BS: War crimes - continuing discussion

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 03:36 PM

If not downright impossible.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: GUEST,NH Dave
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 05:11 PM

In answer to Troll's question

The USA has had a policy of returning captured territory that goes back to the 19th Century.

We "captured" and returned to self government both Cuba and the Phillipines after the Spanish American War, and after some period of US governorship.

During WWI all of our fighting was done in France, so the matter is moot for this war.

In WWII we captured many of the Pacific Islands including Guam, Okinawa, and Japan, and all but Guam have reverted back to their original, but no longer war-like, governments/self rule. Guam remains a US protectorate, but could become its own country if they chose.

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: GUEST,Pancho Villa
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 05:37 PM

NH Dave tells good American lies.

The examples he cites, unlike Israel and the Palestinian territories, are not contiguous to the USA.

Let me know when the USA is going to return Texas, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and California; all conquered from Mexico.

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 05:42 PM

Hey Pancho! Had you been a better shot, you might have been able to get Arizona back yourself! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 08:22 PM

Well, Pancho was a pretty good shot, but he had to deal with Zapata, Carranza, Obregon, and the Federales too. Too many opponents can wear a bandido down after awhile. Personally, I always liked Zapata the best of the lot. The man was absolutely extraordinary.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: Troll
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 11:40 PM

As a matter of fact. NH Dave, the US did not return Cuba and the Philippines to their original owner, Spain, so that example won't do. We never captured Japans main islands, only Okinawa which was returned by treaty. The Pacific Islands which we captured on the way north to Japan were, by and large, owned by our allies and had been occupied by the Japanese, so, while we "gave them back", in reality we had only liberated them for their former owners, our allies.
Little Hawk, when the Palestinians rant about driving the unbelievers from sacred Arab land and of how they are willing to die as martyrs for Islam and they name one of their terrorist groups for the El Aqsa Mosque, then it is -to me at least- a little bizarre to see them do something that is so much against the religion they claim to defend.
You cannot excuse barbaric behavior simply because there has been a breakdown of law and order. The fact that it could happen anywhere still does not make it ok.
It is my opinion that the suspected collaborators were murdered so the people who did it could feel that they were still in charge of something and still capable of striking a blow at their enemies. And there weren't just a few of them, there was a mob -as I recall- of several hundred people. That is a reasonably large sample on which to base an assumption. What I reported was a verifiable fact, based on an actual event,and the context of my reporting it was in answer to heresay stories of Israeli torture (which, if true, I deplore). It was not made to promote a "negative stereotype", it was to report a true,verifiable event to be used as a counter to a heresay story.
If you did not post the links on the Israeli torture stories to give negative impressions of the Israelis, Carol, why DID you post them?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:02 AM

troll, you say that you think the Israeli government is as guilty as the Palestinians in what's going on in the middle east, and yet in every case, when someone has brought up a criticism of the Israeli government or military, you have come up with an excuse, reason, or denial, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. But every single time someone tries to show the human side of the Palestinians, you find a way to de-humanize them again.

It's like you've got two different types of score card that you're using for the two groups. The score card for the Palestinians only has places for negative marks, and the score card for the Israelis only has places for positive marks. Please tell me in what way this is not a double standard.

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: DougR
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:04 AM

Opinions and Questions to ponder, troll.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:08 AM

troll - Well, yeah...I certainly wasn't excusing it...just indicating that it is something that often happens when law and order breaks down. I would be the first to agree with you that the statements of fanatical Muslim extremists are quite repugnant, as are the statements of fanatical Israeli, Serbian, or Kosovar extremists, likewise. I would not wish to be within easy reach of any of them, if they considered me their enemy.

You said: "It is my opinion that the suspected collaborators were murdered so the people who did it could feel that they were still in charge of something and still capable of striking a blow at their enemies."

Exactly right. I couldn't agree more. That's why some of them become suicide bombers too, and it's why many Japanese pilots volunteered for kamikaze missions in '44 and '45. That...and sheer pride and a sense of duty in the face of defeat, impotence, and catastrophe. Some American pilots made suicide dives on ships in damaged planes too during World War II...it was their one last attempt to show they could still strike a blow at a hated enemy, and still exert some control over the situation.

I think Carol feels she is simply evening up the odds in the media propaganda war...which she thinks has been unfairly tilted against Arabs and Palestinians.

Whether someone else agrees with that depends more on his or her acquired prejudices than on any particular set of facts.

People are naturally attracted to facts that support their chosen position. For example: I disagree with almost every opinion expressed by the Toronto Sun about anything, because it's very right-wing and very lacking in "class". It's a truly vulgar rag with very slim content and a ton of advertising. Accordingly, I seldom read the Sun, and I look upon it with contempt. I like the Toronto Star...so I often read it. This is typical. People are just naturally more inclined to seek out info they already agree with, and to ignore, reject or discount info they don't already agree with.

