BS: We've always done it that way.

Subject: We've always done it that way.
From: GUEST,Knappo
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 08:56 AM

Don’t know if anyone has seen this already. I just ran across it and thought it was pretty funny. Enjoy! Cheers Tom

Does the statement, “We’ve always done it that way” ring any bells...?

The US standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That’s an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that’s the way they built them in England, and English expatriates designed the US Railroads.

Why did the English build them like that?

Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that’s the gauge they used.

Why did “they” use that gauge then?

Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons and carriages, which used that wheel spacing.

Okay! Why did the wagons have that particular odd wheel spacing?

Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of the old, long distance roads in England, because that’s the spacing of the wheel ruts.

So who built those old rutted roads?

Imperial Rome built the first long distance roads in Europe (and England) for their legions. The roads have been used ever since.

And the ruts in the roads?

Roman war chariots formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.

The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is derived from the original specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot. And bureaucracies live forever.

So the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse’s ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Imperial Roman war chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.

Now the twist to the story...

When you see a Space Shuttle sitting on its launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at their factory at Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs would have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line from the factory happens to run through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than the railroad track, and the railroad track, as you now know, is about as wide as two horses’ behinds.

So, a major Space Shuttle design feature of what is arguably the world’s most advanced transportation system was determined over two thousand years ago ... by the width of a horse’s ass.

... and you thought being a HORSE’S ASS wasn’t important!

Annoying brackets indicating “this message was forwarded” removed. --JoeClone, 19-Apr-02.

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: GUEST,Knappo
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 08:57 AM

Ah crap. What happened? Sorry about the weird spacing, I copy it into the thread, guess I didn't do something right. Sorry, Tom

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 09:20 AM

Well Knappo, this is one of those "semi-truth, pretty much bullshit" things that get passed around the net on a regular basis. Here's some reading from the Snope's Urban Legend site.....click here.

Not surprisingly, this has been posted before back in '99 and many of us were kinda' sad when we found out then that it was mainly BS......One of those nice things you'd really like to believe!

Sorry.....

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 10:11 AM

Well, it's OK back as far as the horse-drawn tramways...! 'Course, if Brunel had had his way, we'd all be riding on 8'00" tracks now, powered by compressed air.

BTW, anyone read "A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!" by (I think) Harry Harrison?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: Watson
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 10:12 AM

Thanks Spaw
We get so much of this crap cluttering up our in-boxes, I always enjoy debunking things like this, and Snopes is always the first place to check.
It's still a funny story though!

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: Watson
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 10:19 AM

There's more here.

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 10:32 AM

And of course Watson, that IS the thing here.....It's a good tale with enough truth to still make it enjoyable. Posted before by rich, but worth the reading again regarding the situation on American Railroads which was a complete mess......

In "A Treasury of Railroad Folklore" (1953) Botkin and Harlow discuss the gauge issue in the USA (they call it "gage") in some detail over 6 pages of text. It is true that the first railroads in Massachusetts were built at 4' 8 1/2" because they bought their equipment from the Stephensons of England. Botkin and Harlow say, "The legend that this was the exact width of the Roman Imperial chariot wheel-tread will probably persist to the end of time, like that other belief that General Forrest said, "Git thar fustest with the mostest.""
The Mohawk & Hudson made its gage 4'9" , 1/2" wider than the MA lines. The Delaware & Hudson came up from Pennsylvania with 2 "standard gages", one at 6' and the other at 4'3". In Baltimore, Peter Cooper built his B & O locomotive "Tom thumb at 4' 6". IN Pennsylvania at the time there were lines of , 3', 3'8", 4'3", 4'9", 4'9 1/4", 4' 9 1/2". 4' 9 3/4". The New Brunswick & Canada that crossed Maine from Quebec to NB was 3'6". In 1879 that dimension was standardized for what became the Canadian Pacific. The Hecla & Torch Lake in the copper country of Michigan was built at 4' 1". Another CAnadian line that ran from Montreal to Portland, Maine was 5' 6". That line was a forerunner of the Canadian National RR. It was even suggested the British favored having a different gage in Canada from the US, to make it harder to invade. The state of Maine was a mess with all these gages, including the 4' 8 1/2" on lines connecting to Boston. 4' 10" was favored in upper New Jersey and spread to Ohio where the legislature once passed a law declaring that the legal gage for all railroads in that state, but it was pretty much ignored. In the northeast as the significance of interconnecting rail transport became apparent the 4' 8 1/2" began to predominate. The Pennsylvania RR used 4' 9" for a number of years before changing. You could run standard stock on 4' 9" although it was a "little loose" and some accidents happened.

