Knife at Texas School Issue

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Melani
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 10:42 PM

Here in beautiful Oakland, CA, a similar case occurred when an elementary school girl (8 or 10, I forget) accidentally grabbed her mother's lunch bag, which contained a knife for cutting fruit. When she discovered it at lunchtime, she took it to her teacher and explained the mistake, and was expelled. I believe her mother sued, or threatened to.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 08:14 PM

Hi Jed, I'm sorry that your state (home of the toxic texan) has shamed themselves & you.
Knee JERK reactions & responses to situations that aren't to be bothered with make it very easy not to have to handle people on a human/humane level according to each case. Some people love to have their hands tied so they can go through life blind, dumb & in total unaware bliss of any body or thing around them.
IMHO the school district did not come to their senses, they bailed themselves out of a situation as best they could with trying to save as much face as possible (& the cost of national embrassement not to say the legal expendures & award payments if found to be the simpletons they apear to be) without the decency to admit how bad their aim was when they shot from the hip. It should have cost them their right to ever hold a place of authority unless it comes to judge & sentence themselves.
Barry

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: kendall
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 08:04 PM

Am I to understand that the boy was an honor roll student, so, he should be excused?

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:14 AM

"I was only obeying orders" is no defence for doing something you know to be unjust.

That's exactly the point where you still got it wrong, McGrath. You have to differentiate between 'may not' and 'must not' in following rules and orders. If someone is given the order to do something which is merely 'unjust' (s)he may not follow that order without being punished for that but also cannot be punished for following it.

If the order is to do something that is a crime you must not follow that order and can be punished for following it (all according to the Nuremberg principles).

In this case, the treatment of the student was injust but was not a crime and therefore "I am just following the rules" is a valid defense in the sense of the Nuremburg principles. Whatever you may think of these persons they cannot be punished for following the rules.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 08:49 AM

Interesting Wesley........I actually did have a company request complete files from both high school and college, both transcripts and any other "information still on file." This was a very conservative and somewhat staid Fortune 500. I had been hired, but this information was mandatory as a condition of employment which I found odd but not out of character for this company. I think it was more a case of checking to see if I had lied or something.

But I do agree, that "Permanent Record" thing was a huge club that school officials drug out all the time. Seems to still be popular. Several of the teachers at a school where I taught used it regularly.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 06:38 PM

McGrath, just a note to say that what I said about Canada is limited to my experience in Calgary. Other jurisdictions set their own rules; there is no Canadian "standard."
I am glad that the Dallas case is settled.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 05:46 PM

Guest at 3:24 refers to the students "Permanent Record". Has anyone ever seen their "Permanent Record" ? Ever had that dreaded "Permanent Record" come back to haunt them at a job interview or when they were trying to get a loan?? That was the biggest fake out that our schools ever held over our heads.

Just imagine - you're trying to get a job when the guy says "I'd like to hire you buddy - but I've been reading your Permanent Record......"

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 05:36 PM

Well at least somebody showed some common sense!

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: SharonA
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 05:19 PM

I had written to the Dallas Morning News, and received this reply via e-mail:

"...Confusion about "butter knife" vs. "bread knife" is something we heard a lot. This non-serrated knife was 10.5 inches long, it had a wooden handle but with a rounded edge at the tip. Butter knives, I have come to know, are either very short knives (often placed beyond the plate in a place setting) or a wide knife with a crook handle used with a butter dish to dollop the butter on to a plate. We originally thought the knife was more like a dinner knife -- since most of us had never seen a non-serrated bread knife before -- so the reporter went back to the police department to get a complete description!

"In any case, today's news (on DallasNews.com) shows the school district came to its senses and put the honor student back into class today. Thanks to the help -- we'd like to think -- of several of our letter writers!"

Letters Editor, The Dallas Morning News

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:24 PM

from Thursday's Dallas newspaper (sorry if there are goofy breaks): "Student expelled for bread knife to return to class

03/21/2002

By LORI PRICE / The Dallas Morning News

Taylor Hess, an honors student at L.D. Bell High School in Hurst who was expelled earlier this month after school officials found a bread knife in the bed of his pickup, will return to school Friday.

In lieu of an appeal hearing regarding the disciplinary matter and the fate of Taylor, 16, Hurst-Euless-Bedford school officials said Thursday that they will uphold the mandatory expulsion handed down March 4, but will reduce the length of the expulsion to the amount of time the student has already spent in the district's disciplinary alternative education program.

Taylor spent five days in the program. His original punishment was set for one calendar year in the Tarrant County Juvenile Justice Alternative Education Program.

District officials said the expulsion will not appear on Taylor's permanent record.