It's entirely possible that some valuable info WILL surface in the Sun, and I will miss it, because I basically don't think the Sun is worth reading. We are all like this. It's human nature.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:19 AM

If you did not post the links on the Israeli torture stories to give negative impressions of the Israelis, Carol, why DID you post them?

Sledge asked me to provide documentation for this post of mine...

I think the Israeli government would probably treat people who are informers for any entity with whom they are at war pretty harshly also. I'd bet they would first torture them, and then the informers would probably be either imprisoned or executed.

And yes, it was an attempt to level the playing field after what you and Sledge posted about what the Palestinians did. And if Wolfgang's post providing the torture link #4 and subsequent posts from others is any indication, leveling the playing field is viewed as a good thing to do.

And Little Hawk is right. I'm also quite dismayed with the one-sidedness of the way the media is handling this issue here in the US. And with the one-sidedness of the posts of you and some other people here. At least when I criticize the Israeli side of the equation, I'm criticizing the government and military. You're consistantly making the Palestinian people out to be sub-human.

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:34 AM

I think it is important to look at who the Palestinian people are that were of age in say, 1920 to 1940. What did they do? Were they by nature violent? My stereotype of them is the "humble peasant", which may or may not be accurate. But certainly many of them were farmers, either tenant or landowners of small holdings. They raised the famous Jaffa oranges; they had olive orchards that had been tended by their families for centuries. They had sheep and donkeys, just like in the Bible...The women were known for their needlework..I have not ever read anything that suggests that they were by nature warlike, aggressive, etc...now, some people/cultures are..no getting around it..but I don't think these people were. So you take these fairly passive, and probably gentle people, take their land, legally or quasilegally or just take it, drive them literally into the sea (is that where that expression came from?) in Haifa and Jaffa, rape the women, which is one of the main reasons they said they fled, and crowd them into leaky tents in a bitter cold and wet desert (or hot and dry)...eventually move them into camps with bad sewage problems...these are not city people...it's like when the Irish were forced by cruel fate out of Ireland and into New York tenements...bad behavior ensued...that I don't think was innate to the Irish character..who knows..it might be...anyway, that is my stereotype in a nutshell.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: Troll
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:44 AM

And where is your scorecard Carol? The one with the positive marks for the Israelis. Before you accuse me or anyone else of using a double standard, you had better make very, very sure that you are not guilty of the very thing you are so quick to accuse others of.
The Palestinians do not need another cheerleader or apologist, at least not on this forum. You seem to me to portray the image of the Plaestinians as beleaguered but noble withall and the Israelis as the bully who is beating up on the little guy for no reason other than because he can.
Everything that I post as fact can be verified from several independent sources and I try to stay away from the "tearjerker" stories since I find that they serve little purpose other than to demonize one side or the other and to polarize the discussion group.
Perhaps you feel that the Palestinians need better PR since most people in this country are not aware of some of the basic problems they face. Fine. The only problem is that you build them up by tearing the other side down and then complain when someone says "Yeah, but they do it too."
Is it your contention that no one should be allowed to criticize the Palestinians because they're having a rough time right now? You post links to stories that are mostly heart rendering accounts of how some individual soldier(s) killed a palestinian and then get all bent out of shape when someone counters with a story of a 5-year-old child shot while lieing in her bed, asleep. Your story is meant to show the "human side" of the Palestinians but mine is to foster haterd, negative stereotypes and "de-humanize" them.
..."when someone has brought up a criticism of the Israeli government or military, you have come up with an excuse, reason, or denial, even in the face of overwhelming evidence."
Please cite some of these ocassions and if your "overwhelming evidence" is something like Amnesty Internationals clain that they had evidence of war crimes in Jenin, don't bother. Until the evidence has been presented for all to see, it's heresay.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:45 AM

Thank you, mg, for letting some fresh air into the room.

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:49 AM

troll, I have made several posts in which I have stated my support of Israelis. Just check out my posting history. Yossi Beilin, Neta Golan, Yitzhak Rabin, Amos Oz, and the conscientious objectors currently being held Israeli prisons. They just don't happen to be Israelis with whom you agree.

Now, show me where you have said anything in support of Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:54 AM

I looked up Jaffa oranges under google. Here is a little story..first one I found.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story153.html

I worked for a Palestinian professor at the U.W...(it was a long time ago and I doubt he would remember me). I didn't realize until a few days ago that he had lost an orange orchard. If we Irish are still mourning the loss of a quarter acre of moldy potatoes our ancestors had, how much fresher is this?