In the South 5' became the standard, except for the 5' 6" in Louisiana and a few 3 footers around. Up north the major rebel was the Erie who ran 6' gage through the curves of the upper Delaware River and to Lake Erie. They then struck out for Cincinatti. The Erie also convinced the the Ohio & Mississippi to put in 6' so in 1857 there was a 6' line from New York all the way to St. Louis. Some of the wide gage roads even laid a third track on some of their lines to accomodate interconnection with the smaller "standard" gages.

When the Union Pacific was being planned, President Lincoln was asked to set the gage. The few RR in California at the time were 5', same as in the South. Lincoln chose that, but raised a firestorm of protest from the northeastern railroads about the expense of changing. Congress then overruled the President. In 1871 there were 23 different gages in the USA ranging from 3' to 6'. By the mid 1880's there were 25 as a number of 2' lines sprang up in Maine and an Oregon logging company built an 8' one. Cincinatti alone had half a dozen gages. For economy reasons quite a few miles of bed had been built at 3'. The Cotton Belt RR and the Denver & Rio Grande both started out as narrow gage lines.

After the Civil War it became apparent that the southern lines would have to change to what had gradually become the standard 4' 8 1/2". 13,000 miles of main line, 1800 locomotives and some 40,000 cars had to be converted, so there was no big rush to get going. The Illinois Central was the first. After the last broad gage train passed on the evening of Aug 1, 1881, a big crew proceeded by torchlight to change the road bed. By noon the next day the 600 miles of track south of Cairo Illinois had been changed. A few other followed suit and the final big change cam on the weekend of May 29, 1886. the largest line in the south the L & N had over 8700 men ready to go early Sunday morning. One shop reportedly changed 19 locomotives, 18 passenger cars, 11 cabooses, 1710 freight cars and some other equipment between sunup and sundown. It appears that political and business clout were major factors in deciding which gage ultimately became the uniform standard.

Check out Botkin and Harlow's account for lots more interesting details.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 11:29 AM

Spaw:

You're a champ!! Most interesting piece of history i've read all week! Thanks.

A

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: GUEST,Knappo
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 07:15 AM

Aw Shucks! I hate it when the truth keeps getting in the way. It did seem a little too neat and simple. Fun anyway. I should write a book, "Tom's Neat and Simple History of the World; Interesting if not Exactly True"

Peace, Tom

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 07:54 AM

Yeah Knapps, that's the same way we all felt on the other thread when this came up back then. Damn truth keeps fouling up a good story!!! Another of my favorites that sounded sooo good was the word "posh" coming from the British upper class sailing to and from India with the initials meaning "port out, starboard home" referring to cabin selection. Sadly this one too is crappola.............

Ah well............

spaw

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 08:45 AM

Nice article on the UK gaueges and Brunel here

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: Troll
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 10:47 PM

The railway that conntcts Russia and China is of two different gages. When you reach the border, you don't change coaches. Oh no! You change wheels or trucks to be more precise.
The coaches are un-coupled and moved to a huge building that can hold 40 or 50 coaches at once. There, the pins which hold the coach and trucks together are removed and the coach is jacked up. A new set of trucks is rolled in on a parallel set of tracks, the coach is shifted the foot or so necessary for re-alignment of holes, lowered into place, the locking pin is inserted and the train is slowly reassembled.
The whole process takes anywhere from one to five hours. We went through it twice last summer. Once we had to leave the train but the second time we were allowed to stay aboard.
The gages are different because the Chinese were afraid of a Russian invasion when they first began building a national railway system. They didn't want the Russians to be able to use the Chinese rail roads to move war materiel.
Hence, the difference.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:18 AM

G'day all,

I yhink one of the weakest points in this little tranche of urban myth is GUEST, Knappo's (or his source's) line " ... that's the way they built them in England, and English expatriates designed the US Railroads."

In Australia, almost by definition, "... English expatriates designed the ... Railroads." But - I live, these days, in New South Wales ... where there has ahrdly ever been, despite assorted pressure towards the contary, an rail line of sunstance in any guage but "standard" ... 4' 8½" / 1.435 m. (Some private tram lines on mining sites have been various narrow guages.)

I spent many of my formative years (in music too, I must say) in Tasmania, our Island State ... where they have had Government and major private lines in: 2' 0" / 2' 6" / 3' 6" / and 5' 3" ... and (to the best of my knowledge) never had any major line in 4' 8½"!

Both states were peopled from the common British stock of the day ... both were governed by the same British Military clique ... and the railways look entirely different!