The district had planned to make the recommendation for the reduced expulsion time at a Thursday hearing, but came to an agreement with the Hess family and their attorney's prior to the scheduled time of the hearing.

"The motivation of the district in this student discipline matter involving Taylor Hess is, and always has been, to provide a safe school environment for all the district's students," said Gene Buinger, H-E-B schools superintendent. "The Hess family agrees with the district's motivation to keep schools safe and appreciates the amicable resolution of Taylor's discipline matter."

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:10 PM

It's over but not for pedants, Wesley.

"designed to cut or stab another by being thrown,"

One of the rules of statutory interpretation is an assumption that the legislators are competent enough to not be redundant. In other words, if words are used, they are presumed to have an intended meaning. Presumably the omitted language before the above excerpt refers to a knife. All knives are designed to cut. Using this rule, a violation requires that he have brought a knife that was designed to cut another, and not just capable of cutting another, or designed to cut anything. (In other words, it would be an improper interpretation to conclude that the statute (ignoring stabbing and throwing), could be interpreted as "[a knife] designed to cut.") Bread knives are not included within this staute as it has been quoted.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: SharonA
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 02:38 PM

Thanks, Wesley. Here's a reprint of the report:

Student expelled for bread knife to return to class
03/21/2002 Associated Press

BEDFORD - An honors student expelled from a North Texas school after a bread knife was discovered in the back of his pickup truck will return to classes Friday after school district officials reduced his punishment.

Taylor Hess, expelled from L.D. Bell High School in Hurst two weeks ago, will return after an agreement between Hurst-Euless-Bedford school district officials and his parents was reached Thursday.

"Actually, what I was hoping for is exactly what I've got," Robert Hess, the youth's father, said after the hearing.

Since his expulsion, Taylor Hess had been attending alternative school. Under the deal between his parents and school officials, Hess' expulsion will be reduced from the rest of the school year to time served.


However, I hope that this is not "over" in the sense that nothing would be done to change (or at least to clarify) this weapons code.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 02:28 PM

I'm seeing reports in the dallas Morning News that Taylor Hess has been reinstated for time served. It's over.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:37 PM

"designed to cut or stab another by being thrown,"

You're not being ridiculous SharonA. (Well, no more ridiculous than a lawyer doing her job would be.) The more I look at that definition as it was provided from the newspaper, the more vague and ambiguous it seems. That boy needs a lawyer.

This knife was not "designed to cut another" person. It was "designed to cut another" loaf of bread. Under the definition we have, you can't tell whether a knife needs to be designed to cut another (person), or just be capable of cutting another (person), and be designed to cut anything. The word "or" in that statute really screws things up.

Like McGraw, I wonder whether the newspaper definition is wrong, but it's quite possibly accurate. Rocket scientists rarely run for state legislatures.

If he'd kept his mouth shut, and this was an open bed pickup, they couldn't nail him for possession anyway. If this is a penal statute, does he have no right to counsel before being questioned by "authorities?" (I really don't know; I would guess probably not.) The penalty is severe enough.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:35 PM

My point with the Nurembeg Principle wasn't to equate the situation. But if we rightly expect that a soldier has a duty to disobey orders in certain situations, we should expect no less of any other people in authority, where the risk is far less.

"I was only obeying orders" is no defence for doing something you know to be unjust. And in this case the superintendent specifically said that he believed that the way he was applying this rule was unjust.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: SharonA
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 11:19 AM

Wolfgang: It may have been designed to cut food at the table, but I thought the Texas code said the illegal knife had to be designed to cut another, as in another person. I'm nitpicking, I know, but if they're going to be silly about following a rule, I thought I'd just point out a silly reason for not having to follow it.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 07:07 AM

If you follow the link provided in the first post you can seen the knife being described as "10-inch bread knife". That is not a knife to butter bread with (though it could be done) and contrary to what some have written it is designed to cut.

McGrath's citation of the Nuremberg principles is completely out of proportion and they do not apply here at all. If obeying the rules/orders is a crime you may not obey them without being criminal yourself. But here following the rules is just silly and following silly orders/rules is not a crime. If there would not be a very big difference still between silly behaviour and criminal behaviour the prisons would have to be closed for overcrowding.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: MarkS
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:20 PM

Greg and Dicho
We must be of the same vintage (and a fine vintage it is, too.

I carried a knife to school every day I went to school from third grade to graduate work, and I still carry one today. Started as a Cub Scout knife, went to electricians knife, and now it is a Swiss Army knife. Seem to feel naked without it, but the only place without it these days is on an airliner.

sigh

Mark

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:31 PM

Jed Marum: Was there anything in the news about how this knife was discovered?

