otherwise is specious - by simply viewing or listening to a piece, you create internal judgements.

The respect that these judgements merit in others is the point of contention.

M

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:10 PM

I like the idea that people are tested and judged by the paintings and the music they think they are evaluating. And in day to day life, if I find someone sneers at something that I value and admire greatly, there are only two things that can happen. Either I consider whether I'm wrong about the work in question, or my opinion of that person goes down. Similarly when they admire something I think is crap, either my opinion of them goes down, or I have another look at what they are admiring.

I can't see those kind of judgements as irrelevant. The crucial thing is how much respect I have for that person's judgement. (And I tend to have very little respect indeed for professional critics in any field.)

Everyone's got a right to think what they like, and tell the world. And everyone else had the right to think that what they are saying is total rubbish.

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:12 PM

Verging on religious issues, Amos? Too right! as the Aussies are supposed to say. When I praise a work of art and my neighbor disparages it, that neighbor drops down in my list of favorite people. The correct view should be "To each, his own," but it seldom is.
Like all good tourists in Paris, I went to the Louvre. I saw a number of pictures that were significant to me and some I still remember. "Mona Lisa" wasn't one of them- it looked like it had been badly restored and probably was. There were also those galleries of monster-sized heroic military paintings by French artists. They deserved archival storage in the catacombs, but not public exhibition. To me, they said something about the French, mush as the French Academy does. Now I guess I have tred on sensibilities verging on the religious.

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:49 PM

Anyone who wishes to judge me is welcome to do so; I've been judged by many people, even those who don't know me. However, I'm not sure if I appreciate Mr. Greenhouse referring to me as a moose turd.

"Art" as a cultural artifact is a different thing entirely, and I expect opinions on any given item, be it a painting, piece of music, dance, etc., are entirely subjective and dependent upon an individual's background, personal taste, frames of reference, and other such buzz words. In other words, as somebody once said "I don't know what Art is, but I'll know it when I see it". (somebody must have said that, right?)

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: RichM
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 07:28 PM

But it's good mosse turd, art :)

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: RichM
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 07:29 PM

Now that I think of it, that should be 'mousse' turd....

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:54 PM

If some new acquaintance says something about a good friend that seems insulting, I'm likely to take that personally. I'm not indifferent to it. They've got a right to feel that way, but I've got a right to feel they'll never be a real friend of mine.

And there are works of art, music, songs, that I feel the same way about. By no means all the ones I'm fond of and admire, but some. If someone really doesn't see them as valuable, there is a gulf between us.

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: mack/misophist
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:34 PM

So many different people have said it; it's impossible to count them all. If you want to know what good art is, look at a lot of pictures....hundreds, thousands. It WILL sink in eventually. And 99 times out of a hundred, you'll agree with the others who have done the same. The only thing to keep in mind is that art evokes something. If it makes you want to puke it's probably art, just not pretty. Francis Bacon (the modern one)did some wonderful stuff - ugly and scary though it was.

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: swirlygirl
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:03 AM

I don't like the "ass in ass out" thing at all...

Sometimes you just need to be given a little more information to enable you to appreciate things...doesn't make you an ass...

:)

xxx

Subject: RE: Thought of the day: right to judge art
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM

Art is created to be experienced, not judged--it is neither necessary, appropriate, or even relevant to assign a value to it--we are not insurance adjusters--