Things are never that simple!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:22 AM

Spaw - confessing your sercret passion for railways raises you in my esteem.

Steve - Concur - "A Transatlanic Tinnel, Hoorah !" was written by Harry Harrison. And I can recomend it as a superb bit of toungue in cheek "What If ???" Fiction - Also recomended for his 'Cameo' descriptions of real people in a fictional circumstances.

But more seriously folks - Brunel's vision did not include a fully Nation wide network. The Taff Vale Railway ( Cosher Bailey's Line ) was engineered by Brunel and built to 4 foot 8.5 Inches. Reason ? the curves and land needed to run down the Tave Vale from Merthyr to Cardiff made the 7 foot gauge impractical.

Again in Wales many local lines used different gauges - mainly narrower than 4' 8.5" - Fortunately many survive as museam/heritage places.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 10:05 AM

Gareth, my passion for railroading isn't really a secret(:<)).....My Dad spent his entire working life on the railroad. He worked on a section gang for 3 years and went into engine service in 1940 as a fireman on the Pennsylvania RailRoad. During WWII he was in the 719th Railway Battalion in North Africa and Italy. He was "setup running" (made engineer) in 1950 and had enough seniority to hold a regular slot on the board as an engineer in 1955. He always ran freight which he preferred and actually paid better but I grew up never knowing when he'd be home. He'd be gone about a day and a half and home for two. But if the board picked up or slowed down it changed. It drove my Mom nuts never being able to plan anything too far in advance.

He (and I) grew up in a railroad town where the Pennsy had had huge yard facilities back in the 20's but by the time I came along it was pretty well gone. But I still loved going over to the little used roundhouse and turntable and just watching. Pennsy had brought in diesels pretty early, but the PanHandle Division still had some steamers (K4's and M1's running freight in the early 50's. Gawd they were something to a small child! The M1 was a huge locomotive and as it simply sat there snorting and whooshing it was as if the thing was alive. But as a kid I was into the "modern" things that came with the postwar/50's period, so I loved the diesels back then.

We had a Lionel train set that got added to every Christmas and I would spend the months before going through the Lionel catalog every night and trying to choose what I wanted Santa to bring most. Dad and I would set the layout up in October and take it down in March every year. We never did much for scenery but we had a lot of track, engines, and rolling stock! It eventually covered 4 4x8 sheets of plywood.

He died in 1973 and while he was ill we made a trip to the yards to pick up some things out of his locker. He was very weak but insisted on climbing aboard an engine that was in the roundhouse. He was 54 years old and had always talked about the glorious day he would retire and he'd had it figured that by compounding vacation times and things, he could retire almost 5 months before his 62nd birthday. But I knew that was just talk. He was a railroader through and through and if he had made 62 he'd have been sitting at the roundhouse hoping for a final run! When we were in the cab of that engine, it is probably one of the most touching and vivid memories for me of him sitting there "on the box" and turning to me and saying, "I'd like to have made just one more run."

I wish he'd made a lot more.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 May 02 - 05:25 PM

'course if you rearrange all the letters of brunel's name:

'isambard kingdom brunel', you can get

'man making rubber dildoes'

Subject: RE: BS: We've always done it that way.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 02 - 05:35 PM

Actually reading that urban legend stomping thread, it appears that in this case the legend is essentially correct. Except that it's not the design of the Roman Chariot that is the determining factor, but the design of the horses pulling it, which gets you even further back into prehistory.

Subject: Model trains at Christmas
From: SharonA
Date: 13 May 02 - 06:00 PM

Catspaw: Thanks for that vignette of your father, and for sparking memories of the Christmas train set. For my father and my brothers, it was American Flyer trains (remember them?) The ritual for putting up the layout was much the same: take down the antique bed in the spare bedroom after Thanksgiving and put up the green-painted plywood table that took up most of the bedroom, and leave it up till late January or so. My father was quite the handyman in his more-able days; he built the table, and for one end of the table built a two-level tunnel through a "mountain" with ramps up to the second level. Aside from that it was all tracks, engines and railroad cars, except for a few free-standing trees and a building or three.

I remember a lighted station building that had a tiny record inside it that would play engine sounds and a conductor's voice. I also recall a platform that would move "people" (figures) along its length by vibration. Of course, I (the baby sister) was restricted to watching the setup run, for the most part, or once in a while to operating a train with LOTS of supervision!

Sure wish my brother would take those trains out of storage and set them up at his place, but I can only imagine how much work it would be to get the engines to run again. I don't suppose the parts would be easy to come by, these days.