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:25 PM

New Zealand? Don't they have all those orcs?

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:22 PM

Wise words, McGraw, and food for thought. Admittedly, however, my thoughts are straying from finding and fixing, and tending towards daydreams about New Zealand.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:13 PM

Those guys who did the September 11th thing would have been OK under those rules. The Canadian ones quoted sound a lot more sensible, leaving it open for interpretation, instead of having strict guidelines that could exclude relatively harmless things and allow in lethal ones. (Nothing is completely harmless which is why "zero tolerance" in this context isn't just silly, it's futile.)

The real way to deal with kids killing each other in school isn't this way. What's needed is to try and understand why it happens - issues like bullying and hyper-competitiveness, and disruptions in the community and in the family structure and so forth. Things like that just don't happen in most places and most times. It's not just random, like lightning striking in one place rather than another. More like cholera - there are reasons why it happens in some places and times and not elsewhere and else when; and if they can be identified they can be fixed.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 05:41 PM

Greg, your question is rude and impertinent, etc. - to an old curmudgeon who went to grade school in the 1930s. The area was southwestern US. We had a lot of freedom. We wore bluejeans to school. When I was transferred to Canada, I had kids of grade school age; it was against school rules for them to wear bluejeans. I thought that was silly! I believe sheath knives went out in the 60s or 70s here. There are problems in the schools here in areas where the immigrant population is high. Several stabbings. I believe we have a "5-inch" law here for "carrying" and I believe all are barred in the schools- but I think that they allow latitude since I haven't heard of a case like it here.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 05:33 PM

By the way "Guest". My understanding is that your guess was correct. The knife involved was sharp. Without a point and curved at the end. But sharp. Not exactly a butter knife by any means.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:53 PM

First off let me start off by saying that "Zero Tolerence" laws all seem rather silly when they are applied.

But the let me go on to say that this whole situation would have been avoided if someone had checked the back of that pickup truck to see what was in it. There are a lot { please note that I've said a lot - not all - a lot } of pickup drivers that use their trucks as trash dumps. Just last week I was behind a pickup that was spewing large chunks of pink insulation. It's nothing to be behind one that McDonald wrappers and other trash is flying out of. I don't think it's too much to ask for a driver to take a moment to see what he will be spilling all over the roadway. A ten second glance would have told him that there was a knife in the back of his truck. Problem solved.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:29 PM

GUEST asks: "(Texans use 10" butter knives?)"

I've heard that everything is big in Texas (at least, that's the reputation *G*) so 10" actually seems a little small for a Texan's butter knife.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:24 PM

Kevin says: "I thought The Simpsons was a comical exaggeration of what actually happens in small town America. This story suggests it's close to the truth."

That's why "The Simpsons" caught on so quickly and has retained its popularity all these years: it is sooooo close to the truth!!!

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:04 PM

You can do a lot with this definition. "one with a blade longer than 5 and a half inches that is "designed to cut or stab another by being thrown,"

First, does it mean a knive advertised as a throwing knife? Does it mean any knife that can have that effect? Does the throwing requirement apply only to the stabbing action, or to the cutting ability as well?

I suspect the best, but not mandatory interpretation is that it is any knife that can cut, or which can stab by being thrown. Therefore, I suspect what it means is any knife (greater than 5 1/2 inches) with a sharp blade or a point.

So as I thought about this, I came up with this guess: The knife is not a butter knife; it is a bread knife. It is not serrated, but it probably is sharp. It may well have a point. But it is not a butter knife. (Texans use 10" butter knives?)

Next issue: The kid's a good kid. Principal knows it. Principal does not apply the rule. Another kid brings a knife, also claiming it was an accident. The kid is not a good kid. The kid is of a different ethnic origin than the first. Guess what happens to the principal, the school district, and the insurance company or the district's self-insurance program?

Believe me, I do not defend non-thinking. If this story was as you people have described it (dull, pointless, butter knife), I would quit my job as the principal before expelling the kid, and I would expect anyone of principle to do the same. (Just as I would quit as a judge before imposing a life sentence on a trivial nonviolent "third strike.)

But the facts are getting all mushed up here, folks.

(All sorts of intricacies from unknown facts. For example, if I were the principal, and the security guard found that in the back of the kids' pickup (an open bed), and I knew that this was not a troublemaker, I would call him in, and tell him what would happen to him if he admitted that he brought a sharp pointed ten inch knife to the school, then ask him of he brought that knife to the school. Many of you would probably handle it differently.)

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 03:10 PM

Thread drift, but relevant thread drift: Nuremberg Principles - see VI and VII. To sum up, no matter who give the orders, if they are criminal you are criminal if you obey them.