His name is Farhat Ziadeh. If anyone is in the Seattle area, there is an inaugural lecture at the University of Washington (I think...) on April 30..Tuesday. It is about poetry or something..but there is going to be a series of lectures in his name. I believe he has established a foundation. You can find more information doing a google search under his name and lecture I presume..or I will post it later...

mg

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:55 AM

Oh yeah, and that Israeli guy who married a Palestinian woman and went to live in a town in the Palestinian occupied territories. Can't remember his name just now. Now that was a person who was willing to put his principles into practice in real life.

And I've posted plenty of evidence that comes from many sources, including people from all over the world, and even some Israeli Jews themselves. But you won't eccept anything that doesn't come directly from Ariel Sharon himself. So I'm not about to repeat the excercize.

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 01:08 AM

One last thing. I repeat what I said on the Peace in the middle east thread. I have never, not once, posted any criticisms gratuitously about Israel. In every single case, if I have posted a criticism of any aspect of Israel, it has been in response to something someone has posted that I felt put an unfair burden of blame on the Palestinians. I have not once posted anything to build the Palestinians up by tearing the Israelis down.

What I have been doing is responding to people who are building Israel up by tearing the Palestinians down. And if you think you can find any posts of mine in which I have done what you accuse me of doing, you show them to me, and I will show you the posts preceding them that I was responding to.

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: Troll
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 01:11 AM

To the best of my knowledge, I have, to date said nothing in support of the Palestinians. I do not support them. The Israelis whom you mention are either dead, anti-war or peace activists, or political enemies of the present government. In short, they support your POV. I do not think that they can qualify as ordinary Israelis.
To the best of my knowledge, many of the CO's in jail in Israel right now are there because they have refused military service and they were there before this whole recent round of violence started. Israel,as you may know, has universal service. Refuse service, go to jail.
Understand, I have nothing against peace activists or conscientious objectors. I have a good friend who was a CO during Viet Nam and did alternative service. But to use those people from the "other side" who agree with your stance to try to prove how even-handed you are is laughable at best and a little insulting as well.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 01:27 AM

In short, they support your POV. I do not think that they can qualify as ordinary Israelis.

Oohhh!!! What a giveaway!!! Thank you for that one, troll! I couldn't have asked for a better one!

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 01:30 AM

Well, like I said, it all depends on whether you think one side in this conflict is "the good guys". I don't. But I do think that all people are essentially more good than bad in their original true nature. Trouble is, their original nature is under a constant barrage from outside, and they don't react well to that. It brings out the worst in most of them.

I think that the Sharon government is carrying out a mistaken policy of regional aggression that is not in the true interests of Israelis. Sharon thinks otherwise. That's his privilege.

If I were an Israeli, I would be assisting his political opponents, looking for ways to achieve peace, and hoping for a change in government ASAP. The guy who killed Rabin must be the happiest man in Israel...he's gotten exactly what he wanted. Violence on a small scale has produced violence on a grand scale.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 01:31 AM

I guess my mother didn't qualify as an ordinary American when she was a civil rights worker here in the US in the '60s either. So I suppose the fact that I gravitate to extraordinary Israelis is something I come by naturally.

(Ohh!! What a giveaway!)

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 02:30 AM

But to use those people from the "other side" who agree with your stance to try to prove how even-handed you are is laughable at best and a little insulting as well.

I'm not using those people on the other side because they agree with my stance. Those are the people who shaped my stance! troll, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 05:12 AM

Trying to explain something is not the same as seeking to excuse it.

That seems a remarkably easy concept to understand, but people who are quite clearly capable of understanding much more difficult ideas genuinely seem to have real difficulty with it. And that difficulty is something I really find difficult to understand

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: Troll
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 08:08 AM

That dog won't hunt. You were already acting as a PR agent for the Palestinians when you started quoting some of the people you mentioned, Yossi Bielin in particular.
In fact, I seem to recall a post wherein you said that you saw him on TV and that, "he's a cutie." Although, in all fairness, I know that you wouldn't support Arafat because of his good looks.
It is also indicative of prior bias to note that the "extraordinary Israelis" that you are attracted to are all from one end of the political spectrum. You don't seem to have any affinity for those who think that Sharon hasn't gone far enough and that all the Arabs should be expelled from "the river to the sea."
Most Israelis do not agree with that stance but neither are they in favor of appeasment. What a shame that you seem to feel that the ideas of ordinary Israelis are unworthy of your consideration: that only those ideas that parallel your own are valid. I'm quite sure that Bielin and Co. didn't have to do much shaping to solidify your stance.
Kevin, I agree with you 100%.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: Troll
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 08:29 AM

Looking over the posts of the last couple of days, it appears that only four or five of us have been posting more than once and we seem to be beating a dead horse.As none of us are lokely to change our minds, I suggest that we let it die a natural death,
Accordingly, this will probably be my final post on this subject. We seem to be moving into places that I don't really care to go but I find myself inexorably drawn there as the discussion progresses (or regresses).
So i'm outta here. See you 'round the Forum.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 10:33 AM

Imagine that in the days of apartheid someone had been criticised for being anti-Afrikaner, and they had responded by giving examples of Afrikaners who were opposed to apartheid, whom they admired.