Bureaucrats in the education system don't have quite such a tough duty to follow. But they've still got a duty to resist injustice.

Reading that report it looks pretty clear that this School Superintendent Gene Buinger is playing politics, and using this young man as an instrument without any regard for his interests. I thought The Simpsons was a comical exaggeration of what actually happens in small town America. This story suggests it's close to the truth. It's a Simpsons plotline.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Louie Roy
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 03:07 PM

I think everyone is forgetting about 9/11 when the most cowardly act in american history was committed by box cutters.This honor student knew the rules and so did his parents and I for one commend the school for following the law and taking the action that the law allowed.yes when I started school in 1929 at a country school many students carried a gun and knives to school because many walked at least 2 miles and several rode 6 to 7 miles on horseback with the rifle in the scabbard for their protection against wild animals that were encountered,but that was a different era.Today there is a different problem and maybe some of the policies dealing with this are extreme and unfair but this school violents has to stop to many innocent chidren are being killed or injured for life by some of these honor students.Louie Roy

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 02:50 PM

I thought soldiers in life and death situations are bound in HONOR to OBEY all orders, whether it leads them to commit war crimes are not. What they are bound by to disobey is their own conscience... but that's thread creep...

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 02:40 PM

If the rules say you have no alternative but to do something you know is unjust, that is when you refuse to obey them, and they can sack you if they want to.

If soldiers in a life and death situation are bound in honour and duty to refuse to obey orders to commit war crimes, that has to apply to school superintendents in a matter like this.

But in any case, as has being pointed out, this was not a knife which had been "designed to cut or stab another by being thrown", so he didn't even need to defy the rules.

Though is that rule misquoted in that report, with an "or" being missed out? It seems to say it's alright to have a knife so long as it isn't designed to be thrown. Crocodile Dundee with his machete would have been fine, it appears.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:54 PM

The thing I don't understand about this situation is that a butter knife does not fit the definition of "an illegal knife, one with a blade longer than 5 and a half inches that is 'designed to cut or stab another by being thrown,' according to the Texas Penal Code" (quoting from the article in the DallasNews, linked by Jed). The blade length is longer than 5-and-a-half inches, but it's not designed to cut or stab!! It's designed to take butter from the butter dish and spread it on bread!!!!!! As far as I can tell, the school superintendent is not acting in accordance with the law, and I don't understand how he can throw up his hands and say "I wish I didn't have to do this" when, under the law as stated, he doesn't have to.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:45 PM

Song, definitely! No knives at school, or they will send you over... No knives at school, is not enough of a good rule, OOh I have a knife, girl, yes you know it's true, I might use my knife, girl, just to butter you!

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:43 PM

Sorry all, much as I think this is the silliest thing since sliced bread (or should that be buttered bread) you can't ask administrators to violate laws they think are stupid, even those they KNOW are stupid. They are just as stuck as that kid. It would be NICE if, given the definition of "knife" by the law, the admin could have decided that a butter knife in a car is not a weapon inside the school, and thus decided that the law didn't apply - but that isn't really their decision, it's the courts' - but the poor student is FAR from "making too much of it" and the admin people should be out in force on the side of the student.

In the US, an honor student can be a) a student on the honor roll (akin to Le Tableau D'Honneur in French school) which means grades above a certain point. But they can also be a student in an honors course, akin to an advanced seminar. The basic distinction blurs but you have "honor students" in the former case and "honorS students" in the latter, usually. Either way, they aren't the kind of dérailleur that need additional discipline!

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:39 PM

Kevin (McGrath): An "honor student" in the US is generally regarded as one with, as you say, an especially good record (scholastic and behavior), and often one who has been selected by faculty for membership in the National Honor Society. See the "Selection Criteria" section of this page about the National Honor Society: http://dsa.principals.org/nhs/index.html#anchor641665

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:19 PM

"Unless the superintendent was misquoted in the extreme, he didn't think he did the right thing either".

In other words he's a coward, and not fit to be in any position of authority. And that goes for anyone in authority who is willing to do something unjust because the rules say they should.

MTed goes on to say "I doubt that a Texan is going to be less independent" than a school superintendent in Philadelphia. Just shows how misleading stereotypes can be. You get cowards in Texas like any other place.

But here's a query - does "an honor student" mean a student with a specially good record, gold stars or whatever, or one without any bad things on the record, or a student doing some particular kind of course? (cf "A-level student" which just means that at the end of the years they are going to sit a particular sort of exam.)

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:04 PM

Dicho, how old are you, if its not a rude question? As I referred to earlier, sheathknives were standard in my English school in the 50's, but I think it became banned by the 60's. When are you talking about?

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 12:56 PM

Now what about that old lady in the seat next to mine on the 'plane, plying her (plastic) knitting needles? Now she is a real threat!
When I was in grade school, all the boys carried knives. Some of us carried hunting knives on our belt. I never heard of them being used on anything but defenseless apples and the occasional tree.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 12:45 PM

Interesting reading the Ontario rules. I could have had people expelled from my school under any one of those seven counts, had I been the supergrass type. Glad I didn't, would have wrecked a few lives. Possibly might have done some good too, but I very much doubt it.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 12:27 PM

Hmmm... So under Texas law, any kid who's home-schooled can't pick up a knife in the kitchen to chop peppers with... right???

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 12:25 PM

I believe laws, rules or other codes - the administrators should have had the brains and the BALLS to handle the matter quietly on their own - and not taken such ludicrous and extreme steps.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Devilmaster
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM

Jonathan - Its not about school administrators. Its about bad rule making from the state legislature.

In Ontario's safe school policy the guidelines are very clear. I read:

"A pupil will be expelled for any of the following infractions, subject to mitigating factors, detailed below:
1. possessing a weapon, including possessing a firearm;
2. Using a weapon ot cause or threaten bodily harm;
3. Committing physical harm to another requiring treatment by a doctor;
4. committing sexual assault;
5. Trafficking in weapons or illegal drugs;
6. Committing robbery;
7. Giving alcohol to a minor;

Etc, Etc, Etc. there are 7 more infractions for expulsions. but you get the idea. Now we allow for mitigating factors, which is an escape clause for something like this. Perhaps Texas doesn't have that. So you have to go by the letter of the law. The state makes the law. If the administators disregard the law of the state, they become libel. No matter how dumb this ruling sounds.

What they should be doing, is calling the Capitol to state the particulars and ask for the Governor to rule on it. Then they should rewrite the law.

Steve

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:58 AM

Maybe INOBU will write a song about this injustice, and Sorcha Dorca will record it. How about it, Larry? As the bumper sticker says, "What a pity stupidity isn't painful."

Seamus

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:57 AM

Wow, things have changed. I remember, back in the third grade, a teacher merely confiscating my brass knuckles. No punishment or anything. Has the world gone MAD?! ;)

But yeah, the butter knife thing is silly. Texans. That's what hot air does to a brain. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:49 AM

I'll betcha dollars to doughnuts that the kid had a tire iron in that truck.... which could do a heck of a lot more damage than a butter knife could.

I'm envisioning the Sharks and the Jets (from "West Side Story") going after each other with butter knives: "Come get me too, Chino... and slather me all over with margarine!"

Sheesh! What a woild.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: GUEST,Jonathan
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:21 AM

Does there have to be a clause in the rule? Is there no common sense left in the world or must school administrators be forced to put their nose in a rule book?

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:14 AM

I'm reminded of the scene in "Crocodile Dundee" in which the hero (who is being mugged) pulls out his 14-inch Bowie knife and says "that's not a knife...THIS is a knife". So Texas law allows a student to carry a pocket knife with a 5 1/2-inch blade? The Swiss Army knife I usually carry has a 2 1/2-inch blade, and its not allowed on US airlines. The K-bar I carried in Vietnam (and mostly used for opening cans of C-rations) has a 5 3/4-inch blade. A 5 1/2-inch pocket knife is a BIG knife.

So the kid gets expelled for having a 10-inch, dull, pointless, butterknife "in his possession", but will undoubtably be allowed to carry a .357 magnum pistol or 10mm automatic holstered on his hip in the meantime...or maybe he has to wait until he's 18 to do that. This is beyond logical...in fact, it is beyond the boundries of stupidity.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Devilmaster
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:01 AM

Well, being a trustee for my local school board, Ontario here has enacted a safe schools policy which came into effect this past September.

I understand the reasons for the actions, but I am appalled that there is no clause to allow for something like this. Someone at the State Capitol really didn't think this one out.

But I'm gonna check into our laws, just to make sure something like this would never happen in our province.

Steve

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Watson
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:44 AM

Comparatively trivial, but a current story from Birmingham in the UK is that a girl took her mother's jewellery to school to show it to her friends. Quite rightly, the school confiscated the jewellery and put it in their safe.
Now they refuse to give it back to the parents unless they wait until the end of term or prosecute their own daughter for theft.
Of course, they couldn't possibly do anything else - rules are rules. Either the items belong to the girl, in which case the school claims justification in keeping them, or else they are stolen. "You can't have it both ways", they say.