And then the person they'd been arguing with came back saying that Afrikaners who were opposed to apartheid didn't count, since most Afrikaners supported the apartheid system, and that, unless they could come up with examples of advocates of apartheid whom they admired, they must clearly be biased against Afrikaner.

Well, I'd feel there was something wrong with that argument.

And one reason that example came to mind is this article, in today's Guardian by Archbishop Tutu of South Africa - here's a taster:

"Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured.

The military action of recent days, I predict with certainty, will not provide the security and peace Israelis want; it will only intensify the hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: DougR
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 03:55 PM

I, for one, do not question Tutu's right to an opinion. I agree with troll, though. I think we are beating a dead horse in this thread.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 04:14 PM

Well, Mudcatters who don't get the Guardian or the Church Times probably wouldn't have had the chance to read the Archbishop's article otherwise. That makes this a worthwhile thread in itself. And here's another quote from it, and another blue clicky to it as well.

"If our madness could end as it did, it must be possible to do the same everywhere else in the world. If peace could come to South Africa, surely it can come to the Holy Land?"

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 05:20 PM

troll, I never thought I would be saying something like this, but I have to say, respectfully, that you are full of shit.

I didn't even have a stance on this issue until a few weeks ago. I didn't even know much of anything about it until a few weeks ago. In fact, troll, if you research my posting history a little more carefully, you'll find that in the beginning, mostly all I did was ask questions rather than state opinions. And it was in doing the research I have in the past few weeks, much of which I have posted to the Mudcat, that I came to the stance that I have.

I didn't support segregation in the United States when that was the system we had here. That didn't mean I was against white Americans. I was against apartheid in South Africa (did you support apartheid in South Africa, troll?), and that didn't mean I was against white South Africans. There is absolutely no reason on earth why I should have to support apartheid in Israel. And the fact that I am against it doesn't mean I'm against Israeli Jews. Give it up. It's a losing proposition. Trying to demonize me because I disagree with you, the way you're demonizing the Palestinians, just isn't going to work.

And I don't think it's a dead horse as long as apartheid is still in effect in Israel, and people in the the US and Israel are accepting it without question (and blaming it on the Palestinians).

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 05:22 PM

(btw. when you call me a PR agent for the Palestinians, somehow it comes across as sounding like "nigger lover".)

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 11:27 PM

When my mother was involved in the civil rights movement, back when we had segregation here in the US, she had some difficult decisions to face.

We lived one house away from the beach. There were no black families living in any of the neighborhoods that had beaches. There was no parking allowed in the street, so only people who lived withing walking distance from the beach could use it.

My mother used to invite her black friends to park in our driveway so they could use our beach. She was concerned that they might be hassled by people who didn't know why they were there. So she would stand on the front porch talking with them for a while so everyone could see who had invited them.

I reckon my mother knew she stood to lose some friends because of that. Maybe the thought of it made her sad. I don't know because she never said. But when she had to make a choice between her conscience and her friends, she chose her conscience.

I know that my position on what's going on in Israel has the potential to cost me some friends, both Jewish and non Jewish. The thought of that makes me sad. But when it boils down to a choice between my conscience and my friends, I'm sorry, but I have to go with my conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 12:03 AM

As you should, Carol. I consider you one of the world's least likely candidates for being guilty of anti-semitism, but that won't stop people from accusing you of it. There is a lot of fear out there, and fear does not encourage rationality or even-handedness. It also shuts up a lot of people who secretly agree with you, because they are genuinely afraid to speak out about it. I wouldn't doubt that a few of them are Jews too...not many, but a few. Remember how the black community treated Christopher Darden (a black man) when he dared to prosecute O.J. Simpson? When he dared to suggest that massive forensic and circumstantial evidence was more important than race?

The toughest thing of all is to see beyond the usual viewpoints of one's one peer group or cultural or political group, and most people are virtually incapable of doing so. Which is to say...most people are unconscious bigots. They mean well, they think of themselves as believing in freedom, peace, and justice for all, but they are still bigots.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: DougR
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 01:06 AM

My my, L.H., if I didn't know better, I might think you are a pessimist! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War crimes - continuing discussion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 01:16 PM

Yeah, Doug, I'm a very cautious optimist.

- LH